BUFFYVERSE

Missing Slayer

POSTED BY: SPIKESPIEGEL
UPDATED: Friday, August 27, 2004 03:34
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 10163
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Thursday, January 29, 2004 8:19 AM

SPIKESPIEGEL


(There is a mild spoiler to the 1/28/04 "Angel" ep, "Damage," below. A spoiler that was revealed in the TV commercials, so ... eh ... but fair warning.)

Follow me here ...

Buffy briefly died in season 1, which caused Kendra to become a slayer.

When Kendra died, even though there was already a slayer in Buffy, Faith was called. So whenever a slayer dies, even if there's another active slayer, the fallen one is replaced.

Buffy died at the end of season five, and was dead all summer. So why was no new slayer called? When all the potentials were being killed, from the start of Season 7, there was no mention of any full slayer out there. I can't believe that the Watcher's Council didn't know where this new slayer was.

Since Season 7 ended as it did, Joss could now say that the new slayer died off camera from The First's minions. Or she was in the middle of some rainforest and never made it to Sunnydale, and now apparently there's hundreds of slayers, so identifying this one isn't important.

But still, esp. since they intro'd a new slayer in the 1/28 episode of Angel ("Damage") and could've made her that replacement, I think they just ignored/forgot their own mythology.

Anyone?



"Bang."

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Thursday, January 29, 2004 8:36 AM

HELLSANGEL


I have always wondered the exact same thing, and throughout the whole of season 7, i thought they might reveal that maybe Kennedy was the other slayer. Maybe as buffy died a very unusual death (mystical thingy) then it meant no more slayer?

Still, a very big boo-boo for Joss! Very disappointing and bad continuation.

Still love the show tho!

xxx



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Thursday, January 29, 2004 8:49 AM

HONORBOUND


I always reasoned it out like this...

Buffy died and Kendra was called.
Kendra died and Faith was called.
Now the chain of slayers is just waiting for Faith to die to call the next one.

When Buffy died a SECOND time, she was already out of the chain and thus the slayer to be called at the time of her demise was already done. So she wouldn't be calling any new slayers to the cause. (Otherwise, if her death would keep calling Slayers, I can't imagine why the watchers council in thier supreme wickedness wouldn't just tie a slayer up and "kill" her repeatedly and revive her to make thier own personal Slayer Army.)

Of course, with all of the potential slayers called to action now anyway, it doesn't matter anymore.



A kind word turneth away wrath, but not as well as superior firepower

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Thursday, January 29, 2004 8:57 AM

WERESPAZ


Quote:


Buffy died and Kendra was called.
Kendra died and Faith was called.
Now the chain of slayers is just waiting for Faith to die to call the next one.

When Buffy died a SECOND time, she was already out of the chain and thus the slayer to be called at the time of her demise was already done.



That's how I remember them explaining it just after her second death. I don't know which ep, but I seem to remember Xander asking about it and Giles saying how Buffy was now "out of the loop". So, they seem to stay pretty consistent in their mythology.

-The SpAz

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Thursday, January 29, 2004 9:05 AM

SPIKESPIEGEL


Well, Honorbound's explanation works well for me. It's as if Buffy only had one "heritage" to bequeath, and it went to Kendra, then to Faith. That would mean, prior to this dumb world of A Thousand Slayers, that Faith was more the chosen ONE, more important or entitled to BE the Slayer, than Buffy.

If Spaz is right and this WAS briefly dismissed as an issue on Buffy, then I'm wrong to have criticized the "oversight."

Anyone want to put this to bed by citing/quoting the specific ep Spaz alludes to?

(and thanks to all for either giving me a "No Prize" explanation or pointing me to the overlooked episode.)



"Bang."

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Thursday, January 29, 2004 9:39 AM

KURUKAMI


An additional explanation I saw was that since Dawn was created from Buffy's blood, the overarching spell which activated when a slayer was killed looked around, saw "Buffy" in Dawn's blood, and didn't activate the next one because clearly Faith was still alive and "Buffy" was still alive.

That was on an alternate script at http://buffy.nu/article.php3?id_article=731, admittedly, but the concept's still viable. (Do a search for "and Dawn" on that page.)

History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it merely shouts "Weren't you listening the first time?!?" and lets fly with a club.

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Thursday, January 29, 2004 1:45 PM

ANGELDOVE


Quote:

That's how I remember them explaining it just after her second death. I don't know which ep, but I seem to remember Xander asking about it and Giles saying how Buffy was now "out of the loop". So, they seem to stay pretty consistent in their mythology.


