OTHER SCIENCE FICTION SERIES

Dollhouse: Stage Fright - we get to hear Echo wail like she's on American Idol.

POSTED BY: HAKEN
UPDATED: Friday, March 6, 2009 04:37
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Friday, February 27, 2009 1:22 PM

HAKEN

Likes to mess with stuffs.


On tonight's episode, Echo gets to take her singing imprint out for a spin on stage.

Feel free to post your comments here.

Better yet, post the comments on Shiny Universe.

http://www.shinyuniverse.net/msgthread.aspx?tid=64

You can also rate it here:

http://www.shinyuniverse.net/episode.aspx?eid=70

The subject matter of the episode alone is enough to start an endless debate as to the banality of the series' concept, especially when 'Dollhouse' plays it too serious for its own good.

I really hope we get some funnies in this one.

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Friday, February 27, 2009 4:36 PM

HAKEN

Likes to mess with stuffs.


Consensus so far on the East is that it's not as good as last week's episode.

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Friday, February 27, 2009 5:05 PM

SCHISM


Tonight's episode made me feel like i was watching a show geared towards teenage girls.

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Friday, February 27, 2009 5:10 PM

CELLARDOOR


I didn't like "Stage Fright" as much as "The Target" but I liked the nod of tribute to the Firefly 'verse from the prop department! I dozed off and on through minutes 15-25 or so, but I certainly caught that detail. :) Not sure how to post hidden spoilers yet, so I'll just imply about what I saw for now.

That literal nod/head shake from Echo at the end was also an interesting development. I'm intrigued to see where that goes.

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Friday, February 27, 2009 5:26 PM

PLATONIST


Oh shit, I dozed of last week, I better go get a Venti Latte:)

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Friday, February 27, 2009 7:22 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Quote:

Originally posted by CellarDoor:
I didn't like "Stage Fright" as much as "The Target" but I liked the nod of tribute to the Firefly 'verse from the prop department! I dozed off and on through minutes 15-25 or so, but I certainly caught that detail. :) Not sure how to post hidden spoilers yet, so I'll just imply about what I saw for now.



When you post, there's some text on the left, right underneath the picture, that says quote [ quote ]...[ /quote ] and such, but without the spaces. The spoiler tags are there, too.

Anyway, I must have missed that part. What prop?

I thought some of the pop singer's lines were pretty interesting. When she and Echo were in the dressing room, ans she was talking about how she had to have an attitude, but not too much. It was a kind of mirror to the situation with the dolls - Rayna (?) has to try to be the perfect cipher for her fans, and the dolls are actually "perfect" for their clients. And, when she talked about wanting to be free through death, and how she doesn't feel anything, that to me was really meaningful.

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Friday, February 27, 2009 7:28 PM

CELLARDOOR


Ok, here's what I believe I noticed (but I was sleepy from a long day so I may have imagined it, wanting to see a fun Joss connection. Maybe others can help me confirm):

Select to view spoiler:


The paramedics in the ambulance carrying Ballard, two of them, were wearing decidedly blue latex gloves. Two by two, hands of blue, anyone?



Small detail but whatcha think?

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Friday, February 27, 2009 7:53 PM

ROCKETJOCK


Sorry, Cellardoor, but those

Select to view spoiler:


gloves

are real-world

Select to view spoiler:


medical equipment.

As a Jossverse reference, they only count half-points at best.

"You can't kill a ghost." -- Echo

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Friday, February 27, 2009 7:59 PM

CELLARDOOR


C'mon, 3/4 points at least? ^_~ The props people certainly didn't have to use that color. White/clear is more common. The reason I noted it is the way the camera zoomed in and focused on them in that shot so much. Maybe you're right though. :)

I'm seeing some stronger character connections in this episode. Dr. Saunders seems interesting in particular at this point.

Select to view spoiler:


Did she used to be the best Active out there, back in the day and before Echo came along?

I haven't researched much; anyone know what number Joss intended this episode to be? Guess we may not find out until the DVD season release.

Since I hadn't seen the "intended pilot" info, I was stunned by the revelation that

Select to view spoiler:


Victor is an Active! I knew he was weird, but still... I'm not great at predicting stuff like that.


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Friday, February 27, 2009 8:26 PM

STOWEAWAY


Quote:

Originally posted by CellarDoor:

That literal nod/head shake from Echo at the end was also an interesting development. I'm intrigued to see where that goes.



You saw that too, right? I didn't just imagine it?

My husband & I thought the episode was just winding down and then that. We both looked at each other and said, "Joss is a genius".

I really liked tonight's episode. You gotta admit, the plot twists were not expected.

What did you say to yourself when

Select to view spoiler:


Victor got up from the Dollhouse chair?



That was a "no way!" moment for me. It starts out looking generic and predictable. But Whedon doesn't disappoint on the surprises and developing characters.

I'm convinced. Now I'll be dedicated to Friday night TV for only the second time in my life.

-------------------------------------------------
Check out http://www.americasfunniesttshirts.com for hilarious shirts at a great price.

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Friday, February 27, 2009 8:37 PM

CELLARDOOR


Quote:

Originally posted by Stoweaway:

What did you say to yourself when

Select to view spoiler:


Victor got up from the Dollhouse chair?



That was a "no way!" moment for me. It starts out looking generic and predictable. But Whedon doesn't disappoint on the surprises and developing characters.

I'm convinced. Now I'll be dedicated to Friday night TV for only the second time in my life.

-------------------------------------------------
Check out http://www.americasfunniesttshirts.com for hilarious shirts at a great price.



Probably the effect of how I responded could be translated to Mal's "...Huh." in general, but my actual response was a literal double-take, drop-jaw "dtukphurklmph" something or other. I'm pretty convinced my own self.

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Friday, February 27, 2009 8:38 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by CellarDoor:

That literal nod/head shake from Echo at the end was also an interesting development. I'm intrigued to see where that goes.


Roger that.

Joss tryin to deprogram MKULTRAs and suicidal teens? Less humor in good works.

I wonder if Cathy O'Brien and Kelly are watching? OBrien wrote about the headshake thing with Louise Mandrell...
www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=cathy+o%27brien+mandrell&aq=f&oq=


CIA sexslave singer Louise Mandrell and big sis

Was Echo singing a headnod to the Mandrells?


"It'll simmer your headmeat down to a bubbling brainy fondu."
-Eliza Dushku advert for Dollhouse



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Friday, February 27, 2009 8:56 PM

CELLARDOOR


I hadn't put two and two together about the show's complexity yet, but I just read this insightful analysis over at http://whedonesque.com/comments/19284 :

I'm totally loving 'Dollhouse'! And I've come up with a theory about the cheesy plot points, they are so we will look beyond the standalone nature of the engagements and focus on the story arc about the actives and the Dollhouse itself.

The first episode about the kidnapped little girl who might get abused (and the negotiator who had been) was really about how not all the actives were volunteers, some were kidnapped, and all are abused.

The second episode with the 'Most Dangerous Game' was about how all the actives are being forced to play out the games (many of them dangerous physically, but all could be dangerous emotionally) others set for them.

And tonight with Echo being body guard mirrored Boyd guarding her, as well as everything about prisons and freedom.

Posted by embers

Wish I'd thought of that! It makes sense though, and I only hope people stick around for multiple episodes to get the flavor of what's starting to take place.

[Edited to remove long, unnecessary spoiler tags.]

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Friday, February 27, 2009 11:27 PM

SINGATE


The highlight of the show for me was when

Select to view spoiler:


Echo wanged Beyonce in the face. Made the audience think Echo would just walk away after laying on the guilt trip. Wrong. The knockout was a great way of saying "no seriously, you are going to help her".



