OTHER SCIENCE FICTION SERIES

Dollhouse Deathwatch

POSTED BY: PIRATENEWS
UPDATED: Monday, May 18, 2009 10:13
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 3657
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Wednesday, May 13, 2009 6:02 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Place your bets...
Quote:

A series ratings low for the finale "Omega" is a certain cancellation for Dollhouse. TV By the numbers and The Hollywood reporter is reporting. Really makes you wonder, why couldn't we save Dollhouse?

Tara's Group (the bitter realists) - thinks Dollhouse will not make it to season 2.

Michelle's Group (the starry-eyed optimists) - who believes that Dollhouse get renewed for a second season.

http://buffyfest.blogspot.com/2009/05/dollhouse-is-done.html


Dang, I knew they shoulda got Mr Spock when they had the chance!

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Wednesday, May 13, 2009 10:28 AM

MSA


I'm hoping for a second season, but I won't be stunned if it doesn't happen as FOX is obsessed with ratings in a way not even other networks display....

To love someone is to see a miracle invisible to others.
--Francois Mauriac
It's fuzzy-minded liberal thinking like that that gets you eaten.

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Wednesday, May 13, 2009 10:34 AM

RIPWASH


Well . . . ya know . . . the less time he has to focus on Dollhouse (which I gave up on, to be honest), the more time he has to focus on other things . . . like, oh, I don't know . . . Shepard's Tale or Serenity 2 or . . .

*********************************************
Mal: You think she'll hold together?
Zoë: She's torn up plenty, but she'll fly true.
Mal: Could be bumpy.
Zoë: Always is

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Wednesday, May 13, 2009 10:38 AM

ZEEK


I'm pretty sure it's getting canceled and frankly I don't fault Fox for it. The show isn't performing and it's not really up to the Joss standard. I know I won't be fighting for it. I probably won't even get the DVD set unless I find some incredible deal on it.

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Wednesday, May 13, 2009 10:48 AM

BYTEMITE


He might work on other things, but only after a prerequisite mourning period.

You work hard on something, it doesn't work out, you become depressed about it. Joss needs our support right now for ALL of his projects... or else he may come to resent his older, more popular ones.

Dollhouse was a good try. I don't think people got what he was trying to get at soon enough, the themes he was trying to explore. And those themes were... Dark. I'll admit that they're so dark that they're kind of a downer, and that after a viewing an episode, it's really not the kind of thing I rewatch...

But I do think there was a point to what he was trying to say, and a quality about how he said it. And I think I get it. So that's what makes it a success, I think.

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Wednesday, May 13, 2009 10:52 AM

RIPWASH


I appreciate Joss for his humor. Firefly had it in abundance as did Dr. Horrible. I hear (didn't watch them much) that Buffy and Angel had a fair amount of humor in them. I watched the first three or so episodes of Dollhouse and it was a little too muddled and didn't seem to have much humor.

While I agree that we should try to support Joss, I also think he should reward that loyalty with quality stories. I just don't think Dollhouse had the quality. That's all. I'll check out more of what Joss has done and will do in the future, but I'll be realistic at the same time and know that I may not love EVERYTHING he attempts.

*********************************************
Mal: You think she'll hold together?
Zoë: She's torn up plenty, but she'll fly true.
Mal: Could be bumpy.
Zoë: Always is

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Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:00 AM

BYTEMITE


I disagree with you that there wasn't quality. The show explored some important themes, such as identity and questioning the current self-obsessed culture of using people. It was done with good cinematography and use of mood and music. Characters had real problems, in an admittedly unusual setting, and eventually, piece by piece, we were revealed glimpses of personality.

The problem you're pointing out isn't a lack of quality, it's an overabundance of careful building plot and character progression. Even in the first five episodes, he had a direction... It's just moving in that direction was kinda slow going, too slow for a lot of people.

I'm not saying that Joss is or should be considered an unquestionable master of storytelling, or that there weren't flaws, or that this wasn't for everyone. I'm not even all that sure it was for ME.

But to say it lacked quality, just because you didn't like it or couldn't get into it? C'mon, mon, that's a smidgen harsh.

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Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:02 AM

RIPWASH


Okay okay. You got me. That was a bit harsh. It just wasn't my kind of thing even though I really wanted it to be.

