WOW! OIS Commentary (spoilers for commentary) by heb

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

WOW! OIS Commentary (spoilers for commentary)

POSTED BY: HEB
UPDATED: Friday, July 16, 2004 19:48
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Wednesday, June 23, 2004 6:43 AM

After listening to the OiS commentary the other night, I now have an even bigger appreciation for Joss than I did before. The man might be without faith, but he's most certainly not without spirituality (and I don't even think he realizes it). After listening to his commentary on OiS, I realized that, while he may be an atheist, all three of his series have an inherent spirituality about them, particularly BtVS and ANGEL. I've also realized that, for an atheist, he's got an uncanny understanding of the very roots of faith and religion that shines forth in his writing in several ways, particularly on Firefly in the characters of Mal and Book.

On the subject of morality, morals and religion are not the same thing; they're taken to be, but they're not. One can be moral and still not have religion/faith. Most of my dad's side of the family are not religious in any way, and yet I would consider them to be moral people.

Take my love
Take my land
Take me where I cannot stand
I don't care
I'm still free
You can't take the sky from me
Take me out to the black
Tell 'em I ain't comin' back
Burn the land and boil the sea
You can't take the sky from me
There's no place I can be
Since I've found Serenity
But you can't take the sky from me

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Monday, June 28, 2004 7:52 AM

LAILING

I just read this entire thread in one sitting, and - wow! Gettin' really deep here. In many things, including, but certainly not limited to, BS (depending upon what you believe).
I have several comments to make:
1. "You don't fix faith, faith fixes you." And, indeed, in OIS, it does - the crew's faith in River makes her One with them.
2. Is God always right? Which God? There are (to some people) hundreds or thousands, many of whom have beliefs which are diametrically opposed to others; e.g. Allah permits polygamy, but Yehweh does not. So is "rightness" determined only by how many followers are left standing when the dust clears? This, of course, is another re-stating of the "majority rules" discussion, but my point is: why does any "god" allow that to be the method by which "right" is determined? Why doesn't "god" or "gods" fight it out amongst themselves, and the last one left standing gets to convert or kill everyone? I believe this is where Free Will might come in. MY OWN BELIEF is that we have Free Will, which God/s permitted and do not interfere with. Therefore, God/s are content to let things be, because this is the way WE want it - to believe in whichever God/s WE want to believe in.
3. If God/s is/are truly omniscient, then he/she/it/they would already know what anyone is doing/going to do all the time...and how do we know that God/s aren't manipulating life, the universe, and everything based upon that knowledge? In other words, I'm talking about pre-destination, but one which not only doesn't negate or interfere with Free Will, but which is determined by, or at least, takes into account, that foreknowledge. Now, some people think pre-destination is "wrong" because it doesn't allow Free Will, but if it does allow it, then does that make it "wrong"?
4. There are some who believe that everything happens for a reason. Someone gets murdered, and the victim's spouse ends up a counsellor helping other families of victims, for instance. Did God/s "allow" the original murder to happen - or, even, manipulate it into happening - in order so that person's spouse could help others? And is that right, or wrong? After all, murders happen, because someone CHOOSES to commit it. And even if we lock up one murderer, there will always be another. So, back to the original question, do bad things happen to good people so that something else good may come of it? Actually I guess this is a re-stating of the "how destructive is destruction" discussion. And the answer seems to be: it depends upon your point of view. Sometimes, when something is destroyed, it is to make way for something else good. But sometimes, it just ends something irreplaceable. Like the memories and experiences of the murder victim. Of course, if you believe in reincarnation, you might believe instead that the victim was a murderer in a previous life, and is now the victim either to punish or to teach the "soul" - depending upon how benevolent you believe God is.
Ok, I think that's enough for now! (Whew!)

"They've gone to *plaid*!"

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Monday, June 28, 2004 8:07 AM

FEMALEJAYNE

Athism is not believing in any form of god and Angostism is not being sure. Trust me when I say this, everyone in the entire world struggles with faith or belief or not to believe. Conflict is how we form oppinions. Look at the Cappy, he doesn't want to believe because he's angry. Even Book stuggles with doubt in 'Out of Gas'

Even people with strong faiths/beliefs should take the it what we do point of view. what makes us human are our flaws what gives us humanity is how we treat others.

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Monday, June 28, 2004 12:15 PM

HEB

Quote:
Originally posted by FemaleJayne:
Athism is not believing in any form of god and Angostism is not being sure. Trust me when I say this, everyone in the entire world struggles with faith or belief or not to believe. Conflict is how we form oppinions. Look at the Cappy, he doesn't want to believe because he's angry. Even Book stuggles with doubt in 'Out of Gas'

Even people with strong faiths/beliefs should take the it what we do point of view. what makes us human are our flaws what gives us humanity is how we treat others.

Thanks for the reply. I guess I'm somewhere in between the two but nearer the atheism side. I don't rule out a God but I think there not being one is the most likely option.

Well, my sister's a ship... we had a
complicated childhood

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Monday, June 28, 2004 12:25 PM

JCOBB

Quote:
Originally posted by DigificWriter:
On the subject of morality, morals and religion are not the same thing; they're taken to be, but they're not. One can be moral and still not have religion/faith. Most of my dad's side of the family are not religious in any way, and yet I would consider them to be moral people.

Yes, but without some grand moral fabric that the universe was threaded through then there isn't any overriding morality. Morality is what society establishes it to be. One is forced to believe that there was a time when slavery and persecution of those different by skin tone, creed, or religion, was purely acceptable. And even this isn't some lofty peak, it is fairly subjective.

I don't care, I'm still free.

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Sunday, July 4, 2004 12:36 AM

CLOVIS

Quote:
Originally posted by JCobb:

Maybe for society, but why is society the end-all be-all? Non society based animals rape, and "murder" and yet they survive, and often thrive.

This leapt out at me and I had to say something. Can animals really 'rape'? You seem to acknowledge (with the quote marks) that the concept of 'murder' for an animal is a falsity, yet it seems to me you're inferring a human meaning and construct, a transgression of complex moral and societal codes, from the percieved sexual behaviour of animals.

For simplicity, I'm using the term animals to mean, 'any creature that isn't human'.

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Sunday, July 4, 2004 5:12 AM

FEMALEJAYNE

If something we do hurts someone else it's wrong. Rape and Murder are things people plan to hurt other people it can ruin people's lives.
There are two things I know when it comes to believing in God or anything really. The first is what I believe in the most, the idea of God is so much better than living a life without. Hope is the most important emotion, without it we die. Not phyiscally but in realationships and personaitly. The second is faith to believe in something without knowing, that's why it's faith. Faith feeds hope and keeps hope alive. If I'm wrong and there is no such God to believe in who do I hurt? I don't want to force my beliefs on you or anyone, but that's my piece.

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Friday, July 16, 2004 7:48 PM

SHINY4004

Quote:
Originally posted by FemaleJayne:
Athism is not believing in any form of god and Angostism is not being sure. .

Yeah I'm pretty sure that athism is believing that there is no god. But I always thought that angostism meant not believing in organized religion...although the not being sure thing makes sense too.

"Oh I'm going to the special hell."-Mal

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