FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Is Firefly Amoral Familism?

POSTED BY: TWO
UPDATED: Friday, October 5, 2012 15:09
SHORT URL: http://bit.ly/PtaiTo
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Friday, September 14, 2012 6:37 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/09/family-values.html
Quote:

In a famous study half a century ago, the political scientist Edward Banfield coined the term "amoral familism" to describe how family solidarities in a southern Italian village decreased engagement in and trust of the political community as a whole. Rather than see their futures wrapped up in the success of their country and civic community, the villagers sought to maximize their family's situation by any means necessary, no matter what the cost to the larger community.

Over the past few years, economists studying social capital around the world have been studying the question anew, and have generally found that Banfield was on to something. In an important paper, Alberto Alesina and Paola Giuliano looked at 80 countries and found that those where the family ties were weakest tended to have the strongest levels of civic and political engagement and generalized social trust. And vice versa. The top performers in terms of civic engagement were northern European countries: Denmark, the Netherlands, Lithuania, and Germany. At the bottom were the Philippines, Venezuela, Egypt, and Zimbabwe. The U.S. (the greatest democracy in the history of the universe) came in 50th.

The Godfather: Part 2 - Corleone Family Flashback


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Friday, September 14, 2012 9:36 AM

WISHIMAY


This country was founded by people that wanted to break away from their own societies and form their OWN groups. We are genetically predisposed to not be as interactive and to be wary for we are surrounded with people we do not understand (and come from places that were generally too heavy-handed in rule) and now we have a government that CLEARLY does not actively care about the health or comfort of it's citizens, instead focusing on it's own ego driven quest for supremacy and piety. Only care about your government when you HAVE to, as it will only concern itself with YOU when it has to, and usually- to YOUR detriment......
And THAT'S why we are the way we are.

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Friday, September 14, 2012 10:26 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:
......And THAT'S why we are the way we are.

Too abstractly political for me. I wasn't thinking that the Corleone's Sicilian peasant society transplanted to the USA was like Firefly out on the Rim. I was thinking much more specifically: that the Corleone family dining room table was about the same size as Serenity's dining room table and same kinds of conversations were held at both tables - all for the good of the family.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Friday, September 14, 2012 11:13 AM

BYTEMITE


Eh, the difference between Serenity and Sicily is that one of them involves a group of Robin Hood-esque archetypes. The merry men had to feed themselves too, you know.

Plus, consider that study about weak family ties, and consider taken to extreme examples like 1984 where kids are encouraged to turn their parents in as traitors whether they are or not.

Illegality and Amorality: not necessarily the same thing.

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Friday, September 14, 2012 12:05 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Eh, the difference between Serenity and Sicily is that one of them involves a group of Robin Hood-esque archetypes. The merry men had to feed themselves too, you know.

Mal is Robin Hood-esque? I don't get it. Well, he did give away the loot in Better Days, but he didn't give it to the poor. It was to the corrupt law enforcement as a ransom for Zoe. And the Train Job, a town dies if Mal doesn't give back the drugs. That wasn't Robin Hood, either. If Mal had done anything else, he'd be an evil monster. Don Corleone would have been repelled by such behavior.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Friday, September 14, 2012 4:38 PM

WISHIMAY


I'm not so sure Mal wouldn't have been Robin Hood-ish were he eventually successful, though he probably wouldn't have admitted it. Mal's the kind of guy that likely would help people out anonymously, because after all- he has a heart- in as much as he would deny it. Mal's petty retaliations on the government is all about avenging his honor, because that is all he can do. A guy like that has a code, but you only see it when the chips are down...

I don't see ANY paralel between the Mob and Serenity. The Mob is about power-grabbing for it's own sake, and are just a bunch of over-glorified thugs and control freaks...If anything the Mob is more like the Alliance.

Also, I think the notion that Robin Hood would have been monastic-like in his "giving to the poor" was probably an intentional mis-representation to that much more further the cause. "Robin only helps those he deems worthy" is just not as romantical a notion. Chances are, if you give ALL you have without reserves to others, there is most likely something very wrong with your brain. So Robin Hood was either a mental case or the more likely- an overly romantisized leader...

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Friday, September 14, 2012 5:08 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by two:
Mal is Robin Hood-esque?



Yep.

Quote:

And the Train Job, a town dies if Mal doesn't give back the drugs. That wasn't Robin Hood, either. If Mal had done anything else, he'd be an evil monster.


Ask yourself a slightly altered scenario: if someone took the drugs, and Mal heard about the suffering of the townspeople, would they have gone after the thieves and brought the drugs back? It'd be pretty monstrous to ignore the townspeople there too. So of course they would have done it. And if they had - Robin hood comparisons ahoy.

They deliberately try to steal only from the rich (partially because they can't make overhead stealing from the poor, but also because there's only so much that Mal can live with himself). The only reason the crew stole the medicine in the train job was because they just thought it was the alliance's medicine, they didn't know the whole story.

Also, he took on a job to chase off bandits that had been preying on the Triumph settlers completely pro-bono. I'll admit that's a bit more magnificent seven than robin hood, but the sentiment is basically the same.