*********************************************
Mal: You think she'll hold together?
Zoë: She's torn up plenty, but she'll fly true.
Mal: Could be bumpy.
Zoë: Always is

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Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:20 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:
I appreciate Joss for his humor. Firefly had it in abundance as did Dr. Horrible. I hear (didn't watch them much) that Buffy and Angel had a fair amount of humor in them. I watched the first three or so episodes of Dollhouse and it was a little too muddled and didn't seem to have much humor.

While I agree that we should try to support Joss, I also think he should reward that loyalty with quality stories. I just don't think Dollhouse had the quality. That's all. I'll check out more of what Joss has done and will do in the future, but I'll be realistic at the same time and know that I may not love EVERYTHING he attempts.

*********************************************
Mal: You think she'll hold together?
Zoë: She's torn up plenty, but she'll fly true.
Mal: Could be bumpy.
Zoë: Always is



Agreed. His take on the Alien franchise pretty much sucked eggs.

I had high hopes for Dollhouse, but honestly, I'm glad it's gone. One more hour freed up for more important things. I wish it had been better, but you don't strike gold every time you write a show. Joss has had plenty of good, and a little bad. That's more than a lot of folk can say.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:01 PM

PEULSAR5

We sniff the air, we don't kiss the dirt.


Not to split hairs, but I think his Alien script was heavily rewritten by other people which contributed greatly to the suckage. On the flip side, didn't he rewrite Titan AE, which was a pretty good animated film? Joss writing an animated move... hhhmmmn.

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Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:03 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Titan AE was awesome. Disney meets Heavy Metal.

Dollhouse humor was few and far between. At least one epp had none. It's like somebody wanted to copy 24 and COPS type shows -- zero humor 24/7.

BTVS formula was lots of campy jokes to get viewers addicted, then slowly reduce dosage, like a live frog boiling in a pot. Even Angel assassinated a Satanic Senator Hillary Clinton in its final epp, while being somewhat funny, like flipping a bird at Fox. Sir Rupert dined with Hillary every week for years, prepping her for running for prez. Firefly had plenty of humor, with a much higher dose of truth.



Victor: "Co-ed showers?!"
Mellie: "No big deal."
-Dollhouse, Needs

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Wednesday, May 13, 2009 4:32 PM

DMI

Expired, forgotten, spoiled rotten.


Not seeing a lot of positivity on this thread so I thought I'd chime in that I liked Dollhouse. Was it the best series ever? No. But it has already come a long way since the first eps which really did suck. I was very, very happy with the last few episodes and loved Alan's characters (all 48 of them). I'll be sad to see it go if the "realists" are right and very, very happy if FOX decides to give it a second chance.

Whether I buy the DVD depends on finances, but if I can afford it, I'll get it to show some friends and family like I did with Firefly because at the end it was worth watching.
-e


A blog on the struggles of an unpublished writer: http://www.blogiversity.org/blogs/dmi/default.aspx

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Friday, May 15, 2009 12:28 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

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Friday, May 15, 2009 3:43 AM

GWEK


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
He might work on other things, but only after a prerequisite mourning period.

You work hard on something, it doesn't work out, you become depressed about it. Joss needs our support right now for ALL of his projects... or else he may come to resent his older, more popular ones.



I'm not so sure about the mourning period. Yes, Joss put a lot of time and effort into DOLLHOUSE, but not NEARLY on par with BUFFY/ANGEL and FIREFLY. To be honest, I think that, so some extent, DOLLHOUSE is actually part of the end-stage of the mourning process for FIREFLY.

To put it in romantic terms, BUFFY/ANGEL was Joss's first love, and FIREFLY was his true love.(based on the way he talked about it in interviews, as well as the way he withdrew after).

DOLLHOUSE? That's the girl a friend sets you up with when you're ready to go out into the dating world again after you've recovered from the trauma of losing your true love (twice).


www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Friday, May 15, 2009 5:52 AM

FIREFLYPASSENGER


Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:
I appreciate Joss for his humor. Firefly had it in abundance as did Dr. Horrible. I hear (didn't watch them much) that Buffy and Angel had a fair amount of humor in them. I watched the first three or so episodes of Dollhouse and it was a little too muddled and didn't seem to have much humor.

