BUFFYVERSE

Problems with 2nd Caleb episode

POSTED BY: SUCCATASH
UPDATED: Tuesday, May 6, 2003 20:05
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 6816
PAGE 1 of 1

Tuesday, April 29, 2003 4:28 PM

SUCCATASH



Maybe I'm just not Buffy enough, but I've been watching all season, and I thought tonight's show was not so great.

I have really enjoyed Buffy and can totally see Joss's handiwork. I was REALLY looking forward to tonight's episode.

I'd have to say it was weak. I didn't understand the intro and I thought the latex demon character driving the car was pretty lame. Who the hell was that guy? Was he a part of Buffy's imagination? Maybe if I had watched every season I would understand.

When EVERYBODY told Buffy to go to hell, I kept thinking they were brainwashed by the First. Or maybe Buffy would wake up from a bad dream. But apparantly they really did reject her, and I didn't find that scene altogether believable.

Not enough of Caleb, either. All in all, I was disappointed by this show.




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, April 29, 2003 5:57 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


The demon guys name is Clem. He was introduced as a friend of Spikes last season, he was used as an element of comic relief. Playing poker for kittens, renting chick flicks while babysitting Dawn, etc. I think potraying him the way they did was to contrast this, he had seen apocalypes coming before and didn't panic like this. It was to show that the upcoming battle will not be the regular type of fight.
I was waiting for this break with Buffy to happen, I think it was just waiting for Faith to pick up the reins. Thoughout the show one element has always remained the same, true to the mythology of the slayer I guess. She fights alone, Not in command of an army. As the one true slayer, she will have to go one on one with the first, alone in the night to borrow a phrase.
As for the lack of Caleb, I agree
but I suspect he will become more and more involved through the last shows. Hard to write the bad guy into a core role, I have a sneaking suspicion that maybe Caleb might not be everything he appears. He may wind up being the key to stopping the first.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, April 29, 2003 5:57 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Sorry double posted, hope you enjoy the upcoming episodes more.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, April 29, 2003 6:26 PM

SUCCATASH


Oh, I was entertained. But I guess I was hoping for more, or different. Too bad for me.

I liked Spike's conversation about onion rings and french fries. But I wish it had just ended with that moment -- I saw it coming when Spike said, "If you tell anyone about this conversation I'll bite you." I think the uncomfortable silence would have been a better ending to the scene.

I like the idea of the Slayer fighting alone.

It's a great show, I'm excited about next week. I wonder what kind of weapon Buffy is supposed to wield? Something not meant for Caleb, hmmm. I wonder if it's a Ring?







NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, April 29, 2003 6:44 PM

SUCCATASH



The slayer fighting alone is a cool idea. But in three surprising minutes, all of Buffy's friends of 7 years turned on her and kicked her out of her own house. It is not believable.

How could her sister tell her to leave? People who didn't want to follow Buffy anymore should have just left.

Everyone seemed out of character to me. Buffy loses one fight in seven years and they kick her out? And she goes? Without fighting Faith?


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, April 29, 2003 11:09 PM

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND


I saw it coming. But I thought for sure it would be the Potentials who mutinied against the Scooby Gang. Even if Buffy's right about the vineyard being the seat of the First's power you think she could have found a less bitchy way of telling them about it. Something that wasn't immediately followed by the command to go back to the Winery of Death and Dismemberment without at least a plan. That she so didn't have yet and wouldn't have even thought of asking for input on if everyone hadn't been yelling at her. So the Scoobs being in on the toppling of Buffy from her throne did not surprise me. In fact I was pretty much fine with all of it until Dawn kicked Buffy out of the house. The hell?

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, April 30, 2003 1:08 AM

NOVAGRASS


Quote:

Originally posted by Succatash:

The slayer fighting alone is a cool idea. But in three surprising minutes, all of Buffy's friends of 7 years turned on her and kicked her out of her own house. It is not believable.

How could her sister tell her to leave? People who didn't want to follow Buffy anymore should have just left.

Everyone seemed out of character to me. Buffy loses one fight in seven years and they kick her out? And she goes? Without fighting Faith?




It was hardly sudden. They've been working up to this since Conversations with Dead People, the seventh episode of this season. All of Buffy's preaching and bitching and trying to command the potentials was really giving her a holier than though issue. That's Buffy's tragic flaw, her superiority complex and her selfishness.