And in Jaynestown, Inara immediately assumes Fess means Mal when he mentions someone stealing money from the magristrate and distributing it to the mudders. She all but uses the term "Robin Hood." It seemed entirely within Inara's understanding of Mal's character, which suggests she's seen him do something similar before. It's possible she's simply self-deluding herself do to her unconfessed infatuation, but I have doubts, Inara is a very sharp and educated women and she'd recognize if Mal was faking the streak of goodness and nobility he has in him.

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Saturday, September 15, 2012 12:20 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


I'm pretty sure Mal is a gangster, when you look dispassionately at the his robbing and his killing and ignore his pretty face. I admit he is a handsome & charming gangster with a soul, but so were Marlon Brando and Al Pacino as the Corleone gang leaders.

( Ariel = Alliance hospital robbery. Trash = Alliance general's robbery. Serenity = Alliance payroll robbery.) Mal's many homicides? Might be a tinge wrong.
Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Ask yourself a slightly altered scenario:

What Mal really needs after the movie is somebody to lease Serenity and crew. Mal needs something legitimate for Serenity . . . that doesn't involve robbery. I was thinking Serenity is leased to either a philanthropist that Inara knows or a large charitable organization such as Doctors Without Boarders. I'm trying to think of who should be the hypothetical medical staff . . .

Just to be clear, that does not mean Mal cannot do some smuggling on the side. And he can still get into fights, but now his day job is transporting a doctor with operating room to Rim moons that don't have doctors. Mal has quit robbing and gone, mostly, legit.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Saturday, September 15, 2012 5:04 AM

WISHIMAY


If a Gov't asassin, a couple thugs, and a couple demented rulers try to kill me while I'm trying to do business and I take them out it does not make me gangster. Sure, when you look at it dispassionately, he looks bad, but when you look at ANYTHING dispassionately it looks bad... The people he killed were scum and if they had played by the rules, nobody would have gotten dead. He did what he had to do at the time.. True he's a thief, but a thief with a purpose. I think the difference is intent (although I admit I've never seen more than five minutes of the Godfather movies, but I'll bet they were highly romantisized as well. Reality is usually much more different than Hollywood) Alliance literally destroyed Mal's world, had they not- I'm pretty sure he'd be running the farm with some pretty gal by his side, not out trying to right a wrong. I doubt that any Mobster has even half as good intent.

I do agree that eventually he wouldve had to find some other use for Serenity. We all gotta move on sometime...


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Saturday, September 15, 2012 9:10 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:
Sure, when you look at it dispassionately, he looks bad, but when you look at ANYTHING dispassionately it looks bad...

There is a cartoon about rationalizing that got on Youtube: The Truth About Dishonesty, published on Sep 14, 2012 by theRSAorg
Dan Ariely, professor of psychology and behavioral economics at Duke University, examines the mechanisms at work behind dishonest behavior, and the implications this has for all aspects of our social and political lives.



The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Saturday, September 15, 2012 10:30 AM

BYTEMITE


Self defense and homicide aren't the same thing. When someone is just simply annoying or inconvenient Mal DOESN'T kill them, like in the Ariel theft, they just knocked out the arrogant doctor even though he could've possibly identified them. Mal only actually kills people if they threaten him or his crew first, and sometimes not even then. It makes Mal's life more difficult, but then again, Mal has to live with himself.

So yeah, the Robin Hood thing still pretty much applies. Or if you don't like that, Mal is basically a future Butch Cassidy - he robs from the people it makes sense to rob, gives back what wins him sympathy to the people who might shelter them, and rarely ever kills because he has a code against that.

Sicilian mafia and gangsters will kill people if they're just inconvenient or who could rat them out, so yes, there is a very large difference between them and Mal.

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Saturday, September 15, 2012 12:29 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
It makes Mal's life more difficult, but then again, Mal has to live with himself.

You make Mal sound like he is a deep thinker.

Mal's no Buddhist, but he really needs the Right Livelihood. I'm almost certain, but I'm open to reason, that Robbery is the Wrong Livelihood - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_Eightfold_Path#Right_livelihood

Mal wants the whole Universe to get out of his way. If it doesn't move quickly enough, beware the Wrath of Mal.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Saturday, September 15, 2012 12:57 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by two:
Mal wants the whole Universe to get out of his way. If it doesn't move quickly enough, beware the Wrath of Mal.


And I am totally, completely down with that - s'why I like the guy.
As for "Robbery" - you call it theft, some call it taxes, some call it profit.

That, my friend, is ENTIRELY a matter of perspective.

-F

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Saturday, September 15, 2012 1:10 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

You make Mal sound like he is a deep thinker.


Well, he has read a poem. :)

But I was more meaning...

Quote:

Mal's no Buddhist, but he really needs the Right Livelihood. I'm almost certain, but I'm open to reason, that Robbery is the Wrong Livelihood


He'd actually agree with you on that one. There's indications in both the show and the movie that Mal's conflicted over the lifestyle, especially in regards to where it might concern or damage other people like the crew (as in, not rich, the downtrodden). He tries to limit that impact by being choosey about his jobs, but that doesn't win him any favours with the other criminals who he has to go begging jobs from, since they think he's a bit self-righteous because of it.

