FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Ariel - and Mal's forgiveness

POSTED BY: TAUSETIPRIME
UPDATED: Sunday, August 1, 2004 16:19
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Monday, July 19, 2004 2:31 AM

TAUSETIPRIME


Ive watched this a couple times. I cant help wondering what was Mal's reason for letting Jayne back in the ship

He's on his crew.....but....

What was the redeaming action that told Mal he couldnt kill Jayne?

The dialog they have at the end of the episode doesnt seem like enough in comparison to other scenarios we've seen Mal in.

Is there something about Jayne I'm missing?





Mal:

I wasn't askin'.....I was tellin'.....

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Monday, July 19, 2004 2:42 AM

LIZ


i think it's the remorse. the fact that he says "make something up. don't tell 'em what i done." Jayne feels guilty about turning on them. i think the way that Simon looked at him like he was a hero just made him re-think turning on him. or maybe hearing the screams of the people killed by the blue hand people made him think about what they must have done to River. For whatever reason Jayne didn't want to be thought of as a traitor and that remorse was enough for Mal to allow him to stay. (not enough to let him inside for a while though. )

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Monday, July 19, 2004 2:57 AM

BRITCHICK


I agree with Liz. The fact that Jayne did not want Simon and River to know it was him, showed that he was ashamed and regretted what he had done.

Up until that point he had just been making excuses.

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Monday, July 19, 2004 3:30 AM

REGINLEIF


I'm not sure Mal intended to kill Jayne at all. I think it's more something of reminding him who's the boss, and to get back into line. Jayna is a useful crew mamber, after all. But he was beginning to become a bit dangerous. So Mal had to have this talk with him, sometimes. Jayne gave him the oppurtunity and reason, but when I saw this at first I thought: "Finally! This had to happen sometime!". So I don't think he let Jayne back after something, I think he meant to let him back on, just warn him and give him time to understand Mal will watch him.

You can't take the sky from me.

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Monday, July 19, 2004 5:26 AM

KATI


For me the reason why Mal doesn’t spaced him is that Jayne already accepts that he has to die because he understands that he did wrong.
Jayne really accepts that, he takes his soon coming death as a fact, but he doesn’t want let the other know about his failure. He knows that Mal is going all the way.
It’s just like a last wish of a condemned man (Jayne who knows he’s sentenced to death) to ask his executioner for not telling the others about that.
And that makes Mal thinking it over… and change his mind. Jayne’s fear of death is less than his feelings of guilty for his deed.
That’s it – he knows he deserves it – and Mal knows that Jayne’s not lost for him and the crew because of this. *g* I think Jayne accepts that there are people who’ve got other philosophies than his own (1st money, 2nd money and 3rd money) and that the others aren’t wrong at all… but just are others and never will be his own.
But he understands that there’s something he just has to accept. He will never change his own philosophy, but he learned to accept and to respect the others. A bit at least. He may be illoyal and rude and not likeable but he always was kind of honestly in his own way (showed his feelings and thoughts openminded) – and if the others know of his betrayal he’s not more that “honest” man he was before. That’s why he doesn’t want them to know.

There’s another problem with Ariel, I think. Jayne made no secret of his feelings against the siblings – never, from the beginning on. And after this “He looks better in red”-scene he makes that clear again and speaks about the reward they could have again. Mal knows that.
Why does Mal send Jayne with them into the hospital, why doesn’t he leads them himself and let Zoe and Jayne take such medicaments? Or he could have send Zoe with River and Simon – and go himself together with Jayne. Why the hell he was so prepared to risk this thing?

That's my five cents...


Time for some thrilling heroics.

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Monday, July 19, 2004 5:29 AM

PURPLEBELLY


It's because Ariel wasn't written by Whedon or Minear

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Monday, July 19, 2004 5:43 AM

LIZ


Quote:

Originally posted by KATI:
There’s another problem with Ariel, I think. Jayne made no secret of his feelings against the siblings – never, from the beginning on. And after this “He looks better in red”-scene he makes that clear again and speaks about the reward they could have again. Mal knows that.
Why does Mal send Jayne with them into the hospital, why doesn’t he leads them himself and let Zoe and Jayne take such medicaments? Or he could have send Zoe with River and Simon – and go himself together with Jayne. Why the hell he was so prepared to risk this thing?

Jayne had a hard enough time remembering the "we applied the cortical elctrodes..." line -- i wouldn't trust him to remember what to grab.
at least, that's why i wouldn't send him to get the meds.