While I agree that we should try to support Joss, I also think he should reward that loyalty with quality stories. I just don't think Dollhouse had the quality. That's all. I'll check out more of what Joss has done and will do in the future, but I'll be realistic at the same time and know that I may not love EVERYTHING he attempts.



Joss said to wait for episode 6. I started watching from the day it first aired. He is a great storyteller. One thing I've learned is that Joss always has a plan, so eventhough sometimes I don't like what he's doing I wait and see.

I did not like the first five episode. However I watched for the bread crumbs Joss was giving. The best thing about the pilot was the Mutant Enemy logo at the end. However I waited and watched episode 6 and loved it. That episode felt like Joss.

I kept thinking FOX would not let us watch the whole thing like Drive so I was afraid all season of cancellation.

I'll be happy if Dollhouse get renewed but if not then Joss can do other things as you said. For me its win/win.

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Friday, May 15, 2009 6:33 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by FireflyPassenger:

I'll be happy if Dollhouse get renewed but if not then Joss can do other things as you said. For me its win/win.



Yeah, that's a Zen Moment.

What if Joss is like Clint Eastwood, and starts using the same cast of actors in every project. That would be shiny.

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Friday, May 15, 2009 6:40 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by MsA:
I'm hoping for a second season, but I won't be stunned if it doesn't happen as FOX is obsessed with ratings in a way not even other networks display....



Obsessed? They gave it more of a shot than any other network would have? It's ratings would have justified cancellation from the start. Fans should be thanking them for at least letting it run it's course.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, May 15, 2009 6:58 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


DOLLHOUSE? That's the girl a friend sets you up with when you're ready to go out into the dating world again after you've recovered from the trauma of losing your true love (twice).



I like the idea of Dollhouse as a rebound fling. Makes it seem like it wasn't supposed to be long-term, just a li'l' sumthin-sumthin' to get us over the hump (so to speak).

So now Joss can clear his mind and get back to the REAL good stuff!

And don't get me wrong; Dollhouse wasn't awful, it just wasn't really any better than anything else that's on TV...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Friday, May 15, 2009 6:59 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by MsA:
I'm hoping for a second season, but I won't be stunned if it doesn't happen as FOX is obsessed with ratings in a way not even other networks display....



Obsessed? They gave it more of a shot than any other network would have? It's ratings would have justified cancellation from the start. Fans should be thanking them for at least letting it run it's course.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."



Good point, Story. Props to Fox for letting it go on as long as they did. Fox owes me nothing as far as Dollhouse is concerned; they're paid up for giving it a chance.

And none of my negativity towards Dollhouse should be construed as negativity towards Joss. Even Da Vinci created some less-than-masterful works now and again. They can't ALL be masterpieces! This just wasn't Joss at his best. He gave it his all, but it wasn't really a TV-friendly premise from the get-go, and I don't think Eliza is actress enough to pull off the multitude of different characters she needed to be.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Friday, May 15, 2009 7:06 AM

SICKDUDE


Quote:

Originally posted by DMI:
Not seeing a lot of positivity on this thread so I thought I'd chime in that I liked Dollhouse. Was it the best series ever? No. But it has already come a long way since the first eps which really did suck. I was very, very happy with the last few episodes and loved Alan's characters (all 48 of them). I'll be sad to see it go if the "realists" are right and very, very happy if FOX decides to give it a second chance.


DMI, I agree 100%! Thanks for summing it up so nicely. As has been pointed out, while the first five episodes were weak, it definitely improved and certainly qualified as great joss story-tellin' by the end. Tons of twists and turns. I hope it gets a second season as well.

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Friday, May 15, 2009 9:16 AM

BLACKOUTNIGHTS


I thought Dollhouse was spot-on for epic storytelling more so than anything Whedon's ever done. That's because of the ethical dilemmas it explores — the nature of personality, the soul connected to the body, etc — and how the characters responded to what's being done.

Dollhouse is NOT light-hearted, easy-viewing television. It's extremely intelligent writing. Kind-of like "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" but with humans playing the alien bit. I enjoyed it immensely, and I'm glad FOX gave it a fighting chance.

I doubt it'll be renewed due to the poor ratings, and that's not the network's fault. I find it interesting that the first episodes, which weren't as good as the final ones, got more viewership and that as the story started getting really good, it started dropping off. It doesn't surprise me, I just find it interesting. Just proves all it takes is dumbed-down programming for the people, and that sickens me. Guess we can expect seven days a week of prime-time American Idol.