It's the only way he can see to survive though, and at the same time feel like he hasn't surrendered. It's kind of sad.

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Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:37 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
It's the only way he can see to survive though, and at the same time feel like he hasn't surrendered. It's kind of sad.

The perfect time for Mal to break from gangsterism is when the Serenity comic gets rebooted as a monthly. The Whedons could give Mal reasons to stop robbing. Mal won't get religion; it's not the Whedon style. This doesn't sound right: "Mal, when did you start obeying the Ten Commandments?" - Jayne Cobb.

What will Mal do without the random thrills, the highs and lows, of crime? The Whedons have the same problem as Mal – what to do with Mal's life. Can the Whedons think of something new for Mal? Will his new life be entertaining? Will the comic sell?

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, September 17, 2012 9:05 AM

OLDGUY

What Would Mal do ?


thanks for an interesting thread...makes me stop n think for a bit (not that I'm particularly good at that)

this is kind of at the core of what attracted me to Firefly to begin with.

I never expected our rag tag crew to be the 'A-team' or the Leverage team ..maybe closer to Robin Hood in that the situation was forced upon them.

Wasn't surprised at the choices made with Heart of Gold but i agree I didn't look for them to be weekly episodes of going out to help someone else.
This was about choosing not to live under a society that felt like poison to them in so many ways and for most of them, there was little really being offered..not like they had great opptys to make tons of money or hold prestigious positions of power...and even those that may have done well (Doc and maybe Shepard) had other personal reasons for their paths.

It was that sense of living very far off the edge of the map, having to duck n dodge every time they dared to venture into any degree of civilization.
That the very basics of an old ship, clothing, food and even sense of family were all wrapped up in a very small world that had already lost the big war.

Since it was hollywood, they were all relatively attractive..real life might now have been so kind..in fact it would be fun to see how some of us, being honest, might cast the crew...same male/female roles, but with unattractives.

There's a high tech gal I work with...sweet heart and a friend, but she's certainly not Kaylee...lacks about 3inches in height and legs, but carries an extra 100lbs and sports a nice mustache...might be harder to write the love scenes with the Doc for that one. and yet, the same desire to live free exists in my friend and she has some real mechanic/tech skills.

Is Mal a Robin Hood? sometimes..if it made sense to him..but it isn't his mission.. He has no intention of overthrowing the sheriff. He just wants to live free apart from a world that no longer values his once held moral (and religious) code.

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Monday, September 17, 2012 9:28 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Is Mal a Robin Hood? sometimes..if it made sense to him..but it isn't his mission.. He has no intention of overthrowing the sheriff. He just wants to live free apart from a world that no longer values his once held moral (and religious) code.


Ah, but you have to consider it in terms of his character arc. This is what he SAYS, but is it what he feels? Given the choice between what's sensible and convenient for him and what is right, Mal tends to fall on the side of right more often than not, which is part of the reason they have trouble finding work and why they're so poor.

Logically he knows better than to poke the Alliance's sleeping dragon, and he's more than willing to pick and choose his battles now that he's older and wiser and maybe feels a little used by the Independents. He probably wouldn't go that particular route again if the Independents ever did actually rise up and start recruiting for another war. But in the movie he's pushed to confront the Alliance, and while he didn't really have a choice, it's a step on the road to some greater story for him.

One of the more positive possibilities along that trend is Mal reclaims his ideals and heroism, which he hasn't quite abandoned completely. And if he does, and if the expression of his heroism comes with more conflict against the Alliance or Blue Sun, then Mal likely becomes very much a Robin Hood figure.

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Tuesday, September 18, 2012 3:25 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
. . . it's a step on the road to some greater story for him. One of the more positive possibilities along that trend is Mal reclaims his ideals and heroism, which he hasn't quite abandoned completely. . .

Mal will be forced to or else die. Being a criminal is harder than ever because Mal and Serenity will get police surveillance like never before.

After Miranda, Mal should be at the top of Interpol's suspected criminal list, or whatever Interplanetary police are named. And that ship of his is almost one of his body parts. Where Serenity refuels or docks, Interpol will know where he is. Mal's criminal life is much more difficult, assuming the Whedons don't purge Mal's records magically. Official amnesia? Lost his file? A little too convenient for believable stories.

I'm thinking Mal must become less criminal or else Interpol will harass him endlessly, again assuming the Whedons don't magically make Interpol so incompetent that it can't stop criminals that habitually rob Alliance payrolls and Alliance hospitals and the homes of Alliance generals (retired).

You might imagine Mal becoming a super cautious criminal that slips around police surveillance. But caution does not seem to be in his DNA.

In his new life after the movie Mal needs to stop robbing the Alliance or else he will piss them off and they will end him without a trial. The Alliance seems crude enough to murder annoyances such as Mal just on strong suspicion. He has been released before, but I think those days of leniency are in the past because of his most recent history.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Tuesday, September 18, 2012 4:47 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Mal will be forced to or else die.


