FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Map of the Verse discussion

POSTED BY: JEWELSTAITEFAN
UPDATED: Tuesday, June 4, 2019 20:51
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Wednesday, June 18, 2014 7:56 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
The claim of Serenity's top speed of 7% of Speed of Light (or 0.50Au/hr) is incompatible with canon of episode Safe.

In Safe, to get from Jaingyin to Greenleaf at top speed while Book bleeds to death, will take 10 hours.
Travel distance between these 2 planets, assuming not passing through the center of the Red Sun, is between 6.375Au and 7.312Au.
IF Serenity had instantaneous acceleration to top speed of 0.50Au/hr, then everybody here can clearly see that in 10 hours Serenity would cover 5.0 Au, which falls far short of 6.37Au - that would take at least 12.76 hours.
This claim is preposterous. Sorry.


Even if max velocity of Serenity was 10% of Speed of Light (0.72Au/hr), she would need near instantaneous acceleration to travel 6.375Au in 10 hours.
Unlikely.



Mal might be estimating about 10 hours. He could be rounding 12.76 hours down to 10. Only River would really be so exact as to call it 12.76 hours.

I don't really have anything we could use to quick-patch the Beaumonde thing though. Moving it to the other side of it's orbit is a start, but 10 hours is a pretty set in stone number. And at these speeds relativity isn't really going to shave off much time.


Maybe the 10 hours Mal says to Beaumonde is really kinda a cruel comment/threat to Simon about kicking Simon off the ship before they get there? Sort of like in the pilot episode when he makes a similar threat that Simon "will be getting off a mite sooner" if he doesn't save Kaylee.

Or, he could just be underestimating the travel time by about half. Maybe if they had to make any stops on their way to Lilac after their meeting with Fanty and Mingo that set up the bank heist he doesn't know off hand the amount of time it'll take.


You are making some logical rationalizations. However, I don't think it really holds up well.
Do you know how much time it takes to get to work? To the next largest city? The next largest city after that? Would you mistake it by half or double? Even if you didn't travel it in the past week, would that change your estimate? I'm not talking about the exact number of minutes, but if you need 5 hours to get across your state or another, would you say 4? That would be the same margin as 12.5 to 10.
Now think about a professional hauling company, pilot, driver. A regular traveler, habitual logistic conjurer, a trucker, air carrier. Can you imagine them not knowing how long it would take? They would be bankrupt in no time if they didn't know. I think Mal is too smart for that.
But that is just the way I see the issue at this point. Your arguments are not completely without validity.

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Wednesday, June 18, 2014 9:29 PM

BYTEMITE


Yeah, that's the biggest potential logical pitfall of the interpretation.

Mal IS normally bankrupt, but as far as I can tell, not because he's bad at giving people correct arrival and departure times. Plus Inara would find it even more annoying if he was more than half a day late getting her anywhere.

But at the same time, if Mal's in an argument, has a lot on his mind, hasn't just done that same trip, and/or might be distracted and thinking of another route, I could see that maybe his first off hand estimate of how long a trip might take might be wrong.

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 8:37 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Yeah, that's the biggest potential logical pitfall of the interpretation.

Mal IS normally bankrupt, but as far as I can tell, not because he's bad at giving people correct arrival and departure times. Plus Inara would find it even more annoying if he was more than half a day late getting her anywhere.

But at the same time, if Mal's in an argument, has a lot on his mind, hasn't just done that same trip, and/or might be distracted and thinking of another route, I could see that maybe his first off hand estimate of how long a trip might take might be wrong.


Plus, for Safe Mal wasn't alone when saying 10 hours. Zoe has not been quoting times in our canon, but I think she would know the difference. And at least have some snarky retort.

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Tuesday, June 24, 2014 7:27 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Also, in our Mrs. Reynolds, they are taking a week to get from Triumph (Red Sun) to Beaumonde. If this is in Kalidasa, then Kalidasa is not on the same side of the Core as Red Sun.

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Thursday, July 3, 2014 7:26 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by ElectricLion:
And I need to remind you that for all the focus on Beaumonde, the only way to make Beaumonde-to-Lilac work is to break something else.

AND... Beaumonde is too populous to work as a rim world. The entire population of the Blue Sun system is only 15 million after the loss of Miranda.


Have you found locations for the following:

Ita Moon?

Kowlonshi?

Kowlon Fed Base?


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Sunday, November 23, 2014 12:57 PM

YELLOWJACKET


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Have you found locations for the following:

Ita Moon?