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Monday, July 19, 2004 6:19 AM

KATI


"Jayne had a hard enough time remembering the "we applied the cortical elctrodes..." line -- i wouldn't trust him to remember what to grab.
at least, that's why i wouldn't send him to get the meds."


Oh, LIZ, even Mal had written his arm full of names to remember the meds... *g*

Time for some thrilling heroics.

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Monday, July 19, 2004 8:15 AM

MER


Quote:

Originally posted by KATI:

Oh, LIZ, even Mal had written his arm full of names to remember the meds... *g*



But is Jayne the type to write them all down?

Jayne isn't intirely bad. He does things for the money only because he has a family to help support. He doesn't give a care to anybody (except maybe Kaylee) and I can't wait to find out the reason why.
Sometimes Jayne acts too Spikey...I swear O_O;;

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Monday, July 19, 2004 8:32 AM

PINGJING


Kati wrote:
For me the reason why Mal doesn’t spaced him is that Jayne already accepts that he has to die because he understands that he did wrong.
Jayne really accepts that, he takes his soon coming death as a fact, but he doesn’t want let the other know about his failure. He knows that Mal is going all the way.
It’s just like a last wish of a condemned man (Jayne who knows he’s sentenced to death) to ask his executioner for not telling the others about that.
________________________________________________

That's exactly how I understood that scene. Jayne accepts Mal's decision and actually feels shame for what he did, and that's why Mal closes the door.
What I find interesting is that Mal took the intercom thingamajigger with him up the stairs. He wanted to hear what Jayne had to say - in other words, he hadn't given up on him yet. I don't think Mal was entirely bluffing - he was certainly mad enough to kill Jayne - but at the same time I don't think he was really planning to. Or maybe he didn't know whether he was going to go through with it. He just left it up to Jayne.

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Monday, July 19, 2004 9:46 AM

STATIC


Going back to the whole 'remorse/regret' thing. . .re-watch the episode. Adam Baldwin is an incredible actor. During the scene where Simon is explaining to Jayne what's been done to River, you begin to see even that early the 'oh shit. . .what have I done?' look on Jayne's face.

I think at this point, the only reason he goes through with it is because he figures, "in for a penny, in for a pound."

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Monday, July 19, 2004 10:04 AM

JUSTANOTHERMUDDER


Thats what I thought too: It was the 'don't tell em what I done' line that gave Mal enough reason to not kill Jayne. And I do believe has really wanted a reason to not kill him.
I don't know why Jayne went with the Doc and River as opposed to anyone else. Guess it was just habit on Mal's part. Zoe always has his back.
IMO, this episode is another example of how much smarter Mal is then he likes to admit. :D He always seems to know what others are thinking. Except Inara. ;)


"Always be yourself. Unless you suck." Joss Whedon
"Where else are you going to get a love story that begins:
Boy meets girl. Girl kicks boy's ass." NYPinTA @WatchFarscape.com

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Monday, July 19, 2004 11:25 AM

LIZ


I remembered that Mal had written them down. i also remember Mal explaining to Simon " If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed." Perhaps that's only if your Simon.

So, yeah, some of it doesn't fit as well but, here's my rationalization: Jayne isn't book smart enough to grab the right stuff fast enough and probably wouldn't deal well if he was questioned. (If faced with that doctor's questioning, i think Jayne would have escalated the argument to a shouting match, thus bringing attention to them... and then just punched the doctor.) As far as the wrench to the back of the head vs. the facing each other armed, perhaps Jayne gave up that right when he betrayed a memeber of the crew. Of course, Simon threatened to not save Kaylee's life, so maybe that logic doesn't work either.
i give up. i believe that Mal had good reason to leave Jayne w/Simon and River, and that he was ready to kill Jayne for the betrayal. My reasoning: 'cuz.

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Monday, July 19, 2004 5:01 PM

TAUSETIPRIME


This is a good point.

I like the way you think.........:)




I wasn't askin'.....I was tellin'.....

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Monday, July 19, 2004 7:06 PM

TALONPEST


The one thing that's always bothered me about the line "If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed" is that in the very next episode Mal kicks Krowl (or Crow, or whatever Niska's thug's name was) into the engine while he's unarmed and has his hands bound. So yeah, I think it only applies to Simon.