I'm *really* impressed that they all turned on her at the moment they did. It was perfect timing in my eyes.

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, April 30, 2003 4:28 AM

MERLINDREA


Actually, I had the same problem like others here - I just couldn't find it believable. Okay, a fight within the gang was coming. But I just couldn't believe Buffy would stand there and saying "last time was no fun" with Xander sitting one-eyed before her - I mean, this is just not the way to say this. Buffy is usually considerate and she was very hurt by what happened in the cellar, so she would not describe a night where people were killed and her best friend lost his eye as "no fun".

Second, Dawn throwing her out was just not believable. "I love you but this is my house, too, now go!"??? (Willow's reaction was more in line with her character, doubting Buffy's judgement)

Bottom-line it bothered me that the writers choose to have people act strangely, just to reach the goal of the lonely slayer again. Its a cheap ending for a great show. I would have expected better.

Merl

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, April 30, 2003 4:46 AM

HOTFORKAYLEE


Quote:

Originally posted by Novagrass:


It was hardly sudden. They've been working up to this since Conversations with Dead People, the ninth episode of this season. All of Buffy's preaching and bitching and trying to command the potentials was really giving her a holier than though issue. That's Buffy's tragic flaw, her superiority complex and her selfishness.

I'm *really* impressed that they all turned on her at the moment they did. It was perfect timing in my eyes.

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon



At that point I was ready to kick Buffy out myself. I Agree with Novagrass and I think Buffy is wrong:
Quote:

First: And how was our best girl?
Caleb: They always think they should put up a fight
First: So did you lay the proper groundwork?
Caleb: Yea I did. Reckon she got the message, even if she doesn't know it yet. So now the big strong slayer goes back to those girls. She's just so ready to walk them right into it.



I think that getting Buffy to lead the girls back to the vineyard is the plan, to finish them off. If everyone had listened to Buffy they would be dead now. Caleb wanted them there and afterwords he and the first would go to the hellmouth. Why bother protecting the hellmouth when it's not going anywhere?



Quote:

"Wars are won or lost before they are fought. The preparation, attitude, strategy, and the selection of proper allies. "


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, April 30, 2003 5:49 AM

SUCCATASH


GINOBIFFARONI wrote:
"The demon guys name is Clem. He was introduced as a friend of Spikes last season, he was used as an element of comic relief."


So it this demon just driving around in a car, and no one notices he is not human? Or is he invisible to regular people?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, April 30, 2003 5:56 AM

FIREFLYPASSENGER


I'm still having a problem with the shift in mentality. One minute they're behind her and the next not. Xander gives a speech about trusting her and now he agrees with everyone that Buffy is not to be trusted.

I'm still having problems with Giles second guessing her and making decisions in her absence. She is the slayer, he is the watcher. The slayer fights alone, that's true. Buffy is being reckless and inconsiderate that's true. But Giles trying to get Spike killed? Giles sending Spike away when Buffy needs him most? Things would be different if Spike was there for this showdown.

I'm looking forward to see what Joss does with the remaining episodes. Definitely need more Caleb.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, April 30, 2003 6:44 AM

LEGALBEGAL


I missed the entire episode as I was at work and my vcr didnt record it. If you could tell me what happend piece by piece I would much appreciate it. Thanks alot in advance.

Ps I got the part about the gang kicking buffy out. I find tha weird did Joss write this ep or did someone else.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, April 30, 2003 9:45 AM

SUCCATASH


Novagrass wrote:
"It was hardly sudden."

As somebody already mentioned, Xander gave a big speech about supporting Buffy during the first Caleb episode. It was a touching speech, full of love and loyalty.

I'd say it's pretty damn sudden.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, April 30, 2003 9:53 AM

NOVAGRASS


Quote:

Originally posted by Succatash:
Novagrass wrote:
"It was hardly sudden."

As somebody already mentioned, Xander gave a big speech about supporting Buffy during the first Caleb episode. It was a touching speech, full of love and loyalty.




And then he got his eye gouged out and two potentials were murdered viciously, as Buffy just sits back and takes it like nothing has happened, willing to lead the cavalry right back into the EXACT SAME trap.