Kowlonshi?

Kowlon Fed Base?




Ita Moon is a satellite of Whittier in the Kalidasa System and is already featured in the Verse in Numbers and the ARC of the Verse.

Ita
S/2176(Whittier)01
Orbit: 968,688 km
Period: 68.80 days
Diameter: 900 km
Mass: 2.744x1019 tonnes
Surface Gravity: 0.9204 gn
Terraformed (year): Ongoing
Population: ~8,000+ (Terraform Crew + Depot Crew + other)

Notation from the Verse in Numbers:
Note: Ita is the smallest body in the Verse to undergo
terraforming. As a result, the terraforming efforts have
not been successful. Ita has become a test bed for
experimental terraforming techniques. In 2470, Ita
was chosen as a location for a secondary Alliance
orbital dry-dock facility. However budget restructuring
has left the Ita facility as little more than a holding
facility and scrap yard. “Towed to Ita” has become a
euphemism for permanent impound. While there is a
small used spaceship business at Ita, most ships leave
Ita in pieces. The scrap yards at Ita’s L4 and L5
positions are havens for small-time salvagers, both
legitimate and otherwise.

Kowlonshi is problematic, because I don't believe that it's been established whether or not Kowlonshi is a colony, city, moon or planet. The same goes for Kowlon Fed Base. I'd welcome anymore discussion about Kowlonshi and Kowlon Base.

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Monday, November 24, 2014 7:49 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by YELLOWJACKET:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Have you found locations for the following:

Ita Moon?

Kowlonshi?

Kowlon Fed Base?




Ita Moon is a satellite of Whittier in the Kalidasa System and is already featured in the Verse in Numbers and the ARC of the Verse.

Ita
S/2176(Whittier)01
Orbit: 968,688 km
Period: 68.80 days
Diameter: 900 km
Mass: 2.744x1019 tonnes
Surface Gravity: 0.9204 gn
Terraformed (year): Ongoing
Population: ~8,000+ (Terraform Crew + Depot Crew + other)

Notation from the Verse in Numbers:
Note: Ita is the smallest body in the Verse to undergo
terraforming. As a result, the terraforming efforts have
not been successful. Ita has become a test bed for
experimental terraforming techniques. In 2470, Ita
was chosen as a location for a secondary Alliance
orbital dry-dock facility. However budget restructuring
has left the Ita facility as little more than a holding
facility and scrap yard. “Towed to Ita” has become a
euphemism for permanent impound. While there is a
small used spaceship business at Ita, most ships leave
Ita in pieces. The scrap yards at Ita’s L4 and L5
positions are havens for small-time salvagers, both
legitimate and otherwise.

Kowlonshi is problematic, because I don't believe that it's been established whether or not Kowlonshi is a colony, city, moon or planet. The same goes for Kowlon Fed Base. I'd welcome anymore discussion about Kowlonshi and Kowlon Base.


Thanks.
IIRC, Kowlonshi was listed as Kaylee's birthplace in the DVD extras on the Serenity Collector's Edition DVD. Other similar references were Shadow for Mal, and in space for Zoe. This implies Planet of birth.
If Kowlonshi was a planet, I have considered that Kowlon may have been a slang or abbreviated form of that, or the Fed Base was named for the same.
I had just figured that these seemed to be the final locations actually named in script or data, and would be top targets for conciliation in the data.

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Monday, November 24, 2014 9:35 PM

YELLOWJACKET


Quote:


Thanks.
IIRC, Kowlonshi was listed as Kaylee's birthplace in the DVD extras on the Serenity Collector's Edition DVD. Other similar references were Shadow for Mal, and in space for Zoe. This implies Planet of birth.
If Kowlonshi was a planet, I have considered that Kowlon may have been a slang or abbreviated form of that, or the Fed Base was named for the same.
I had just figured that these seemed to be the final locations actually named in script or data, and would be top targets for conciliation in the data.



The argument for Kowlonshi being set as a world seems reasonable, which makes me wonder why the braintrust at QMx never featured it in the 'Complete and Official Map of the Verse'. Is Kowlonshi mentioned in the recent Firefly RPG release or any material outside the DVD?

All we have about the 'rock' that Mal talks about is this.

MAL
You do realize we been parked on this
rock near a week longer'n we planned?

BESTER
Yeah, but... there's stuff to do.