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Monday, July 19, 2004 7:21 PM

DRALIONSOLEIL


i like to think the "if i ever kill you..." line was given to simon becuase he feels simon deserves the honor of defending himself. cause of his ideals... simon wanted to be river's big damn hero and save her from the bad place no matter the cost. where as crow's just a thug, and uhm
::thinks about it:: well yeah i guess it's just a plain old double standard.
:p

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Monday, July 19, 2004 7:42 PM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by Talonpest:
Mal kicks Krowl (or Crow, or whatever Niska's thug's name was) into the engine while he's unarmed and has his hands bound.


IIRC Whedon was concerned the character of Crow (spelling taken from shooting script) would be attractive to the Network, which had forced the rapid writing of The Train Job 'pilot'. Crow's disappearance is therefore a symbolic rejection of Network influence. We now know the sensitivity of the Network to such statements.

I took the road less travelled ...

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Monday, July 19, 2004 8:35 PM

LOFWYRR


Back to the whole 'why let Jayne got with River and Simon, instead of Mal and Zoe" bit, combined with Mal having the list written on his arm...in 'The Message", when Jayne get the letter from home, I saw that Jayne, while intelligent and ruthless, can't read so well. So it's not really that big of a suprise that the merc couldn't be expected to decipher names of medicines he'd never seen before.

"If I'd have wanted schooling, I'd have gone to school"


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Monday, July 19, 2004 9:22 PM

SOUPCATCHER


I've always liked what Hank Parnell had to say about Mal in general and this scene in particular. The rest of Hank's thesis on why Firefly was canceled is less convincing to me. He may very well be right however it's not something that can ever be verified. But he makes some good points and I think it's time the article got dusted off and re-read. I'll just excerpt the relevant parts and link to the whole article.

Quote:

from "Swatting the Firefly" by Hank Parnell originally published in The Texas Mercury
But most of all, living "beyond the law" as Reynolds and his crew had to, the moral universe of Firefly depended not on the "rule of law," but on its much-maligned and deliberately-misunderstood alternative, the rule of honor. And Firefly made the case, through Reynolds, as persuasively as it has ever been made in American fiction, print, TV, film or otherwise, in my opinion, for the ultimate superiority of the rule of honor over the rule of law—at least for uncommon people, if not the run-of-the-mill herds of swine, sheep, slaves and robots held to be so dear today.

For you see, the rule of honor demands what law must defer: individual responsibility, personal culpability, what is fair and what is just, of every man (and woman) who lives by it. Nowhere is this made more clear than at the climax of the episode "Ariel," in which Reynolds is about to space Jayne for betraying River and her doctor brother to the Feds. Jayne, after some hemming and hawing, admits his guilt, and his reasons for the betrayal: "The money was too good. I got stupid." This makes little impression on Reynolds, who turns and walks away: he knows Jayne is guilty, and why. What turns him back around and stops him is when Jayne asks what Reynolds plans to tell the others, and says, rather pathetically:

"Make something up. Don't tell 'em what I did."

I, for one, could see the wheels turning in Mal Reynolds' head: He's ashamed. There may be something of a man in him after all.

It is then, of course, that Reynolds closes the outer hatch before Serenity leaves the atmosphere, and spares Jayne's life.

Some of you may think this is only in my imagination; and to be sure, I do not imagine that Joss Whedon has sat down and thought about the rule of honor as I have, or would even support or espouse it, as I do, other than as a fictional device for the development of one of his characters. And yet there it is; consciously or not, it is in there, and it underlies every single thing that Reynolds does. Honor is his roadmap in life, his way of finding his way through the wilderness. It says to him at every turn: This thing I can do and live with myself; this thing I can't. It is in the end what makes him a "good" man, in the conventional sense, and an American, and, ultimately, a Southerner.



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Monday, July 19, 2004 9:34 PM

HKCAVALIER


Couple thoughts: the "I won't kill you..." line makes perfect sense to me in the context of Krowl. It'd be just silly if Mal gave Simon all the corrolaries and exceptions to his basic rule: "Oh, but if you've tried to kill me and members of my crew, and I have you at my mercy and you insist on threatening to hound me till the day I die, then, yeah, I might kill you even if you aren't at that moment armed."

