Mal Hated Tracy and Murdered Him because of it by Morse

Eh, I think Tracey wasn't letting them explain, and after he shot Wash and took Kaylee hostage they didn't really want to play ball with him anyway.

They let the Feds walk away because even when they're outside of their jurisdiction and corrupt, not really smart to shoot them. Who knows how they managed to get away with shooting Dobson.

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Tuesday, July 03, 2012 9:01 AM

Disagree and disagree.

They didn't want to play ball with Tracy after he pulled a gun on him? Cus none of them would understand how backed into a corner he is? If you have plan that could save his life like that, a friend who until a few hours earlier they were paying their respects to and taking him back home to be buried, then why not tell him what your doing? There whole plan at this moment in time is to not let Tracy live.

And as for not killing the Feds? The Feds could easily kill them. The second they let them go the Feds could just walk back onto their ship, arm the missiles, and blow Serenity away. As Book said "I don't think anyone would miss you if we laid your bodies to rest in one of these canyons." That applies double to the Serenity, a pirate fringe ship. And now that the Feds know they've been beaten, and there is a ship that knows about them, why not kill them to make sure there aren't any witnesses?

Fact is, Mal is a bad person who everyone pretends is a good person because he carries the stamp of the protagonist. (granted I'm an Alliance supporter, but its hard to argue he's a good person if your actually looking at the facts of what he's done and doing) And Tracy is just another person who he wanted to kill.

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Tuesday, July 03, 2012 10:50 AM

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There whole plan at this moment in time is to not let Tracy live.

Assumption and speculations. Earlier in the season, you might remember that Simon got in a similar situation - the reason he went along with it and they eventually explained is because he didn't SHOOT any of them.

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The Feds could easily kill them.

Not really. Their money was bust, organs lost, and reasonably speaking they probably couldn't even pirate Serenity and make some of the money back because they figured there's no demand for run down aught 03 Fireflies. So not only did they not really have any reason to kill them, but I'm pretty sure the specs for the ASREV they're flying only HAS four missiles. They already used them. Feds got on the ship, were confronted by the scary ape man with a gun, and had to leave.

But that's all beside the question of whether the crew were always planning to kill Tracey, which when they're inviting the organ running feds on the ship, that would be pretty stupid if that was their plan all along, because the Feds wanted Tracey and the organs he was carrying.

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Fact is, Mal is a bad person who everyone pretends is a good person because he carries the stamp of the protagonist. (granted I'm an Alliance supporter, but its hard to argue he's a good person if your actually looking at the facts of what he's done and doing)

I'll be the first to admit Mal's a bad man, but frankly, there's loads more to get him on that he's actually DONE without you needing to accentuate the negative. You're just coming off with a bias here.

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Tuesday, July 03, 2012 11:53 AM

Plus, if he really hated Tracey and just wanted to kill him when he found out he was still alive - why would they transport the body, with Mal's bullet still in it, to Tracey's family? Why not toss him out the airlock, or heck, why not just toss him out the airlock before they even knew he was alive?

No, there's suggestions that Mal did care about him, and that Tracey's death was just a tragic escalation of circumstances and tension. Mal killed him because he threatened Kaylee, and this right after Tracey was flirting with her and appeared to be sweet on her. As the captain of his ship the safety of his crew is his responsibility.

Also, I have to wonder... You... support the Alliance? How and why? They might not all be evil, but after what they did to River, I don't think it's all that wise to trust them with anything else.

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Tuesday, July 03, 2012 12:52 PM

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

I'm not pro-Alliance by any means, but saying that the government as a whole was responsible for what was done to River is akin to saying all of the U.S. government was responsible for the MK-Ultra program.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Tuesday, July 03, 2012 1:18 PM

True, but like I said, it also means you can't really trust any of them, because you don't know the extent of their involvement, and you'd be risking death to find out.