MAL
As for example that job we got waitin'
for us on Paquin. When we landed here you
said you just needed a few days before we were
space worthy again and is there somethin' wrong
with your bunk?

So when they landed, they knew they'd need repairs that would take a few days, but it's almost a week past when they thought they'd leave, so a week plus a few days have passed. Unfortunately, there's no indication of how close they are in relation to Paquin, apart from the work waiting for them there. Even if the work is waiting, we don't know how long it's been waiting, or if a deadline has come and gone in relation to that work.

That's why I'm wondering if Kowlonshi has been fleshed out by any other new materials, such as the latest RPG release.

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Wednesday, November 26, 2014 12:26 PM

YELLOWJACKET


I spoke with the creative forces at Margaret Weis Productions and the name Kowlonshi doesn't appear in an materials they have access to under their license for Firefly. Evidently, it's only on the Serenity extras, which begs the question, did Universal make it up, or did Joss lend that tidbit to them while working on the film?

I'm going to chase some more leads.

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Wednesday, November 26, 2014 6:05 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by yellowjacket:
I spoke with the creative forces at Margaret Weis Productions and the name Kowlonshi doesn't appear in an materials they have access to under their license for Firefly. Evidently, it's only on the Serenity extras, which begs the question, did Universal make it up, or did Joss lend that tidbit to them while working on the film?

I'm going to chase some more leads.


Perhaps they derived it from the script mention of Kowlon Fed Base in the Pilot, which I think never got to the screen. Just a possibility I had considered.

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Friday, November 28, 2014 4:38 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


bump over spambot.

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Thursday, July 14, 2016 6:28 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Regarding the Hands of Blue at the end of episode The Train Job:

They state they traveled 86 million miles to get to Ezra, but they imply it is a great distance.

This is less than an Au, about 0.934 Au. This distance from Ezra includes only Regina and it's moon Alexandria, so the Hands of Blue must have come from one of them. It would have taken Serenity under 4 hours to travel this distance at maximum acceleration & deceleration, and Alliance Operative craft might be quicker than a mid-size cargo transport vessel.

The next nearest orbiting would be Boros, which cannot come closer than 1.125Au to Ezra in their orbits, so they did not come from there - unless they were in mid-course to elsewhere and then diverted to Ezra. Boros would make sense because Dobson would have mentioned this as the itinerary in his signal during Pilot Serenity. Our BDH may have never gone to Boros (Book was more interested in the trip than the destination, the Tams may not be interested in going someplace Dobson keyed their pursuers into), thus Hands of Blue never intercepted them there.

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Monday, November 13, 2017 11:33 PM

YELLOWJACKET


There is a 'Kowloon City' in the Firefly Online Game on Jiangyin's moon 'Tongyi'. Closest thing to Kowlon or Kowlonshi that I've found so far.

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Tuesday, November 14, 2017 1:22 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by yellowjacket:
I spoke with the creative forces at Margaret Weis Productions and the name Kowlonshi doesn't appear in an materials they have access to under their license for Firefly. Evidently, it's only on the Serenity extras, which begs the question, did Universal make it up, or did Joss lend that tidbit to them while working on the film?

I'm going to chase some more leads.


Perhaps they derived it from the script mention of Kowlon Fed Base in the Pilot, which I think never got to the screen. Just a possibility I had considered.

I was thinking I just heard it mentioned in Safe. Where Badger wanted them to drop off the loot from the cattle smuggling. Right after Mendenhall released them with fixed up Book.

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Thursday, November 16, 2017 9:12 PM

YELLOWJACKET


Well…we had a little 'development'.

I asked Tim if he'd consider choosing a home planet for Kaylee, since Kowlonshi was never added to the Official Map of the Verse as a world, and no mention of it appears anywhere else but the bluray.

This lead to a discussion about the Red Sun System, since Mal mentions that they have work waiting for them on Paquin, a planet around the Heinlein protostar.

Long story short…Tim said this…

"You haven't detected Kaylee's Farradian accent? Seems so pronounced to me."

Now, this might be Tim being purposely vague, since FOX owns the rights and he may have no room to add canon where none exists. Setting that aside, let's discuss.

There is a Farraday in the Red Sun System. It's a moon of Harvest, along with Higgin's Moon. If this is where Kowlonshi is, then Kaylee grew up relatively near to Canton (or Jaynestown), but as it's implied that Jayne became a crew member after Kaylee, so the discussion of Canton likely never came up before the episode about Mudder's and Jayne's part in all of that.