I also always thought that it was explained in this way, but I just spent two hours looking through scripts and am unable to locate where this explanation took place, I also feel that at some point Buffy said to Giles something about how being alive again didn't solve anything as a new slayer would have been called. But I can't locate that either. But I did locate the following which is a contridiction to all the above which I cannot locate:

Showtime, 7.11

RONA
Excuse the newness of me, but, just
so I understand... If Buffy dies...
EVE
Well, when Buffy dies... I mean,
nobody lives forever, right?
RONA
One of us...
EVE
Gets activated, uh huh.
MOLLY
I prefer "called."
EVE
Whatever. You become the Slayer.
With the weight of the world on your
shoulders. The future of the whole
human race in your hands.

Potentials, 7.12

BUFFY:
My death is what could make you a
Slayer.


XANDER
Wow, she's...
(to Dawn)
You're a Potential. You could be the
next Slayer.

DAWN:
She (Buffy) has to die. I mean, if I ever
was the Slayer it would mean she died.



But then you also have to consider that the First was said to only be able to take the form of dead people, and it took the form of Buffy, which I figured was because she had died and was therefor different in some way, thus making me accept the whole idea that when Buffy died the second time it didn't count because she had died once before.

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Thursday, January 29, 2004 2:05 PM

SPIKESPIEGEL


Angeldove, I started this silly thread and you put two hours of your life into it? Many thanks. Says a lot that you couldn't confirm any official explanation for the "missing slayer" issue.

Looking at your quotes, I'd say that the first time, it's uneductated potentials speaking, so they could've been incorrect. And when it's Dawn, well, she doesn't know everything, either.

However, when Buffy says her death would create a slayer, well, there you have it. And I also believe it's never been stated that her Death at the end of season 5 was in any way NOT a true really-dead death. Esp. since her first death was all of ten seconds of heart failure, which, if you're talking gradations of death, ain't much.

More than ever, I become convinced that someone in Jossville dropped the ball on this one.



"Bang."

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Thursday, January 29, 2004 2:05 PM

HONORBOUND


Quote:

Originally posted by Angeldove:

Showtime, 7.11

RONA
Excuse the newness of me, but, just
so I understand... If Buffy dies...
EVE
Well, when Buffy dies... I mean,
nobody lives forever, right?
RONA
One of us...
EVE
Gets activated, uh huh.
MOLLY
I prefer "called."
EVE
Whatever. You become the Slayer.
With the weight of the world on your
shoulders. The future of the whole
human race in your hands.

Potentials, 7.12

BUFFY:
My death is what could make you a
Slayer.


XANDER
Wow, she's...
(to Dawn)
You're a Potential. You could be the
next Slayer.

DAWN:
She (Buffy) has to die. I mean, if I ever
was the Slayer it would mean she died.






The part with the new potentials talking could just be their ignorance to the fact that Buffy did die before. How much background were they told. If noone ever told them that Buffy had died before (let alone twice) they could just be going with the commonly known general mythology of one slayer dies and the next is called. Remember, they don't know Faith at this time yet either.

And you could even chalk up Xander and Dawn's conversation to ignorance and not a full understanding of the "calling" rules.



A kind word turneth away wrath, but not as well as superior firepower

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Thursday, January 29, 2004 2:23 PM

SHADESIREN


Um, don't forget that as of the last episode of Buffy, EVERY potential is now a full-fledged Slayer, so the slayer on the episode of angel (that I haven't seen yet) is easily explained away. She was a potential, now she IS a slayer.


Plus, Joss has explained that yes, it IS a chain - you go from link to link - if you repair a broken link (bring a slyer back) then they are no longer part of the chain - once a link is broken, it's thrown away, if you fix it and don't throw it away, it's not put back on the chain, it's just not gone. I think explains what I read in an interview with Joss once.

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Thursday, January 29, 2004 2:47 PM

ANGELDOVE


SpikeSpiegel,
Yeah I totally agree with you about the potential slayers not necessarily knowing the whole story, I definatly considered that when I read it. And even when Buffy says it I thought maybe she didn't have all the info either, so I was really hoping to locate a Giles explanation as I figure he would be the only one who would know for sure. As for the two hours, I was just avoiding work stuff, pathetic isn't it. But I actually had been wondering about this since FX just starting showing season 5 again and I was waiting for the explanation that still hasn't been offered. We have all noticed small inconsistancies throughout the series, so I guess it seems to reason this is just another one.