Buffy made a huge mistake, a mistake that KILLED PEOPLE and rendered Xander handicap. She practically murdered those girls herself, and was willing to murder the rest without a second thought. She's been letting her girls die left and right (since Bring on the Night, episode 10 of this season), without seeming to care (if she did, she hasn't been showing it to the rest of them, she's been bottling it up, keeping her fire of righteousness burning bright). She's been allowing them to die, she's been encouraging them to run off and get killed if they don't blindly follow her. I'd say that's pretty damn poor leadership. She can't seem to get it through her head that her followers ARE following her blindly, and continues to act as the self-righteous leader with no one following her orders (when in reality, every order she's given has been enacted without hesitation, with the exception of this last one). And Buffy is not a follower, she can't follow, she shouldn't be expected to follow, so she has no place with the group. And what is she going to do? Kick over fifty people out of her house with no place to stay? I'm more suprised they didn't kick her out before this.

Buffy is a pretty definitive hero's journey. Name me one hero's journey where the hero hasn't been seperated from their friends and forced to make their final journey alone (usually with one confidant for support). Bet you can't.(read Joseph Campbel's "The Hero With a Thousand Faces" for more information on the hero's journey). And I think they're doing a pretty good job of alienating her in a very believeable way.

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, April 30, 2003 10:18 AM

NOVAGRASS


Quote:

Originally posted by FireflyPassenger:
Giles sending Spike away when Buffy needs him most?



The thing is, Spike is hindering Buffy's ability to lead. She keeps putting people's lives at risk at his expense, and if Spike hadn't stopped Buffy from kicking Caleb's ass after Molly was killed, Xander would still have two eyes.

Also, Buffy seems to put too much trust in Spike being her only fighter. She underestimates them all and thinks they're trying to sabatoge her (as she said to Faith in the big group meeting, and as she implied to Giles when they were alone) and as long as Spike is around to cater to her every whim and validate any decision she decides to make, she'll continue in her already established behavioral patterns. She seems to place Spike on some sort of pedestal, allowing him to get away with things he shouldn't be allowed to (ie, killing Wood if he "even so much as looks at [him] funny").

Spike keeps Buffy from making the right decisions because she's too emotionally invested in his absolute devotion to her.

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, April 30, 2003 10:31 AM

HJERMSTED


LEGALBEGAL asked:
Quote:

I find tha weird did Joss write this ep or did someone else.


'Empty Places' was written by Drew Z. Greenberg.

-----------

Here's a cool line of dialog that has stuck with me for several years now. It's from a Batman: The Animated Series episode. I feel it applies here for both Buffy and Batman are heroes fighting the good fight... the BIG ENDLESS good fight... with some help from others, but ultimately alone. In the episode (I think it's called 'I Am the Knight') Batman is questioning why the hell he bothers fighting crime and wonders if he's even making a difference at all.

Here's the quote spoken by Batman himself:

"A fanatic is a person who redoubles their efforts while simultaneously losing sight of their goal."

My question is: Has Buffy lost sight of her goal? When you boil it down, isn't her goal to 'know her enemy'? She needs to know her enemies in order to defeat them. In the past, Buffy and the Scoobs hit the books and always found a way to defeat the baddies. Brain first then brawn.

However, now Buffy seems to be in a big hurry and is focusing on the physical more than the mental aspect of war. She wants to charge in and fight without having all of the info she needs to achieve victory.

In an unintentional intervention, her comrades in arms told her as much and Buffy in pure fanatic style refused to see their side. Our heroine doesn't seem to care so much where Caleb comes from or how he is empowered with such awesome strength.

I'll have to watch 'Empty Places' and the preceding episodes again, but I think this new alienation from her comrades is fully earned storywise. Buffy crossed over into fanaticism at some point and I believe it was earlier than last night's ep.

mattro

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, April 30, 2003 10:58 AM

SCIFISIREN


I wasn't surprise with the fight but the “we are kicking you out” surprised me. What the fuck?

Let us not get into Anya with the "Who says you are worthy..." Well let us see maybe the fact that: few slayers, if any, live to see their 20s. She threw herself into a hell mouth opening to save a sister who isn't real. Every other fight they have engaged in has been won under her leadership, as well as 7 years worth of other reasons.

Though I agree that going to the vineyard wasn't one of her best ideas. I also agree she's been a bit of a bitch lately, but hey I would be stressed out too if I was the ONLY ONE with the true job saving the world. Faith is cool and all, but it isn't her show.

Xander lost an eye. He is lucky this is the first time he lost anything considering the stuff they have been through. Potentials died, yeah well if she didn't take them in they would have died sooner.

