BUFFYVERSE

Why do people like this show???

POSTED BY: RIVER6213
UPDATED: Monday, January 1, 2007 10:10
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 15311
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Thursday, November 3, 2005 1:29 PM

RIVER6213


I tried to watch Buffy the vampire Slayer...I really did because there seems to be an aweful lot of people who like it, but I have to say...its not very good at all. What makes it so popular?


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Thursday, November 3, 2005 1:34 PM

HOGWAFFLE


well where were you trying to watch it from? the first season isnt very good, but its a foundation for the rest of the seasons. i like the show because its funny, emotional and humanly realistic, same as all joss's shows

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Thursday, November 3, 2005 1:39 PM

RIVER6213


Yeah? Well my show hooked me from the start and then kicked me to the curb.

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Thursday, November 3, 2005 1:55 PM

ELEANOR


I started watching Buffy because of people on this board--I thought it would be worth a shot since it is from Joss, after all. I find that I can enjoy it as long as I don't take it seriously. Every episode leaves me with a "yes-but what about----?" question, and it's pretty easy to find plot holes. But I just take it as lightweight entertainment and don't worry about that. The dialogue is great, and if some of the actors aren't exactly perfect, they improve over time. (I'm only on season 2 right now, though.)

Admittedly, it doesn't compare to Firefly at ALL. I can react to Firefly as though it were real. I can't really get that into any story based on a supernatural premise, and I always found vampires the least interesting of all nonexistant beasties. But I can enjoy Buffy on a shallow, fun level.

"Be very, very careful what you put into that head, because you will never, ever get it out." –Cardinal Wolsey

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Thursday, November 3, 2005 2:06 PM

EMBERS


did you try watching the movie? because they pretty much threw out Joss' script...
you have to watch the TV show to get an idea of Joss' writing.

if you DID try the TV show, and didn't like it...
then maybe you just didn't get the metaphor goodness or have a prejudice against little blondes?

I noticed that 'Firefly' was pretty much 'little blonde free'....

but personally I loved LOVED Buffy (the musical is my favorite episode of anything Joss ever wrote including 'Firefly' or 'Serenity')

But Firefly will always be closest to my heart...

unless he writes something new I like even better

**********************************************
watch the R. Tam Session vids: http://www.hittarivertam.nu/
and buy the 'Serenity' comics published by Dark Horse,
and have you joined the Browncoats yet?
http://browncoats.serenitymovie.com/serenity/?fuseaction=tools.invlink
&u=embers&linkID=36

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Thursday, November 3, 2005 5:01 PM

VISITINGMYINTENTIONS


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I tried to watch Buffy the vampire Slayer...I really did because there seems to be an aweful lot of people who like it, but I have to say...its not very good at all. What makes it so popular?




It's constantly witty, it's self-mocking (without just being overly self-referential), and it has some damned sexy characters. I think the majority of the plot lines are a lot of fun, and individual episodes are hilarious. Try watching "Hush", or one of the other episodes people have named on the "best episodes" thread.

Of course, I can't guarantee you'll like it. It's not realistic like Firefly (Sunnydale, for example, expands and contracts as necessary), and it's got melodrama to spare. That means it just isn't some people's thing.

But give it another chance, and don't expect it to be a similar sort of thing to Firefly. You might find you like it after all.

[And by the way-- if you tried to watch the movie, I've got to say, it's some of the most unwatchable shit ever made, judging from the first half a scene, which was all I could bear to sit through. The show is nothing like it.]

---------------------------------------------------
Early: Where'd she go?

Simon: I can't keep track of her when she's NOT incorporeally possessing a spaceship, don't look at me --

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Thursday, November 3, 2005 5:29 PM

LIMINALOSITY


Yeah, what he said.

I started watching Buffy after I fell in love with FF. Joss' voice, humor and vision are the things I enjoy, whatever the vehicle.

Vampires have always been my favorite scary creatures, so how could I not love funny vampires, dorky vampires and vamps with angst?

I agree that if you choose from the 'best of' thread, you'll find lots to enjoy. 7 seasons makes for some slogging through eps that are less good.

Shiny Trees! Yavanna made Shiny Trees!

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Thursday, November 3, 2005 9:07 PM

OPPYH


Let's see, how can I put this? Ok got it: Buffy is the best show ever created that didn't get cancelled. It's because of Buffy that I even watched Firefly in the first place. If you are a fan of Joss Whedon, you should love Buffy. It's not a rule, but more of a fact. Joss is Buffy. Here is a simple test: Watch season 1(or at least Prohecy Girl from season 1) of Buffy followed by season 2. If you don't care what happens after season 2, then no your definately not going to like it.
I have friends that love Firefly, and hate Buffy, and vice versa. I guess I'm just a die hard Whedon fan.

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Thursday, November 3, 2005 10:48 PM

VISITINGMYINTENTIONS


Quote:

Originally posted by liminalosity:
Yeah, what he said.

[emphasis added]

Hey, I hope you're not talking about me, because I'm not a member of the minority sex.

---------------------------------------------------
Early: Where'd she go?

Simon: I can't keep track of her when she's NOT incorporeally possessing a spaceship, don't look at me --

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Thursday, November 3, 2005 11:24 PM

PURPLEBELLY


People like shows about sex and drugs. Those people that get BtVS is about sex and drugs like it -- those that don't, don't.

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Friday, November 4, 2005 2:19 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


River, that sounds a lot like what I was saying a year or so ago. I had only caught random scenes of Buffy and Angel over the years and thought it was all too silly for my tastes. However, after Firefly, and what a lot of other people were saying here and other places, I decided to give it another chance. You have to watch the series from the beginning, and you have to complete the second season, before making your final decision. There are some weak episodes in there, but overall the writing and character development is solid. After season three then you can start watching Angel in conjunction with Buffy, because they share a common history and have several crossover eps. I like Buffy a lot, but I like Angel even more, and eventually I will purchase all the seasons of each series on DVD.