One aspect of the show that I admire is that Joss has found actors who can all pull off convincing foreign accents. We got two great ones tonight from Sierra and Victor. I also enjoyed Eliza throwing in some of her real life Bawston accent towards the end. I was expecting her to toss out at least one "wicked hard" before the end of the episode.

There are quite a few similarities between characters on this series and characters from other vehicles helmed by Mr. Whedon. There are two in particular that have really jumped out at me. The Dollhouse director reminds me of the woman who worked at Wolfram & Hart, Lilah if memory serves. This new character doesn't command the same presence yet but I definitely see similarities. The second is more of a vibe for me. For some reason everytime Sierra appears I immediately think of Kaylee. They do share some physical characteristics but beyond that I get this feeling Sierra is the kind of sweet that induces diabetes.

_________________________________________________

We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Saturday, February 28, 2009 12:50 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Yes, that "nod" said so much and I asked myself "Does Sierra remember what took place during the assignment?" We know Echo is becoming self-aware but that head nod makes you go Hmmmmm.

When the plot twist happened I thought "Now, this is getting interesting" At first I thought the character was a throwaway just something to push the story along. Was I ever pleasantly surprised.

This ep was a parallel commentary on a couple of different levels. What I saw was comments on the DH, Britney Spears, Beyonce, etc. But also between Rayna's life and that of the DH. The need to be perfect for their audience and what Rayna really thought about her fans.

I thought it would be a straight "bodyguard" story where the "star" learns a great lesson about herself and her fans and how valuable they are. But it went in a whole different direction. We also get some more clues about the DH and the people that work there. DeWitt is getting more interesting. So is Boyd and the good doctor. I'm still not sure about Topher though. Where does he fit in all this?

Joss is laying the Reese's Pieces candies along the way in just the right order. It's up to us to pick up and continue to follow to the door with the prize. Patience my fellow travelers, patience.

This is gonna be fun!

SGG

Tawabawho?

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Saturday, February 28, 2009 7:36 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


First off I have to ask why is it necessary to black out "spoiler" information concerning an episode that has already aired? If someone has not seen it yet then they shouldn't be reading this thread.

We've been have a pretty heated argument about this subject on my board, and that seems to be the consensus. The only things that should be considered spoilers are things you've heard or read about upcoming episodes, or else mention of some other show entirely. I was spoiled for a lot of events in Buffy and Angel (which I didn't watch until after Firefly) on this and other boards. The spoiler discussion on my board began when someone dropped a huge Angel spoiler concerning Amy Acker in the middle of the Dollhouse thread. My son has yet to watch the final season of Angel and was upset about reading that.

As for the blue gloves being a nod to Firefly, I can honestly say I didn't even notice that, but I did pick up another reference to the Ariel episode. One of the medics mentioned that the patient was "cyanotic."

Overall, I thought the ep was a bit weak and cliched, but a few good moments shone through. The acknowledgment between Echo and Sierra that there are some things they do not want their handlers to know is one of those. The Victor reveal did surprise me, because I thought it was going to be Miracle Laurie's character to be the one who was keeping an eye on Ballard, and of course that might still turn out to be the case.

I like Boyd since he seems to be the only one who has any concern for Echo's welfare or questions the validity of the Dollhouse's activity. I haven't yet decided what I think about Topher, but I do think he is entirely too proud of his ability since he seems to be as in the dark as any of them concerning the dangers of the technology.



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Saturday, February 28, 2009 1:50 PM

LISSA


Quote:

Originally posted by ecgordon:
First off I have to ask why is it necessary to black out "spoiler" information concerning an episode that has already aired? If someone has not seen it yet then they shouldn't be reading this thread.

We've been have a pretty heated argument about this subject on my board, and that seems to be the consensus. The only things that should be considered spoilers are things you've heard or read about upcoming episodes, or else mention of some other show entirely. I was spoiled for a lot of events in Buffy and Angel (which I didn't watch until after Firefly) on this and other boards. The spoiler discussion on my board began when someone dropped a huge Angel spoiler concerning Amy Acker in the middle of the Dollhouse thread. My son has yet to watch the final season of Angel and was upset about reading that.





I agree that info about eps that have already aired should not be spoiler tagged. This caused some confusion for me concerning that same Amy Acker spoiler you referenced! The day before it originally aired, I was reading a thread on fff.net in which events in previously aired episodes were being spoiler tagged. I unwittingly highlighted that major Amy spoiler for the night's episode, assuming it was yet another previous event. ...NOT HAPPY.

~lissa

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Saturday, February 28, 2009 4:50 PM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by CellarDoor:
That literal nod/head shake from Echo at the end was also an interesting development. I'm intrigued to see where that goes.


Actually, I didn't much care for that nod/shake. I mean, I was taken by surprise, pleasantly, when Echo suddenly did her "Shoulder to the wheel" thingy at the end of last week's episode. But again with the gesture of remembrance?? The second time around it's not subtle any more (and even detracts a bit from the first time). Now, I'm sorry to sound a mite harsh here, but I expected a bit more from Firefly-Joss in this regard.

Also, did DeWitt really have to spell it out why Echo actually acted in accordance with the mission parameters? Literally dangling death in front of the girl pop star, to make her realize she wanted to live, after all, did Joss really believe we needed that spelled out for us? (Or was that a Fox exec meddling?) And what's with Victor also asking whether he fell asleep? That gets a mite fake/forced, too.

Then there's Sierra. I dunno, she looks like plastic. Attractive, from certain angles, but I just can't shake the 'Cherry 2000' flashbacks (and at least Cherry was supposed to be a real robot). A 'Cherry 2000' sans the memory chip, that is; because even when loaded, Sierra still appears awfully empty.

What can I say? Talking of fandom, I'm still a fan of Eliza. Still a fan of Joss. And still a fan of Dollhouse. But the show is supposed to get better with each episode. And when it looks like 'things are going to get much, much worse,' then that gives me reason to worry some. Okay, maybe this ep wasn't really much, much worse; but it weren't as good as the last two. And that cannot be a good sign.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Saturday, February 28, 2009 5:56 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by asarian:
Also, did DeWitt really have to spell it out why Echo actually acted in accordance with the mission parameters?...



You know, I was kind of thinking that too. But, that's how they chose to interpret it. It's possible, perhaps even likely, that Echo recognized her friend from the Dollhouse and was honestly more interested in saving her protecting the diva.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Saturday, February 28, 2009 6:05 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Quote:

Originally posted by asarian:
Actually, I didn't much care for that nod/shake. I mean, I was taken by surprise, pleasantly, when Echo suddenly did her "Shoulder to the wheel" thingy at the end of last week's episode. But again with the gesture of remembrance?? The second time around it's not subtle any more (and even detracts a bit from the first time). Now, I'm sorry to sound a mite harsh here, but I expected a bit more from Firefly-Joss in this regard.


Joss has to work within the parameters of the network's notes and suggestions. If he doesn't he wouldn't be able to do the show at all. If he had not listened to the network about a rewrite on the Firefly pilot it is possible all that we would have had was an unaired version of "Serenity." Fox said they wanted the first few episodes to be more episodic than serial so it is inevitable there will be a few things that seem repetitious.

I've said this several times over the years concerning other shows, but I guess I have to say it again. I think that the fans are sometimes as harsh on a show as the networks are. Everyone wants a payoff right out of the gate, not enough people have enough patience to let things develop.

The more you bad mouth the show the fewer people will be inclined to check it out in the coming weeks. The rumors of a premature cancellation will be a self-fulfilling prophecy.



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Saturday, February 28, 2009 7:49 PM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by ecgordon:
s has to work within the parameters of the network's notes and suggestions. If he doesn't he wouldn't be able to do the show at all.