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Tuesday, July 03, 2012 4:16 PM

The Feds still have more ordinance on the ASREV. I've seen numerous specs for them, and missiles are still visible, on top of the bombs that were dropped. Here the Serenity now has at minimum 4 people who know they are not supposed to be there. Yes they have lost the profit, however now they are at risk of losing everything, as that crew could identify them and are generally a risk. (I attribute this more to poor writing, since most criminals aren't prone to leaving loose ends that big, especially when they don't have to)

I also tie it in to Mal always lets the bad people off, and the good people get killed.

But at any moment he could have just told Tracy about the plan, and he didn't. To hell with the fact that Tracy drew a gun, anyone would and they know that. So it's as simple as this.

Why didn't they tell him? What possible good would come from not telling him, if the aim is to not kill him?

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Tuesday, July 03, 2012 6:01 PM

Hmm. Reconsulting the RP handbook I have, it looks like the ASREV has 32 missiles. I must have been misremembering a different ship class.

I'm just going to put this down to a plot hole, unless Book pulled rank on them somehow in that conversation in some way I can't readily see. But I don't really think there's any mysterious and horrible secret here.

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But at any moment he could have just told Tracy about the plan, and he didn't. To hell with the fact that Tracy drew a gun, anyone would and they know that. So it's as simple as this.

Why didn't they tell him? What possible good would come from not telling him, if the aim is to not kill him?

He already shot wash, wasn't listening to them, and they didn't want him shooting Kaylee too. They wanted him to put the gun down before they would talk to the hostage taker. This is also entirely reasonable. Unfortunately, in this case it didn't really work out well for anyone.

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I also tie it in to Mal always lets the bad people off, and the good people get killed.

Oh come on. You know that's just more bias. If you really want to have a discussion here, you've got to be objective. No realistically written character just lets the bad people off while they deliberately kill the good people, just for some kind of evulz.

Mal isn't a villain or even an anti-villain in any sense of the term. That's simply not the role he plays in the story. While the politics might not sit with you, you've got to take things as what they are represented as.

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Tuesday, July 03, 2012 8:40 PM

Safron - Betrayed Mal twice, and the first time around tried to destroy his ship and kill everyone on his crew - let her go

Niska - Criminal mastermind that sent his men twice to capture him and elements of his crew for perceived betrayal. Even though Niska is not seen as being incapable of doing more harm to Mal, and even after he cut off his ear, and his men shot at his crew. - Let him go

Burgess - Even after he led a large group of men against Mal and the whores, and even after he killed the woman that Mal just had sex with, he does not kill him. The man was executed, but Mal did not know that was going to happen. - Let him go

And of course my personal favorite.

Operative - A man who was singularly responsible for many of Mals friends and contacts, and a large number of innocent people caught in the cross fire. - Let him go. (now you'll say "Oh but he changed when he saw what the Alliance really was, and patched up Mals hurt.... but that doesn't excuse the fact that he still killed hundreds, and Mal who openly showed "wrath" towards him. let him go)

But hey, I guess Tracy deserved to get shot cus Mal wasn't willing to raise his voice to say his plan, and all these other people deserved to go.

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Wednesday, July 04, 2012 2:38 AM

Simon and River - caused loads of trouble for him and his crew, before and after he took them in. Simon was a selfish decision, he's a good doctor, and Mal'd be foolish to not offer him a job. But he could ditch River who is unreliable and doesn't pull her weight until much later and when Simon balks at cooperating lock up Simon except for when they need him. He doesn't.

Patience - just looking out for her people, let her go.

Sheriff of Paradiso - could have shot him and taken the medicine. Let him go.

Jayne - is a more decent guy than he at first seems, in the flashback, Jayne has them at gun point and Mal negotiates with him instead.

And there's also plenty of other good guys that Mal might have had the chance to kill and didn't. Niska was an issue where Mal didn't have the chance to finish him off because he ran and more guards showed up. Saffron Mal pitied. Burgess he stayed his hand, much like with Atherton, even though it's pretty obvious he detests people like them.