Yes, that's unfortunately the OTHER likely outcome. Mal may very well be in a death spiral. After seeing the movie we'd like to think that tying Book and their Haven friends to Serenity and losing Wash was his lowest point, but maybe it's not, and his story will just continue to get more tragic and desperate and reckless and lost until the inevitable happens. Perhaps what good that appears to happen for Mal is just a temporary reprieve from the darkness which will quickly cloud in again. Or the good outcomes we've seen may actually make things worse in the long run.

Quote:

Mal's criminal life is much more difficult, assuming the Whedons don't purge Mal's records magically. Official amnesia? Lost his file? A little too convenient for believable stories.


I think I read somewhere that the Operative did doctor some files and revoked their fugitive status before he went AWOL, including for Simon and River (maybe in the novelization?), but he says in the movie that the Alliance is likely to continue looking for Simon and River and they might just put out new warrants. But in the movie the Operative specifically calls out that the Alliance is ONLY interested in Simon and River. Mal and crew may be in the clear.

Quote:

The Alliance seems crude enough to murder annoyances such as Mal just on strong suspicion.


The Alliance seems crude enough that they'd make up some evidence that Mal and Zoe rejoined the Dust Devils and they were the ones who bombarded the settlement on Haven, and they're now terrorists to be executed on sight. Wanted Dead or Alive.

But, I haven't gotten that vibe yet from what little we have from the end of the movie or post-movie.

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Tuesday, September 18, 2012 6:27 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Mal may very well be in a death spiral . . . and his story will just continue to get more tragic and desperate and reckless and lost until the inevitable happens.

There are stories where Mal continues his morally compromised lifestyle, and the Alliance strategically keeps a distance from Serenity for good reasons, and I get entertained:

"You owe me your life," says the Operative.

"I'd say we're even," firmly declares Mal.

"Your crew's lives don't count? And there would be satisfaction seeing Adelai Niska dead."

"I'm never sentimental except about being paid. And I never like meeting reprehensible people. Ain't speaking of Niska, either."

Mal and the Operative negotiate a deal. Mal as the bait for catching Niska is less terrible than Mal becoming a law-abiding-pussy. He'd be better off dead. The stories Mal will tell in his old age about bringing down bigger criminals for the law. Jayne's grandchildren will laugh at Grandpa's wicked exploits!

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Tuesday, September 18, 2012 7:33 AM

BYTEMITE


Who says he has to be law-abiding? The choice I was thinking of was more that he either dies or becomes a hero again, at least in the plan for the series anyway.

If he lives past the events of the series he can retire, but then he might get involved in a posse or vigilantism or other western tropes to keep things interesting. Or even capers. ROBIN HOOD capers! Stealing back taxes of poor farmers and ranchers from tax collectors or loan sharks. Fighting off land barons, bandits, cattle rustlers, horse thieves, slavers, or making a stand for free rangers or free-booters or bootleggers or moonshiners everywhere.

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Tuesday, September 18, 2012 9:14 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Who says he has to be law-abiding? The choice I was thinking of was more that he either dies or becomes a hero again, at least in the plan for the series anyway.

I can only dream as far ahead as the next Serenity comic in 2014 or 2015.

Interpol will never ignore Mal after Miranda. Mal is responsible for thousands killed on that one day. Now he is notorious amongst criminals and the law. Criminals that might have allied with Mal were killed by the Operative. The Alliance military hate Mal for all the ships Reavers destroyed.

When I start listing things I always forget some, but Mal has only a few choices. Get out of crime because Interpol is constantly watching him (which makes for boring stories). Get deeper into crime working as a stool pigeon for Interpol (which goes against Mal's grain). Get deeper into crime and have Interpol arrest/execute him (which is a terrible option). Make new friends that protect him from Interpol (which is the best option. Where/Who are Mal's new friends? God and Joss only know, but please don't make them the Browncoats. I don't want him to re-fight the Unification War and lose.)

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Tuesday, September 18, 2012 9:58 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Interpol will never ignore Mal after Miranda. Mal is responsible for thousands killed on that one day. Now he is notorious amongst criminals and the law. Criminals that might have allied with Mal were killed by the Operative. The Alliance military hate Mal for all the ships Reavers destroyed.


Well... That really depends on how much information got out after the Operative squelched it. There might be maybe a thousand people involved in tugboating Serenity to port for repairs. The rest might not know much about the action or why they were there or why the Reavers attacked. Also, it's a big verse, chances of running into the any of the people who know about it might be small (Book was pretty unlucky).

And surely the Alliance and it's law enforcement and military branches have better things to do than chase down a worthless and luckless smuggler for revenge, assuming they even know or care about him. However if they found out about him in the sense of his association with River and Simon and later on maybe even other fugitives, they might resume interest.

That said, I do like this idea:

Quote:

Make new friends that protect him from Interpol (which is the best option. Where/Who are Mal's new friends? God and Joss only know, but please don't make them the Browncoats. I don't want him to re-fight the Unification War and lose.


We never did find out much about the underground group Simon worked with to get River out...

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Tuesday, September 18, 2012 10:58 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Since it was hollywood, they were all relatively attractive..real life might now have been so kind..in fact it would be fun to see how some of us, being honest, might cast the crew...same male/female roles, but with unattractives.


I think a real life Jayne would probably look like the guy who played Marv in the sin city movie. Chiseled, nose and even maybe face broken a dozen times, built like a brick house.

Mal would probably still have to have some looks because he tries to be the business man and talker for the Serenity crew, and people tend to listen to people who aren't completely scary looking. However, he would have WAY more scars than they showed Nathan Fillion with - I mean, supposedly Mal's been hit at least once with shrapnel, and judging by his tendencies to get into trouble and defy common sense, possibly more than once. Maybe the scars don't detract from his face much (maybe lots of little dark shrapnel line scars on one side of his face), but he'd be a mess everywhere else.

Zoe is more careful than Mal, she'd probably have scars too though. Not as many as Mal - mostly because that's symbollic. Maybe hers are mostly torture/interrogation related after capture, like someone slicing her ears or something. Though she might have something that suggests how and why she thinks she owes Mal so much loyalty, like if she has an artificial leg.

Wash would still be blond-strawberry blond, it fits his lighthearted personality. Inara would be drop dead gorgeous and probably played by Morena still, because she's a companion, she's supposed to look near unattainable. Book can be also played by Ron Glass again in this scenario, Book needs to look grandfatherly.

River might look a little more unkempt and thin and even a little lanky and awkward, like she hasn't grown into her last growth spurt because it was interrupted by the Academy experimenting on her. Simon could look like a geek/nerd.

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Wednesday, September 19, 2012 6:00 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
We never did find out much about the underground group Simon worked with to get River out...

Let's create some facts about that underground for stories about Mal's new friends, post movie. He needs friends.

The underground is Russian and one of them trained River to fight. That is why "eta kooram nah smech" was River's password. The phrase is easily spoken by the Russian trainer who, hypothetically, is in the most danger while teaching River. The trainer believed Dr Mathias was an absurd little man and put that sentiment into the password. She neither liked Dr Mathias nor what he was doing to River.


The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, October 1, 2012 2:47 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Self defense and homicide aren't the same thing. When someone is just simply annoying or inconvenient Mal DOESN'T kill them, like in the Ariel theft, they just knocked out the arrogant doctor even though he could've possibly identified them. Mal only actually kills people if they threaten him or his crew first, and sometimes not even then. It makes Mal's life more difficult, but then again, Mal has to live with himself.

So yeah, the Robin Hood thing still pretty much applies. Or if you don't like that, Mal is basically a future Butch Cassidy - he robs from the people it makes sense to rob, gives back what wins him sympathy to the people who might shelter them, and rarely ever kills because he has a code against that.

Sicilian mafia and gangsters will kill people if they're just inconvenient or who could rat them out, so yes, there is a very large difference between them and Mal.



Mal does shoot the unarmed Alliance pilot on Haven. Mal may not shoot unarmed people all the time, but I think that he will shoot someone who could rat him out if he thought it was needed to protect his ship.

Mal is not gangster, but he is not Robin Hood either. He has a conscious but that only keeps him in check to a certain point. He knew in the episode "Serenity" Dobson was going to have to be killed. He told Simon that it should be he (Simon) to do it. Had Dobson not gotten out of his room I thing Mal would have killed him later on.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Monday, October 1, 2012 2:57 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by two:
Interpol will never ignore Mal after Miranda. Mal is responsible for thousands killed on that one day. Now he is notorious amongst criminals and the law. Criminals that might have allied with Mal were killed by the Operative. The Alliance military hate Mal for all the ships Reavers destroyed.



If the Alliance want's Mal and Serenity they are doomed. Serenity could not land on any planet with port control, which if a backwater like Higgin's Moon has a vast majority of planets most likely have.

I still say the Alliance may very well have bigger issues after the Miranda wave is out than to worry about getting revenge on Mal. Plus we don't know what the Operative reported to the Parliament, or to who. He may have not told them who the Tams where traveling with. He may have made a cover story to explain Serenity's crew and ship being repaired. Lots of options. Oh, and nothing indicates that all the criminals Mal works with are killed by the Operative, just those who sheltered Serenity. So folks like Badger would still be around.

The thing that make the Alliance so scary is the fact that if you are on their radar, you are pretty much dead. Mal and the crew pulled out the mother of all Hail Marys in the movie. I very much doubt they could do it again.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Monday, October 1, 2012 5:04 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Mal does shoot the unarmed Alliance pilot on Haven. Mal may not shoot unarmed people all the time, but I think that he will shoot someone who could rat him out if he thought it was needed to protect his ship.


That was not a usual situation. Mal was very close to completely losing it there. It doesn't excuse it, but you can't really use that as a basis for his normal behaviour.

And I think it was less so much he was concerned the pilot would rat them out, and more that Mal was pissed off that the pilot had just bombarded a civilian settlement in cold blood. While Mal's equally cold-blooded reprisal killing can't be defended under any civilian or martial law, it is somewhat understandable.

I do agree that he'll shoot unarmed people to defend his ship - he kicked Crow into the engine for example - but I also think that in a lot of the examples there were extenuating circumstances, not killing someone because it was convenient or easy, but when they made themselves an obvious and dangerous threat. The exception is the pilot in the movie, not the rule.

Quote:

He knew in the episode "Serenity" Dobson was going to have to be killed. He told Simon that it should be he (Simon) to do it. Had Dobson not gotten out of his room I thing Mal would have killed him later on.


Zoe seems to have thought that was a very bad idea, because they didn't know whether someone would notice Dobson missing. We can speculate, but really all we have is the scary attitude Mal was giving Simon the whole episode; apart from that initially Mal seemed to agree with Zoe, in that they didn't kill Dobson right off and they were simply holding him captive.

Also, Dobson kept waving a gun around, and Mal had decided to take Simon and River under his wing by then. Dobson had a nasty tendency to threaten his crew, and when Mal walked up Dobson was again threatening, in Mal's mind, his new crewmembers. I'm still going to call that self defense, some jurisdictions consider intervening in a miscarriage of justice or a felony assault under the self-defense category.

In general, I don't think either of the above are enough to derail Mal from chaotic good to grey. The closest argument would actually not have anything to do with the way people tend to die around Mal, but rather Mal's one truly selfish act I can think of - giving away all his crew's money in Better Days so they have to stay with him. And despite the ramifications of that (it pretty much indirectly led to Wash dying), it still doesn't push him into amorality.

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Friday, October 5, 2012 3:18 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


I would agree with chaotic-good to grey. That being said I don't think someone has to be selfish to be act amorally. Outside of the killing that crew and Mal do they also do quit a bit of stealing. Now they often do a fair bit of self justification while do it, but in the end it is still amoral.

The crew steals the meds from the Alliance hospital to make a profit. Yes, they are selling it in areas where it is needed, but they are still selling it, and doing so for more than just what it takes to fuel that ship and feed the crew.

You bring up the comics, which I try to ignore, look at how Better Days starts. They steal from a monistary. Again they give some money in an attempt to justify, or make right, their actions but they are still stealing. Even in Trash they try and justify stealing the Lassiter because of who they are taking it from. Well that is if you really believe Saffron.



I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, October 5, 2012 5:34 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

The crew steals the meds from the Alliance hospital to make a profit. Yes, they are selling it in areas where it is needed, but they are still selling it, and doing so for more than just what it takes to fuel that ship and feed the crew.


It's very likely that in the original Robin Hood stories, if Robin Hood and the merry men were real, they kept at least some of the wealth they stole in order to keep themselves fed, clothed, and armed. Ultimately there are limits to how "Robin Hood-like" a real person can be compared to the mythic figure.

I think if Mal had the option, he'd be happy to do charity work in between earning money to keep them in the air. I actually agree with Two's ideas to some degree, I'd like to see Mal become involved with a charitable organization, possibly through Inara, but I also don't think he'd give up crime if he were doing that as he has too little respect for Alliance law for that. Charity work with some smuggling and tariff dodging, basically, and of course skirmishes when other groups try to steal the aid parcels from the crew during delivery.

Quote:

They steal from a monistary. Again they give some money in an attempt to justify, or make right, their actions but they are still stealing.


Not quite. One thief had buried a big cache of money underneath a Buddhist monastery, possibly before it was even built or during construction. Another thief told the crew about a rumour of a lot of money under the monastery that no one ever came back for or claimed. The monks didn't know the cache was there. If they had, the monk probably wouldn't have mentioned Jayne Cobb's own Robin Hood-esque hero of Canton legend when Jayne gave him money. So, it was treasure hunting, not stealing.

Quote:

Even in Trash they try and justify stealing the Lassiter because of who they are taking it from. Well that is if you really believe Saffron.



True. But that's what actually puts this IN Robin Hood Territory. Even if Haymer isn't as bad as Saffron says, they still make an effort to mostly steal from the rich or well off. In Robin Hood and the original stories, he was actually stealing back taxes collected by the Sheriff of Nottingham, but in more modern days that's been conflated to Robin Hood stealing from rich people just passing through Sherwood Forest, whether or not they were cruel or evil.

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Friday, October 5, 2012 5:59 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
I would agree with chaotic-good to grey. That being said I don't think someone has to be selfish to be act amorally. Outside of the killing that crew and Mal do they also do quit a bit of stealing. Now they often do a fair bit of self justification while do it, but in the end it is still amoral.

This is why Serenity is not a monthly comic: too much mental strain for a writer to justify new homicides by Mal every 30, 60, or 90 days. The Whedons should heartily go with "amoral familism", which succinctly justifies stealing from ( or killing ) anyone outside the "family" -- by family I mean the crew of Serenity. There is less mental strain on the writer and stories are much easier to devise.

The Walking Dead comics, which are big sellers, are an example of "amoral familism" in comics. There is even a TV show. Think about a monthly Serenity comic that eventually spins off a show on HBO or AMC!


The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Friday, October 5, 2012 6:01 AM

BYTEMITE


I think most of us would consider the crew becoming a bunch of sociopaths major character derailment.

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Friday, October 5, 2012 6:05 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I think most of us would consider the crew becoming a bunch of sociopaths major character derailment.

But if you look at it from the crew's side, they're not sociopaths. Same with The Walking Dead TV show. We're all just trying to survive the Alliance or the Zombie Apocalypse the best we can. It just so happens that some actors get in the way and have to leave the show earlier than they would like.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Friday, October 5, 2012 6:31 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
It's very likely that in the original Robin Hood stories, if Robin Hood and the merry men were real, they kept at least some of the wealth they stole in order to keep themselves fed, clothed, and armed. Ultimately there are limits to how "Robin Hood-like" a real person can be compared to the mythic figure.

I think if Mal had the option, he'd be happy to do charity work in between earning money to keep them in the air. I actually agree with Two's ideas to some degree, I'd like to see Mal become involved with a charitable organization, possibly through Inara, but I also don't think he'd give up crime if he were doing that as he has too little respect for Alliance law for that. Charity work with some smuggling and tariff dodging, basically, and of course skirmishes when other groups try to steal the aid parcels from the crew during delivery.



I have no doubts that Robin Hood would have taken some of what he stole to keep he and his men fed. That is not what we saw after the crew stole the meds. They were clearly making more money that what they needed to keep the ship in the air and food in their bellies. One of Wash's arguments for selling to the doctors directly was better prices, and I'm pretty sure he meant profit for them.

That is not to say Mal and the crew are not charitable when they can be. We see that a few time where they take jobs for little of no pay because people need help.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Not quite. One thief had buried a big cache of money underneath a Buddhist monastery, possibly before it was even built or during construction. Another thief told the crew about a rumour of a lot of money under the monastery that no one ever came back for or claimed. The monks didn't know the cache was there. If they had, the monk probably wouldn't have mentioned Jayne Cobb's own Robin Hood-esque hero of Canton legend when Jayne gave him money. So, it was treasure hunting, not stealing.



A lot of treasure hunters in history have also been called thiefs. In the end they where still taking money that was not there's and for the purpose of making a profit. They did not go into it with any intent of giving it to charity.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
True. But that's what actually puts this IN Robin Hood Territory. Even if Haymer isn't as bad as Saffron says, they still make an effort to mostly steal from the rich or well off. In Robin Hood and the original stories, he was actually stealing back taxes collected by the Sheriff of Nottingham, but in more modern days that's been conflated to Robin Hood stealing from rich people just passing through Sherwood Forest, whether or not they were cruel or evil.



The key to Robin Hood was what he did with his loot afterwards. Had Robin simply been keeping the money he would not be looked at in the same way. Now the crew of Serenity does go after the well off which does make them better than someone willing to steal from the poor. They also do so because the well off have more to steal.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, October 5, 2012 7:02 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

That is not what we saw after the crew stole the meds. They were clearly making more money that what they needed to keep the ship in the air and food in their bellies.


Sure. But, at the same time, this really isn't that damning. A lot of effort is taken to show that the Alliance hospitals are wasteful with their medicine, that there's a good chance that medicine wouldn't have been used, and also that the Alliance is flush with resources and wealth.

The Alliance doctors certainly aren't selling their services for only the amount of money they need to keep their home and food on the table. The crew is probably selling for less than those doctors would ask, because after all, the medicines are stolen. And anyone distributing something valuable, like medicine, surely has the right to ask for some compensation and a comfortable living.

Stealing from the rich and selling to the poor at reduced cost is not perfectly Robin Hood, but I do think it's in the spirit of it. There is nothing wrong with making a profit so long as no one is harmed.

Actually the more questionable thing about all of this is that there's indications that they weren't selling those medicines for health reasons, but as recreational drugs.

Quote:

A lot of treasure hunters in history have also been called thiefs. In the end they where still taking money that was not there's and for the purpose of making a profit.


Your initial argument was that it was stolen from a monastery of peaceful Buddhist monks, and that reflected poorly on the crew. It wasn't technically. We don't know who the original thieves stole it from, or even if they're still around to claim ownership (or, in the case of say stolen German artwork in WW2, if there are descendants who would claim it).

Maybe if we knew that, we might condemn the initial thieves and also think that the crew should return the money to the victims, as we did and they did when they stole the medicine from Paradiso. As it is, we don't know that - perhaps it was taken from a corrupt land baron.

Semantics says that in the end treasure hunting and thievery are similar, but what the crew was doing here was still technically treasure hunting, they don't become guilty of the original theft by proxy just because by various means they came into possession of the treasure. Not any more than someone buying (or stealing) artwork from an auction where the artwork was stolen from Germany in WW2 becomes guilty of the original theft.

The reason treasure hunters nowadays are looked down on is because it's seen as scavenging and cultural theft - most of them are targeting shipwrecks and there was technically no original theft involved.

In any case, the crew being thieves doesn't exactly preclude them from being Robin Hood-esque. That's not really an argument in contention here.

Quote:

Had Robin simply been keeping the money he would not be looked at in the same way.


Well, if he had been keeping ALL the money, then yes. But it's likely Robin Hood kept some of it. That's just the likely reality.

Quote:

Now the crew of Serenity does go after the well off which does make them better than someone willing to steal from the poor. They also do so because the well off have more to steal.