It also improves the mythos, because it limits the whole 'Hero of Canton' to a narrow perspective and to the narrative of that episode and moon. Jayne never mentioned it before and no one knew about it.

Farraday is also an interesting choice, because it has a very small population and it's referred to as a 'prairie' world, so Mal's 'prairie harpy' comment ties well to Farraday. This would also mean that Kowlonshi is a place on a world and not a world itself. In short, it's a small, backwater 'rock' with prairie and a small population.

Thoughts?

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Friday, November 17, 2017 2:49 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by YELLOWJACKET:
Well…we had a little 'development'.

I asked Tim if he'd consider choosing a home planet for Kaylee, since Kowlonshi was never added to the Official Map of the Verse as a world, and no mention of it appears anywhere else but the bluray.

This lead to a discussion about the Red Sun System, since Mal mentions that they have work waiting for them on Paquin, a planet around the Heinlein protostar.

Long story short…Tim said this…

"You haven't detected Kaylee's Farradian accent? Seems so pronounced to me."

Now, this might be Tim being purposely vague, since FOX owns the rights and he may have no room to add canon where none exists. Setting that aside, let's discuss.

There is a Farraday in the Red Sun System. It's a moon of Harvest, along with Higgin's Moon. If this is where Kowlonshi is, then Kaylee grew up relatively near to Canton (or Jaynestown), but as it's implied that Jayne became a crew member after Kaylee, so the discussion of Canton likely never came up before the episode about Mudder's and Jayne's part in all of that.

It also improves the mythos, because it limits the whole 'Hero of Canton' to a narrow perspective and to the narrative of that episode and moon. Jayne never mentioned it before and no one knew about it.

Farraday is also an interesting choice, because it has a very small population and it's referred to as a 'prairie' world, so Mal's 'prairie harpy' comment ties well to Farraday. This would also mean that Kowlonshi is a place on a world and not a world itself. In short, it's a small, backwater 'rock' with prairie and a small population.

Thoughts?

Well, I have never visited Luna, so it's just like it's own world there.
Jayne himself didn't know Canton was anything other than a place he screwed up at, or all of Higgins Moon forvthat matter.
If Mal bought Serenity about 5 years before OoG, then Kaylee was likely aboard before 2 - 3 years ago, when Jayne looted Higgins. I forget how long before Jaynestown that was. So, Kaylee would not have heard of Jayne or the incident.

I feel like we should announce somehow this info about Kaylee's home. But I don't want to get Tim in trouble.

Do you think Kowlon Fed Base would also be on Farraday? The whole rest of Safe took place in Red Sun System.

Now I'm thinking it a little weird that when departing Jaynestown, or heading for Kowlon Fed Base, no mention was made of Kaylee visiting her home.
Mal cannot visit his home on Shadow. Zoe was born in space. Wash seems unnostalgic about his home. Kaylee seems the most likely to want to visit her home.

I forget if Kaylee said she'd never been on any spaceship, or just not a Firefly. In OoG. It's not unusual to know how to fix craft but never travelled in it. I've repaired F/A-18s, F-4s, A-4s, A-6s, but never ridden in one. Probably have flown in B737, B747, B727, DC-10, DC-9, MD-80, L-1011, A300, A320, but not sure of all.

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Friday, November 17, 2017 3:11 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


I must remember to update my posts about Ita Moon and Kowlonshi on Farraday.

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Friday, November 17, 2017 7:33 PM

YELLOWJACKET


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

I feel like we should announce somehow this info about Kaylee's home. But I don't want to get Tim in trouble.



I'm releasing it slowly about as more of a hint than canon.

Quote:

Do you think Kowlon Fed Base would also be on Farraday? The whole rest of Safe took place in Red Sun System.


I think it's very likely.

Quote:

Now I'm thinking it a little weird that when departing Jaynestown, or heading for Kowlon Fed Base, no mention was made of Kaylee visiting her home.


That doesn't bother me, because there's time in between all the episodes where 'life' takes place, even though it isn't directly mentioned in the narrative.

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Monday, November 20, 2017 12:08 AM

YELLOWJACKET


I've shared it about on Facebook, especially on the Verse in Numbers page, and it's been well received. I love filling in missing pieces of the Verse.

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Tuesday, June 4, 2019 8:51 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Thinking about anther thread, I now wonder if Shadow was so named because at the time of Terraforming, the world was in the shadow of another body, or protostar. Now that we know how slow bodies move in The Verse, I shoudl revisit this possibility.

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