As I indicated in my own post, I kinda expected the hand of Fox behind some of these decisions. And it's their right to do so, of course. As it is mine to say I don't like such meddling.

Quote:


I've said this several times over the years concerning other shows, but I guess I have to say it again. I think that the fans are sometimes as harsh on a show as the networks are. Everyone wants a payoff right out of the gate, not enough people have enough patience to let things develop.


For one, I say fans, more so than most other folks, perhaps, understand how critical the first few episodes are. If we all knew Joss had been given a carte blanche to make whatever he wants, for as long as he wants, I bet you'd see a lot more relaxes reactions. Also, don't be confusing 'concerned' with harsh. Fans, like yours truly, tend to take every possible fault, put it under a magnifying glass, and extensively voice said concern, because they are, well, concerned. :) That's not the same as being negative.

Quote:


The more you bad mouth the show the fewer people will be inclined to check it out in the coming weeks. The rumors of a premature cancellation will be a self-fulfilling prophecy.


You credit me with an overabundance of power. Wish I had it, really, and Firefly would never have been cancelled, I assure you. :)

I'm also a firm believer in honesty. And, conversely, have never been one to just cheer on a show just to support Joss. And I doubt he'd want us to, either. Besides, wouldn't make much of a difference, either. It would be like everyone not saying the Emperor has no clothes on, which might be the nice thing to do, but the execs at Fox would confront him with that harsh reality regardless. You know how Fox Mulder (no pun intended) always says: "The truth is out there."? Well, it is. And truth is that this week's episode was weaker than the previous two. I can't influence that. All I can do is say that it has me worried some. I want at least 14 episodes, so there'll be enough material for a DVD/Blu-Ray, which I'll buy promptly.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Saturday, February 28, 2009 8:04 PM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
You know, I was kind of thinking that too. But, that's how they chose to interpret it. It's possible, perhaps even likely, that Echo recognized her friend from the Dollhouse and was honestly more interested in saving her protecting the diva.


Good point. One doesn't preclude the other, though. I'm fair certain Echo pulled a wee reverse-psychology on the Diva. If, for no other reason, than that I believe it's a necessary plot element: the whole "Exceeding one's programming" thingy, as Data would call it. Echo recognizing her Dollhouse mate is definitely possible, and indeed even likely, and a continuation of another vital theme: that you can never really wipe a slate clean.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Saturday, February 28, 2009 10:41 PM

DREAMTROVE


1. Kudos for the Cherry 2000 ref.
2. Fox exerts no real creative influence. As long as you give them man bites shark, that's all they care about.
3. Dollhouse is headed for a shallow watery grave, alas, but it's not our fault. I think if anything, people who want to save the show should post on Fox's own boards weakpoints in the show that they should correct.
4. That group is 3 is ceasing to include me. Sorry.

The show suffers from a lot of problems it doesn't know it has:

5. The Borodins are an offensive stereotype. I know someone who gave up on the show at that point at they weren't Russian.
6. Echo and Sierra aren't carrying the roles. This was a very ambitious project, play a different character every week. It imho failed. It's not entirely the girls, it's also the writers. To create a very real character. You should be mourning the death of the character at the end of the ep, but you're not.
7. The thing with the FBI is still poorly done, so far I'm only convinced that the guy is a moron.
8. The major major flaw is using these tired storylines, without any sort of major twist to them.
9. We still don't have a lot of definition for most of the characters, people can't even remember their names.
10. Joss' personal cliches are eating holes in the show. Female characters are never strong and independent, but always need a male shoulder to lie on, they're never fully feminine, but always just a little bit butch, and there's an air of PC I find irritating.

To use a Joss line, the subtext here is rapidly becoming the text. People aren't wrong about their above readings, imho, that's just not all that complicated. An active isn't good for very long, she tells us in the first ep that you can't wipe a slate clean, eventually she'll become a composite of these characters, which would be more interesting if they were different from one another.

What I'm watching here is basically quantum leap, not just because this was a QL ep., but also thematically. It's losing its LFN element, or its fading away.

I don't know what can save the show, not sure it should be, I'm not a fan of tv, I don't even have on. But if someone did want to save it, some critiquing of weakpoints on the Fox board might help.

Mostly what I sense is Joss' ego. I think he needs other people on board to add depth to the show. Faith, Giles, Spike, Willow were brilliant characters, River was sheer brilliance.

It's characters like River Tam and Adrian Monk that make it impossible for me to watch Walter on Fringe. Having been there, I can tell you the first two there are really on target. I think Sarah Connor and Cameron come close.

So far, for me though, dollhouse is fluff with some dangling mystery threads.

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Sunday, March 1, 2009 1:21 AM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
2. Fox exerts no real creative influence. As long as you give them man bites shark, that's all they care about.


Or "Girl bites shark," rather, as you so astutely observed. :)

Still, I was kinda hoping FOX is exerting a lot of creative influence, cuz I'm so much more comfortable with dissing them than I am with entertaining the thought that the writers (= Joss) might be the cause.

Quote:


6. Echo and Sierra aren't carrying the roles. This was a very ambitious project, play a different character every week. It imho failed. It's not entirely the girls, it's also the writers. To create a very real character. You should be mourning the death of the character at the end of the ep, but you're not.


I've pretty much given up on Sierra (sorry). Eliza I still believe in. Especially because her first role as professional negotiator was so well done. Echo had undergone a true Verwandlung there: her half-nerdy mannerisms (the way she was counting down with her fingers and such), the tone of her voice, her entire attitude, it was so radically different from the standard Echo, that I was rather impressed. But in "Stage Fright" Eliza acted essentially not much different from the way she did in "The Target." Of course, like you say, to write, and play, a real and different character each time is pretty difficult. And maybe it can't be done, even.

Quote:


7. The thing with the FBI is still poorly done, so far I'm only convinced that the guy is a moron.


Effectively, the guy is still acting out his stubborn BSG 'Helo' persona (talk about never really being able to wipe a slate clean!). Though likeable, perhaps, he's very much a walking cliche, too.

Quote:


9. We still don't have a lot of definition for most of the characters, people can't even remember their names.


Sad, but true. Now, I like Dr. Saunders, for instance, but still had to pay the wiki a quick visit to recall she's called Claire. So, why is that? Good question. Maybe because the Dollhouse folks are jerks? (Apart from Dr. Saunders, who strikes me as a rather gentle person). Or because the bunch is too stereotype? Both DeWitt and the security dude in his very fine suit are 'Dr. Evil' type characatures, really. And Topher, while perhaps a notch above the other two, is still everything from being likeable. So, essentially, it all comes down to Echo and Boyd (and we didn't see much of the latter, either, last ep). So, it's basically just Eliza for now. And she can't carry the entire show alone.

Also, the devil is in the details. Remember how 'all blue' on the brain-scan monitors meant fear? Well, they were on 'all blue' again this ep. No meaning this time; just an oops. Like Topher's chess board in the first two episodes. I know, the chess thingy is a bit of a recurring pet peeve of mine (they really botched that in TSCC too), but they had set up absurd positions (pawns on row 1 or 8, for example). Well, at least someone woke up someone about that, as they straightened it out this ep. Only the other day I read someone found a possible continuation error in Firefly, after all these years! I mean, it's obvious Dollhouse has not been given the same amount of consideration, detail wise. What that means, you tell me; but it can't be for the better.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Sunday, March 1, 2009 2:56 AM

SERGEANTX


I wanna see more Dr. Horrible.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, March 1, 2009 5:16 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


The main point I was trying to make is that we should have patience enough to get past these first few episodes where we know FOX exerted their influence in order to get to the ones that show more of Joss' original intentions for the show.