Basically Mal DOESN'T kill a lot more than he does. And he also doesn't always leave the bad guys alive.

In an unfilmed script - After an explosion at a factory believed to be terrorism, Mal is forced to hunt down one of his former soldiers by the Alliance officiating without even knowing if the former browncoat was responsible. Turns out he was. Mal could have let him go, and doesn't.

You single out one of the few morally ambiguously maybe good persons of the week in the whole series that Mal couldn't save, and say that Mal wanted him to die? Hey, maybe he wanted Nandi to die too. :/ No man, it's an illustration of the reality of the verse. Things aren't clean cut, can't save everyone, and sometimes you regret how things turn out. Tracey lost his head and took Kaylee hostage, and the situation got hot, and someone got shot. It could have been Kaylee, it could have been Kaylee AND Wash. But that time it was Tracey.

Besides, if Mal had killed all the bad guys, would you really switch to defending him for it, or would you say this proves that he's a murder happy psychopath? You can make anyone into a villain if you accentuate the negative. Okay, we get it, you don't like his character and you don't like his politics. But you're looking really hard for evidence that he's also a horrible person, when there are arguably very few characters in Firefly, protagonist or antagonist, who either are irredeemable or shiny with an inner benevolent light.

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Wednesday, July 04, 2012 4:42 AM

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

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Originally posted by Morse: Saffron - let her go

No he didn't. She got the drop on him and she stole the shuttle. Inara trapped her in the garbage bin, and we assume she was captured by the Feds when they found it. How is that letting her go?

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Niska - let him go

Again, no. Niska escaped while Mal was otherwise engaged with his henchman.

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Burgess - let him go

Wrong again. He turned Burgess over to Nandi's people. It is irrelevant whether or not Mal knew Petaline was going to shoot him.

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Operative

I'll grant you Mal probably should have killed The Operative, but maybe that's an indication that Mal is a better man than you give him credit for, rather than the opposite.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Wednesday, July 04, 2012 8:15 AM

Patience - Mal shot first.

Sheriff - Mal and Zoey were surrounded and outgunned. (more or less ambushed) Besides that plays into another argument of people saying the Alliance is evil, when Mal stole the medicine in the first place. The Alliance was giving them the medicine. It'd be like if Prince John was giving money to the poor, and Robin Hood stole the money and gave it to the poor.

Jayne - Well if Jayne betrayed them and held a gun on Mal, why did he not try to negotiate with Tracy. All he did was call Tracy stupid, and at no point tried to tell him about the plan. = Mal wants to kill Tracy

And as for Mal being a Villain, thats exactly what he is. He lets the really bad guys who can hurt him go for no reason.

Safron - There is no reason to assume the Feds found her on the second time. A woman who was able to force a ship to stay on a course which would rip it to pieces where the pilot and mechanic couldn't undo it? I'm pretty sure she can get herself out of the garbage bin. May take a little bit, but she'll be out. (But you also forge ECGORDON, he found her at the end of "Our Miss Reynalds", and just punched her and let her go. He kills Tracy who didn't even try to kill any in his crew, and he lets Safron go who tried to kill all of them.) - Your not gonna tell me Tracy was shooting at Wash, since Tracy was a trained soldier who had wash at point blank Range. He was shooting at the terminal that Wash was going for, but wasn't shooting to kill.

Niska - They had the station under there control at that point. They didn't grab him? Blow the station? They'd done that before with the station that was going to rip their ship to pieces

Burgess - My point is more that he let him live. He shot Tracy twice, but all he did was punch this guy a few times?

Operative - Better man? Right... the same guy that shot the operative in the chest the first time he met him... who shot an unarmed and surrendering soldier... and the same guy who wouldn't get rid of some cash to save a mans life... right... better man then I give him credit for by far.