Christ, save us.

I read FOX and Whedon are in talks to try and make the Dollhouse story more viable. Not sure if that means more affordable or more appealing to a mainstream audience. Worries me it may be dumbed-down too.

I'm cool with the final episode. That's a fine place to end it and gives the potential to pick it back up if need be. I'm actually sorta shocked so many people over on these boards didn't enjoy the show, but I understand not everything's for everyone. Cas I don't like Buffy, never have. The whole vampire-slayer bit is just kinda, well sorry and no offense, but I think it's stupid. And Buffy is Whedon's most successful venture. I guess it just wasn't sci-fi enough for me.

Firefly, on the other hand, was sweet. While the stories sometimes tended to be simplistic, the characters made the show — the rogue, war-hero captain and his backup gunslinger, the unpredictable bad-guy who may backstab his partners or not, and the overall theme of a corrupt governmental power coupled with a healthy dose of sex was awesome. That was great TV! I haven't read any of the Firefly comics, don't want to. Seeing Firefly in graphic-novel form somehow cheapens the experience for me, and I'm a comic fanboy too. I just don't think that's the right medium for that story. The actors made it more vivid than comics ever could.

Haven't seen the new movie Star Trek yet either. I'm going to, but I have an awful feeling Trek's been dumbed-down to make it more appealing to a mass audience. Scares the crap out of me, but I'm not a Trekkie, so no biggie.

Wolverine sucked ass too. What was with those idiotic claws in the mirror. And Deadpool was nothing like I remembered him. Gambit was kinda cool though, kinda-sorta.

Got big hopes for G.I. Joe though. That looks awesome if they've got a good story to go with those special effects. As far as I'm concerned, they could just cut the dialogue and give the whole movie to a two-hour, silent Snake Eyes infiltration and I'd be happy. I know, I know. Sounds really, really, really more dumbed-down than anything else. But God! That'd be so cool.

Huh? What?

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Friday, May 15, 2009 12:47 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Serenity is on SciFi Channel again, 2nd time in 2 days.

Does that not bode well?

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Friday, May 15, 2009 1:39 PM

BYTEMITE


GWEK: Joss already had five seasons of Dollhouse planned out, if not written, with careful finales for each season that both could be cliffhangers but also felt like they had resolution, in case the show were canceled. He already had the pilot episode written when he presented it to Fox, so he was able to use the money normally used for a pilot to pay for the elaborate dollhouse set.

I'd say he put MORE work into Dollhouse than Firefly, because he didn't want it to fail.

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Friday, May 15, 2009 4:57 PM

GWEK


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
GWEK: Joss already had five seasons of Dollhouse planned out, if not written, with careful finales for each season that both could be cliffhangers but also felt like they had resolution, in case the show were canceled. He already had the pilot episode written when he presented it to Fox, so he was able to use the money normally used for a pilot to pay for the elaborate dollhouse set.

I'd say he put MORE work into Dollhouse than Firefly, because he didn't want it to fail.



I respectfully disagree.

And regardless of how much he may have planned, he didn't life with DOLLHOUSE for nearly as long. The idea was born, what, a year ago? Maybe eighteen months?

It's not an idea that percolated in his head for YEARS, as both BUFFY and FIREFLY did.

He may have as much intellectual investment in DOLLHOUSE as the other seasons (and don't forget, he had SEVEN years of FIREFLY planned, not a piddly five ), but I'm pretty sure he didn't give the same EMOTIONAL investment. Just listen to him in interviews. When he talks about FIREFLY, you can tell its something he LOVES.

With DOLLHOUSE? Not so much. Now, that's not to say that he won't give DOLLHOUSE his all, but I just don't see him withdrawing into writing exile if it ends prematurely...

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Friday, May 15, 2009 6:42 PM

BYTEMITE


He told his actors that Firefly would have as long a run as Buffy (7 seasons) but did he have it planned out for seven seasons?

Did he have Buffy planned out that long?

He said outright (as I've seen from newsposts on this site) that he has definitely a five year plan for Dollhouse.

There's nothing wrong with not having it planned out in advance. Lots of good writers let the story evolve, and Firefly was kind of a fun series. Lots you could write impromptu. But I don't think we have any evidence to say that he worked on Firefly MORE. In fact, the documented evidence indicates otherwise.