And also, Mal puts his faith in Jayne. He treats him as a member of his crew, which means he trusts him. This is a choice Mal makes. Jayne acknowledged that "doc had a good plan." Mal doesn't have the benefit of our omniscient awareness of Jayne and his motives. And Mal could make little use of Jayne if he based his decisions on Jayne's essencial untrustworthiness.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, July 20, 2004 12:37 AM

EVILTOBZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Talonpest:
The one thing that's always bothered me about the line "If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed" is that in the very next episode Mal kicks Krowl (or Crow, or whatever Niska's thug's name was) into the engine while he's unarmed and has his hands bound. So yeah, I think it only applies to Simon.


i'd take that line a little less literally than that myself. i see it more as an implication that for mal to choose to kill someone they would have had to oppose him pretty strongly and would know it was coming. jayne didn't know that mal had figured out what had happened, but he knew that mal wouldn't take it good, so he knows its coming enough, same with kicking yon crow bloke through the engine.

---------------------------------------------
eviltobz - that's lowercase gorram it!

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Tuesday, July 20, 2004 1:15 AM

KATI


LIZ wrote “i give up. i believe that Mal had good reason to leave Jayne w/Simon and River, and that he was ready to kill Jayne for the betrayal. My reasoning: 'cuz. “

@LIZ – Never give up, never surrender (I love that quote!*g*) – your last reason is one of the greatest ever. :-) It’s just my humble opinion, I just thought that it would have been much more “smooth” (for Mal, not for us…) if Mal had decided to do this job in another way. Ariel is one of my favourite eps, and I’m sure it wasn’t if it had taken another path, really. But playing with all these “coulda-shoulda-wouldas” is such a wonderful wasting of lifetime. *g*

@MER: You said: “Jayne isn't intirely bad. He does things for the money only because he has a family to help support. He doesn't give a care to anybody (except maybe Kaylee) and I can't wait to find out the reason why.
Sometimes Jayne acts too Spikey...I swear O_O;;”

Oh, I never would say that I don’t like Jayne – he’s my beloved favourite funny dumbass. :-) I just try to *not* see him through my fangirlish pink glasses. I always think of this scene in Serenity when he so cares about Kaylee. And you’re right. He often reminds me of Spikey (without that “love’s bitch” thing). And I was so shocked as I watched Ariel for the first time, this moment as he called this Fed and said his “…then I’ll have your fugitives.” Oh my, that was more than a shock, it was a reason for a heartattack! (and this wrench-moment in the cargo bay *g*)

@STATIC: You wrote “Going back to the whole 'remorse/regret' thing. . .re-watch the episode. Adam Baldwin is an incredible actor. During the scene where Simon is explaining to Jayne what's been done to River, you begin to see even that early the 'oh shit. . .what have I done?' look on Jayne's face.”

OH YES! AB is such an underrated actor, and this scene where Simon is so excited about Jayne’s “saving their lives” and Mal’s “big pay day” is amazing, just for looking at AB’s face. It’s really a mix of “what have I done?” and his release like “uhhh… they didn’t find out”. That’s really fantastic!

@Soupcatcher: Very well said… just without that patriotic thingy, for my opinion, but I think it’s a special part of the Americans, and ‘cuz. ;) Thanks for sharing.


Time for some thrilling heroics.

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Tuesday, July 20, 2004 1:51 AM

SCOTTISHBROWNCOAT


It reminds me of Shan Yu's Volcano theory;

Didn't Mal "Hold Jane over the Volcano" so to speak...And by Jayne saying "don't tell 'em what I did" His remorse shown while being "held over the Volcano" let Mal know about Jayne's true self.

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Tuesday, July 20, 2004 6:53 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


I agree w/ Liz. I think that the remorse Jayne felt & his asking Mal to "make something up" & "don't tell them what I done" is what convinced Mal to let Jayne stay on.

I think it will be a long time before Mal forgives Jayne for the betrayal or truly trusts him again.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Tuesday, July 20, 2004 7:24 AM

KIQUOA


Mal is contridicting himself all the time.
"We're not theives... well, we are theives..."

Mal 'I don't run away from a fight.'
Inara "Yes you do, you run away all the time!"

I see it as the struggle between who Mal wants to be (the honerable hero who gives Jayne the shot at redemption or who would give Simon the chance to defend himself) and the man who reality forces him to be (a thief and the man who shows the better part of valor through discreation)

His scene with Jayne puts these two sides of Mal against each other. On the one hand he must defend his crew, on the other, Jayne IS part of his crew and deserves a second chance. I agree though that Jayne only gets his second chance when he shows remorse like others had pointed out.