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Wednesday, July 04, 2012 10:37 AM

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Patience - Mal shot first.

To be accurate, Patience shot first. He just expected her to try to shoot him again. And was right.

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Mal and Zoey were surrounded and outgunned.

And, them going to give the medicine back in the first place and then GETTING surrounded counts for nothing?

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The Alliance was giving them the medicine.

MAL Stolen? Well, didn't I see a whole regiment of fine young Alliance Federals on the train?

SHERIFF You did. Same regiment let our medicine get swiped right under their noses, then took off for their own camp without so much as a whoopsy daisy.

MAL That sounds like the Alliance. Unite all the planets under one rule so that everybody can be interfered with or ignored equally.

You'll notice even the Sheriff doesn't seem fond of the Alliance despite the medicine. Might be because when the medicine got stolen, the Alliance didn't really care at all and wouldn't even elect any of their Federal marshals - who were already THERE - help find the medicine.

Benevolent and caring they really aren't. The Alliance is bureaucratic and apathetic at best - they probably only HAVE the medicine shipments because the mining corporations on the world twisted someone's arm in the core, thought that their miners dying horrible pain wracking deaths might not be good for business or PR.

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All he did was call Tracy stupid, and at no point tried to tell him about the plan. = Mal wants to kill Tracy

So... If I called you stupid, for doing something that made you end up dead, that would be pre-meditated murder?

You're not being rational about this.

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They had the station under there control at that point. They didn't grab him? Blow the station? They'd done that before with the station that was going to rip their ship to pieces

They had one spoke of a circular rotating hub under control, and the direct line back to Serenity under control. If they'd killed all the guards and could search for Niska, why didn't they also loot all the nice sellable stuff on the station? Because they didn't kill all the guards and had to skedaddle. They didn't go after Niska because they'd just have been running into more guards.

You have a point about not venting the station once they were away but, I guess Joss wanted to continue to use Niska. There doesn't seem to be any reason in the story why they failed at this beyond a momentary lapse of competence. But then again, even the most seasoned soldiers make mistakes and aren't as thorough as they could be and it bites them in the ass sometimes.

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My point is more that he let him live. He shot Tracy twice, but all he did was punch this guy a few times?

You ever been pistol whipped? it's not a pleasant experience. Mal wasn't really sparing Burgess anything.

Also, Mal only shot Tracey once. Zoe shot him the other time for shooting WASH. Mal shot him for threatening to shoot KAYLEE.

So in the very least if you're going to continue arguing this, you have to say both Mal and Zoe hated Tracey and then murdered him. And that is still contradicted by their actions - going out of their way to bring his body to his relatives.

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who shot an unarmed and surrendering soldier..

Who had just bombed a village of civilians. Hey, I know, maybe that helicopter at My Lai shouldn't have stepped in and let them continue the whole war atrocity thing.

I guess they could have accepted the surrendering soldier and turned him over to law enforcement for justice. I mean, the fact that same law enforcement AND that soldier wants to kill them is only a minor set back.

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the same guy who wouldn't get rid of some cash to save a mans life..

Do you mean the guy at the bank robbery? The kid in the bank who was about to start shooting wildly at them before Zoe stopped him, and who when the Reavers showed up ran up demanding a ride instead of doing the smart thing and hiding out in the vault like everyone else in the bank did who survived - at Mal's suggestion no less? That guy?

I can see how not getting paid and not buying food for your people and having crime lords like Fanty and Mingo sending thugs after you in order to save a darwin award in progress is a noble thing, yeah. Mal didn't make that fatal choice for the kid. Mal wasn't in any way responsible for the kid. The kid was a goner when he ran out into the streets in the middle of a Reaver attack whether Mal had been there with the mule or not. The kid's lack of common sense is ultimately what killed him (somewhat similar to Tracey, who wouldn't have been in that situation in the first place if he had thought through the potential complications of smuggling organs more carefully).

Your better argument from the movie is the way Mal baited the Reavers into attacking the fleet. Thousands of people would have died there, in some very horrible ways, like being eaten or flayed or raped to death - but then again, what exactly were all those thousand people going to do to Mal and his people? Hug them lots? They were there to cover-up what happened to Miranda where 30 million people died, and were willing to kill a few more settlements of a hundred or so people and a crew of eight. At some point self defense comes into play here.

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And as for Mal being a Villain, thats exactly what he is. He lets the really bad guys who can hurt him go for no reason.

That doesn't make someone a villain, it makes them the victim of storytelling and plot. A villain is someone who antagonizes. If Mal's a villain, who's your protagonist? You saying he's a villain for, what, antagonizing himself? Doesn't work that way.

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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 2:37 PM

RIVER_TAM

I am sorry if someone has already mentioned this but I am to tired to read all the comments, This is a responce to the first comment,

Zoë liked Tracey, so she would have told Tracey even if Mal didn't want her to.

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Wednesday, January 09, 2013 4:32 PM

RESETLOCKSLEY

Also, I can kill you with my brain.

I realize this is an old thread, but I'd like to comment on it.

As for Mal's motivations for killing Tracey, MORSE, I think you're overanalyzing. Tracey was holding a gun on Kaylee. And if your name is Malcolm Reynolds and someone threatens sweet little Kaylee, you shoot 'em dead.

And letting someone live does not equate to being a villain. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

My days of not takin' you seriously are certainly coming to a middle.

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Thursday, May 09, 2013 6:19 AM

WR_ORION

Watched this one last night for the first time.

I may be off here, but while I was watching, I assumed that Tracey was "already dead" after the first shot he took from Zoe, and was only still alive because of the super organs in his body that he was smuggling. It looked like a shot to the heart to me, so I assumed he was just running on super organ adrenaline or whatever until his soon-to-be death. I thought that the second shot from Mal was just to end early the inevitable death of Tracey and surely prevent Kaylee from getting hurt.

I also thought there was a comment from Mal, although I can't remember if it came before or after the second shot, that was something like "You already killed yourself"

I also felt that this was somewhat of a mercy killing because of either one or two reasons.

I got the impression that Tracey was miserable with his current life and knew that it was basically over. As if to say that he had gone down a path that he would not be able to come back from, and regretted it deeply. In fact deeply enough to....

Hijack the organs in his body and sell them for 3x the amount of money to get his family out of debt, EVEN THOUGH...

From my perspective, this was his death sentence. Because the original clients were supposed to replace the super organs with his own original organs when he delivered the goods. So since he double crossed them to sell them for 3x the money, I assumed because if I didn't miss something, he never said that the new clients just happened to have a full body's worth of human organs to put in him after he delivered the goods.

So when Zoe shot him the first time after he shot at the panel Wash was reaching for, that in itself sealed his fate. His cargo was ruined and there were no replacement organs anyway, so the whole thing was a bust.

I thought that his reaction in taking Kaylee hostage and trying to run was just him trying to escape his own inevitable death that he was not willing to accept.

Can't wait to watch this again though to verify or dismiss any of this opinion.

Thoughts?

"Go then, there are other worlds than these."

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Thursday, May 09, 2013 8:09 AM

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I also thought there was a comment from Mal, although I can't remember if it came before or after the second shot, that was something like "You already killed yourself"

It was after Zoe shot Tracy, but it was in the context of Mal telling Tracy that they'd already called Womack. Who was apparently the organ smuggler he double crossed to sell to a higher bidder, or at least in the employ of whoever that was.

I like interpreting this as Tracy deciding to die to earn his family enough money to get off St. Albans, but honestly I don't see any indication that Tracy REALIZED that he wasn't going to get his organs back if he sold the wetware to someone else. He acts pretty upset about Mal and crew turning him over to Womack, who is going to do unpleasant things to him and then kill him. I wouldn't think he'd be concerned about Womack killing him if he knew going to the other sellers would also kill him.