Since all thirteen (or maybe just twelve?) episodes have been filmed it is too late to tell FOX what changes we would like to see. If it gets renewed for any more then that would be an option.



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Sunday, March 1, 2009 8:00 AM

DREAMTROVE


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ASARIAN
Or "Girl bites shark," rather, as you so astutely observed. :)



Girls in bikinis wrestle sharks for the chance for one of them to be stranded on a desert island with 20 young men from whom she will choose a mate by trying every one of them out, but only after they prove themselves by monkeybarring across a swamp full of crocodiles on a ropeladder which has just been set on fire so the fire burns behind them...

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Still, I was kinda hoping FOX is exerting a lot of creative influence, cuz I'm so much more comfortable with dissing them than I am with entertaining the thought that the writers (= Joss) might be the cause.


And yet, my gut tells me. The pitfalls of murdoch, as described above, aren't what I'm seeing, it's the pitfalls of Joss. Everyone is a team, and when they lose their team, there is a problem. Exhibit A) Ridley Scott, Exhibit B) George Lucas...

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I've pretty much given up on Sierra (sorry). Eliza I still believe in. Especially because her first role as professional negotiator was so well done. Echo had undergone a true Verwandlung there: her half-nerdy mannerisms (the way she was counting down with her fingers and such), the tone of her voice, her entire attitude, it was so radically different from the standard Echo, that I was rather impressed. But in "Stage Fright" Eliza acted essentially not much different from the way she did in "The Target." Of course, like you say, to write, and play, a real and different character each time is pretty difficult. And maybe it can't be done, even.



Eliza lost me on the negotiator. It was the amount of makeover that was require, the glasses, contrived. This is standard hollywood cover for an actor who can't make the radical shift needed to carry the role. When no makeup or wardrobe is used to show a change of character, and it's completely believable, you never even pause, that's first class talent. That's Summer as Cameron, or River.

Eliza doesn't suck. She's talented, and she's hot. But the problem comes from the role created, a total personality change every ep. That requires a total mastery of talent. Playing the staff of dollhouse? That doesn't require a lot of talent. Amy is just imho a flat out better actress, and she's in a role that really doesn't require it. I think he had trouble getting her.

If I were Joss, and who I knew I could get was Eliza, and Alan, and sometimes Amy, the show I would have made would be Faith, the vampire slayer. People love the character, and I think Joss had already written a storyline for it, the show was canned when Eliza took the Tru Calling role.

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Effectively, the guy is still acting out his stubborn BSG 'Helo' persona (talk about never really being able to wipe a slate clean!). Though likeable, perhaps, he's very much a walking cliche, too.


You don't say, to say nothing of his doubting thomases or his stereotypical assailants

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9. We still don't have a lot of definition for most of the characters, people can't even remember their names.

Sad, but true. Now, I like Dr. Saunders, for instance, but still had to pay the wiki a quick visit to recall she's called Claire.



Yeah, I would have had to also, Claire, huh. Too many Claires at one time, I suppose can't be helped, except when you know your audience is already watching a show whose main character is named Claire, I'll let it slide.


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So, why is that? Good question.


With a sad and short answer: Writing.
A lot of the art of writing is a series of mechanical skills that all writers learn. It's why we have all these books and go to all these workshops, it's to learn little tricks like "how to get instant character recognition" and "how to hook the audience on page one" and so many other things. Joss can write, we all know this, but we also know that, or we hope so :), but there's a shortage of skill set. It's not a clever plot device, it's bad writing. We see scenes between characters, we should not be able to leave those scenes without knowing at the very least their names and their role in the company, and probably at least one other character quirk about each of them.

In buffy, just go to hulu, watch the pilot ep. or any ep yet posted from the first 2 or 3 seasons, and then think about everything you know about each of the characters. The most common thing I heard first time buffy watchers say after seeing an ep was "I had trouble sometimes telling buffy and anya apart." If they had watch a later season ep. They never said "I had trouble telling buffy from that girl with the weird demon thing going on, and buffy's friend, what's her name with the red hair, what's her deal with the geeky guy. And the old mentor guy, what's up with him?"

A lot of time, credit is given to the boss when something was written by an underling, it's hard to tell where the writing fell apart, but it fell apart somewhere.

On sarah connor I can give you first and last names of the entire cast except for jessie and riley, I don't know if they have last names, I didn't look it up. I can give you names of almost everyone on heroes, but only one. And this is not an episode count thing. Think of this.

Buffy the Vampire slayer, just sticking to the first three seasons

Here are some characters that appear in only one episode and without looking it up not only do you know their names, but you know them well enough to put them in fanfic

Gwendolyn Post
Ford
Ampata
Syd
Balthazar
Natalie French
The Hyena kids, okay, I can't name them individually. I probably could if I thought about it enough.
Sheila
Marcy (Ross was it? Can't remember)
Billy
Lyle Gorch, I think Tector gets a second appearance
Mother Bazore (sp?)
(double eps count?? if so, Jesse, The judge)

Stopping now, no I didn't look any of those up, and I could go on, some of these are minor characters. Can you name the entire fishy swim team, the coach and the nurse, or the lunch lady.

So, dollhouse has left me able to name Victor and Rayna, as well as Echo, and Sierra, and Dr. (Claire) Saunders. And a lot of background bodies.

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Both DeWitt and the security dude in his very fine suit are 'Dr. Evil' type characatures, really.


You came up with DeWitt, good call, who the hell is DeWitt? If anyone is coming up as "security dude" after three eps it's an issue.

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And Topher


And Topher! Another name! I'll have to hit the google.

You're two characters and a wicked wikied Claire ahead of me.

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Boyd


Ah, Boyd is the handler dude, I should have been able to come up with this. It jogged my memory. Did you have to look any of these up?

You know enough about them to write a fanfic about them? I mean, spin a random buffy episode, and pull out random characters, and compare.

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So, it's basically just Eliza for now. And she can't carry the entire show alone.


No, she can't. I think we should see more actives.

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Also, the devil is in the details. Remember how 'all blue' on the brain-scan monitors meant fear? Well, they were on 'all blue' again this ep. No meaning this time; just an oops.


Also, it was nonsense to begin with. You have a fear center in your brain. You can't feel fear in your medula, or in your language center, or your visual cortex. You can feel it in you HPA, and nowhere else.

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Like Topher's chess board in the first two episodes. I know, the chess thingy is a bit of a recurring pet peeve of mine (they really botched that in TSCC too), but they had set up absurd positions (pawns on row 1 or 8, for example).


Sweet! I didn't catch that. I like the more subtle chess set ups that could never arise, these can be clever, because they're hard to construct. More commonly, the random chess setup is just in a position where someone is in check, or pawn takes queen and white wins the game, and this is supposed to be some major chess match that goes on for days. Pawns in rows 1 and 8 are precious. I'm really lacking focus. Time to take some more drugs. I wonder if there's a 5ht1a antagonist which would cause a receptor proliferation due to forced insensitivity. Damn I wished I could be alone long enough to try this. People watching you always notice the mood swings and stop you from doing what needs to be done sometimes. I can be calm, by myself, with a little meditation, where's a monestary which a chem lab when you need one.

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Well, at least someone woke up someone about that, as they straightened it out this ep. Only the other day I read someone found a possible continuation error in Firefly, after all these years!


Oh, do tell.

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I mean, it's obvious Dollhouse has not been given the same amount of consideration, detail wise. What that means, you tell me; but it can't be for the better.


Sloppy writing, some people on board without so much talent, usually these people come from hollywood. And yeah, TSCC doesn't compare to firefly in neatness of construction by any means, OTOH, it only has to compete with what's on right now.