But Firefly still rules. Not only is it Joss' best show to date, IMO it is the best tv series ever created in spite of its limited run.




wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Friday, November 4, 2005 3:36 AM

SERGEANTX


I had a hard time getting into Buffy myself. Part of it was just the superficial 'target audience'. As a middle aged man, I had a hard time imagining how I'd relate to a show about the tribulations of teen girls. Plus, I've never cared for 'monster' movies.

But... the show is so much more than that. It gets more obvious in the later seasons, but the monsters and most of the situations they face are thinly veiled metaphors for struggles we all face. Under the latex and kung fu, the show is really a soap opera with well developed characters struggling to find a place in the world, struggling to find 'family'. It's not that much different than Firefly in that respect.

You should definitely give it another chance.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Friday, November 4, 2005 7:23 AM

LIMINALOSITY


Quote:

Originally posted by VisitingMyIntentions:
Hey, I hope you're not talking about me, because I'm not a member of the minority sex.



OMG! How sexist of my brain! Bad brain, bad!

....at least I wasn't visiting your intentions

Thanks to viral marketing...SERENITY: reopening soon in a theater near you.
Shiny Trees! Yavanna made Shiny Trees!

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Friday, November 4, 2005 8:53 AM

LOVOK


Okay, you HAVE to see Buffy through the end of Season 2 before passing judgement. An episode in S2 called "Innocence" changed the direction the series was to take and turned into a show that could tell important stories. The string of episodes from "Innocence" to "Becoming Pt. 2" is probably the best chunk of television I'll ever see in my life. If you finish S2 and still don't like it, then you can definately drop it because you won't ever like it.

Also, the show isn't just about sex and drugs. My word, that's just *part* of the main theme of *only* Season 6.

Season 1, while not terrible, isn't great and has a lot of corny stuff in it. The plots are all pretty much horrible, but the character development it still fantastic (if you can see past the dumb plots). The middle of S2 is where the show takes off and never looks back all the way through S7.

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Friday, November 4, 2005 9:27 AM

CAPTAINCDC


Quote:

Originally posted by Eleanor:
I started watching Buffy because of people on this board--I thought it would be worth a shot since it is from Joss, after all. I find that I can enjoy it as long as I don't take it seriously. Every episode leaves me with a "yes-but what about----?" question, and it's pretty easy to find plot holes. But I just take it as lightweight entertainment and don't worry about that. The dialogue is great, and if some of the actors aren't exactly perfect, they improve over time. (I'm only on season 2 right now, though.)

Admittedly, it doesn't compare to Firefly at ALL. I can react to Firefly as though it were real. I can't really get that into any story based on a supernatural premise, and I always found vampires the least interesting of all nonexistant beasties. But I can enjoy Buffy on a shallow, fun level.




Well you are only midway through S2 right now so the best is certainly yet to come.

I would like to say however that two descriptions that definately should NEVER be applied to Buffy are "shallow" and "lightweight entertainment". I'm not saying everyone should love Buffy as much as I do (but it'd be a lot cooler if you did ), but if you think it is shallow and lightweight then you are not paying close enough attention. Buffy tells stories that all people can relate to at one time or another through metaphor. No episode is as it seems on the surface. If you think it is then you are not seeing the forest for the trees.

IMO, Buffy is the best show of all time. It's smart, funny, witty, dramatic, and touching on an emotional level unlike any other show I've ever seen. Give it a chance. Trust me everything you love about Firefly is present in Buffy in one way or another. Joss would not have had it any other way.



---------------------------------------

The only sovereign you can allow to rule you is reason!

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Friday, November 4, 2005 9:48 AM

HOGWAFFLE


by "my show" I assume you mean firefly, which is joss's third series, one might assume someone hits their stride by the third series and is better at hooking people. But is we are doing my show, your show, my show lasted 7 seasons has gazzilions of comics and books and yet more books, and sheets,and thongs and weapon replicas made out of it so =P

I love firefly too, duh i'm here, I love all joss, joss could read me the phone book and i am sure i would love it.

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Friday, November 4, 2005 10:16 AM

ASTYANAX


I watched Buffy and Angel both on DVD, start to finish, starting when both were in their last seasons (By the time I finished season 6 of Buffy, season 7 was out on DVD, if that makes sense--did have to wait a few months for the final season of Angel). Both were great. Yes, season 1 of Buffy is a little on the too humorous side, but it's also got a sweet innocence that's fun to watch again...after you have seen the events of later seasons. Season 3, especially the season finale, was great. I think Joss also had Buffy as a forum to try out new and cool things (an episode almost totally silent? A musical? Very forward thinking stuff).

Buffy is about growing up and becoming an adult. Angel is about what to do once you ARE an adult. I love them both for different reasons. Yes, overall, from what we have, Firefly is probably the "best" of the three overall (thinking writing, concept, etc.), but do give Buffy and Angel a fair try. If after watching 3 seasons of Buffy, you don't like it, fair enough--but do give it a chance.

Oddly enough, a couple of my favorite Angel episodes were in the last season. It was still great when it got cancelled. Grrrr.

Mal: "See, morbid and creepifying, I got no problem with. Long as she does it quiet like."

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Friday, November 4, 2005 12:27 PM

OPPYH


Quote:

Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
People like shows about sex and drugs. Those people that get BtVS is about sex and drugs like it -- those that don't, don't.



??? Are you talking about season 6 of Buffy?

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Friday, November 4, 2005 2:24 PM

ELEANOR


Quote:

...Well you are only midway through S2 right now so the best is certainly yet to come.

Buffy tells stories that all people can relate to at one time or another through metaphor. No episode is as it seems on the surface. If you think it is then you are not seeing the forest for the trees.



Well, I'll keep that in mind as I watch. I hadn't considered any of the events/characters metaphorically.

Quote:

Trust me everything you love about Firefly is present in Buffy in one way or another.


That's the thing. What drew me to Firefly in the first place was politics--the appeal of a story about independent and self-reliant people trying to escape an oppressive bureaucracy. I don't really see that in Buffy, although I do see alot of stuff about friendship and family which is certainly reminiscent of Firefly.

I think the reason Buffy feels shallow to me (the show, not the character) is that it is so often concerned with high school crap which, thank God, I don't have to care about any more. Maybe I would enjoy it more if I were younger.

"Be very, very careful what you put into that head, because you will never, ever get it out." –Cardinal Wolsey

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Friday, November 4, 2005 4:10 PM

DRU


The first time I saw the BTVS movie was on TV and I thought it was ok, nothing great. Many years later, at the Flashback Convention in Park Ridge they played the movie at the Pickwick Theatre, where I saw it again. It was very bad.

As for the TV series, I enjoyed both Buffy and Angel. The episode "The Pack" is my favorite episode of the first season. I knew it was going to be a different show, with what happen to the Principal

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Friday, November 4, 2005 8:15 PM

VISITINGMYINTENTIONS


Quote:

Originally posted by liminalosity:
Quote:

Originally posted by VisitingMyIntentions:
Hey, I hope you're not talking about me, because I'm not a member of the minority sex.



OMG! How sexist of my brain! Bad brain, bad!

....at least I wasn't visiting your intentions



Be glad of that. Be very glad.

I disagree with the people who say you should watch it from the beginning. I think you can skip season 1 if you want to (although I wouldn't), but whether you do or not, I advise with first watching an episode from a later season. The first episode of Buffy I ever saw was Wish, from season 3, and that impressed me with the worth of the series enough to want to watch it all. If I had started with season 1 I might have given it up as another 'Charmed' knock-off.

---------------------------------------------------
Early: Where'd she go?

Simon: I can't keep track of her when she's NOT incorporeally possessing a spaceship, don't look at me --

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Saturday, November 5, 2005 9:57 AM

RIVER6213


Well, I keep trying to take all your words for this show, and I keep watching it; i'm into the 4th season now, but I still think its the dumbest show on the face of the earth.

I simply don't understand how trash like Buffy stayed on the air for so long and primo shows like Firefly gets the axe in short order after only 14 episodes; it numbs the mind.

The fact that Buffy the vampire Slayer has such a huge following also blows me away; what's the matter with you people? This show is meant for pre-puberty types, that's the only thing I can think of that would make it popular. I can't imagine anyone over 18 liking it very much.

I really am sorry for knocking your show; its very clear to me that you people love it very much, and in a way I am jealous because you got season after season of Buffy, and I only got 14 episodes of my show, and then kicked to the curb...and when I really thought it was all over, I got a movie, just to find out that it was just put together so Joss could afford to make Wonder Woman; I am so angry and this crap is SO unfair

I hope he screws up Wonder Woman.

Its actually rather evil when you think of it. There is not much to shake a stick at on television, but every now and then something intelligent comes on the boob-tube and thats when I take an interests in it, just to have it yanked off the air and replaced with some thoughtless garbage.

I hate all of life and I especially hate Joss, who seems to get off playing with people heads.

This is all so depressing...I'm going back to bed.




River steps away from the table...

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Saturday, November 5, 2005 10:05 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
The fact that Buffy the vampire Slayer has such a huge following also blows me away; what's the matter with you people? This show is meant for pre-puberty types, that's the only thing I can think of that would make it popular. I can't imagine anyone over 18 liking it very much.


To each his own I guess. I am a male 55 years old, and I like Buffy and Angel quite a bit. Firefly is my favorite series of all time, but I think Angel is definitely on my top 10 list, and Buffy very nearly is. So you don't like it, fine, but it doesn't alter my opinion.



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Saturday, November 5, 2005 10:15 AM

WHISPER


If you hate so much after watching four seasons of it why are you still watching it? Obviously it's not your thing, which is fine.

You shouldn't call it "trash" though, because it really isn't. You may not like the show, but it isn't "crap." If it was I don't think there would be classes at universities dedicated to disecting the metaphors and deeper meanings of this one little show.

I understand that you didn't like it, and not everyone does, but please don't insult it.

Want Firefly/ Serenity/ BtVS/ Angel desktop wallpapers? Take a look at the ones I've created at:
http://www.whispergraphics.org
Now hosting the Firefly Extended Gagreel

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Saturday, November 5, 2005 1:00 PM

RIVER6213


I didnt say I hated it, I said I didnt like it all that much and was confused why people liked it.

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Saturday, November 5, 2005 1:10 PM

STAKETHELURK


I’m sorry you don’t care for the show, River6213, but you’re coming off a bit too combative here. The show you claim is “made for pre-puberty types” sure has attracted a lot of attention from University Professors analyzing its impressive exploration of philosophy, religion, and the human through its metaphors. Don’t believe me? Check out Slayage: The Online International Journal of Buffy Studies, http://www.slayage.tv. Just because you can’t see the depth, the meaning, the realism, doesn’t mean it’s not there. So it’s not your cup of tea, that’s fine. But “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” is not without merit for audiences of all ages.

And I think your understanding of the situation regarding Whedon’s other projects is very misinformed. Whedon did not make Serenity just so he could do Wonder Woman. Universal bought the film rights to “Firefly” in September 2003, Serenity was officially greenlit in March 2004. Filming for Serenity began in May, I think, and was over by early September 2004. Serenity was already *filmed* when the rumors about Wonder Woman started swirling (December 2004). Whedon did not officially accept the Wonder Woman project until March 2005. So, the two projects have nothing to do with each other; Whedon didn’t made Serenity so he could go on to greater things--he made Serenity because he loves the universe, the characters, the story, and the browncoats. And he decided to do Wonder Woman because there was no fixed release date for the film, no deadline--so that he would still have time to be involved in other projects, like a Serenity sequel or the proposed Buffyverse telemovies (though I guess now they might be direct-to-DVD). So, Joss made the BDM out of his love for it, not for jaded career-advancement--and he has deliberately kept his schedule open, holding back his career, so he can be able to return to the ‘verse if the opportunity presents itself. I really feel your “hatred” of this guy--who time and time again has come through for the browncoats--is misplaced.

And remember, if Wonder Woman does well, Joss could get enough clout to help push through his other proects--like more of the ‘verse.

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Saturday, November 5, 2005 1:35 PM

HOWARD



The first season was really only like a half
season.

The production values get a major boost
from the start of Season 3 when they first
started shooting 35mm instead of 16mm.

This was now a grown-up show with a grown-up
budget for a grown-up audience.

For me the Buffy/Angel verse is one great
epic and the best fictional creation of the
second half of the 20th century.

It achieved an entire understandable world
in a way that The X-files NEVER did and in fact
Chris Carter screwd his audience in a way Joss
at least on TV never did.






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Saturday, November 5, 2005 2:45 PM

CYBERSNARK


For those who don't like the high school aspects, that starts to drop off around season. . . 5? 6? Whenever, but they do graduate and end up having to face adulthood.

And, frankly, anyone who claims to have gotten through high school without being traumatized and/or mentally scarred is probably lying, so there should be at least some sympathy. (Unless you were lucky enough to be one of the Cool Kids, in which case. . . well, just go away. ;) )

Plus, even in the high school days, there's Giles, who could just about carry his own show (especially with Xander as his comedic sidekick).

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Saturday, November 5, 2005 3:21 PM

VISITINGMYINTENTIONS


Quote:

Originally posted by Cybersnark:
For those who don't like the high school aspects, that starts to drop off around season. . . 5? 6? Whenever, but they do graduate and end up having to face adulthood.

And, frankly, anyone who claims to have gotten through high school without being traumatized and/or mentally scarred is probably lying, so there should be at least some sympathy. (Unless you were lucky enough to be one of the Cool Kids, in which case. . . well, just go away. ;) )

Plus, even in the high school days, there's Giles, who could just about carry his own show (especially with Xander as his comedic sidekick).



Also, I would say that "high school" is just a setting. If anyone actually attends a high school anything like they are shown on film, I feel very sorry for them... To me, the show being set in a high school is similar to a show set in an office: just a way to get the desired characters into the same setting and have them interact.

---------------------------------------------------
Early: Where'd she go?

Simon: I can't keep track of her when she's NOT incorporeally possessing a spaceship, don't look at me --

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Saturday, November 5, 2005 6:00 PM

RITAK7


it's wonderful if you like mythology, the axiomatic savior who confronts the dark and dank evil that threatens us all-only the dark and dank things have faboo personalities and delightful oneliners! One of my favorite things about the series is how it takes..well it twisted and funny and joyously warped ex. the covert government agency which tracks hunts and traps demons vampires all the baddies and attempts to harness their powers as a weapon well then they tred across Buffy the Vampire slayers path of course there is awe disbelief etc. that a tiny chick is taking care of all this bad business and the head of the covert operation says to her 'ithought you we're a myth and Buffy's response 'well you were myth-taken' oh how drole pardon my blithering i just took a sleeping pill and i should be sleeping rather than typing goodnight!

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Sunday, November 6, 2005 6:14 AM

RIVER6213


Okay, I'll take all of your words for it, and I'll continue to watch it; I bought all the season sets, so maybe I'll start to see what the fuss is all about.
As a brunette you can understand that I STILL have a problem with a thin, 90LB blonde gurl who kicks the crap out of 250LB guys while subjecting them to cheesy oneliners.
Oh, by the way, it did sort of bother me when i went to the video store and ask the storeguy where I could find Buffy the Vampire slayer....he said, "Its in our Buffy section"

Buffy has her OWN SECTION?!


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Sunday, November 6, 2005 6:54 AM

HOGWAFFLE


well you shouldnt buy the sets if you dont think they're all that good tis jsut gonna piss you off more, and I am truly sorry firefly only got 14 episodes, because i think it would have been the best of his shows. but to be so meant o all of us who love something, and Joss and everyone is just wrong, stop being depressing and go away

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Sunday, November 6, 2005 7:05 AM

RIVER6213


Am I being mean to you guys? My intentions was not to be mean, and if I come off as being mean, please forgive me; I'm sorry.

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Sunday, November 6, 2005 7:59 AM

IAMALEAFONTHEWIND


I hate to say it, but I'm with you River. I think it's hard on those of us who's introduction to Joss was Firefly. That show is the result of all the experience Joss gained by doing the first two shows. It is very polished and well written. Better yet, it is very well directed and the 'Verse seems to follow a stricter guideline of rules.

I'm almost done watching season 1 of Buffy and so far I have been impressed with Joss's dialogue but that's about it. The directing so far is terrible and the amount of "conveniencies" that are employed in order for the premise to work makes me laugh. I don't mean to, but that's what it makes me do. I kind of feel that if the directing and acting were up to the writing it would be so much better. It would even make the conveniencies easier to take.

But I hear everybody talking about sticking with it, so I'm gonna, through Season 3, then I'll decide whether or not to watch the rest.

I suppose Zander is my favorite character so far. He's kinda like the Wash of the Buffy 'verse.

And even though Buffy hasn't captured my heart as of yet, I still find it very interesting from the standpoint that you're watching the evolution of a great talent. Joss's "voice" can be clearly heard right from the pilot episode. I noticed that he directed the last episode of season 1. I'm assuming that's the first time he directed anything. I'm excited to watch that episode and see if he can manage to bring more out of the actors. And I'm guessing that he directs more frequently as he gets his director's feet under him. I think that will help the show (for me), so that's another reason why I'm sticking with it.

One other thing: I don't think River was being mean at all. He/she had an honest question - the same one I've had - and he/she just wanted to see if some answers from the fans could help him/her some. Don't be so fragile, people.