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Thursday, January 29, 2004 2:59 PM

SPIKESPIEGEL


Well, some kind posters are saying Joss has said that Buffy is out of the heritage continuity because she died once. Love to see an official citation, to make sure. But if so, the writers have allowed at least three conversations, including one from Buffy herself, that says she IS still in the chain.

Joss' comments fly in the face of what was written on his show, that's bad. If you write characters saying incorrect things, that we can't know are wrong, because the characters are misinformed or ignorant, and you never on the show set the facts straight by having the truth laid out, you've needlessly misled many a viewer. Essentially, all the viewers who didn't trawl the web hunting for Joss comments.

Man, I've been bashing the writers in terms of mythmaking/canon-keeping today. Love the shows, but wish someone on-staff had been taking better notes.


"Bang."

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Friday, January 30, 2004 12:30 AM

DRAKON


Quote:

Originally posted by SpikeSpiegel:
But still, esp. since they intro'd a new slayer in the 1/28 episode of Angel ("Damage") and could've made her that replacement, I think they just ignored/forgot their own mythology.

Anyone?



Okay, my take, for what it is worth.
When Buffy died the first time, she was no longer "The" Slayer. Since she was no longer "The Slayer, then we have to wait for Faith to die out before another could have taken the post.

But now with all potentials becoming slayers.. its a moot point. But I am curious if new potentials crop up every once in a while.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

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Friday, January 30, 2004 1:11 AM

ALFERDPACKER


Canon is that the Slayer line passes on from Faith. I can't quote you an episode or a specific interview but Joss and other writers have said this.

As far as the potentials and Buffy in Season 7 go, sometimes the characters don't know everything. Despite Buffy being treated as the Slayer throughout the series, Kendra and Faith were the true Slayers.

The Watcher's Council continued to deal with Buffy because Faith went rougue. Buffy was still controllable so it wasn't an issue.

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Friday, January 30, 2004 7:22 AM

JUSTDAVID


Quote:

Originally posted by AlferdPacker:
...sometimes the characters don't know everything....

This is exactly how I see it. The entire thing about there being two slayers is completely new territory, and it makes sense to me that the folks in Sunnydale would be confused as to what the new rules would be.
This was one of several things that were never completely explained by the writers, and I'm just fine with that.

Haken needs a new development system for fireflyfans.net, please donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283

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Tuesday, February 3, 2004 2:44 PM

SPIKESPIEGEL


Quote:

Originally posted by JustDavid:
This was one of several things that were never completely explained by the writers, and I'm just fine with that.



I'm okay with stuff that goes unexplained, sometimes, but this thread quotes several instances in which (possibly misinformed) characters, including Buffy herself, contradict this idea that the Kendra-Faith line is the only true lineage.

I'm willing to accept that idea, esp. if Joss/the writers have said this in interviews (no links have turned up here yet, though), but to not explain that something is A when you've repeatedly had characters say it's B, is a fuckup any way you look at it.

Well, any way I look at it ...



"Bang."

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 1:56 AM

LITWOLF689


Quote:

Originally posted by SpikeSpiegel:


Buffy died at the end of season five, and was dead all summer. So why was no new slayer called? When all the potentials were being killed, from the start of Season 7, there was no mention of any full slayer out there. I can't believe that the Watcher's Council didn't know where this new slayer was.

"Bang."



Okay, When Kendra died, Faith was called. Faith was now the 'new' slayer. Buffy was the 'old' slayer. The new line of slayers would start from when Faith died, and she never did.

There were no new slayers being killed off, only the potentails (sp?) who had not been called yet.

The reason Dana had slayer power was because, in 7th season, Buffy needed help against the First so she had Willow give the slayer power to the other potentials.

Understand?

^-^

Litwolf689

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 11:19 AM

SPIKESPIEGEL


Sure, Litwolf, I understand. All that's already been said in this thread. It's gotten down now to saying that because this logic has only appeared, apparently, in interviews with the creators, that it's bloody bad writing to have not only never explained this on the show, but to have had, as quoted above, put more than one mislead on the topic into Season Seven scripts.

I'm all for occasionally NOT explaining everything, and I do understand things when I read them in a thread three or four times, thanks. But since my original question was answered (said answer being from unspecified interviews), I've not been arguing the story logic, but the failure of the writers to put that logic into the actual show.