I think Tracy is a tragic kid who didn't think any of this through, which is pretty consistent with his character and what he says his life's been like since the war.

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Thursday, May 09, 2013 9:20 AM

WR_ORION

Sounds good to me :-)

"Go then, there are other worlds than these."

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Thursday, May 09, 2013 12:31 PM

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Mal's comment was, "You murdered yourself, son. I just carried the bullet a while." That referred back to the flashback war scene when he had told him, "Everybody dies, Tracey. Someone's carrying a bullet for you right now, doesn't even know it. The trick is to die of old age before it finds you."

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Thursday, May 09, 2013 1:17 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

I think Tracy is a tragic kid who didn't think any of this through, which is pretty consistent with his character and what he says his life's been like since the war.

NOt sure who wrote this epp, Joss? Tim?, but I think they were reaching for a slightly modernized version of classic tragedy.

E-T-A: Just looked it up on Wikipedia. Writing is credited to Cheryl Cane. Don't know of her, never heard of her or her name associated with the show. No disparagement of her intended...

EDITED SOME MORE- looked her up on imdb. She's listed as story editor for all 13 episodes, and a writer credit for War Stories.

I think of this episode as the closest thing to classical tragedy I've ever seen on a TV series. Tracy is brought down by his own tragic flaws: over-confidence and not thinking the entire situation through-- how was he going to get some organs back to live on if he sold the ones he was carrying to an unplanned customer? And his death is about moving us to think about fate, and to evoke an emotional response from the audience. The only thing missing from the classic Aristotlean definition is that he doesn't start from a high position or rank.

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Thursday, May 09, 2013 4:11 PM

EBFIDDLER

WR_ORION, I like your thoughts on this episode, which I'll have to admit is not one of my personal favorites. Particularly your notion that Zoe's shot was the fatal injury and Mal's shot was the mercy blow. Also, your idea that Tracey may have known that he was going to die by selling the wetware to another bidder, rather than the contracted one, but was willing to make the sacrifice for the sake of his family -- this makes him seem much more noble. I had always assumed he was a screw-up who didn't think it through, because the episode never explained how his own organs were supposed to meet up with him again, even had he completed the delivery as contracted. But I also figured that the writer of this episode didn't think that part through either, which was why it was skirted over and left unexplained.

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Thursday, May 09, 2013 4:11 PM

EBFIDDLER

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Thursday, May 09, 2013 4:11 PM

EBFIDDLER

[Edit] Double post, sorry

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Friday, May 10, 2013 4:44 AM

WR_ORION

Thanks EB, glad I made an impression with my newbie views.

It was just what was running through my mind while watching. I have no idea how I'll feel about it after seeing it again.

I think this does play into his character though. Stopping and eating a can of beans in the middle of a firefight (I know they have to eat sometime, but I bet there would have been a better time to do it later), shows Tracey running off of emotion rather than thinking things through. Just like getting sweet on Kaylee then taking her hostage. Pulling a gun oh his "friends" rather than talking things out. Along with presumably a host of other bad decisions that led him to this point.

Oh and thanks to EC for the "you murdered yourself...I just carried the bullet for awhile" clarification. Now I remember!

FYI, I posted in this topic because it directly related to the episode I'd just watched, but I personally don't think that Mal "murdered" Tracy as the title and original poster implies. If anything, I feel like he might have been putting down a rabid dog, but one that he still cared about and had a connection with. Even if you have to shoot your own dog, that you once loved, a decent person doesn't just toss the body in the garbage. Can't remember now for sure, I "think" it was this episode, where Book says something along the lines of "How we treat our dead is what separates us from them..." This statement though I think foreshadows the end of the episode at the funeral with Tracey's family, proving that Mal is not just a murdering bastard, IMO.

"Go then, there are other worlds than these."

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Friday, May 10, 2013 2:17 PM