I would have smacked Dawnie... She always had this little attitude that got on my nerves. That whole "I'm not getting enough attention" vibe needs to go. I don't care if she is just a teenager.

But I also agree, Buffy should be alone for a while. They just make her weak. Once, her friends made her strong, they reminded her why she was fighting but no longer, they can only make sacrifices when it doesn’t hurt. Yeah, yeah, yeah you broke an arm and lost an eye, but this could be the end of the world, I would say your loses were small.

But I don't think the first wants to end the world, maybe rule it. After all why kill off all the potentials if you were to destroy the world anyway? Everyone would just be gone, but if he wants to rule, that is the only reason why I would see them as potential dangers to his plan, because there would always be a slayer to deal with.

I can't wait until they find themselves in a moment of fighting and realize they are hopeless without her, only to have her walk up with her sword, and kick some ass and save their weak ass lives! I bet they will be falling over themselves trying to do the "i'm sorry" cry then. P)roviding she lives (serious doubt).

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, April 30, 2003 11:27 AM

NOVAGRASS


Quote:

Originally posted by Hjermsted:
I'll have to watch 'Empty Places' and the preceding episodes again, but I think this new alienation from her comrades is fully earned storywise. Buffy crossed over into fanaticism at some point and I believe it was earlier than last night's ep.

mattro



I love Batman The Animated Series, back when it was on Fox. So smart...

Anyway, I totally agree Mattro... in fact, I'd say she crossed the line between heroism and fanaticism somewhere around "Get it Done," perhaps when Chole hung herself... or maybe she lost it when she was ressurected in season 6, after all, this is her first big fight since then.

What I'm most interested in now is how she reclaims that sight of the goal she once had... how she'll earn her place as the leader of the group.

And going on a tangent... I've always had a theory that the hero in Buffy has never really been Buffy herself, but that it has been divided between the three main characters, Buffy, Xander and Willow... each representing a part of a hero, and becoming a whole only when assembled. I think that this story arc is to establish Buffy as a hero in her own right... which may be interesting. But yeah... major digression.

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, April 30, 2003 12:25 PM

SUCCATASH


Novagrass wrote:

"Buffy is a pretty definitive hero's journey. Name me one hero's journey where the hero hasn't been seperated from their friends...Bet you can't."


What are you talking about? You should read more carefully.

Succatash: "The slayer fighting alone is a cool idea."

Let's try to stay on topic. The issue isn't about a lone hero. It's about the sloppy way it happened. My original point was that I didn't find that scene to be believable, for a variety of reasons. I am not talking about the traditional hero's journey.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, April 30, 2003 12:29 PM

NOVAGRASS


Quote:

Originally posted by Succatash:
Novagrass wrote:

"Buffy is a pretty definitive hero's journey. Name me one hero's journey where the hero hasn't been seperated from their friends...Bet you can't."


What are you talking about? You should read more carefully.

Succatash: "The slayer fighting alone is a cool idea."

Let's try to stay on topic. The issue isn't about a lone hero. It's about the sloppy way it happened. My original point was that I didn't find that scene to be believable, for a variety of reasons. I am not talking about the traditional hero's journey.



Sorry I got off on a tangent.

Geez, a bit confrontational, aren't we?

So, you're up on staying on topic, which is a good idea, I apologize that I wasn't. And actually, I did tie in my argument at the end... " And I think they're doing a pretty good job of alienating her in a very believeable way."

Maybe I'm not the one who should be reading more carefully? Or maybe you could add a little more insight than simple, unfounded condemnation? Do you have nothing else to say?


--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, April 30, 2003 1:14 PM

NICOLA


Quote:

Originally posted by Novagrass:

And going on a tangent... I've always had a theory that the hero in Buffy has never really been Buffy herself, but that it has been divided between the three main characters, Buffy, Xander and Willow... each representing a part of a hero, and becoming a whole only when assembled.



And Giles.

Of course you are right. Check out the episode "Primaval" when the four Scoobys cast a spell to share their strongest aspects in order to defeat Adam.

Xander = heart/Animus
Willow = spirit/Spiritus
Giles = mind/Sophus
Buffy = hand/Manus

And Buffy's line at the end of her battle with Adam (all four voices combined):

"You could never hope to grasp the source of our power."

This friendship theme is emphasised again the episode where the Scooby's all fall asleep and have a dream of the First Slayer.

Quote:

I think that this story arc is to establish Buffy as a hero in her own right... which may be interesting. But yeah... major digression.