"Bang."

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 12:12 PM

LITWOLF689


Sorry, sometimes I just like to repeat what has been said.

But that is true, the creators of Buffy and Angel sometimes forget to add logic into the episodes.

Here's a part I noticed that shows that the episode writers are just stupid: Did you ever see, in the 7th or 6th season, the episode where Spike's chip really hurts him. He tell Buffy that there are some medications that the Initiative gave him to stop the pain. We saw almost his whole time in the Initiative cell and they never once gave him anything to stop the pain. That is a good example of the writers being stupid.

Sorry I repeated what has already been said.

^-^

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 2:01 PM

SPIKESPIEGEL


You're not teasing me, are you?

Spike was in the Initiative cell for days, wasn't he? The scenes we saw were mere minutes. The initiative could've done lots to him in that time.

But still ... I don't recall that meds comment, but it strikes me as stupid. The chip was meant to hurt, and the initiative wasn't about helping "subterrestrials" feel better. They should've just killed Spike (logically, I mean -- I loved him on the show).

Then again, the fact that Buffy or a Scooby didn't stake spike in season 4 or 5, despite repeated misbehaviors, and despite him being an unrepentent serial killer looking for a way to resume his career, is just insanely stupid. Been watching Season 5, and up until Spike withstands torture to protect Dawn, there's no reason to have mercy on him. He comes in useful as muscle, but at other times, there are SO many reasons to stake him, that it always rang false that he survived.

One of the first signs of "Buffy" declining was the way the writers struggled, struggled, struggled to keep Spike around, 'cause he was so great, despite it defying almost all story logic.



"Bang."

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 2:30 PM

LITWOLF689


Watching the old seasons on DVD has made me think the same thing: Why dont they just stake Spike?

Like you said, aside from being kinda handy in a fight and some comedy relief, he has no reason to be around. In fact, when he first got the chip in, he would tell anyone anything they wanted to know about the Scooby gang if Spike thought they had even the smallest chance of taking out Buffy.

I think the only reason Buffy did not stake him was because later, he would do almost anything to protect Dawn and... well thats about it. Oh! And because Buffy wanted to have sex with him to make her feel alive... which is kinda sad.

By the way, I was not teasing you and Im sorry if you thought I was.

Is anyone going to stay up and watch the new Angel tonight? I sure am!!!

^-^

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 2:39 PM

KURUKAMI


Except, of course, what about the tainted blood that he was offered in that episode, that the other vamp next door warned him about? Would it be possible that the drug in said blood had some kind of memory inhibitor along with the don't-worry-be-happies that were also in there?

History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it merely shouts "Weren't you listening the first time?!?" and lets fly with a club.

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Tuesday, February 10, 2004 4:42 AM

KNIBBLET


Litwolf689 wrote:
Did you ever see, in the 7th or 6th season, the episode where Spike's chip really hurts him. He tell Buffy that there are some medications that the Initiative gave him to stop the pain. We saw almost his whole time in the Initiative cell and they never once gave him anything to stop the pain. That is a good example of the writers being stupid.


We also never saw Xander take Willow's Barbie doll when they were little. We just take for granted that if Willow said he did it (and we haven't been shown that Willow is a lying, conniving Fox executive), then well, Xander was the head of the international kindergarten barbie thief brigade.

There are always going to be inconsistencies in canon. Children, we aren't talking exact science here. You can divide the square root of a slayer by the circumference of a rosewood stake and have an absolute rule.

Slayer mythology would probably only be understood by a watcher who spent his/her entire life studying ancient dusty texts. Even then, some other wise apple watcher would publish a paper in "Watcher Monthly" disputing the claims and citing even more ancient dusty books bound in human flesh.

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Thursday, March 18, 2004 6:42 PM

TOMTBA2004


did anyone wacth the last episode, They called all the potentials unto slayers using the Red axe then every girl who might be a slayer will be a slayer. now they have to go around and find them and explain why they have this power, becuase some would use it for evil. which i thought would make a good spin off.

later...

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Monday, March 22, 2004 11:55 AM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES


Quote:

Originally posted by SpikeSpiegel:
Sure, Litwolf, I understand. All that's already been said in this thread. It's gotten down now to saying that because this logic has only appeared, apparently, in interviews with the creators, that it's bloody bad writing to have not only never explained this on the show, but to have had, as quoted above, put more than one mislead on the topic into Season Seven scripts.



Its in the show as I recall. Buffy dies, Kendra gets called. Kendra dies, Faith gets called. Buffy dies again and then comes back, and I seem to recall a chat in the Magic Box about the very issue. That probably narrows it down some, given it must involve Giles being there, and he wasn't in every episode. Anyone able to hit the nail on the head of this argument?

"I threw up on your bed"

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Tuesday, June 1, 2004 3:12 PM

SILVERCROSS


I may be completely off base here, but I heard (I think in SFX magazine) that the red head (looking like Sydney in Alias Pilot) running away from Bringers (second ep, I think, series 7) was the "slayer" after Buffy died the 2nd time, that's why she could run so fast for so long. May be completely wrong though...

Jayne: "Pain is scary" (serenity)

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Tuesday, June 1, 2004 5:47 PM

BIKISDAD


Quote:

Originally posted by Angeldove:

Showtime, 7.11

RONA
Excuse the newness of me, but, just
so I understand... If Buffy dies...
EVE
Well, when Buffy dies... I mean,
nobody lives forever, right?
RONA
One of us...
EVE
Gets activated, uh huh.
MOLLY
I prefer "called."
EVE
Whatever. You become the Slayer.
With the weight of the world on your
shoulders. The future of the whole
human race in your hands.

Potentials, 7.12

BUFFY:
My death is what could make you a
Slayer.


XANDER
Wow, she's...
(to Dawn)
You're a Potential. You could be the
next Slayer.

DAWN:
She (Buffy) has to die. I mean, if I ever
was the Slayer it would mean she died.


Don't forget that in the 7.11 conversation between the potentials, that the girl named "Eve" is actually the First Evil. He/She/It is deliberately trying to scare/confuse the real potentials by lying to them. So Eve saying that Buffy has to die to make one of them the new slayer doesn't mean anything.

In the next episode, when both Buffy and Dawn say something similar, that's more difficult to explain. The only thing I can think of is, at that point, the potentials don't know about Faith. Although I remember one of them saying something about a "rumour that there's another one (slayer) somewhere", they don't really know she exists and since, as far as Buffy knows, Faith is in jail for life, the Scoobies are pretending that she doesn't (exist). It's not until Faith actually shows up that they explain her origin to the potentials (Who, you'll remember, were totally confused by Faith's existence). So references by any of the Scooby Gang to Buffy having to die to create a new slayer, before Faith's appearance in "Bad Girls", were probably just meant to simplify things for the newbies.

That's my (admittedly weak) theory to explain the seeming inconsistancy in the conversations from episode 7.12. And, as I said before, the statements by Eve (the FE) in 7.11 were meant to deliberately mislead the potentials, so that is very easily explained.

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2004 7:17 PM

QUICKSAND


Quote:

Originally posted by Litwolf689:
We saw almost his whole time in the Initiative cell and they never once gave him anything to stop the pain. That is a good example of the writers being stupid.

Sorry I repeated what has already been said.

^-^



Hate to burst your bubble, but this is a good example of YOU bein' stupid. ;)

Spike was LYING... because he could hurt Buffy, and didn't want anyone to know that his chip was malfunctioning.... when in all actuality, it was Buffy that was malfunctioning. "A tan at the genetic level," as Tara referred to it. There was an entire episode (after Buffy found out Spike HAD BEEN LYING) where Buffy worried that Spike could hurt her because she was no longer human.

Tara put that fear to rest.... and thus, your arguement.

Sorry 'bout that.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2004 7:21 PM

QUICKSAND


This arguement is cute and all, but as someone DID post a few posts up (and was then ignored), they are ALL SLAYERS NOW. So the arguement becomes a MOOT POINT.

Besides.... You can't just kill a slayer over and over again. One death, one new slayer. That's how it seems to me, and whereas yes, the show never did SPECIFICALLY say that's how it worked, no slayer was called after Buffy, so we can assume.

And even if one WAS... the series ended on an ENTIRE PLOTLINE about how the Ways of the Watchers Council were completely idiotic, and from now on, any girl who is a potential slayer, will become one. As mentioned in passing on "Angel," Buffy, Willow, and the gang are all in different parts of the world now, training new slayers.

Sorry if you all missed that. But that's what happened.

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 5:58 AM

FFFAN1


Here's a partial response to the above, from episode 7x11. It doesn't really explain, but it does indicate that the whole slayer chain has become discombobulated. It certainly helps to explain why we never heard about another slayer...