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Mei-mei


I know this one ;)
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ECGORDON
The main point I was trying to make is that we should have patience enough to get past these first few episodes where we know FOX exerted their influence in order to get to the ones that show more of Joss' original intentions for the show.



We know what pressure fox exerted also, though. girl bites shark. IMHO, Joss should have written girl bites shark into his pilot, I mean, when you deal with an editor at Randomhouse or Scholastic, you have to play to their whims. If you don't want to play to anyone's whims, you post it on your blog. It's the nature of the game.

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Since all thirteen (or maybe just twelve?) episodes have been filmed


I don't doubt you at all, but I want to know where you're finding this info on shooting schedules.

Used to be only 6 eps were filmed at the season open of a TV show, and then one every 2 weeks, which means they would be filming ep. 8 right now, provided they had the go ahead to do so. Of course, I gave up on trying to work in television 10 years ago, and the model may very well have changed.

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Sunday, March 1, 2009 10:31 AM

OPPYH


Let's face it, Dollhouse is no Firefly.

Ok, Firefly was pure flawless gold.
It was a must see show every Friday night. I simply could not miss an episode. If I wasn't home I'd tape it.
Also I read something about Fox being more casual on the ratings issue. We will probably see a second season of Dollhouse.
I never thought I'd say this but: I really don't care if Dollhouse continues.


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Sunday, March 1, 2009 1:54 PM

DREAMTROVE


I'm going to bury this one and stop critiquing dollhouse. There's not a lot to critique.

Dollhouse is Quantum Leap. A lot of people liked QL, probably a lot of people here, it's fine for what it is. It's not my sort of thing, and it's definitely not Firefly, but I guess we have to stop assuming it's trying to be. It is what it is, for those people who like it, enjoy. For Joss' sake I hope it does well, for our sake, I hope that if he earns some creds for it that he uses that to make something else revolutionary some day. This show is not that show, but no one said it had to be. I just made an assumption that it was going to be, and upon reflection I have no idea why I made that assumption.

On one side, Quantum Leap is social commentary with no strings attached, no need to revisit the idea later, but in its core I think it's lifestyle tourism. Here's an hour in the life of a lifestyle set.

So, best thing for dollhouse is probably not what we'd want, but maybe Echo as a member of a gang, an underground club scene, an islamic terrorist, a communist party oligarch, etc.

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Sunday, March 1, 2009 2:16 PM

BYTEMITE


Singate: You know, Kaylee was originally supposed to have oriental ancestry? You may be right about Sierra if that's the vibe you're getting.

Joss said that it's episode six that's the doozie, and if that's true, then I'm sticking around at least until then.

This episode takes the music industry to an unexpected place, and the confrontation therapy bit was pretty intense, in addition to all the "who was Echo really doing that for?" questions.

I have to agree with everyone, not as good as the Target. But does that technically matter? two episodes doesn't yet a downward trend make. Maybe we're all a little too tense and worried, so we're immediately concerned we may be facing the worst case scenario?

I say give it time. Not all episodes have to be brilliant. The Train Job, Shindig, and Safe didn't necessarily capture any audiences when they ran, but they had at least some moments, and look at what we got later. Hopefully Dollhouse will last long enough that we can get to that point as well, and if Dollhouse does well, Joss does well, and can maybe start thinking about Firefly and Serenity again.

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Sunday, March 1, 2009 2:35 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST


The Dollhouse is proving to be a curiosity for me. I'm finding the 'missions' that Echo is being sent on as totally redundant. Is anyone else feeling this?
I'm curious as to why the show isn't actually dealing with the characters within the Dollhouse? I mean Amy Acker has been looking like a sour puss for three episodes now and no one seems bothered. I find this strange and disjointed.

This last episode was maybe the most difficult to watch and yet strangely, gave me the best sense of urgency about the episode to come...and it lasted two seconds at the finalé! Curious how Joss&Co can do that to me....

So far Boyd is excellent and entirely holding the premise together. I also like the cute next door neighbour to the FBI agent who I think is more than she seems (at least I hope she is more than she seems) Otherwise I'm not relating to anyone.

As this is Joss I will absolutely give it my full attention but I must admit I am severely missing Joss' sense of humour which I now realise has been the main reason why I find his shows so engaging. Without that element Dollhouse is proving less accessible than I would have thought.


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Sunday, March 1, 2009 3:15 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
On one side, Quantum Leap is social commentary with no strings attached, no need to revisit the idea later, but in its core I think it's lifestyle tourism. Here's an hour in the life of a lifestyle set.



I think there's a good deal more than lifestyle tourism going on here, and the potential for much more. I loved Quantum Leap, and it wasn't about the leaps - it was about Sam, his relationship with Al and his longing for "home". Similarly, I can see Dollhouse becoming a very poignant story about a girl regaining her identity.

That said, the 'leaps' on QL were entertaining enough in their own right that waiting for the meaty character bits was worthwhile. Not sure I can say that for Dollhouse yet. They either need to ramp up the stuff about Echo's backstory and the mystery of Alpha, or make the "engagements" considerably more interesting. So far they've just been warmed over CSI.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, March 1, 2009 5:26 PM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Eliza lost me on the negotiator. It was the amount of makeover that was require, the glasses, contrived. This is standard hollywood cover for an actor who can't make the radical shift needed to carry the role. When no makeup or wardrobe is used to show a change of character, and it's completely believable, you never even pause, that's first class talent. That's Summer as Cameron, or River.


Well, Eliza still sold me on the negotiator. But, lest there be any confusion, Eliza ain't no Summer. Never could be. Also, the role of River alone is simply too ingenious to top.

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Playing the staff of dollhouse? That doesn't require a lot of talent. Amy is just imho a flat out better actress, and she's in a role that really doesn't require it. I think he had trouble getting her.


For some reason I really like Amy Acker. Dunny why. Probably exactly because you feel she's capable of so much more than just looking sour. I wouldn't mind seeing a whole ep devoted to her. Nor would I mind seeing the Dolls interact inside the Dollhouse (for longer than the space of a schoolboy's wink, that is). Like following them for a day. I mean, they wake up, have breakfast, swim, and do what? Do it with subtlety -- of which Joss is more than capable, of course -- and you can lay the groundwork for a whole psychological 'emergence' thingy, where you get to see the Dolls in their various stages of 'awakening'. Dr. Saunders interacting with them would be a nice touch, too. But let's give it time. Who knows? Maybe Joss already has such things planned.

I think the 'problem' with Joss is that he's big a name, but not so big yet that he can write his own ticket (like George Lucas). If, as he said in a recent interview, he doesn't get approached by a person in a suit, he can't go make Firefly -- or any other project he has in mind -- on his own, or without interference. That's what networks are for: to get in a man's way.

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Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
As this is Joss I will absolutely give it my full attention but I must admit I am severely missing Joss' sense of humour which I now realise has been the main reason why I find his shows so engaging. Without that element Dollhouse is proving less accessible than I would have thought.


Giving FOX due credit, they were actually the ones that insisted Joss bring more humor to Firefly. They initially thought it was too dark (more like Joss made Mal in Serenity). And, I must admit, the humor really is a big thing for me in Firefly, too. Joss is very witty, we all know that. You only need to read his blogs to realize that wit is a part of this man's very existence. With Dollhouse, of course, it's probably harder to make it funnier. But I do miss that aspect of Joss' genius, yes.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
You came up with DeWitt, good call, who the hell is DeWitt? If anyone is coming up as "security dude" after three eps it's an issue.


DeWitt is Adelle, the woman who interviewed Echo at the start of the first episode, a sort of James Bond's 'M' wannabe (who thinks slapping on a Brittish accent makes hers a good role). Presumably, she's the one in charge of the Dollhouse.