Perhaps this season is to be Buffy's independance day? No, I don't think so.

Remember, the idea of the slayer without the support of her friends has been explored more than once before and it always comes back to the knowledge that the slayer is stronger with the Scooby's than without.



Nicola Wood

==================================================
Passionate ideologues are incurious by nature and have no time for obstructive details.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, April 30, 2003 2:01 PM

SUCCATASH


Novagrass wrote:
"Geez, a bit confrontational, aren't we?"

Sorry, if I sounded too confrontational, I just didn't want to be misunderstood.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, April 30, 2003 2:16 PM

SUCCATASH


Can anyone help me with my question?

GINOBIFFARONI wrote:
"The demon guys name is Clem. He was introduced as a friend of Spikes last season, he was used as an element of comic relief."


So it this demon just driving around in a car, and no one notices he is not human? Or is he invisible to regular people?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, April 30, 2003 2:55 PM

CAPTBAGGYTROUSERS


Clem's been around normal folks a few times, most notably at Xander and Anya's not-quite wedding. He was explained away to the Harrises as part of Anya's "circus" family. I suspect on the most recent episode everyone was simply absorbed with getting the hell out of Sunnydale and none too concerned with who was in the car next to them.

For awhile now BTVS has indicated that people in Sunnydale have some idea that something is not quite right in town, but tend to look the other way. My favorite example is third season, the prom episode where Buffy is given the "Class Protector" award. There were numerous shout outs about oddities people had witnessed but kept to themselves.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, April 30, 2003 3:49 PM

SUCCATASH


Oh, okay. Thanks for the tip.




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, April 30, 2003 5:10 PM

CORPRUGA


The simultaneous kicking out seemed a bit sudden to me, too, but what really baffled me about this episode was why Buffy kept pushing the issue after everyone made it clear they didn't want to go back to the vinyard. Has she suddenly come to the conclusion that since she's the Slayer, her vote counts more than everyone else's put together? Did she want to visit Caleb so badly that she couldn't take the time to ask her friends' opinions and come up with a plan somewhat more sophisticated than "We're going back!"? She should be getting the impression, after their first encounter with Caleb, that perhaps her army resents being sent into fatal situations without fully-formed strategies or any real reason. So, to sum up, I'm a little surprised that they all kicked her out, but I hope she learns from it and perhaps later gives her friends some sort of voice in deciding what happens.

"It's a thingie! A fiendish thingie!"--George Harrison, Help!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, April 30, 2003 5:27 PM

SUCCATASH


I agree with you, she should have backed down. A wise leader listens to the followers.

I think the answer to your "Why" question is simply because the whole situation was a bit forced.


Greenberg sacrificed the integrity of the characters in order to achieve a plot objective, which was to completely alienate Buffy.

I think this is a case of the end not justifying the means.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, April 30, 2003 5:44 PM

DRAGONWINE


Personally I think Buffy deliberately did what she did. The issue was forced because she forced it. She pushed till they pushed her out. She knew Caleb wanted them all to come back to the vineyard, just another trap. This way she goes on alone as she was meant, and she does not need to worry about getting anyone killed. No excess weight on her shoulders and she can go all out. She knew what she was doing and got the response she knew was necessary, but not what she truly wanted. I'm sure she would have preferred it some other way, but this is what had to be. And when will they figure out that when Buffy dies a new Slayer won't be called. A new Slayer will be called when Faith dies.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, April 30, 2003 5:54 PM

SUCCATASH


Then why did she act surprised and start crying? Was she just pretending?

I can understand her tears being real, with mixed emotions of leaving and all, but are you suggesting she acted surprised in order to save their lives?

Good thought.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, May 1, 2003 12:45 PM

MERLINDREA


Quote:

Originally posted by dragonwine:
Personally I think Buffy deliberately did what she did. The issue was forced because she forced it. She pushed till they pushed her out. She knew Caleb wanted them all to come back to the vineyard, just another trap. This way she goes on alone as she was meant, and she does not need to worry about getting anyone killed. No excess weight on her shoulders and she can go all out. She knew what she was doing and got the response she knew was necessary, but not what she truly wanted. I'm sure she would have preferred it some other way, but this is what had to be.



Dragonwine, this is a great idea - that way the whole scene would make much more sense. Even the line which bothered me most "last time was no fun" - if she said it deliberately, to be thrown out, that would be so much better.