Quote:


BELJOXA'S EYE
The mystical forces surrounding the chosen line have become irrevocably altered, become unstable, vulnerable.

ANYA
Something The First did?

BELJOXA'S EYE
The First Evil did not cause the disruption, only seized upon it to extinguish the lives of the chosen forever.

GILES
Then what has caused the disruption? What—what is responsible for letting this happen?


BELJOXA'S EYE
The slayer.



Later...
Quote:


ANYA
(limping) Yeah, I just—I don't understand how Buffy's death mucked up the whole slayer mojo. You know, it's not like she hasn't died before.

GILES
It's not because she died. The Beljoxa's Eye was quite clear about that in its enigmatic way. It's because she lives. Again. Buffy's not responsible for that.

ANYA
Oh. Oh. Willow and me and Xander and Tara. We're the ones who brought Buffy back. We're—we're the reason The First is here, the reason those girls were murdered. No, it's our fault. The would would've been better off if Buffy had just stayed dead. (walks off)






*************************************************
Mal... Bad... From the Latin.

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 7:12 AM

AMRCANPOET


Okay, it seems that everyone is arguing in a circle. Here's the problem as it stands:

1) The characters have stated in the 6th season that Buffy's second death does not instigate a calling of a slayer, since Faith is still the current slayer. This is what we were always led to believe.

2) In Season 7, though, Buffy along with others state that when Buffy dies, another slayer will be called. This is either false, or the previous assumption was false.

Either way, the writers messed up at some point. True, they could defend themselves and say, "Well, the minute the Watcher's Council gave up on Faith and allowed Buffy to return as a slayer, that put Buffy back into the loop." But, that would make no sense, as Buffy was "a slayer" before her second death, and no slayer was ever called.

The writers messed up, simple as that. I'll let that slide, but what I'm most concerned with is how this whol "every potential is a slayer" thing fits in with the FRAY mythology!!!

We learn in Fray that after Buffy's death no slayers were called. Well, what about all the other slayers that were already alive? Did they all die in that great war that "killed" (we don't know if she died in the battle or of old age) Buffy?

It's a mess, but excusable for their sheer audacity at attacking something as convoluted as this.

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 11:40 AM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES


Quote:

Originally posted by amrcanpoet:
Here's the problem as it stands:
1) The characters have stated in the 6th season that Buffy's second death does not instigate a calling of a slayer, since Faith is still the current slayer. This is what we were always led to believe.



To be honest, I'd have to watch back to see whether they left any wiggle room, but I think I recall something like that being said - at a guess Buffy got back into the loop with her trips to the First and so forth,

Quote:


We learn in Fray that after Buffy's death no slayers were called. Well, what about all the other slayers that were already alive? Did they all die in that great war that "killed" (we don't know if she died in the battle or of old age) Buffy?



Its like B5's Sinclair - he referred to himself as the last commander of the Babylon Station, and people pointed out Sheridan, who was a Captain. After Chosen no new replacement slayers were called - they either were slayers or weren't. Those Potentials who were still alive were in the same boat.

Alternatively, perhaps there was no need as the evil had been vanquished for a while.


"I threw up on your bed"

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 12:05 PM

LITWOLF689


Quote:

Originally posted by Quicksand:
Quote:

Originally posted by Litwolf689:
We saw almost his whole time in the Initiative cell and they never once gave him anything to stop the pain. That is a good example of the writers being stupid.

Sorry I repeated what has already been said.

^-^



Hate to burst your bubble, but this is a good example of YOU bein' stupid. ;)

Spike was LYING... because he could hurt Buffy, and didn't want anyone to know that his chip was malfunctioning.... when in all actuality, it was Buffy that was malfunctioning. "A tan at the genetic level," as Tara referred to it. There was an entire episode (after Buffy found out Spike HAD BEEN LYING) where Buffy worried that Spike could hurt her because she was no longer human.

Tara put that fear to rest.... and thus, your arguement.

Sorry 'bout that.



The rest of my post is down below.

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 12:06 PM

LITWOLF689


Okay, for some reason the post would not work so here is the rest of my post.

First off, I dont like that you called me stupid. Im not expecting an apology (sp?) but you should be nicer.

Second off, Im not talking about 6th season, Im talking about 7th season, with the "The Killer in Me" episode, where Willow turns into Warren. Tara is dead and they are battling the First, just to jog your memory.