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Saturday, May 16, 2009 5:15 AM

GWEK


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
He told his actors that Firefly would have as long a run as Buffy (7 seasons) but did he have it planned out for seven seasons?

Did he have Buffy planned out that long?

He said outright (as I've seen from newsposts on this site) that he has definitely a five year plan for Dollhouse.

There's nothing wrong with not having it planned out in advance. Lots of good writers let the story evolve, and Firefly was kind of a fun series. Lots you could write impromptu. But I don't think we have any evidence to say that he worked on Firefly MORE. In fact, the documented evidence indicates otherwise.



"A five year plan" likely means that he has has the broad story arcs mapped out in his mind... and, yes, he's said that he had a seven-year plan for FIREFLY.

I don't know if you write yourself, or if you know anything about writing for TV, so I hope the following will come off as condescending.

As a writer/creator, it's often the story ideas that you live with for a long time that get the most emotional investment. They're the ones you think about and dream of for years (in Joss's case, Buffy and Firefly).

That's why, to some extent, many musicians suffer from the "sophomore curse": you have your entire lifetime to write your first album, but only a year or so to write the second...

When I say Joss had more invested in FIREFLY, I mean that it's a show that, as a creator, he contemplated for quite some time. The same does not appear to be true of DOLLHOUSE.

Which is not to say that shows will lesser emotional investment AREN'T successful. J.J. Abrams, for example, did not originate the concept of LOST and initially turned the show down. Indeed, he only did the show when ABC offered him a huge amount of money and promised to take a look at the pilot for the show he ACTUALLY wanted to do...

As for TV writing: While a good series will have the outline of the three acts mapped out at the beginning (including, likely, rough synopses of key episodes), most later episodes will be written as the series evolves. Episodes in a serialied series like FIREFLY need to be written to follow previous episodes, and since episodes often change during the creative process, sometimes dramatically, episodes written early are simply more episodes that need to be re-written later.


www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Saturday, May 16, 2009 5:35 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Yup, Gwek, I tend to agree. It seems to me that Joss's shows generally have one long "season arc" story line, two or three "sub-arcs", four to six "mini-arcs", and then every episode has its own self-contained episode arc. It's a hell of a juggling act keeping all those balls in the air at once without dropping any of them, but he does tend to pull it off so very well, weaving and intermingling them all until a beautiful tapestry of storytelling comes out as the finished season. And when given the chance, you'll even see one huge overlying story arc that defines the entire series, as with Buffy and Angel. Sadly, we never got to see enough of that with Firefly, but maybe we'll get more of it with Dollhouse. Cross your fingers.

And it's to Joss's great credit that others have followed that lead, most notably Rob Thomas with Veronica Mars, which Joss himself just loved. Sadly, VMars suffered in its final season, where they knew they were under the gun and on the chopping block, and the writing definitely suffered, because it felt like every episode, they were just casting about looking for some storyline that would grab viewers, instead of following their arcs.

Having to rewrite a bit is expected, but writers still want to hew close to their original outlines for their story arcs whenever and wherever possible. The best of them go in with a clear idea of exactly where they're going, and the only things that change are the specific steps they take on their route to that destination. Think of it as mapping out your directions for a cross-country journey; you may hit a detour or two, and it can change the vibe of the trip a bit, but you still want to arrive at the same place when the journey's over.

It's exactly the feel I *DON'T* get from a show like Heroes or Lost, but I definitely DO get from Supernatural and, to a lesser extent, Chuck.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Saturday, May 16, 2009 5:45 AM

BYTEMITE


All of which sounds about how I'd expect and what I've been saying how the story writing process goes. And you weren't condescending (I'm not sure why you'd want to be, or if that was a typo... Have I for some reason earned your contempt for stating these opinions?).

I'm saying that you seem to be basing your belief in Joss not planning Dollhouse out as carefully as Firefly or not putting as much work into the concept because you don't LIKE Dollhouse or the concept. We don't have the evidence to say that, and in fact my impression seems to be the exact opposite.

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Saturday, May 16, 2009 6:02 AM

GWEK


A season, like an episode, is composed of three acts. The first act, "set-up," is usually longer than the other acts (8-10 episodes of the 22-episode season). With an expect like Joss, the themes of the season may not be immediately apparent at this point, but--in hindsight--all the important thematic elements are laid out.