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Sweet! I didn't catch that. I like the more subtle chess set ups that could never arise, these can be clever, because they're hard to construct. More commonly, the random chess setup is just in a position where someone is in check, or pawn takes queen and white wins the game, and this is supposed to be some major chess match that goes on for days. Pawns in rows 1 and 8 are precious.


The usual way to go about it, is to just use positions of existing (famous) games, like they did in Blade Runner. Haven't heard it officially, but I'm as good as certain they played out a game between Anderssen and Kieseritzky, London, 1851:

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4 Qh4+ 4.Kf1 b5 5.Bxb5 Nf6 6.Nf3 Qh6 7.d3 Nh5 8.Nh4 Qg5 9.Nf5 c6 10.g4 Nf6 11.Rg1 cxb5 12.h4 Qg6 13.h5 Qg5 14.Qf3 Ng8 15.Bxf4 Qf6 16.Nc3 Bc5 17.Nd5 Qxb2 18.Bd6 Qxa1+ 19.Ke2 Bxg1 20.e5 Na6 21.Nxg7+ Kd8 22.Qf6+ Nxf6 23.Be7# 1-0

Of course, after 22. Qf6+, Dr. Tyrell (looking over the board) asks: "Hmm, what are you up to, Sebastian?" It's checkmake in 1, you idiot! :) But at least Mr. Scott tried.

Same with the big chess game in TSCC, that was a real game, too, played between Byrne vs. Bobby Fischer, New York 1956. Fischer was only 13 at the time!

1 Nf3 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 Nc3 Bg7 4 d4 0-0 5 Bf4 d5 6 Qb3 dxc4 7 Qxc4 c6 8 e4 Nbd7 9 Rd1 Nb6 10 Qc5 Bg4 11 Bg5? Na4!! 12 Qa3 Nxc3 13 bxc3 Nxe4 14 Bxe7 Qb6 15 Bc4 Nxc3

Here cometh the show's big Bc5 moment:

16 Bc5 Rfe8+ 17 Kf1 ...

And Fischer's ingenious answer, sacrificing his Queen:

17. ... Be6!! 18 Bxb6 Bxc4+ 19 Kg1 Ne2+ 20 Kf1 Nxd4+ 21 Kg1 Ne2+ 22 Kf1 Nc3+ 23 Kg1 axb6 24 Qb4 Ra4 25 Qxb6 Nxd1 26 h3 Rxa2 27 Kh2 Nxf2 28 Re1 Rxe1 29 Qd8+ Bf8 30 Nxe1 Bd5 31 Nf3 Ne4 32 Qb8 b5 33 h4 h5 34 Ne5 Kg7 35 Kg1 Bc5+ 36 Kf1 Ng3+ 37 Ke1 Bb4+ 38 Kd1 Bb3+ 39 Kc1 Ne2+ 40 Kb1 Nc3+ 41 Kc1 Rc2#

None of this is really relevant, of course. But I'm a stickler for details, and I thrive on seeing Directors paying attention to detail.

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Well, at least someone woke up someone about that, as they straightened it out this ep. Only the other day I read someone found a possible continuation error in Firefly, after all these years!


Oh, do tell.


Well, it's Jayne's "Girl's a mind reading genius, can't even figure out how to eat an ice planet." line from The Message. Allegedly, this is a continuation error, as it was only revealed in OiS that River was a reader. But it could still be explained by Jayne referring to River sensing/reading that he betrayed her and Simon in Ariel. So, that's why, at best, it's still only a possible continuation error. You think that's a commentary on the quality of Firefly?


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Sunday, March 1, 2009 5:42 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


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DeWitt is Adelle, the woman who interviewed Echo at the start of the first episode, a sort of James Bond's 'M' wannabe (who thinks slapping on a British accent makes hers a good role).

Olivia Williams is British. She didn't have to slap on that accent.

As for that continuity error in The Message/Objects in Space, maybe you just noticed someone discussing it but that argument has been going for nearly five years now.



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Sunday, March 1, 2009 6:18 PM

PACHELBEL


Quote:

Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
The Dollhouse is proving to be a curiosity for me. I'm finding the 'missions' that Echo is being sent on as totally redundant. Is anyone else feeling this?
I'm curious as to why the show isn't actually dealing with the characters within the Dollhouse? I mean Amy Acker has been looking like a sour puss for three episodes now and no one seems bothered. I find this strange and disjointed.

This last episode was maybe the most difficult to watch and yet strangely, gave me the best sense of urgency about the episode to come...and it lasted two seconds at the finalé! Curious how Joss&Co can do that to me....

So far Boyd is excellent and entirely holding the premise together. I also like the cute next door neighbour to the FBI agent who I think is more than she seems (at least I hope she is more than she seems) Otherwise I'm not relating to anyone.

As this is Joss I will absolutely give it my full attention but I must admit I am severely missing Joss' sense of humour which I now realise has been the main reason why I find his shows so engaging. Without that element Dollhouse is proving less accessible than I would have thought.




It's interesting how feelings very so widely on the quality of the 3 episodes so far. I thought this was the best of the 3.

I also thought the humor was there. The whole plot was set up to diss American Idol, making the whole episode a joke, but not in a bad way.

I guess my biggest dissapointment was that Echo was actually imprinted with Faith the vampire slayer in this episode!

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Sunday, March 1, 2009 6:50 PM

06K64


For what it's worth, I'm in the Have Patience camp. The reason we can be so critical is that we have so much of Whedon's other work to draw on and compare to. And that's where my faith rests for the moment: I don't think Whedon would sign his name to something he wasn't pleased with, and we've seen alot of good from the man in the past.

As for the continuity (sorry- dead horse, I know...)was it really revealed that River was a reader in OiS, or was it just "revealed" to us that everyone else thought so, too? It just sounds like Mal's vocalising what everyone'd suspected.

And as for the ice planet comment, it's not like Jayne's all that careful about what thoughts escape through his mouth...

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Sunday, March 1, 2009 7:09 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Quote:

Originally posted by asarian:
That's what networks are for: to get in a man's way.


I still opine that Joss should have gone to the premium channels. They seem to have less inclination to get in a man's way when he's exploring difficult or interesting concepts.

[/sig]

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Sunday, March 1, 2009 10:31 PM

SHINYGOODGUY


The Dollhouse is proving to be a curiosity for me. I'm finding the 'missions' that Echo is being sent on as totally redundant. Is anyone else feeling this?

I think I get where you're coming from. My take on this is that he's setting us up by lobbing a few at us. He's getting us comfortable, or uncomfortable, with where he's taken us so far.
Some of the assignments are rather boring and mundane (almost), but nothing is ever mundane with Joss (except for what's on the surface) and it is only later that he will reveal something to us that, at first, seemed to be nothing at all.

In the Serenity Pilot Part 1 & 2, when River first came out of the box, what did we know? We only knew what Simon told the crew after Mal opened the box. She was a genius who's brain was tampered with by the Alliance. Did we know then that she was a reader? no; Did we know that she was a lethal weapon? no; Did we know that she was handy with a gun? no.

As a matter of fact in the pilot, when Dobbs took River from the infirmary at gunpoint, she was deathly afraid of guns. In OIS, we find out just how smart she is. Joss slowly, painstakingly so, reveals his little secrets to us and delights in giving us little hints and clues along the way, through both dialogue and story.

In DH take, for instance, the reveal that Victor was an active. How many saw that coming? Anyone, anyone? I have said this in another thread how Joss likes to give you hints within the dialogue where his characters are going. OK, take a few steps back, in the last ep Victor talking to Ballard and says that the DH doesn't exist and if it did that he would choose to be Doris Day. Next thing you see is Victor in the chair. HELLO!