Spike is in pain, not because he is killing people, but because his chip is broken. Here is a quote from a website I enjoy, called Television without Pity. They say the same thing:

Quote:

Cut to somewhere dark and outdoors. Buffy and Spike bumble along. They've both got flashlights because, while they can see in the dark, I can't. And while this show on occasion may make me wish for the sweet relief of blindness I'm not ready to turn in for The Buffy the Vampire Slayer Radio Hour. Spike asks Buffy if she's sure she "want[s] to go back to this place with me." "Eh," replies Buffy, "nothing good on TV tonight." This pun fails to hit "clever" and instead lands on "unfortunately apt." Psst, writers -- it's not really much of a joke if it's true. They swing their flashlights around for a while until they come to an unmarked place on the ground that looks much like all the other bits of ground. Must have been their blocking tape or whatever that told them where to start digging. Then Spike, for reasons I will never understand, starts spouting some bull about how they're after any surplus drugs the Initiative might have left behind. Spike knows about the existence of these drugs because, during his captivity, the soldiers would dose him to help him manage the residual chip pain from whenever he acted up. Let's just think about all the problems with this statement. First, the Initiative was never all that huggy-feely when it came to vampires and demons. I don't think the organization that wanted to vivisect Oz despite the fact that he was mostly human would be handing out Percocet to the soulless undead. Sure, they knocked the vamps out to experiment on them, but I can't believe that Buffy or Spike would consider being constantly unconscious a viable solution to Spike's problem. Secondly, we saw pretty much all of Spike's captivity. He woke up. He was disoriented. He talked to a vamp in the next cell, who told him about the scientific experiments. He escaped. Furthermore, he had NO IDEA that he had a chip put in his head until he was out of the Initiative. Otherwise, why would he be so darn surprised when he couldn't get his fangs up with Willow? If Drew Z. Greenberg was intent on resurrecting the Initiative (and let's remember what a rousing success that was the first time around), maybe he could have bothered to idly flip through the scripts from Season Four? This is more than a continuity hole; it's a continuity chasm, and it goes straight on down all the way to freakin' China. So.


Understand? See what Im trying to say? Do you get it now, are we on the same page? Good.

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 12:11 PM

AMRCANPOET


The continuity doesn't bug me. I've seen far worse continuity errors from a show I hold far dearer to me heart, "The X-Files."

Hell, that show had a weekly column about all its inconsistencies.

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 12:59 PM

QUICKSAND


Re: Beljoxa's Eye.

It was my understanding that the Slayer was screwing up the "Slayer Line" not because she had the audacity to live, but because she has the audacity to be a Bitch.

All the slayers previous to Buffy (and I'm just inferring, here) were nice little subservient slayers who honored the Code, honored their Watchers, and followed the tradition until such time as they were struck down.

Buffy was the first one to say: Screw you guys, I'm going home.

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 1:05 PM

QUICKSAND


Mm, yes. See, if you call people Stupid, Litwolf, then expect to get called Stupid, back. That's the way the world works. Sorry to burst your little bubble.

And speaking of bursting bubbles....

No. I don't know who wrote your cute little article, but his/her entire arguement about the Initiative falls flat, becase after season #4, THERE WAS NO MORE INITIATIVE. When we see them seasons later, they are no longer any kind of Initiative. The high-ranking government-types shut the whole program down... the people who show up to remove/repair Spike's chip are just Army Guys. Army Guys, by the way, who are under Riley's command, and will do what he says no matter what-- and what Riley told them was, "Do what Buffy says."

Ever been in the army, pal? They SUCK at questioning orders. You can try it, but then they tend to shoot you.

Now, as far as Spike's line about the drugs they gave him to keep him in line.... at face value, I'll give you, it looks like Greenberg dropped the ball. But Joss reviewed every script that came in; I haven't seen the episode in question since it was new-- but I'm sure there was something else at work there.

Sorry your website friends don't like "Buffy." Maybe they should try WATCHING SOMETHING ELSE.

Warm Smoochies,



___\_o_/___
--------------- (Qs)

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 1:50 PM

LITWOLF689


Quote:

Originally posted by Quicksand:
No. I don't know who wrote your cute little article, but his/her entire arguement about the Initiative falls flat, becase after season #4, THERE WAS NO MORE INITIATIVE. When we see them seasons later, they are no longer any kind of Initiative. The high-ranking government-types shut the whole program down... the people who show up to remove/repair Spike's chip are just Army Guys. Army Guys, by the way, who are under Riley's command, and will do what he says no matter what-- and what Riley told them was, "Do what Buffy says."