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Tuesday, July 20, 2004 7:49 AM

RANGER


Ok, here is my take. A lot of my ideas have already been said by others here, but I'll just through in a few thoughts of my own.

Mal is a guy that has seen enough death and destruction to value life to a very high degree. He is willing to kill Jayne for his actions, but he doesn't want to. The whole set up, puting the com set in the airlock with Jayne is Mal's hoping aginst hope that he won't have to actually do the deed.

This is a major event in Jayne's life as well (to put it mildly). The first time he's ever been over the volcano so to speak (great analogy by the way, never hit me until I read it here). Jayne is a big confident guy. He's faced death lots of times, but has always made it, and probably never really thought he could loose. Now, for probably the first time, he has to face it as a reality and he suddenly has to choose what matters most. His choice of his honor over everything else (don't tell 'em what I did) is probably as surprising to him as it is to Mal.

Mal only kills when he believes he has no other option. Jayne gave him enough to pull back.

As to the 'awake, facing me, and armed' comment, I think it just means he gives people a fighting chance. Crow had a fighting chance, he could have taken Mals deal and walked free, he chose not to.

Just my thoughts...

Traveller, if you go to Sparta, tell them you have seen us lying here as the Law commands.

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Tuesday, July 20, 2004 2:13 PM

SHINYSEVEN


Whereas I think it's just another one of Mal's really mean practical jokes--it's cranking up a notch what he did to Simon in Serenity.

And, like Our Mrs. Reynolds or Shindig, if Mal is angry at someone who is not posing an immediate threat to his life, he's going to be right in there with a second-degree assault, but he isn't going to kill that person.

I think according to Mal's Sentencing Guidelines, Jayne (whose dependability has ALWAYS been an issue) deserved to be knocked cold with a wrench and get really scared, but it was fair and proportionate to leave it at that.

Besides, if he spaced Jayne, he'd have to get another "public relations" executive who would raise the same risks.

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Tuesday, July 20, 2004 2:55 PM

DARKJESTER


Here's another thought on the matter - Mal didn't really see Simon as a threat. He could simply tell that Simon wouldn't ever blindside him. And he was re-assuring Simon that he (Mal) would never... well... kill him in his sleep.
Crow, on the other hand, was making it very clear that he would hunt Mal down and kill him however was NOT quickest and least painful. I think Mal will give you respect as a courtesy, until you prove to him that you don't deserve it.
And I believe that in "Ariel", when Mal let Jayne live, it was because Mal saw Jayne showing remorse. Yes, perhaps Mal was "holding him over a volcano", and he saw more (and better) than he expected.

MAL "You only gotta scare him."
JAYNE "Pain is scary..."

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Tuesday, July 20, 2004 4:28 PM

FEMALEJAYNE


I'm going to say it was that Jayne planned on selling them out, changed his mind and then vocalized that he was sorry.

With Hope because love is nothing without hope.

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Tuesday, July 20, 2004 5:06 PM

MINDSEYE


SCOTTISHBROWNCOAT, "hit the nail on the head" so to speak.

Shan Yu : "Live with a man forty
years. Share his house, his meals,
speak on every subject. Then tie
him up and hold him over the volcano's
edge, and on that day, you will
finally meet the man."

Mal held jayne over the volcano's edge and met the real Jayne that was hidden under his "Thug" exterior.




Freedom - Peace - Serenity

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Friday, July 23, 2004 11:25 AM

STEVETHEPIRATE


Here's my two cents.

Mal tells Simon the "If I ever kill you..." line because he now trusts Simon, understands the motive behind any and all of his actions and, above all, knows Simon is, at his core, a good person.

Mal kills the unarmed Crow because Crow poses a significant threat to the crew of Serenity and shows no potential for thinking in any other fashion. In other words, he has no redeeming qualities and could serve no positive purpose for Mal and his crew.

Mal suckerpunches Jayne and puts him in harms way while unconcious because Jayne poses a significant threat to anyone within arm's reach, has betrayed the crew and, at his core, is not entirely trustworthy.

It's not a double-standard, it's common sense.

Of course, two cents can't buy much.

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Friday, July 23, 2004 12:03 PM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES


My take?

Ariel is the start of Jayne's redemption story - I've posted on other threads that Jayne would betray Mal and Co (had the series continued) at some point in the future, and IMO would have gone to the "dark side" and back.

Adam could have carried that journey off - and it would have been stunning to watch.