The second act, "complication, confrontation, or conflict," runs through the middle portion of the season and will often have it's own solid story arc while also putting in place the elements for the final episodes. This act is further complicated by the the fact that the middle of the season (hence, a hiatus cliffhanger) often falls within this act, so there's a SECOND story peak in the middle.

The third act, "resolution," is usually the shortest act (4-6 episodes), as well as the most tightly scripted. One episode often leads directly into the next, with each episode ending with a cliffhanger.

For example, Season Seven of Buffy follows this classic structure: act one runs ten episodes, ending with Buffy's first confrontation with the Turok-Han. Act two introduces the Potentials in full force and puts a huge spin on the story with them. The act ends with the dramatic confrontations with Wood and Spike (seven episodes total). The final act is 5 episodes long, beginning with the return of Willow and the introduction of a new enemy in the form of Caleb.

This season actually shows some of the necessary flexibility on the part of the writers. I'm pretty sure that Caleb was created for Nathan Fillion (it seems possible that the original intention was to have Robin Wood serve as the "hand of the First Evil"). These are changes that could only have occurred AFTER the cancellation of FIREFLY midway through the season.

As for Rob Thomas and others following Joss's lead... Sorry, but that structure has been around for a good long time. One could argue that Chris Carter's X-FILES is the show to which most "modern serialized programs" owe their current incarnation. Carter did not originate, but certainly help popularize, the mixing of mythology episodes and standalones (which is where FIREFLY and VERONICA MARS both start out), and also helped pioneer the idea of shooting each episode like a "mini-movie."




www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Saturday, May 16, 2009 6:49 AM

GWEK


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
I'm saying that you seem to be basing your belief in Joss not planning Dollhouse out as carefully as Firefly or not putting as much work into the concept because you don't LIKE Dollhouse or the concept. We don't have the evidence to say that, and in fact my impression seems to be the exact opposite.



Please note that I never said ANYTHING about Joss's planning of DOLLHOUSE (except to point out the reality of the fact that, say, the third season finale isn't already written)... Nor at any point did I address my own opinion of the concept of DOLLHOUSE (so I;m not sure where you're getting that from).

Simply put: Joss didn't spend as much time thinking about (caring about?) DOLLHOUSE before he started as he did with BUFFY or FIREFLY. And the point of noting THAT, is that while Joss may have a significant intellectual investment in DOLLHOUSE, he doesn't necessarily have the same EMOTIONAL investment (Which you an see in the interviews: when FIREFLY was under the gun, he was desperately doing whatever he could to save it; with DOLLHOUSE, he was far more philsophical, sort of "Hope we get to do more, but it's been a good run so far...").

Emotional investment does NOT necessarily equal amount of work (and all of THIS goes back to my original point that if DOLLHOUSE were cancelled, there's no reason to believe that Joss would go through the stages of grief that he seemed to do with FIREFLY).





www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Saturday, May 16, 2009 7:11 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Gwek wrote:


As for Rob Thomas and others following Joss's lead... Sorry, but that structure has been around for a good long time. One could argue that Chris Carter's X-FILES is the show to which most "modern serialized programs" owe their current incarnation. Carter did not originate, but certainly help popularize, the mixing of mythology episodes and standalones (which is where FIREFLY and VERONICA MARS both start out), and also helped pioneer the idea of shooting each episode like a "mini-movie."



Thanks for pointing that out. I wasn't sure if Joss originated the idea, but Buffy was where I first became aware of its structure, and then started noticing it in other shows as well. I didn't really follow X-Files closely enough to have noticed it, but now that you point it out, I can see what you mean, and have to agree.

That kind of structure is both a blessing and a curse, it seems. Those who are into the show are VERY emotionally invested, because they're essenitially in the middle of watching a 22-hour movie. Those who don't watch from the beginning can get very lost and confused, though, and can feel like they never quite catch up, or can't really get that deeply into the story and the deeper arcs, so they tend to give up and say "I don't get it; why do people like this show?" So it can lead to a polarized demographic - those who DEEPLY care about a show, and others who've watched a little here and there, but don't care much at all because they've never really gotten deeply involved in it.