Ever been in the army, pal? They SUCK at questioning orders. You can try it, but then they tend to shoot you.

Now, as far as Spike's line about the drugs they gave him to keep him in line.... at face value, I'll give you, it looks like Greenberg dropped the ball. But Joss reviewed every script that came in; I haven't seen the episode in question since it was new-- but I'm sure there was something else at work there.

Sorry your website friends don't like "Buffy." Maybe they should try WATCHING SOMETHING ELSE.

Warm Smoochies,



___\_o_/___
--------------- (Qs)



Im glad you finally agree that the writers screwed up a little on the script.

And I know there is no Initiative after season 4. What are you going off about? What he/she means is the few times they did try to mention the Initiative, or the government at all, again (Riley going crazy and growing super strong and when Riley came back with his wife) were very bad and not needed. The whole point of the argument is that there were no drugs that we saw on screen (and there is no proof at all that they used drugs even off screen). I dont know what the heck your talking about.

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Friday, June 4, 2004 6:37 PM

ANGELDOVE


Hi, its me again, I posted that long long long series of quotes from seasons 6 & 7 looking for a line that I knew I had heard but after hours of script reviewing could not find to save my life, and give me back the wasted hours!!! Then I' watchin' Buffy repeats on FX, and low and behold, there is my reference I was looking for all along!

BUFFY: I just...I don't understand why I'm back.
GILES: You have a calling.
BUFFY: But it was my time, Giles. Someone would have taken my place. (Giles nods, sadly)
Buffy: So why?


And so after all that searching, there it is. I've known for sometime that it was just a continuity mistake, and it isn't the first in either of the Buffyverse series, and yes, they do bother me too, alot. So I thought, lets spice it up (like this needs spicin' up) with this intersting conundrum...The first tells the Ubervamp to go after the other potentials, first, kill Buffy last, so no new slayeretts called...yada yada..(my problem with that theory below), anyway, Faith has an inmate come after her in prison, with the bringers knife, ready to kill her...ok, they wouldn't want her dead either for the same reasons right? My argument with not killing the real slayers first, once called, wouldn't it be easier to kill newbie slayers that don't really know what they are doing? I'm just saying.



"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the road less traveled by and they CANCELLED MY FRIKKIN' SHOW. I totally shoulda took the road that had all those people on it. Damn." --Joss

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Thursday, August 26, 2004 11:18 PM

ANGELDOVE


When I saw this in the original shooting script by Joss Whedon before he changed it for final shooting, I just had to post it here. This is how Joss answered that question we have all been asking:


Quote:

BUFFY: It’s true none of you has the power Faith and I have. (she glances at Dawn) I think both Faith and I (beat, should she?) and Dawn... would have to die for a new one to be called,(the potentials react, Buffy hurries to continue) and we can’t even be sure that girl is in this room...
KENNEDY: What do you mean, Dawn would have to die?
BUFFY: (hesitant) When I died, the second time. No new slayer was called. Because Dawn was me...is me. The monks who sent her here made her from me and now the line moves through all three of us. That’s the rule... The mystical forces surrounding the Chosen ones have been destablized and we can’t fix them. The line is vulnerabe and we can’t put things back the way they were. So we’re going to change the way things are. Here’s the part where you make a choice.



Also, fun things to note, in the original version Xander dies to protect Dawn and Anya lives. Spike still dies although he has to fight off a now slayer strength Dawn to get the amulet back from her as she plans to wear it, figuring it was meant for the Key.
And the original ending:
Quote:

ANGLE : Debris, the fallen school.
A hand, bloody and beaten, pushes it’s way up through the rubbel.
BLACK OUT.



How very intersting...was it Xander?


"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the road less traveled by and they CANCELLED MY FRIKKIN' SHOW. I totally shoulda took the road that had all those people on it. Damn." --Joss

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Friday, August 27, 2004 3:34 AM

CHRONICTHEHEDGEHOG


What you're talking about is NOT the shooting script. It's a script that was circulating around the time of the finale but wasn't real. Though Joss has never been questioned on it, it's assumed to be either a combination of Joss' script and fanfic or something ME leaked to keep people guessing about what was going to happen.

You can find the actual shooting script here:
http://www.unreliablenarrator.net/buffyverse/buffy_shooting_scripts/7x
22.htm




check out my WIP firefly roleplay system at www.estador.co.uk/firefly

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