And at least have a little sympathy for us new fans to the Joss world: Firefly is just so damned perfect. It's hard to backtrack from that. Very hard.

Listen, I always grew up a big Star Wars fan. I have even enjoyed the new trilogy where most people have not. It is flawed, as are most things, but still has lots of enjoyable moments. But Firefly/Serenity has changed even my love for Star Wars. Firefly/Serentiy has just been maintained at such a high level so far that it makes me less willing to compromise for other things. I bought Episode III the other day on DVD and haven't even opened it up. I'd just rather watch Firefly.

That's how good Firefly/Serenity is, and it's hard for anything else to live up to it, even other Joss Whedon creations.

"I don't wanna explode."

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Sunday, November 6, 2005 8:05 AM

RIVER6213


I did the same thing!
I bought episode III of Star wars and I didnt even open it up, matter of fact, when I got home, I ended up watching Firefly the Complete Series again!

I still havent opened it up yet now that I think about it!

And by the way, I'm a "she"


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Sunday, November 6, 2005 9:35 AM

STAKETHELURK


Quote:

I think it's hard on those of us who's introduction to Joss was Firefly. That show is the result of all the experience Joss gained by doing the first two shows. It is very polished and well written. Better yet, it is very well directed and the 'Verse seems to follow a stricter guideline of rules.
Well, that just goes to show that everyone has different reactions. “Firefly” was the first Joss Whedon program I ever saw, but after it was cancelled I went on to watch his other two shows--and absolutely *loved* them. Indeed, my favorite show that he made is not “Firefly,” but “Angel.” So, it’s too much a generalization to say that all those who first saw “Firefly” have a hard time adjusting to the Buffyverse.

Imaleafonthewind, it sounds like you haven’t finished season one yet. I’m glad you plan to stick it out, because the first season of any Whedon show is always the shakiest, with them still figuring out all the dynamics. (Think about that for a moment. It’s a trend in all Whedon shows, which means that had “Firefly” continued, it would have gotten even better its sophomore year and the browncoats would be warning prospective converts that “you have to get through season one before you really get to the good stuff.” Although the 14 episodes we have are all brilliant, they would seem weak in comparison to later seasons. Damn FOX!)

As for “Prophecy Girl,” that was Joss’ directorial debut. He’s described BtVS as something of a film school the public could watch because he was using the series to learn how to direct (and later other writers on the show got into the director’s chair, too, and did great things). “Prophecy Girl” is probably the best ep of season and was a sign of better things to come in the next season. In the first season, Joss only really had two good writers, himself & David Greenwalt, resulting in some less-than-stellar episodes. He also had to deal with directors who really didn’t know how to handle the material--the Joss usual of having scenes shift from one genre to another; drama to horror to comedy. Very difficult to light and film a scene that has to be scary, then funny, then scary, then dramatic. And the directors weren’t entirely receptive to his suggestions because, until “Prophecy Girl,” he’d never directed before (and he’d never run a show before, either). So, there will be definite improvement in the next season. And tell me again about the “bad directing” once you’ve seen “Hush” and “Restless;” once Whedon and the writers get control over direction things get really brilliant. As for the “conveniences” you mention, I’m not sure what you mean but I can guess about a couple of them (let me know if I’m off). In the two part premiere, Joss establishes that people rationalize away anything that challenges their perception of what is “real.” Some people have trouble with that idea, but I personally think it makes perfect sense. Folks see something weird but shake it off as a trick of the light all the time; it’s just that idea taken a little further. It’s also a classic device of horror, the people unable to see the monsters until it’s too late. It is also a metaphor into the teen mindset; the parents and adults (except Giles) are basically clueless about how the real world works but the teens see reality for what it is. And if you’re wondering why the police aren’t more on top of things, wait until Seasons Two and Three; they explain the situation much better.

And your comment of “a stricter guideline of rules” is interesting. The Buffyverse does have a strict set of rules (see www.atpobtvs.com for the Metaphysics section), the thing is that the rules basically allow virtually anything to be possible--one way or another. But there are still very strict rules. Vampires can and can’t do certain things. Magic can and can’t do certain things (can’t heal, can’t resurrect after a “natural death”). Prophecies always come true--but they can be manipulated. And there is some other stuff, too.

River6213, maybe you’re just not looking for the right things in the series. I’ll try and point you towards what I think are its strong suits--maybe if you start looking for them you’ll appreciate it more. Or, it could just not be for you; that’s possible (but tragic ). First, the reason Buffy has to be this little blond is of course to subvert the horror cliché. That same type of character was always the victim in traditional horror films; Joss wanted to take a seemingly powerless character and make them the most powerful and important character in the world--though the rest of the world doesn’t know it. He ties that into the teenage experience, of feeling incredibly important but unnoticed. So, to properly subvert the horror genre conventions Buffy has to be small, blond, and seemingly non-threatening. Yet she is the thing that monsters are terrified of. Subverting genre conventions is what Whedon is all about; in Buffy it’s usually horror conventions, while in Firefly it’s usually sci-fi conventions.

The other thing Whedon does, which I mentioned above, is tie all the metaphors into the adolescent experience. Buffy is a coming of age story, like lots of other classic literature. And coming of age stories generally tap into something common about the human condition; everyone has been through it, has gone through it, or will go through it. Just because the show is about adolescents doesn’t mean its for just adolescents. For comparison, Ender’s Game is about children, but it’s not a children’s book. And Dune is about a teenage boy’s coming of age, but it’s enjoyed not just by teenage boys. Whedon is simply trying to recapture the emotional reality of adolescence, the fear, the pain, the slow getting of strength as you stumble towards adulthood. “Emotional resonance” is Whedon’s catchphrase for this series--but also his series in general, including “Firefly.” The show’s monsters and villains are largely metaphors for the problems of adolescence; he uses them because they produce a stronger emotional level in both the characters and the audience. Take “The Harvest,” for example (2nd ep of first season). To a teenager, being kept from going out at night can feel like the end of the world--In Buffy, it will be the end of the world. Look at the role Angel plays in the first three seasons; he’s mysterious, secretive, potentially dangerous--an embodiment of both the attractions and potential perils of high school romance. That’s the kind of thing Whedon’s going for on this show. Sometimes, as in “Hush” in Season Four, the metaphor is more general than just adolescence. “Hush” is about the problems of language to convey meaning; how once people stop *talking* they start *communicating*. Stuff the characters could never say out loud is conveyed through their actions in that episode, for both better and worse. Buffy is always about the metaphor, the thing that the magic or the monsters represent.