Jayne telling Mal to "make something up" is the cogs whirring. Two eps ago he saw how an "evil" act of his was deified by Canton, and that stayed with him. He could take that Mal would space him, but not that he died a villan.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Friday, July 23, 2004 1:04 PM

RANGER


Ok, now for something completely different. I've been thinking that Mal never really forgives Jayne. What he does is lay out a deal for him, and then waits to see if he accepts (kind of like the Crow situation). The question for Mal isn't does he trust Jayne enough to keep him on the crew, but does Jayne respect Mal's decisions. Mal's first priority is protecting his crew, and he's willing to go down with the ship to do it if he has to. Mal made Simon crew, and Jayne has never recognized that. Jayne tries to explain his decision as selling out Simon and River, not betraying Mal. Mal has to remind Jayne that by selling out Simon, he is selling out Mal and as Mal says, "since you can't seem to wrap your brain around that, you've got no place here" (or words to that effect). So, if Jayne has no place on the boat, he can't be allowed to live because he is a threat to the crews' survival (he could, for example, tell the Feds about who killed Dobson and where it happened just for starters).

So, the question isn't why does Mal forgive Jayne, but why does he accept that Jayne has wrapped his brain around the issue of who's in charge. I think it may be that Jayne's request is a recognition of Mal's authority over his life and how he will be remembered.

Just my thoughts...

Traveller, if you go to Sparta, tell them you have seen us lying here as the Law commands.

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Saturday, July 24, 2004 4:38 AM

RANGER


Ok, a little clarification on my previous post. So, what is it about that final interaction between Jayne and Mal that changes Mal's mind? I think it comes down to priorities.

Mal's problem with Jayne's actions (besides the fact that they were just dumb) seems to be that they are a rejection of Mal's authority as captain. Mal made Simon Crew and Jayne rejected that decision. Being crew means you look after each other and watch each others' backs. For the captain it means doing what ever it takes to protect them.

What Jayne does at the end of the scene is accept Mal's authority as captain (by accepting Mal's judgement of him) and he puts the crew first in his mind. Jayne's last request could have been about his family back home or what to do with all his guns and knives, but when it comes down to it, it's the crew (including Simon and River) and his relationship to them, even after he is gone, that matters most. By putting the crew first Jayne shows Mal he can be trusted (at least as far as he ever could be trusted before).

So, in the end, no forgiveness, just a re-affermation of the deal. 'You live by my law... you have a place on my crew.'

Traveller, if you go to Sparta, tell them you have seen us lying here as the Law commands.

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Saturday, July 24, 2004 5:58 AM

THEREALME


Yes. I never thought through all the details like that, but that all sounds right.

The Real Me

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Saturday, July 24, 2004 5:58 AM

THEREALME


But I did think it odd that Wash's control panel didn't show a flashing red light telling him the air lock was not shut completely...

The Real Me

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Saturday, July 24, 2004 6:49 AM

SHINYSEVEN


It's possible that Jayne, like Spike, was supposed to have only a few episodes, but thanks to a charismatic performer was too much damn fun to watch to get rid of--thus opening up the option of character redemption.

"Sadistic crap legitimized by florid prose"

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Saturday, July 24, 2004 6:56 AM

PURPLEBELLY


Quote:

Originally posted by TheRealMe:
... flashing red light telling him the air lock was not shut completely


Probably the same faulty sub-system that doesn't alert the use of an air-lock in Objects in Space.
Try telling that to a cop when the reversing klaxon on your truck is bust

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Saturday, July 24, 2004 8:13 AM

NEDWARD


Quote:

Originally posted by TheRealMe:
But I did think it odd that Wash's control panel didn't show a flashing red light telling him the air lock was not shut completely...

I thought the only thing Wash's control panel shows is whether or not the ship's landlocked.

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Saturday, July 24, 2004 9:39 AM

SIKKUKUT


I've always found it to be a fascinating question whether Mal actually planned to kill Jayne or not. Myself, I'm still undecided, but perhaps over the course of this post I will develop an opinion. The problem for us as audience, of course, is that either Mal was planning on spacing Jayne, or he was doing his damnedest to convince Jayne of that fact... and either way, it looks the same to us.