I'm curious as to why the show isn't actually dealing with the characters within the Dollhouse? I mean Amy Acker has been looking like a sour puss for three episodes now and no one seems bothered. I find this strange and disjointed.

I think that it is doing just that. In The target we find out how the good Dr. got her scars. We also find out about Boyd and we get some animosity from the chief security guy. We also find out that DeWitt is no wuss, she fires back at her security chief when he questions her judgement regarding Ballard. And here is another little tidbit - they send 2 actives (maybe more) into assignments. Why is that important?

Think about it. In the pilot they send in Sierra to back up Echo, and in the last ep Sierra is sent in once again to back up Echo. It seems that the high-profile assignments get 2 or more actives. Now we come full circle to Ballard. Do you think that keeping the DH is high priority for DeWitt? Of course it is. So here's my theory on that: We know Victor has been assigned to him, but I think that there's another and it's the girl in 3B? That's strictly a wild guess, but it makes sense to me.

You're right about Boyd. I think Harry Lennix is excellent in this role. I believe the story could be told from his point of view. I get the feeling that he was a good cop who probably pissed off the wrong people on the police force and was asked to leave. His back story could prove to be very interesting, as well as Amy Acker's doctor.
The humor is there but few and far in between, they are litlle nuggets that we must keep an eye out for.

As I said before......patience my fellow travelers, patience. This is gonna be fun.

SGG


Tawabawho?

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Sunday, March 1, 2009 11:15 PM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
I'm finding the 'missions' that Echo is being sent on as totally redundant. Is anyone else feeling this?


Way I figure this, is that all these missions ARE, in fact, if not redundant, then certainly secondary to a main thread that's being spun: how the blank slate is gradually being filled up with echoes of earlier assignments, and how that affects the Dolls. It's actually quite a common theme in the world of robotics, A.I., psychology, etc., to explore what happens when -- and especially why -- someone/something grows and behaves beyond the programmed parameters.

They touched a bit upon this in Stage Fright, too, in that they were wondering whether, and why, Echo interpreted the mission parameters the way she did. But I'm guessing the deeper story being told is that of new personae being formed (unbeknownst to the Dollhouse staff, who just chalked off the one 'composite event' incident as an anomaly). So, I wouldn't say Echo's missions are truly redundant, in the sense that they could be skipped altogether, as each of them serves the purpose of adding another (near invisible) building block to the newly forming persona on the presumed blank slate. But, as for the mission-stories themselves, yes, I don't think they're the real story Joss wants to tell.

So, if I'm right, then maybe indeed more patience is required, as it simply takes time, like when adding literal pieces to a puzzle, ere you begin to see the outline of the full picture.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Monday, March 2, 2009 12:15 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST


pachelbel wrote:
Quote:

I also thought the humor was there. The whole plot was set up to diss American Idol, making the whole episode a joke, but not in a bad way.

Yes I agree - that came into play. Thing is though it went on too long and looked like they were actually far too into the 'look' of immitating it that the joke wore off - at least for me it did.

Quote:

I guess my biggest dissapointment was that Echo was actually imprinted with Faith the vampire slayer in this episode!
I think this will be inevitable really.



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Monday, March 2, 2009 12:32 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST


Originally posted by Shinygoodguy:
Quote:

I think I get where you're coming from. My take on this is that he's setting us up by lobbing a few at us. He's getting us comfortable, or uncomfortable, with where he's taken us so far.
Some of the assignments are rather boring and mundane (almost), but nothing is ever mundane with Joss (except for what's on the surface) and it is only later that he will reveal something to us that, at first, seemed to be nothing at all.


I heartily agree with you Shiny - thing is though I think this works for us Joss fans but a show that is designed to work retrospectively is maybe not the best approach for trying to draw in viewers and maintain them. I don't know, I'm only suggesting. When you look at shows that last like Lost or 24 they tend to deliver a hefty punch from the onset and then proceed to dangle carrots...

Quote:

I think that it is doing just that. In The target we find out how the good Dr. got her scars. We also find out about Boyd and we get some animosity from the chief security guy.

I thought that a little weak actually. I'm probably wrong here and I hate to criticize Amy's acting but to me it looks like they shot all her scenes in one or two days. She seems stuck in her own time. Her morals are showing and the fact that no-one appears concerned is bugging me....

Quote:

Do you think that keeping the DH is high priority for DeWitt? Of course it is. So here's my theory on that: We know Victor has been assigned to him, but I think that there's another and it's the girl in 3B? That's strictly a wild guess, but it makes sense to me.

Yes I'm hoping the girl in 3B is an active too. :D That was what I was hinting at in my above post.

Quote:

You're right about Boyd. I think Harry Lennix is excellent in this role.

Yeah he's very good and the show is at it's best when we're with him...

As for patience... Yeah I have plenty. It's not really me I'm worried about. It's the new blood so to speak. I have three friends who just don't care about what's happening - and I'm concerned how representative that may be. Is one in four good odds at such an early stage ?


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Monday, March 2, 2009 12:38 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST


Originally posted by asarian:

Quote:

Way I figure this, is that all these missions ARE, in fact, if not redundant, then certainly secondary to a main thread that's being spun: how the blank slate is gradually being filled up with echoes of earlier assignments, and how that affects the Dolls. It's actually quite a common theme in the world of robotics, A.I., psychology, etc., to explore what happens when -- and especially why -- someone/something grows and behaves beyond the programmed parameters.

Yes I think you're right. Their relevance will become apparent. I think the show is designed to work better retrospectively and that's fine. I just hope that folk who aren't already familiar with Joss will adhere to that. *Shrugs*

Quote:

So, if I'm right, then maybe indeed more patience is required, as it simply takes time, like when adding literal pieces to a puzzle, ere you begin to see the outline of the full picture.

As Daffy Duck would say "Indubitably"

:D


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Monday, March 2, 2009 2:56 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


Olivia Williams is British. She didn't have to slap on that accent.



Yup. You may also remember her from "Rushmore".

Mike

If you're going to assume anything, assume you're wrong.

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Monday, March 2, 2009 2:09 PM

WASHNWEAR


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
Quote:

Originally posted by asarian:
Also, did DeWitt really have to spell it out why Echo actually acted in accordance with the mission parameters?...



You know, I was kind of thinking that too. But, that's how they chose to interpret it. It's possible, perhaps even likely, that Echo recognized her friend from the Dollhouse and was honestly more interested in saving her protecting the diva.



That's the view I take. I think that by the end (or near to) of the ep, Echo's focus was all but entirely on rescuing Sierra. The fact that Raina came to her senses enough to be hauled back up (along with her matching torn rotator cuffs!) was just sort of a happy bonus. I understand that Echo was "programmed" to protect Raina no matter what, so maybe I should re-think that just a bit. Or, did Echo somehow subvert or co-opt that programming over to Sierra?

As for DeWitt's painful spelling-out of Echo's performance to Dominic - I think DeWitt's up to something, possibly in cahoots with Topher and Saunders, and she was just trying to get Dominic to chill-out. I also think there was some significance to DeWitt asking Dominic if he was a fan of Raina (for a second I thought she was asking him if he was a fan of Echo and/or the actives in general), but no idea right now what that significance would be.

Quote:

CellarDoor:
And I've come up with a theory about the cheesy plot points, they are so we will look beyond the standalone nature of the engagements and focus on the story arc about the actives and the Dollhouse itself.



Interesting strategy...emphasize the forest by killing (or otherwise hobbling) the trees. 'S got FOX's gummy little fingerprints all over it. It wouldn't surprise me if you're reading their minds there, CD, but it seems to me a dubious plan for success.