Finally, I really recommend that both of you, Imaleafonthewind and River6213, listen to Joss’ commentaries for the Buffy DVDs--if you haven’t already. He really elaborates on things much better and is his usual entertaining self. I really recommend in the early seasons, the commentary for “Welcome to the Hellmouth”/“The Harvest” in Season One and “Innocence” in Season Two. Those really cut to the heart of what the show is about. For River6213, the commentaries for “Hush” and “Restless” in Season Four are musts. Those two eps are key to Whedon’s evolution as a director and a storyteller, his explanation of the eps and the process of writing them is fascinating.

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Sunday, November 6, 2005 1:26 PM

HOGWAFFLE


"I simply don't understand how trash like Buffy stayed on the air for so long and primo shows like Firefly gets the axe in short order after only 14 episodes; it numbs the mind.

The fact that Buffy the vampire Slayer has such a huge following also blows me away; what's the matter with you people? This show is meant for pre-puberty types, that's the only thing I can think of that would make it popular. I can't imagine anyone over 18 liking it very much."


I think there are some very mean things being said in there. i understand that she may not like the show as much as firefly, but knowing there are people here who do might make a more firendly person not call the show trash and continuosly post how odd it is such crap has such a following. I have been told the same thing about my devotion to firefly.

i just get sick of people ranting on about how much something sucks. go post about how awesome firefly is, how cool this one episode was instead its a healthier happier way to pass the time.

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Sunday, November 6, 2005 1:44 PM

RIVER6213


Hogwaffle,
Thanks for posting that.

Sorry for calling Buffy the Vampire slayer "trash"

Please don't be mad at me Just because I dont have such huge opinion of Buffy right at the moment! My opinion doesnt mean its not a good show; it just means that I havent come to a conclusion yet based on what I have seen so far. Its just my opinion, its not written in rock yet.

I'm watching all the seasons in the DVD series that they have available (I bought them all and it was expensive, and Buffy has her own section) and I'm bound to run into an episode I like, but that hasnt happened yet.

I'm doing this BECAUSE of all the posts that some of you wrote about the show that made want to look at each episode and season of Buffy. And the fact that Joss wrote them all makes me HAVE too look at all the episodes.

So please dont be mad at me for having some early opinions, I don't mean anything by it.

P.S. There are some things about Firefly that suck also, but the good parts outweigh the bad parts. That sound fair too you?

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Sunday, November 6, 2005 2:45 PM

NWUKSTEVE


Ok, there's a lot of opinions already been given, and one more by me is probably not gonna sway any one, but here it is anyway. I rate Buffy among my all-time favourite shows. I didn't fall in love with it straight away, but I did like it enough to keep watching, though I did miss the odd ep at first (this was before PVRs). By about midway through S2, it became must-watch TV.

However, I DON'T align myself with those numerous fans who think the show is good because of all the metaphors and allegories and what-not that it apparently contains. I enjoy the eps because they are entertaining, and the dialogue is so very, VERY funny.

If you've reached season 4 (which is without a doubt my favourite season no matter what the purists say) and still don't like the show, then I think you should give up.

I still remain convinced that the only reason the show didn't get more critical acclaim is because too many people didn't even give it a chance. But you obviously have, and NO show is going to appeal to absolutely everyone.

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Sunday, November 6, 2005 2:51 PM

MER


I dunno I just do.

First came the movie, I've always wanted to see it b/c I knew it would be terrible or hooky. MER loves her hooky stuff.

Then came the series. I watched the series b/c I love the movie.

So all in all, if you don't like hooky, chances are you won't like Buffy. One of my friends lsughed at the idea of the Buffyverse as being rather silly. And it is, but basically you have to buy into the fact that it's their world and it's real to them.

Oh and having the liking of horror in general helps.

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Sunday, November 6, 2005 5:11 PM

HOGWAFFLE


i dont care if you hate buffy like death itself=) i'm just saying lets not continually post about it. i hope that you do find something you like about it in the end, especially since u bought it all!

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Sunday, November 6, 2005 6:11 PM

TORTIMER


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I simply don't understand how trash like Buffy stayed on the air for so long and primo shows like Firefly gets the axe in short order after only 14 episodes; it numbs the mind.

The fact that Buffy the vampire Slayer has such a huge following also blows me away; what's the matter with you people? This show is meant for pre-puberty types, that's the only thing I can think of that would make it popular. I can't imagine anyone over 18 liking it very much.



I also love Firefly and think it is one of the best TV series of all time. I'm a 57 year old male and figured I would try Buffy/Angel after watching my DVD set of Firefly maybe 6-7 times. I watched the 1st season of Buffy and thought it was just ok. I really liked only 3-4 episodes. It was about half way through the 2nd season and something just clicked for me. I now think Buffy is my favorite TV series of all time. I remember when Buffy was originally broadcast. I didn't gave it a chance because it never seemed like my type of show. I'm currently almost done with season 3 of Buffy and IMHO it's great. I was a little embarrassed when I first went to my local video store and asked where the Buffy/Angel DVD's were located. Now after having watching almost all of the 2nd and 3rd season of Buffy I also have more appreciation for the 1st season. I'm so happy I tried Buffy/Angel because now I have 4 more seasons of Buffy to watch and 5 seasons of Angel. I'm so addicted and loving every episode.