I've actually had a bit of trouble consistently outlining Mal's policy on when you leave an enemy alive. Let's think it through. Patience lives, Dobson dies, Crow dies, Wing lives, Saffron lives, Jayne lives, Niska lives (but I don't think that was by Mal's choice), Tracy dies, Saffron lives again, Rance Burgess dies but not by Mal's hand, and Early... well, probably dies. I'm not seeing the pattern here. And note that other than Dobson, I'm not really counting people who die in battle because that A) is a given and B) would take too long.

Okay, we can divide these basically into categories: He killed Tracy, Dobson, and (probably) Early because it was the most efficient way of dealing with the threat they posed. Burgess also falls into that category-- although he didn't pose an immediate threat, it was Mal's opinion that he would never leave those women alone. Patience, Crow, Wing, and Saffron (both times) all fall under the category of mercy to a defeated enemy. Again, Crow demonstrates the desire to threaten them again and an unwillingness to abide by their plans. And the other three... Mal has them defeated, he has what he wants from them, and they pose no further threat. They don't show remorse, but they don't pose a threat. Niska's a sort of special case, because of the torture and the fact that Mal didn't get to finish things with him. Note that I'm guessing there are also certain unpardonable crimes (for instance, killing civilians, as in the unproduced ep Dead or Alive) for which Mal wouldn't let a person live unless he had to.

And then there's Jayne. Which category does he fit into? I'd say that Mal is still assessing that fact, and that's why he's got him in the airlock. But he can't assess that fact unless he talks to Jayne, which is why he gives him the comm. It's my best guess that this was Mal's expected outcome... but by no means certain. Mal was pretty sure he could deal with Jayne... but if Jayne had resolutely stayed in the "still a threat" category by showing no remorse... then, I firmly believe, Mal would have let him die.

Oops, guess I do have an opinion.

Meanwhile, I've got some musings on Jayne's self-image, but this post has gone long enough and that probably belongs in another thread anyway.

____________________________
"You're mean. Firefly's making me reconsider my lifelong devotion to Star Trek." --My mother

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Saturday, July 24, 2004 9:52 AM

DEWSHINE


I know this doesn't belong here, but didn't Crow die?

Anyway...Jayne I don't think has been forgiven, Mal's still watching him closely, but Jayne is more useful alive and as long as Mal keeps up on what he's up to at least Jayne is predictable. Another strong arm might not be, so Mal deals with Jayne.

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Saturday, July 24, 2004 6:47 PM

THEREALME


Crow died, but I think that the point was that Mal was WILLING to make a deal with Crow. Crow did the big stupid, and ended up lubricating engine parts.

The Real Me

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Saturday, July 24, 2004 6:50 PM

DEWSHINE


ah, but how does this show mercy to a defeated enemy...
I know, I'm dense here. All the others in the catagory lived...

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Saturday, July 24, 2004 7:02 PM

THEREALME


Well, this isn't really my thread, but I think I understand what the original poster was getting at.

Mal was willing to deal with Crow, to show mercy to a defeated opponent. Honorable thing to do.

Just like Mal did with Jayne.

But Crow steadfastly refused to be reasonable, moreover he assured Mal that there would be NO WAY that Crow could be anything but a deadly foe out for Mal's blood. Mal needs none of that. If there is no hope for reconciliation, no dealing, kill him.

Jayne showed remorse, sort of apologized, and Mal let him live.


The Real Me

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Saturday, July 24, 2004 7:05 PM

DEWSHINE


"Crow steadfastly refused to be reasonable, moreover he assured Mal that there would be NO WAY that Crow could be anything but a deadly foe out for Mal's blood."

This is exactly why I think Crow belonged in the first group, LOL.....

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Saturday, July 24, 2004 7:12 PM

THEREALME



Oh.

Well, I would say that until that point, Mal was ready to let him slide off in the survivors group. Hey, I'm getting more than a bit confused, and this isn't even my thread. In one or two more posts, you'll have me convinced of just about anything...



Are you a Pini fan?


The Real Me

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Saturday, July 24, 2004 7:13 PM

DEWSHINE


Yes, Elfquest is the best stuff out there, comic wise... LOL

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Saturday, July 24, 2004 7:20 PM

THEREALME


I got them all.

The Real Me

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Saturday, July 24, 2004 7:23 PM

DEWSHINE


we're off topic, but did you like the tribute stuff that was done a few years back? The people who draw Speed Racer did one, and boy was it odd looking...

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Saturday, July 24, 2004 7:31 PM

THEREALME


* The Real Me scratches his head, looks puzzled, and shrugs. *

Huh?

The Real Me

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