I was in that second category with The X Files; I watched a bit, and enjoyed it, but I couldn't get too crazy about it because I hadn't been into it enough from the beginning. I was very nearly in that category with Veronica Mars; I tried it midway through the second season, because Joss kept posting on Whedonesque how great it was, and I just didn't get it. But then I saw Season 1 DVDs on sale and decided to give it a shot. BAM - I was hooked. And I was a bit heartbroken when it was cancelled. :(

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Saturday, May 16, 2009 9:38 AM

BYTEMITE


Ah. See, my impression of your opinion of Dollhouse has been in your statements about Joss being not as emotionally attached. Without quoting Joss, I could only figure that you were basing it on your impressions of the show and therefore what effort Joss has put into it. Which I have no problem with, because I take stuff Joss says and try to interpret them as how I'd see things myself, and in fact have been doing so during this argument even.

But what you just posted, while I still don't agree that Joss hasn't put as much effort into Dollhouse, I do agree that possibly he's been distancing himself from the get go because he didn't want to be hurt so bad if it was canceled again.

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Saturday, May 16, 2009 10:31 AM

GWEK


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Ah. See, my impression of your opinion of Dollhouse has been in your statements about Joss being not as emotionally attached. Without quoting Joss, I could only figure that you were basing it on your impressions of the show and therefore what effort Joss has put into it. Which I have no problem with, because I take stuff Joss says and try to interpret them as how I'd see things myself, and in fact have been doing so during this argument even.



And see, here's where you get into trouble, trying to guess people's intentions rather than actually listening to what they have to say!

You're speculating on my opinion about something I've not commented on, that I also do not feel is germaine to the point I was trying to make. How Joss feels about DOLLHOUSE and might react to its potential demise has absolutely nothing to do with my personal opinion of DOLLHOUSE, nor should it.

Quote:

But what you just posted, while I still don't agree that Joss hasn't put as much effort into Dollhouse, I do agree that possibly he's been distancing himself from the get go because he didn't want to be hurt so bad if it was canceled again.


Sweet baby Buddha, Batmite, will you actually READ what people write rather than trying to interpret and infer?!?

I didn't say, and I'm still not saying, that Joss didn't put as much "effort" into DOLLHOUSE as other programs. In fact, I LITERALLY said that I was saying something else.

If you're going to respond, please read my actual real words before trying to speculate at what I might or might not be saying based on what I might or might not think about something that might or might not have anything to do with what I have LITERALLY said!

Emotional investment and effort are two VERY different things. I put a lot of effort into my job, but have very little emotional investment. Conversely, my wife and I have a great relationship, so while I have a tremendous emotional investment, one could say we don't have to put a lot of effort into it.

I think Joss did indeed put a lot of EFFORT into DOLLHOUSE, but not a lot of EMOTIONAL INVESTMENT, especially when compared to BUFFY and FIREFLY. If you look at the evolution of DOLLHOUSE (and Joss's role), DOLLHOUSE is essentially one or two steps removed from "work-for-hire," while FIREFLY and BUFFY were labors of love.

Let me state clearly that this has nothing to do with my opinion of DOLLHOUSE, but is based on interviews and history of the show. Indeed, this has been my opinion since BEFORE DOLLHOUSE AIRED.

I hope I've made my viewpoint plain enough.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Sunday, May 17, 2009 8:45 AM

CLJOHNSTON108

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Sunday, May 17, 2009 10:30 AM

BYTEMITE


Definitely good news. Celebration is conducive to the creative process.

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Monday, May 18, 2009 10:13 AM

DMI

Expired, forgotten, spoiled rotten.


Quote:

Originally posted by Sickdude:
Quote:

Originally posted by DMI:
Not seeing a lot of positivity on this thread so I thought I'd chime in that I liked Dollhouse. Was it the best series ever? No. But it has already come a long way since the first eps which really did suck. I was very, very happy with the last few episodes and loved Alan's characters (all 48 of them). I'll be sad to see it go if the "realists" are right and very, very happy if FOX decides to give it a second chance.


DMI, I agree 100%! Thanks for summing it up so nicely. As has been pointed out, while the first five episodes were weak, it definitely improved and certainly qualified as great joss story-tellin' by the end. Tons of twists and turns. I hope it gets a second season as well.



You are welcome, sir!
-e


A blog on the struggles of an unpublished writer: http://www.blogiversity.org/blogs/dmi/default.aspx

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