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Sunday, November 6, 2005 6:16 PM

RIVER6213


I'm sorry, sorry, sorry! I'll never say anything bad about BTVS again okay???

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Sunday, November 6, 2005 11:33 PM

IAMALEAFONTHEWIND


Quote:

Originally posted by StakeTheLurk:
Quote:

Imaleafonthewind, it sounds like you haven’t finished season one yet. I’m glad you plan to stick it out, because the first season of any Whedon show is always the shakiest, with them still figuring out all the dynamics. (Think about that for a moment. It’s a trend in all Whedon shows, which means that had “Firefly” continued, it would have gotten even better its sophomore year and the browncoats would be warning prospective converts that “you have to get through season one before you really get to the good stuff.” Although the 14 episodes we have are all brilliant, they would seem weak in comparison to later seasons. Damn FOX!)



If Firefly were to get any better I think my head would explode. But that's just me. I dunno why but for some reason that show (and movie) clicked with me like no television show ever has before. I generally tend to not be a TV guy because I feel that it never quite manages to live up to the quality of a film, but Firefly seems to be the exception to the rule for me. The first couple of seasons of West Wing were up there, but hey, how can the white house compete with spaceships (heh heh)?

Quote:

As for “Prophecy Girl,” that was Joss’ directorial debut. He’s described BtVS as something of a film school the public could watch because he was using the series to learn how to direct (and later other writers on the show got into the director’s chair, too, and did great things). “Prophecy Girl” is probably the best ep of season and was a sign of better things to come in the next season. In the first season, Joss only really had two good writers, himself & David Greenwalt, resulting in some less-than-stellar episodes. He also had to deal with directors who really didn’t know how to handle the material--the Joss usual of having scenes shift from one genre to another; drama to horror to comedy. Very difficult to light and film a scene that has to be scary, then funny, then scary, then dramatic. And the directors weren’t entirely receptive to his suggestions because, until “Prophecy Girl,” he’d never directed before (and he’d never run a show before, either). So, there will be definite improvement in the next season. And tell me again about the “bad directing” once you’ve seen “Hush” and “Restless;” once Whedon and the writers get control over direction things get really brilliant. As for the “conveniences” you mention, I’m not sure what you mean but I can guess about a couple of them (let me know if I’m off). In the two part premiere, Joss establishes that people rationalize away anything that challenges their perception of what is “real.” Some people have trouble with that idea, but I personally think it makes perfect sense. Folks see something weird but shake it off as a trick of the light all the time; it’s just that idea taken a little further. It’s also a classic device of horror, the people unable to see the monsters until it’s too late. It is also a metaphor into the teen mindset; the parents and adults (except Giles) are basically clueless about how the real world works but the teens see reality for what it is. And if you’re wondering why the police aren’t more on top of things, wait until Seasons Two and Three; they explain the situation much better.



Thanks for explaining this stuff. You seem to know where I'm coming from with my two cents. Yeah, I'm definitely looking forward to watching the one that Joss directed. I get the feeling that even though it's his first time directing, he knows what he wants and what is lost in translation between him and the other directors will no longer be a problem. I swear, as I watch them I sit there thinking "oh, that's a clever line - so Joss - but boy the director really failed to get the actor to pull it off." I have total confidence that it will get continually better, so forward I go.

As for the conveniences, I'm referring to much more simplistic things. Nothing so deep I don't think. And they don't make me hate the show; they just make me laugh. Partly it's Joss learning, partly it's the restrictions of a small budget. I get it, but it's still funny to me. I get the feeling that as I watch Joss get more streamlined in creating the show that these little things will start to dissappear.

So, examples: It's just funny how Buffy always seems to not be in class. It's convenient that in chemistry class they are using the exact ingredients that they need for their spell or whatever. Convenient that their friend just happens to have a parking space right out on the front curb of the school so that he can finish his quick line of dialogue and then jump right in his car and drive away. Convenient that the demon in the computer is able to find a manufacturing plant so close to the school where he can convince people to make a stunningly advanced robot - that looks like the demon. Oh, and soooo convenient that right outside the gates of said manufacturing plant there just happens to be a payphone. That one really cracked me up.

Convenient how, with vampires and demons and whatnot all over the world, there only needs to be one slayer and she just happens to go to school right where the mouth of hell is supposed to open up. As far as one slayer goes, I think that's some bad planning on the good guy's part. I think I would try to have a few more; say, several hundred or so? And maybe make them older than teenagers? But hey, I know that the show is about the little blond girl who could, so I get it. And where are all the parents in this town? I love how they're just never around. And I love how these high school kids seem to have both the time and freedom to go to the club every single night.

Convenient that the demons or whatever the feature creature is for the episode, seem to onle become a nuisance one at a time. She never has to face like a hundred of them at once. Seems to me that if all the vampires attacked her at once they would squash her with sheer numbers. I'm sure there's some explination for that though - also conventient. Convenient that the master vampire always seems to have another "greatest" vampire to attack Buffy and convenient that the Watcher is always able to find the reference needed for Buffy to save the day.

Now remember, this isn't meant to be bashing, but these thing stick out to me - they draw attention to themselves. And like I said, I predict that as Joss gets more streamlined with the creative process these things will start to dissappear. He'll develope the ability to address these things and to problem solve as well as he writes dialogue. To me the proof of this is in Firefly.

Quote:

And your comment of “a stricter guideline of rules” is interesting. The Buffyverse does have a strict set of rules (see www.atpobtvs.com for the Metaphysics section), the thing is that the rules basically allow virtually anything to be possible--one way or another. But there are still very strict rules. Vampires can and can’t do certain things. Magic can and can’t do certain things (can’t heal, can’t resurrect after a “natural death”). Prophecies always come true--but they can be manipulated. And there is some other stuff, too.



I guess what I mean is that from what I've heard about Buffy, there really is no limit - time travel, clones, robots, whatever. In Firefly he really seems to be constraining himself to more familiar territory. Sure flying through space and all that is pure fiction, but he seems to be limiting himself there. Those limitations help keep the show "familiar", if you will, to the world we know and therefore keep it much more "believable" to the regular audience. No beaming anybody up, no androids, no time travel, no clones, and thankfully (due to the restrictions of television budgets) no aliens. Firefly is a Sci-Fi show, no doubt, but he's done everything he can to take the sci-fi out of it and let it be a good ol' western. And it works perfectly.

Quote:

Finally, I really recommend that both of you, Imaleafonthewind and River6213, listen to Joss’ commentaries for the Buffy DVDs--if you haven’t already. He really elaborates on things much better and is his usual entertaining self. I really recommend in the early seasons, the commentary for “Welcome to the Hellmouth”/“The Harvest” in Season One and “Innocence” in Season Two. Those really cut to the heart of what the show is about. For River6213, the commentaries for “Hush” and “Restless” in Season Four are musts. Those two eps are key to Whedon’s evolution as a director and a storyteller, his explanation of the eps and the process of writing them is fascinating.



I intend to listen to all the commentary tracks. I actually started to listen to one and they were spewing with the spoilers so I figured I better watch all the episodes in the season first, then go back and listen to the commentaries. The commentaries is actually what I'm looking forward to the most.

Again, thanks for your imput here. Much appreciated. I will stick through til the end of season 3 at the least and feel confident that it will get better and better, and I've always got my Firefly set to watch if I need a reminder.

"I don't wanna explode."

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Monday, November 7, 2005 12:28 AM

IATNE


Quote:

Originally posted by VisitingMyIntentions:

If I had started with season 1 I might have given it up as another 'Charmed' knock-off.

I can't believe that no ones picked up on this but charmed was a knock of of buffy. Buffy predates charmed by about two seasons.

I love Buffy but I personally like to pretend that most of season six never existed and I haven't seen most of season seven yet. any episode with Angelus in is always worth watching. the last half of season two is the best.

She made me feel human, thats not something you just forget

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Monday, November 7, 2005 1:37 AM

SUPERDUCKYWHO


You know, i didn't much care for it either. I remember I really did like the first and possibly the second season, but after that it all started to get too much like a soap opera... and then they kept killing her and bringing her back. I think it started to go wrong whin they started having less comedic releif and more relationship drama.

I mean, it all got kind of old. Angel, sort of the same thing, though I stuck with that one until I left to college. Like I said, more bits of comic releif there.

::waves:: HI!!!

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Monday, November 7, 2005 4:08 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I'm sorry, sorry, sorry! I'll never say anything bad about BTVS again okay???



River -

I think you should say whatever you want!

But ... if you get through season 4 and you still don't like it, I'll be happy to take those DVDs off your hands. All this discussion makes me want to watch the whole Buffy series again, and I no longer have TiVo to record it for me!





go run your little world

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Tuesday, November 8, 2005 9:16 PM

RITAK7


thanks for trusting me even though i wrote axiomatic rather than arechtype i do think you will dig the show there are some pretty priceless lines. one of my favorites is when willow is attacked by a vampire-won't give too much away-he is unable to bit her and is enourmously frustrated she get's all super sensitive insecurelike and says oh i get it im not hte kind of girl a vampire likes to sink his teeth into. it's always like oh your like a sister tro me or youre such a good friend]
and i am a 6'2 brunette 185 lbs of ass kick so i feel your pain about the 90lb thing-but i was lifting weigths with a friend the other dayshe's about 5'3 110 she presses 385 on the incline leg press just as much as i do so you never know

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Wednesday, November 9, 2005 7:12 AM

DISKA


my two pence on the subject...

i watched buffy when it was first aired in the uk when i had just finished high school and the series ended as i finished university. the first series was great although looking back now i can see major faults with it, but i understand it had a role to play and hadnt been allowed to properly develop yet, the forumla for buffy that we all know and love took *time*.

i watched every episode every week without fail for many years and grew with the characters, followed the ever increasing in-jokes,and learned the complex rules of the buffy verse and regard it as one of my favourite shows ever. it has meant more to me thatn anything i have really seen on tv.

firefly i only discovered recently and its apparant that joss learned a thing or two with buffy. i think i love firelfy just the same, and have fallen in love with the characters and dialogue, but im here to defend buffy... to discount buffy based on its first or even second series is wrong. also not liking it cuz the protganist is a 90lb blonde is wrong because there is so much more to it than that.

also dont force it if you really dont like it. like i said my experience was an episode a week for a few years, and the buffy verse can get pretty complex, so buying all the box sets and watching it all in one go and expecting to be entertained is maybe not realistic.

i dont know if i really have a point except that i love buffy and firefly almost equally

"Dear diary: Today I was pompous and my sister was crazy. Today we were kidnapped by hill folk, never to be seen again. It was the best day ever."

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Wednesday, November 9, 2005 9:31 PM

VISITINGMYINTENTIONS


Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I'm sorry, sorry, sorry! I'll never say anything bad about BTVS again okay???



You can say anything you like about Buffy--it's your opinion, and if you don't like it, well, that's how it is.

But the reason you are getting some criticism is the way you dismissed it: you called a show liked by many many people on this site "trash" and then proceeded to call all those people "pre-pubescent" and demanded to know "what was the matter with them". That is rude and trollish.

There is nothing wrong with saying you dislike Buffy, but say it in a polite way.

Quote:

Originally posted by iatne:
Quote:

Originally posted by VisitingMyIntentions:

If I had started with season 1 I might have given it up as another 'Charmed' knock-off.



I can't believe that no ones picked up on this but charmed was a knock of of buffy. Buffy predates charmed by about two seasons.



I imagine some producers saw season 1 and thought, "Oh! Maybe we can do this too!" ...And yet, they never got any better than that over the years, while Buffy exploded with talent.

"it has some sweet character deaths -- I mean moments!" - Joss Whedon

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