True. But that's just practical and also decent to poor people. If they stole from poor people they'd just be bullies. And it also doesn't preclude the good deeds they do sometimes for poor people - or that it appears Inara is familiar with a story from Mal's past which makes her think he's a Robin Hood-esque archetype. Or that Jayne IS actually an (accidental) Robin Hood archetype.

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Friday, October 5, 2012 9:22 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Sure. But, at the same time, this really isn't that damning. A lot of effort is taken to show that the Alliance hospitals are wasteful with their medicine, that there's a good chance that medicine wouldn't have been used, and also that the Alliance is flush with resources and wealth.

The Alliance doctors certainly aren't selling their services for only the amount of money they need to keep their home and food on the table. The crew is probably selling for less than those doctors would ask, because after all, the medicines are stolen. And anyone distributing something valuable, like medicine, surely has the right to ask for some compensation and a comfortable living.

Stealing from the rich and selling to the poor at reduced cost is not perfectly Robin Hood, but I do think it's in the spirit of it. There is nothing wrong with making a profit so long as no one is harmed.

Actually the more questionable thing about all of this is that there's indications that they weren't selling those medicines for health reasons, but as recreational drugs.



I don't think there is anything wrong in making a profit, but I disagree that it is vein as Robin Hood. Maybe if they where selling the meds directly to be local Doctors that would be closer, but they where selling to the middle men. Regardless of everything else the crew is still selling and making a profit on stolen goods. I just don't put that in the "steal from the rich and give to the poor" category.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Your initial argument was that it was stolen from a monastery of peaceful Buddhist monks, and that reflected poorly on the crew. It wasn't technically. We don't know who the original thieves stole it from, or even if they're still around to claim ownership (or, in the case of say stolen German artwork in WW2, if there are descendants who would claim it).

Maybe if we knew that, we might condemn the initial thieves and also think that the crew should return the money to the victims, as we did and they did when they stole the medicine from Paradiso. As it is, we don't know that - perhaps it was taken from a corrupt land baron.

Semantics says that in the end treasure hunting and thievery are similar, but what the crew was doing here was still technically treasure hunting, they don't become guilty of the original theft by proxy just because by various means they came into possession of the treasure. Not any more than someone buying (or stealing) artwork from an auction where the artwork was stolen from Germany in WW2 becomes guilty of the original theft.

The reason treasure hunters nowadays are looked down on is because it's seen as scavenging and cultural theft - most of them are targeting shipwrecks and there was technically no original theft involved.

In any case, the crew being thieves doesn't exactly preclude them from being Robin Hood-esque. That's not really an argument in contention here.



Your right them being thieves does not preclude them from being Robin Hood-esque. It is what they do with the things they steal that I think does.

That money under the monistary belongs to someone. If nothing else it would most likley be considared the Monks if the orginal owners did nto claim it.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Well, if he had been keeping ALL the money, then yes. But it's likely Robin Hood kept some of it. That's just the likely reality.



My point is that the crew of Serenity is not just keeping some of the money. They are keeping all the money they make. The whole reason for them to steal the medicine was not to provide it to the poor, but as payment for getting Simon and River into the Hospital.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
True. But that's just practical and also decent to poor people. If they stole from poor people they'd just be bullies. And it also doesn't preclude the good deeds they do sometimes for poor people - or that it appears Inara is familiar with a story from Mal's past which makes her think he's a Robin Hood-esque archetype. Or that Jayne IS actually an (accidental) Robin Hood archetype.



I'm not arguing that any of what they do would preclude the good they do. I'm just not putting them up on the moral scale as Robin Hood. Yes Mal and the crew tend to be decent people, but they will and have done amoral things when it has suited them.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, October 5, 2012 3:09 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

I don't think there is anything wrong in making a profit, but I disagree that it is vein as Robin Hood.


Quote:

Your right them being thieves does not preclude them from being Robin Hood-esque. It is what they do with the things they steal that I think does.


Hmm. I think profit doesn't necessarily preclude being Robin Hood-esque either. Surely Robin Hood benefited from his adventures. He didn't spend all his time starving and giving everything he got back to the people he helped. He appeared to live fairly well despite his charity efforts.

I think all it takes to be Robin Hood-esque is stealing from the rich and helping the poor. I don't think it necessarily has to be a direct transfer of the stolen goods straight to the poor. And I also think it can even happen accidentally, as in Jayne's case.

Quote:

They are keeping all the money they make.


Well, I'm not sure about that. While we don't know the exact amount of money they give back, there's indications that Book donates some of his share on moral principles. Jayne made a donation to the monks in Better Days (and accidentally gave the mudders a bushel of money). Mal offered Saffron money to establish herself and help finding a job (before she turned evil on them). Simon occasionally offers his skills doctoring for free. They might not give a whole lot of money back, and what help they give might not be grand scale but more person to person, but they give back a lot of aid to people they meet.

Quote:

they will and have done amoral things when it has suited them.


I don't really agree. I think that in the context they've acted under and their own moral principles (which may not necessarily jive with the rest of society), they have not really acted amorally.

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