Quote:

Sergeant X:
They either need to ramp up the stuff about Echo's backstory and the mystery of Alpha, or make the "engagements" considerably more interesting. So far they've just been warmed over CSI.
SergeantX



What Sarge said...CSI...maybe even Viper...

One pleasant(?) surprise for me with Stage Fright - it (setting / nature of the assignment) didn't annoy me near as much as I thought it would, based on the description. As others have indicated, I had my misgivings...but I guess they were worse than the reality. Matter of fact, this-n-that and all-n-all, I guess I consider this the best* ep so far.


*Or, if you prefer, the least disappointing.





It was like that when we got here!

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Tuesday, March 3, 2009 7:22 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Quote:

Originally posted by asarian:
what's with Victor also asking whether he fell asleep? That gets a mite fake/forced


Much like thinking they need a 'treatment,' the falling asleep thing seems to be part of a deep-set programing. Echo asks every time; I would expect all of them to. The thing that bothered me was Victor still having the Russian accent of his previous personality. Can the actor not do any other accents? If so, I'm sorry, but what is he doing there? Is his sole purpose to be this Russian mafia kind of guy? He never has any other assignments for the duration of the show? If he does, can he only be on assignments that require a Russian? I dunno, that seemed odd to me. I expected all the 'blank slates' to have that flat, almost expressionless voice, any identifying characteristics wiped away. Echo doesn't sound like she's from Boston, Victor shouldn't sound like he's from Russia. IMO

[/sig]

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Tuesday, March 3, 2009 8:51 AM

BYTEMITE


Maybe accents aren't so easily wiped away. If they don't remove language capabilities in general from the wiped actives, then maybe it's dangerous to touch the HOW they talk part of that.

Caroline didn't sound like she had a boston accent to me, even if Eliza technically does IRL. Singer version Echo (Jordan) occassionally had touches of the Boston accent, but I think that's something Eliza brought to Jordan, not something she's bringing to Echo/Caroline. And, story-wise, I think that accent was part of her programming.

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Tuesday, March 3, 2009 9:02 AM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Quote:

Originally posted by asarian:
what's with Victor also asking whether he fell asleep? That gets a mite fake/forced


Much like thinking they need a 'treatment,' the falling asleep thing seems to be part of a deep-set programing. Echo asks every time; I would expect all of them to. The thing that bothered me was Victor still having the Russian accent of his previous personality. Can the actor not do any other accents? If so, I'm sorry, but what is he doing there? Is his sole purpose to be this Russian mafia kind of guy? He never has any other assignments for the duration of the show? If he does, can he only be on assignments that require a Russian? I dunno, that seemed odd to me. I expected all the 'blank slates' to have that flat, almost expressionless voice, any identifying characteristics wiped away. Echo doesn't sound like she's from Boston, Victor shouldn't sound like he's from Russia. IMO



Good point. :) I hadn't even noticed; but yeah, a persistent Russian accent which survives the wipe, you'd think someone (Topher, DeWitt?) would notice that.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Tuesday, March 3, 2009 9:33 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
maybe it's dangerous to touch the HOW they talk part of that.


Maybe, but they gave the Negotiator persona Spanish language abilities, if I remember right, and her pronunciation wasn't awkward, it sounded pretty good.
And true, I don't remember Caroline having a Boston accent, but she did speak more... harshly. Echo speaks softly, with somewhat higher pitch and rounder tones, very childlike.

Perhaps Victor was originally Russian and they couldn't wipe his accent, but if that's not the case, he's retaining that part of his programmed persona, in an obvious way, and I would expect that to set off some alarms.

[/sig]

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Tuesday, March 3, 2009 1:53 PM

BYTEMITE


I think the accents they're programmed to have are probably a bit different an issue than the accents that are left over. Like, you can learn how to fake an accent, that's what the programming is like, except the actives are downloading an entire personality, and the accent in that case is real.

A person starts learning to speak when they're an infant, and pick up the mannerisms/speaking style of those around them (most likely their parents). It's not consciously learned or remembered; in fact, children tend to forget their first three years of life. So wiping a person's memory, but retaining their ability to speak, I'm not convinced you'd wipe away their mannerisms.

Echo not talking like Caroline would be an example of inconsistency, however, since Victor retains his accent. But I'm not sure Echo doesn't retain Caroline's mannerisms: a more boisterious way of talking is different from a speech pattern like an accent, and dependent upon personality (which the wiping process strips away).

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Tuesday, March 3, 2009 2:07 PM

SHINYGOODGUY


You're right Sleepyhead

I heartily agree with you Shiny - thing is though I think this works for us Joss fans but a show that is designed to work retrospectively is maybe not the best approach for trying to draw in viewers and maintain them. I don't know, I'm only suggesting. When you look at shows that last like Lost or 24 they tend to deliver a hefty punch from the onset and then proceed to dangle carrots...

It is his M.O. My guess is that he's relying on his rep (Buffy, Angel) to draw in newbies. That may not work. I believe that may have been Fox's take on it as well, hence the "request" for several re-writes. The execs at Fox figure that they know a thing or two about successful shows. Perhaps using the '24' approach would give the show some much-needed punch and pizazz. But I think he should go with his strength - episodic writing. Come strong or don't come at all. I'm just saying.
------------------------
I thought that a little weak actually. I'm probably wrong here and I hate to criticize Amy's acting but to me it looks like they shot all her scenes in one or two days. She seems stuck in her own time. Her morals are showing and the fact that no-one appears concerned is bugging me....

Yeah, I hear you. It does seem that she's on a single note in these first 3 eps. But just give me a second, OK? My feeling is that something has traumatized Dr. S and Boyd is going to draw her out. It's agreed that he's key in all this, both in the story and his acting ability, I get the notion that he and Echo are on a journey (not so much different from Mal & River) and that Echo will not be alone in becoming aware. The good Dr's story will get better and so will Amy. Where do I get this confidence? I just think back to River's journey in the series, at first we got bits and pieces of her story, and if you look carefully you could see she's pretty much crazy throughout until OiS. Of course, Summer was brilliant in her portrayal.
---------------------------------

Yes I'm hoping the girl in 3B is an active too. :D That was what I was hinting at in my above post.

Actually, I got the apartment number wrong (don't know where I got 3B from), it's Apt. 205 (the FBI agent is 207). And yes, I did read your post (I should have mentioned that in my post) but great minds think alike
I thought that at the end of the show, "What if the next door neighbor is a Doll, since we know they assign 2 actives to important cases."
-------------------------------------------

As for patience... Yeah I have plenty. It's not really me I'm worried about. It's the new blood so to speak. I have three friends who just don't care about what's happening - and I'm concerned how representative that may be. Is one in four good odds at such an early stage ?

Yeah, I'm concerned too. Joss has this tendency to show us his reveals painstakingly and excruciatingly slowly. That may work for us Browncoats, but it's not for everyone. The casual viewer channel-surfing for something good to watch on Friday nights may skip over this show after a few minutes.
----------------------------------

I just wanted to add something regarding the casting on the show, since many, including myself, have expressed concern about some of the acting so far in this series.

Eliza (don't get me wrong I like her but...) needs to stretch herself a bit. I love her as the tough girl, she's great at it, but this role calls for something more. She did show me a little of it in the pilot. BTW the glasses thing was a joke, even Boyd made that comment to Topher. That's Joss' humor. She needs to be more consistent.

My take on Mr. Dominick (security chief) and the FBI Agent Ballard is that the 2 actors should have been switched around. I believe Reed Diamond (Mr. Dominic) would have made a better Agent Ballard and vice versa for Penikett (Agent Ballard). Right now Diamond shows to be the stronger character in the series between the two.
That's just me.

SGG

Tawabawho?

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