It would also close the circle somewhat, because in the very first episodes, Buffy wanted to fight alone to keep her friends safe, but her friends didn't let her. Now, if she would tell them "I need to fight alone", they wouldn't let her either, so she chooses a fight to get them off her.

The tears don't have to be fake. Even if you plan something like this, the moment your friends turn on you is still very very hurtful.

So bottomline, I really hope you are right! Otherwise I would rate that episode as exceptional weak, because, as Succatash had said, the writers sacrificed the character integrity to get the story along.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 2, 2003 9:47 AM

CAPTBAGGYTROUSERS


Am I the only one who sees a little analogy in the episode?

The commander of an army is convinced the enemy's got some kind of secret weapon hidden in their fortress and decides to attack. The commander's friends and closest allies see the numerous flaws in this harebrained plan, call the commander on it, and are told to "fall in line."

Sound at all familiar?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 2, 2003 7:14 PM

KATSINNUYORK


Quote:

Originally posted by Succatash:

So it this demon just driving around in a car, and no one notices he is not human? Or is he invisible to regular people?



he's been in several episodes -- including buffy's birthday party where there were other people -- and he explains his look as a "skin condition." i guess people buy it

kat

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, May 3, 2003 5:46 AM

NOVAGRASS


Quote:

Originally posted by CaptBaggytrousers:
Am I the only one who sees a little analogy in the episode?

The commander of an army is convinced the enemy's got some kind of secret weapon hidden in their fortress and decides to attack. The commander's friends and closest allies see the numerous flaws in this harebrained plan, call the commander on it, and are told to "fall in line."

Sound at all familiar?




Hahaha! You know, I wonder if that is intentional or a coincidence. Joss has repeatedly expressed his distaste for the man in charge, maybe this is a pseudo-commentary on that.

--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--

"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, May 3, 2003 10:49 AM

SLOWSMURF


I dunno, I rewatched it finally.

I think it progressed reasonably. I mean, Xander might be arrogant, but he doesn't like getting hurt. That would be tramatising(sp?), as it would the two dying slayers to be, to all of them. Plus, Anya leads most of the discussion. I think the way Dawn reacted is the only thing in question, which could be a bit too strong for a sister.(but I'm not certain, I wasn't just exposed to all this stuff)

I think it was a pretty good ep, I only wish it had more Caleb in it. He's definetly one of the best villians they've done in my mind :)

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, May 6, 2003 8:05 PM

TERAPH


Quote:

Originally posted by SlowSmurf:
I think it progressed reasonably. I mean, Xander might be arrogant, but he doesn't like getting hurt. That would be tramatising(sp?), as it would the two dying slayers to be, to all of them. Plus, Anya leads most of the discussion. I think the way Dawn reacted is the only thing in question, which could be a bit too strong for a sister.(but I'm not certain, I wasn't just exposed to all this stuff)



Remember that in "Conversations" Joyce told Dawn that Buffy would not chose her when the time came. Dawn has reason to believe very strongly that Buffy will turn against her or abandon her. (Heck, Buffy promised last season to teach Dawn, and then dropped that promise the moment a bunch of potential slayers walked through the door.)

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
The anti-Joss anti-Buffy fever
Sat, August 14, 2021 16:45 - 2 posts
Oh boy... Joss gets triple teamed by Buffy / Angel alums - Charisma, Sarah , Amber
Wed, April 7, 2021 10:55 - 81 posts
Felicia Day On Escape!
Sun, February 28, 2021 20:17 - 6 posts
Is there life after Buffy...??
Sat, January 26, 2019 17:27 - 7 posts
Buffy Comics Reading Order?
Thu, July 19, 2018 03:00 - 3 posts
BUFFY BRACKETOLOGY - Round 7
Wed, January 31, 2018 20:35 - 1 posts
BUFFY BRACKETOLOGY - Round 6
Wed, January 31, 2018 20:30 - 1 posts
Just finished watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer for the first time
Mon, October 31, 2016 23:08 - 17 posts
Chop wifes head off... get a free hug
Sun, October 30, 2016 12:30 - 3 posts
Sarah Michelle Gellar wins People Choice Award 2014
Wed, April 20, 2016 18:51 - 4 posts
Xander goes wild ! Nicholas Brendon arrested for rowdy antics in hotel room.
Thu, September 3, 2015 08:16 - 9 posts
SMG is a dork
Wed, April 15, 2015 04:09 - 4 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL