FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

The Destruction of Shadow

POSTED BY: NCBROWNCOAT
UPDATED: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 13:58
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Wednesday, February 6, 2008 6:39 PM

NCBROWNCOAT


Ok, I'm just speculating here but the time line for the destruction of Shadow, Mal's home planet is not apparent.

I'm just guessing when I say that I think the destruction occurs during the battle of Serenity Valley.

When we see Mal in the beginning of the pilot episode he still has all his belief intact and is inspirational to his troops and still fairly confident in the Independent cause. If his knew his home planet had been destroyed I don't think he would still be that cocky and more likely would be more vengeful toward the Alliance at that point. All of that has changed by the end of that scene (the outtake, where Mal is very disillusioned).

My theory is that the destruction of Shadow occurred late in the war, most likely right after the Battle of Serenity Valley. The Alliance, faced with a group of Independents that wouldn't lay down arms when their High Command told them to, thought they could force a surrender of the holdouts by doing the worst, most horrible thing in the world. Destroying a whole world just to show their might.

Just imagine the psychological damage to those resisting if the Alliance destroyed Shadow and them let the surviving Independents on Hera know it. Imagine the survivors not only starving and surrounded by the dead and dying but all of a sudden they find out that the Alliance has shown no pity to non combatants and have destroyed a whole planet.

Of course there is no way we'll ever know for sure unless Joss someday lets us in on ALL the Firefly/Serenity secrets in his brain.

What do you think?









http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/










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Wednesday, February 6, 2008 7:03 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Do we really know that Shadow was destroyed? Perhaps the ranch where Mal and his mother lived and worked was destroyed, but the whole planet?




wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Wednesday, February 6, 2008 7:22 PM

NBZ


Its in the notes in the (Serenity?) Visual companion - where Joss laid out his vision of everything.

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Wednesday, February 6, 2008 7:40 PM

NCBROWNCOAT


But he didn't tell us when it occurred. That's bothering me. For some reason (fic maybe?) I need to know when it happened.

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Wednesday, February 6, 2008 8:13 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


In the Vis Comp, but it's not with me now.

Mal volunteered as a result of the bombing of Shadow.
It was a pre-emptive move on the part of the Alliance. They didn't want it to be available to the Independents. Alliance assumed the response would be nil, not inciting rabid volunteerism.

As I understand, Shadow was made uninhabitable early in the war, very early.

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Thursday, February 7, 2008 4:18 AM

NBZ


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
In the Vis Comp, but it's not with me now.



True
Quote:

Mal volunteered as a result of the bombing of Shadow.
It was a pre-emptive move on the part of the Alliance. They didn't want it to be available to the Independents. Alliance assumed the response would be nil, not inciting rabid volunteerism.

As I understand, Shadow was made uninhabitable early in the war, very early.



Hearsay.

It may be true, but it is not written anywhere by Joss and co. the closest he got to any specifics was "...five years gone he found his homeworld destroyed, his army beaten...". (Just need a "My Name is Maximus Decimus Meridius..." moment there)

If you look at the still hopeful Mal at the start of the pilot - he is still someone who believes they can erm... well if not win, then atleast hold. It may be just bluster to try to motivate the troops, or he may actually believe it himself.

If he does believe (which is more likely as that would make the stand down order all the more devastating), I would say Shadow is still there at that point. Or, he does not know yet.

There is every chance the high command gave the stand down order after hearing of Shadow's destruction - the price was suddenly too high. A bit like Japan after they got nuked in WW2.

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Thursday, February 7, 2008 4:27 AM

CHRISISALL


Is it wrong that the title of this thread made me think it was about the old series UFO?

Strakerisall

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Thursday, February 7, 2008 4:53 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by nbz:

There is every chance the high command gave the stand down order after hearing of Shadow's destruction - the price was suddenly too high. A bit like Japan after they got nuked in WW2.




I'd say in a verse that spends decades trying to make lifeless worlds inhabitable in the first place - a humanity that has experienced the loss of living space when they used up the Earth - it is not very likely that they would make an entire planet uninhabitable for the purpose you claim.

It makes more sense to me that the destruction of Shadow was the driving force behind Mal's almost feverish need to win. I do not think that he was still 100% in those first scenes. He's determined, fearless, yes. But that doesn't translate to healthy and hopeful. He's already a mess there, just too busy and too much in the "right" environment to appear so.

When the leadership of the Independents surrendered, they may well have done so for sound reasons: to prevent more bloodshed that would inevitably still end in defeat. Mal's bitterness may easily stem from the fact that they took away the only thing that still made sense to him: fight. Not for anything in particular but in order not to lose to the monsters that destroyed his home.

I don't think there is a need to make the Alliance any more monstrous than some of its members already are. Or to attribute Mal's hollow anger post-Valley to things other than the obvious.

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Thursday, February 7, 2008 5:12 AM

NBZ


You misinterpret that bit (or I wrote it badly...)

I am not comparing the destruction of Shadow with the nuking of Hiroshima, Nagasaki.

I am not claiming a purpose for the actions. Just saying that it happened. Which according to Joss' notes did. Is that canon? depends on who you're asking but I do take it as that. The why and the how are not as important as the what in this discussion. No need to get stuck on how monstrous the act was.

I am comparing the responses to what happened.

/I am taking a fictional world far too seriously

PS they did not use up the earth - it could no longer support the numbers. Big distinction.

PPS What about Mal in DU Khang (The Message)? Still reeling from an earlier loss of a homeworld? Possible, but not how I see things.

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Thursday, February 7, 2008 5:32 AM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:

Is it wrong that the title of this thread made me think it was about the old series UFO?


Is it wrong that the title of this thread made me think of the Shadow War? :)


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Thursday, February 7, 2008 5:37 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by nbz:


PS they did not use up the earth - it could no longer support the numbers. Big distinction.



That's one version. Both Mal and Book use the phrase "used up" in their intros to various episodes ("Here's how it is: the earth got used up..." and "After the Earth was used up, we found a new solar system...") so it stands to be argued how reliable the decidedly propaganda-ish dream-teacher in the movie intro really is as a source.

Neither side portray it as the journey of a few surplus humans, but both as a kind of exodus. Which makes the distinction pointless anyway. They know the importance of living space and I think there is a big cultural difference between 1945 U.S. mentality toward such complete destruction and 2515's Alliance's. (Or whenever, I'm fuzzy of verse years.)

Just saying that they'd probably need to see a good pay-off for making an entire world uninhabitable and the Alliance seems like they'd sacrifice people more easily than precious resources. Look how they go after River.

Quote:


PPS What about Mal in DU Khang (The Message)? Still reeling from an earlier loss of a homeworld? Possible, but not how I see things.



I don't see too big a difference between those two Mal's (Du Khan and Serenity Valley) but I also don't think we would have seen a Mal obviously "reeling" very much, after the initial shock and fury and grief.
Once's he'd have made the decision to fight, to use his anger and desperation, I think he would have been remarkably together. In fact, his death-defiant joviality in fighting might be seen as a sign of recklessness brought on by having nothing much to lose anymore.

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Thursday, February 7, 2008 6:02 AM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Mal volunteered as a result of the bombing of Shadow.


With this I agree.

Quote:


It was a pre-emptive move on the part of the Alliance. They didn't want it to be available to the Independents. Alliance assumed the response would be nil, not inciting rabid volunteerism.


With this, not so much. You don't just level an entire planet when you "assumed the response would be nil." Otherwise, what would be the point of doing so? That would be silliness. Besides, speaking of nil, I reckon the strategic importance of Shadow was precisely that: nil. Instead, I adhere to the RPG story:

"Shadow was a prairie planet that took well to terraforming. It was known for its farms and ranches. The planet was almost entirely rural: no cities and only a few towns dotted the surface. The people of Shadow were hard workers and independent-minded. It was one of the first to stand against the Alliance. Most of the planet's young people volunteered to fight for Independence.

Shadow was aggressively bombed during the war in an attempt to break the Browncoats and teach them a lesson; it had the opposite effect."

That's why "No one lives there. No one can."


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Thursday, February 7, 2008 6:08 AM

CHRISK


Quote:

Originally posted by asarian:
Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Mal volunteered as a result of the bombing of Shadow.


With this I agree.



Maybe, but... if Mal wasn't already a volunteer before the bombing, then how did he survive the attack? Were there rescues or time for refugee ships to escape the planet? Was he off-world for some other reason?

I guess I thought that Mal was already in Independent service, fighting on some other world, (not necessarily in Serenity Valley) when his homeworld was destroyed. Your thoughts may vary.

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Thursday, February 7, 2008 6:21 AM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Chrisk:

Quote:

Originally posted by asarian:

Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Mal volunteered as a result of the bombing of Shadow.


With this I agree.


Maybe, but... if Mal wasn't already a volunteer before the bombing, then how did he survive the attack? Were there rescues or time for refugee ships to escape the planet? Was he off-world for some other reason?


Could be that's true (Mal already being a volunteer is actually more in line with the RPG notion of folks on Shadow having been generally Independence minded). I just said "With this I agree." for reasons of brevity: whether Mal was already a volunteer, or only so after they bombed his homeworld, the latter I think is ultimately what would later prompt the Operative (deleted scenes) to say: "This man hates us." I'm fair certain Mal has always been opposed to the Alliance. but I'm thinking it really takes an 'incentive' of the level of destroying one's home planet to make a man become despiseful of you with such a powerful will.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Thursday, February 7, 2008 6:25 AM

MAL4PREZ


I'm with NBZ as far as canon - all we know is that Shadow and the war were both lost in the end. We don't when and how. So it's all opinion, and there's room for lots of those!

Personally, I don't go with the scenario where Shadow was destroyed before Mal joined, or that he knew about it before Serenity Valley. He's just so happy in those war flashbacks, so ready to laugh even in the middle of a firefight. I don't see the weight of a destroyed homeworld on him. In fact, I think he does appear happy and hopeful. He's certain that they'll win - he absolutely believes! That's what's so poignant, that he loses that belief.

As for what motivated him to fight - I don't see a desperate hatred in him, a need for revenge. My take is that he's defending his way of life, trying to preserve Shadow as he knows it, rather than letting it become a world full of Alliance strip malls and suburbs. Yeah, he just seemed to be fighting to preserve, rather than fighting to avenge.

I'll agree with NBZ again that I don't think the Alliance would purposely destroy an entire world. They're not so purely evil, just misguided and careless. My fanfictional take is that Shadow was destroyed shortly before Serenity Valley in an accident, kind of collateral damage of the war, and that news of it was suppressed for a long time. (We all know how a government suppresses bad news in an attempt to keep a war popular. ) The Alliance suppressed Miranda - I think they'd keep news of Shadow quiet till after the war was won, and Mal learned of it then.

Taking this too seriously? What? Us?

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Thursday, February 7, 2008 6:52 AM

NVGHOSTRIDER


Shadow (destruction of) was no accident. It was retalliation by the Allied planets for most of Shadows young people volunteering.

"...RPG Reference (from Serenity Roleplaying Game, ISBN: 1931567506)

Shadow was a prairie planet that took well to terraforming. It was known for its farms and ranches. The planet was almost entirely rural: no cities and only a few towns dotted the surface. The people of Shadow were hard workers and independent-minded. It was one of the first to stand against the Alliance. Most of the planet's young people volunteered to fight for Independence.

Shadow was aggressively bombed during the war in an attempt to break the Browncoats & teach them a lesson; it had the opposite effect.

Today, Shadow is a ghost planet. No one lives there. No one can. "

In turn the Indepenant faction grew by leaps and bounds. There is some other canonical material out there but one can only formulate further. With the character story I was working out there is a ton of material based on the formulations of others. Still, what else are we to do with a fictional universe.

Firefly timeline:
http://www.mts.net/~arphaxad/firefly.html

Unit History: Excerpts, "Sergeants and Seraphim":
http://76thbattalion.proboards59.com/index.cgi?board=unithist&action=d
isplay&thread=1166615225&page=1


76th IB unit history Early Years:
http://76thbattalion.proboards59.com/index.cgi?board=unithist&action=d
isplay&thread=1166615225&page=1


Ultra fun Map of the 'Verse (at Photobucket):






Gots mad skillz, loves playing with matches.

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Thursday, February 7, 2008 7:00 AM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:


Personally, I don't go with the scenario where Shadow was destroyed before Mal joined, or that he knew about it before Serenity Valley. He's just so happy in those war flashbacks, so ready to laugh even in the middle of a firefight. I don't see the weight of a destroyed homeworld on him. In fact, I think he does appear happy and hopeful. He's certain that they'll win - he absolutely believes! That's what's so poignant, that he loses that belief.


Well, that argument can go both ways. I could ask: Why would losing that battle be so utterly devastating to Mal, unless it meant he now had nothing left?

Quote:


As for what motivated him to fight - I don't see a desperate hatred in him, a need for revenge.


I don't see those traits, either. But, in earnest, I think that's just part of Mal's character make-up. In War Stories, when we meet the real 'me', Mal didn't take revenge on Niska, either (nor, in the BDM, on the Operative, for that matter). It's just not his way. I think, as a born 'independent', he primarily doesn't want to be meddled with.

Quote:


Yeah, he just seemed to be fighting to preserve, rather than fighting to avenge.


But preserve what? His homeworld? Or the knowledge that after the loss Serenity Valley all would be lost?

There's certainly signs to support your notion, btw. Mal kissing that crucifix, for instance: that don't exactly look like a man who lost his home.

Quote:


They're not so purely evil, just misguided and careless. My fanfictional take is that Shadow was destroyed shortly before Serenity Valley in an accident, kind of collateral damage of the war.


Well, you lost me here. People leave the toilet seat up by accident. :) Or they add G-23 Paxilon Hydroclorate to the air processors, and find out that, unexpectedly, about a tenth of a percent of he population has an opposite reaction to it. But it's hard to imagine them being so careless as to bomb an entirely planet by mistake. "Oh, SIHNON! I thought you said Shadow! Oops." :)


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Thursday, February 7, 2008 7:03 AM

MAL4PREZ


NVG: When did the RPG become canon? Seriously, not trying to be a smart ass! I mean, even the system map you posted here is not the one in the movie...

-----------------------------------------------
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Thursday, February 7, 2008 7:13 AM

NVGHOSTRIDER


Nah, the system map is pretty off. Where's Titan? And really, isn't there a misaligned axis between the show and the movie anyhow?

Honestly the RPG is a licensed product that adds to the information already available. Choose to use or don't. Besides. I'm sure our BDH's have been put through the ringer enough. It's time for folks to explore the 'Verse as a whole. Not as nine base characters written a million times over. I'll leave the BDH writting to Joss and his cohorts. All I can hope to do is catch a glimpse of them in passing while I travel in a borrowed universe.


Gots mad skillz, loves playing with matches.

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Thursday, February 7, 2008 7:13 AM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:

NVG: When did the RPG become canon?


It never did. :) "I'm with NBZ as far as canon - all we know is that Shadow and the war were both lost in the end. We don't when and how." Couldn't agree more. But only talking about what we strictly know by canon, where did that get fun? I'm speculating that a little speculation never hurt anyone. :)


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Thursday, February 7, 2008 7:17 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by asarian:
Well, that argument can go both ways. I could ask: Why would losing that battle be so utterly devastating to Mal, unless it meant he now had nothing left?

Maybe because it meant that his way of life was over - the ranch would get eaten up by Alliance economic policies and the Alliance government would show up telling him what to do. Also, his faith in the Independent leadership is thrown for a loop - and his morla and religious beliefs. He believes that God is on his side, that he's RIGHT and will therefore win in the end. But to be right and lose anyway? Ouch.

Not saying this is true - it's just my take! Your take can work too. It's just not how I read things.

Quote:

In War Stories, when we meet the real 'me', Mal didn't take revenge on Niska, either (nor, in the BDM, on the Operative, for that matter).
Well, he did try with Niska until he got jumped by the other guy. He didn't go after the Operative, but this is at a point when Mal has rediscovered his beliefs, and he's recovered himself a bit.

Actually, I do agree with you that Mal is not at all a vengeful person. But I just don't see the "homeworld already dead" despair in him in the war flashbacks. I don't! You can see it all you want, but I can't! Sorry. I don't mean to be a brat, really. Just telling my take.

Quote:

But preserve what? His homeworld? Or the knowledge that after the loss Serenity Valley all would be lost?
All *would* be lost, as I said above. Independent way of life, belief in his cause, in his God - gone. That's hard.

Quote:

But it's hard to imagine them being so careless as to bomb an entirely planet by mistake. "Oh, SIHNON! I thought you said Shadow! Oops." :)
The bombing thing is not canon - it's RPG. Which I personally don't take as canon.

OK, here's my take on Shadow. It's from my fanfic because it's easier than writing it out again. Zoe tells Mal this shortly after the war:

"It's gone, Mal. Torched. No one's sayin' whose ships did it, but someone fired the wrong kind of engine where they shouldn't'a. It had to have been something big - bigger than anything we had. The going theory is that an Alliance convoy came under attack, and some idiot at the helm of a freighter went into hard burn in atmo. The whole fleet had to follow to get out of the backburn, and that just made it worse.

"It took out half the continent, and that messed with the system. Somethin' with the terraform - the climate's gone to hell. There were three hands away from your Ma's ranch at the time, and they're the only ones that lived.

"Your land was right under the main fire. It's burnt to nothin'. Gorramn rocks melted. Even if the atmo and climate get back under control, ain't much gonna grow for a long, long time. Not as long as me and you are livin'."


Purely fanfic and nothing but my take on matters, but I think it's plausible. It's sort of similar to what happened to Miranda - carelessness.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Thursday, February 7, 2008 7:31 AM

NVGHOSTRIDER


Well. I offered what I could. Seems a product approved by the creator himself just ain't enough. Seeing how much of a stickler Joss is of his own work I figured folks could accept his acceptance of details he might have never considered.

I do love the idea of Shadow being burned out as opposed to bombed. Not as devastating as telling the 'Verse the Alliance "bombed" the planet but it sure is a good vehicle for support.

Funny how the workings really make sense when someone has another take. Seems my own writtings might take a strange turn from misinformation.


Gots mad skillz, loves playing with matches.

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Thursday, February 7, 2008 7:38 AM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:


Actually, I do agree with you that Mal is not at all a vengeful person. But I just don't see the "homeworld already dead" despair in him in the war flashbacks. I don't! You can see it all you want, but I can't! Sorry. I don't mean to be a brat, really. Just telling my take.


Actually, I'm beginning to agree with you. Try not to faint. :) There's really a certain bitterness lacking from 'flashback' Mal. Also, he lost his faith AFTER Serenity Valley: that's pretty much the entire premisse of Firefly. Him having lost it earlier really causes ugly breakage (or would make him look heartless for NOT having lost his faith if indeed his world had been destroyed before).

You're also right about the bombing (to the degree of leveling Shadow) not being canon. I guess that idea just erroneously cropped in as canon, somehow.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Thursday, February 7, 2008 7:47 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by nvghostrider:
Funny how the workings really make sense when someone has another take. Seems my own writtings might take a strange turn from misinformation.

As much as I hate to admit it... if we ever did get a series continuation, I would be ecstatic but also have many moments of discomfort, I'm sure! I'm very buried in my own take on the `verse, which is based on my personal leanings. I know I create plenty of my own misinformation LOL! So don't even worry about that.

Yeah, and ignoring the RPG is as much for my own convenience as anything else. (Although I asked about it early on and other writers said that it was quite optional. I don't think Joss went through and checked off each little detail. Maybe it's just convenient for me to think that... ) Actually, I generally ignore the movie too. It just makes it easier if I have the freedom to create my own fic-take on many things.

I'd reply to Asarian but I'm fainted dead away LOL!

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Thursday, February 7, 2008 9:28 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by asarian:
Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Mal volunteered as a result of the bombing of Shadow.


With this I agree.

Quote:


It was a pre-emptive move on the part of the Alliance. They didn't want it to be available to the Independents. Alliance assumed the response would be nil, not inciting rabid volunteerism.


With this, not so much. You don't just level an entire planet when you "assumed the response would be nil." Otherwise, what would be the point of doing so? That would be silliness. Besides, speaking of nil, I reckon the strategic importance of Shadow was precisely that: nil. Instead, I adhere to the RPG story:

"Shadow was a prairie planet that took well to terraforming. It was known for its farms and ranches. The planet was almost entirely rural: no cities and only a few towns dotted the surface. The people of Shadow were hard workers and independent-minded. It was one of the first to stand against the Alliance. Most of the planet's young people volunteered to fight for Independence.

Shadow was aggressively bombed during the war in an attempt to break the Browncoats and teach them a lesson; it had the opposite effect."

That's why "No one lives there. No one can."


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam



Where was this info? I spent some time looking for this data, and did not find it. Had seen it before, but couldn't find it now.

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Friday, February 8, 2008 5:16 AM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Where was this info? I spent some time looking for this data, and did not find it. Had seen it before, but couldn't find it now.


Well, it's in the RPG, of course. :) But it's also listed at fireflywiki.org, where I copied it from:

http://www.fireflywiki.org/Firefly/Shadow


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Friday, February 8, 2008 7:06 AM

NBZ


Quote:

Mal volunteered as a result of the bombing of Shadow.
That does not agree with Joss' memo - in it he clearly states that Mal "...joined out of belief and nothing more". Serenity VC Page 14.

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Friday, February 8, 2008 7:22 AM

LEIASKY


I think someone needs to ask Joss when they next see him if he read and approved the first RPG book as it gave additional information on the universe he created.

Since he seems to want to keep a tight rein on this property, there's a good bet he did.

I use the RPG book as cannon in my writing as it adds so much more information that I don't have to think up myself! :)

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

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Friday, February 8, 2008 7:55 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by asarian:
Actually, I'm beginning to agree with you. Try not to faint. :)

OK, I revived myself, and after thinking for a day I'm beginning to agree with you LOL! About the bombing, anyway. Here's another scenario that occurred to me this morning:

Mal was so surprised when the Independent leadership gave up in Serenity Valley. He expected support, he thought the fight might be won. So why exactly did they give up? Perhaps there really was a chance that they'd pull off a win and extend the war, so the Alliance did a Hiroshima thing to Shadow.

In fact, I could see something like this being a flashback scene, another piece of the Mal puzzle given in a later episode. Mal and Zoe leave Hera and hear about Shadow. Mal realizes that the Independents had a good reason to surrender, but it's of no comfort to him. Oh, the angst!

Of course, this totally goes against my previous argument about the Alliance not being evil enough to bomb a planet. Oops. But then, the US bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and I don't think we're entirely evil (though we do get closer everyday.) It's culturally acceptable for us to take extreme measures to end a war, right? To stop terrorists? So...

OK, I'll try to stay off the RWED topic since I'm never going there again and don't want those people following me here LOL! *shudder*

Anyway, it's just a thought. And the beauty of fic is that there's not just one truth, right?

Leiasky: I like using the everyday details in the RPG - money, technology, etc... but I think as far as overall story arc it's not on, as NBZ points out. I'd love to hear what Joss says about it! Ask him if you ever get a chance LOL! No, that would be Leighkohl who's all buddies with the writers, huh? *jealous*

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Monday, February 11, 2008 12:58 AM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:

OK, I revived myself, and after thinking for a day I'm beginning to agree with you LOL! About the bombing, anyway.


Ok, I've now, myself, revived from your revival. :) LOL

Quote:


Here's another scenario that occurred to me this morning:

Mal was so surprised when the Independent leadership gave up in Serenity Valley. He expected support, he thought the fight might be won. So why exactly did they give up? Perhaps there really was a chance that they'd pull off a win and extend the war, so the Alliance did a Hiroshima thing to Shadow.


Hmm, I can't help but think about what Harken said:

"Independents suffered a pretty crushing defeat there. Some say that after Serenity, the Browncoats were through. That the war ended in that valley."

Seems to me like, if it happened that way, he would have mentioned their version of Hiroshima in there somewhere, wouldn't he?

Well, for starters, how many inhabitants did Shadow actually have? A rural place like that, with no major cities, could be not millions died, but 'just' a few thousand. So, your Hiroshima thingy could very well still have happened.

Also, one keeps wondering, what's with BOTH sides leaving them stranded in Serenity Valley for two weeks after the Independence's High Commander had surrendered? Did perhaps some other cataclysmic event take place which had them all distracted, like your Hiroshima thing?

Alrighty, now I'm all confused! You fog things up. :) But in good ways; in ways that make one think.

Quote:


Of course, this totally goes against my previous argument about the Alliance not being evil enough to bomb a planet. Oops. But then, the US bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and I don't think we're entirely evil (though we do get closer everyday.) It's culturally acceptable for us to take extreme measures to end a war, right? To stop terrorists? So...


I once made a pretty cogent case -- if I dare say so myself -- showing the Alliance is not an inherently Evil Empire. But war is dirty business; and killing a couple of thousand settlers on a rural planet near the Core, to make a point, so to speak, I wouldn't put it past them. Especially not DURING the war. I'm thinking the "Shining the light of civilization" jingle didn't hit the airwaves until long after the dust settled. :)

Quote:


OK, I'll try to stay off the RWED topic since I'm never going there again and don't want those people following me here LOL! *shudder*


Yep, never go there my own self, either! *shudder* That's Reaver territory! Not even the Alliance ventures there. You go to RWED, you're signing up to be a banquet! :)


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Monday, February 11, 2008 6:23 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by asarian:
Seems to me like, if it happened that way, he would have mentioned their version of Hiroshima in there somewhere, wouldn't he?

Absolutely - good point. But I don't think that should stop us from pondering. The Alliance could have a moratorium on Shadow's fate, a cover story they stick to, so they wouldn't mention it in front of an ex-Browncoat...

See - any damned fic-storyline can be covered if I wave my hands enough LOL!


Quote:

Also, one keeps wondering, what's with BOTH sides leaving them stranded in Serenity Valley for two weeks after the Independence's High Commander had surrendered? Did perhaps some other cataclysmic event take place which had them all distracted, like your Hiroshima thing?
It does work, doesn't it? Either way, it seems highly likely - definite, in fact - that there's more to the war/Shadow story and Joss would have spun it out in bits, just like he did with Angel and Spike's history.

As for your confusion - I figure that until everything is actually set down by Joss, many differing scenarios are equally possible. It's all about identifying the details that don't fit and finding ways to smooth them over - even Joss had to do that with the movie, right?

Quote:

I once made a pretty cogent case -- if I dare say so myself -- showing the Alliance is not an inherently Evil Empire. But war is dirty business; and killing a couple of thousand settlers on a rural planet near the Core, to make a point, so to speak, I wouldn't put it past them.
I totally agree. The Alliance would definitely do something so horrible as destroy Shadow - but it wouldn't be like Ming the Merciless laughing maniacally as he pushes the buttons. The Alliance would have reasons, intentions to do good. Same as the US in WWII. Same as the Operative. Nothing's black and white in Joss's verse. (Oh, I love it so!)

Quote:

You go to RWED, you're signing up to be a banquet! :)
Mm-hmm. I learned the hard way - I'm missing a rather large piece of my ass. Makes sitting difficult.


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Friday, February 15, 2008 1:45 AM

WYTCHCROFT


damn fine thread:)

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Friday, February 15, 2008 8:00 AM

NCBROWNCOAT


After reading all your fine posts it seems to me that Shadow was either a Hiroshima like act at or near the end of the Battle of Serenity Valley or less likely a horrible accident around in the same time frame.

The quick capitulation of the Independent forces after holding off the Alliance for weeks on Hera seems to indicate this.

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Saturday, February 16, 2008 3:45 PM

TRAVELER


Is it made clear that Shadow is uninhabitable?
The term destruction does not mean that Shadow can not be repopulated. Both Hiroshima and Nagasaki still exist after the United States destroyed the fabric of the cities. These cities were both rebuilt.

If Shadow was mainly rural population then it would not take the entire destruction of the planet to wipe out a few small towns and some homesteaders.

As for Mal lose of faith, I get the opinion that he lost his faith after the surrender at Serenity Valley because no one came to care for the wounded or bring supplies to the survivors. Both the Browncoats and the Aliance left their troops to suffer for a long period of time after the surrender. This is what I understand to cause the great number of casualties on both sides.

Mal understood the casualties in combat, but to witness troops dieing of their wounds and of starvation was a new experience that shattered his faith in both God and I would assume the cause.

When the call to lay down arms came, Mal had several soldiers standing around him. But after the war the impression I got was Zoe was the only remaining member of the battalion besides himself. Thus the anger in Mal's eyes and Zoe's remark to Jayne to leave the ship's galley after Jayne asks how many survived Serenity Valley.


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Traveler

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Sunday, February 17, 2008 6:23 AM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by traveler:

Is it made clear that Shadow is uninhabitable?


Non-canon RPG: "No one lives there. No one can."

Quote:


The term destruction does not mean that Shadow can not be repopulated. Both Hiroshima and Nagasaki still exist after the United States destroyed the fabric of the cities. These cities were both rebuilt.

If Shadow was mainly rural population then it would not take the entire destruction of the planet to wipe out a few small towns and some homesteaders.


Precisely. It could just mean exactly that: however much population was on it having been wiped out. It doesn't necessarily mean every square inch had become uninhabitable: just the inches that were habitated. :)

Quote:


As for Mal lose of faith, I get the opinion that he lost his faith after the surrender at Serenity Valley because no one came to care for the wounded or bring supplies to the survivors. Both the Browncoats and the Aliance left their troops to suffer for a long period of time after the surrender. This is what I understand to cause the great number of casualties on both sides.


Zoe, indeed, explains so in the pilot's deleted scene: that folks only started dying en masse when no one came for them.

The question which continues to intrigue me, though, is the WHY of it. The Alliance leaving Browncoats to rot, I can see that. But the Alliance didn't come for their own troops, either! Nor did the Browncoats send in help. All of this is pretty odd, if you think about it. Seems to me we're missing a piece of the puzzle.

Quote:


Mal understood the casualties in combat, but to witness troops dieing of their wounds and of starvation was a new experience that shattered his faith in both God and I would assume the cause.


Yes, no one came to care for the wounded or bring supplies to the survivors. And if a man ever had good cause to lose his faith in God, that would do it. But clearly Mal and Zoe are NOT resentful towards the Browncoats for leaving them to die out there. So, I'm thinking they must afterwards have come to believe the Browncoats had, if not an excuse, then a damn solid reason for not showing up! So, Mal4prez' Hiroshima thingy is, far as I'm concerned, still on the table.


--
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Sunday, February 17, 2008 11:38 AM

TRAVELER


Hello asarian:

Thank you for your response. I did not know where to search for the answer about Shadow's destuction. I knew there would be many here that were more knowledgable than I about this, so I asked.

As for Serenity Valley, I can not help but feel that the Browncoats and the Alliance could have come to some sort of truce to rescue their troops. Since it was an Alliance victory they would carry the responsibility for treating the survivors. It may have been a matter of man power that prompted Alliance to neglect the of rescue of the survivors. The Alliance could afford to lose soldiers and the Browncoats could not. It does save the expense not to have so many prisoners to take care of.
It also gives you a glimpse of what to expect from the Alliance as a governing body.

Thanks Again;
Traveler


http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
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Monday, February 18, 2008 9:59 AM

HAWKMOTH


I believed from the very beginning of the show, based on the theme song, and something Joss said in an early interview, that Mal's home world (before we knew it was named Shadow) had been destroyed/rendered uninhabitable at some point in the war. Along with his quest to be free from Alliance control, he went "into the black" because he had no home to return to once the war was over.

That led me to write one of my first FF stories, "Bloodlines," placing the attack on Shadow in context with the Battle of Serenity.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=854

I clarified that somewhat in Part Three of "All Is Bright."

http://www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=2770

I'd have to look around, but there were subsequent interviews in which Joss did make it clear that Shadow was no more.

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Monday, February 18, 2008 11:20 AM

HISTORYPHIL


I agree that the delay in evacuating the troops (both Browncoat and Alliance) from Serenity Valley may have been a matter of lack of logistic support. If so, then the delay is not necessarily neglect it may have been simple inability to bring in the ship and supplies needed to evacuate the troops.

In the bar scene at the beginning of the Train Job (I think) the Alliance man says that Serenity Valley is when the Browncoats lost the war. He does not say that is when all fighting stopped. If there was still fighting going on elsewhere it is possible that neither side had the ships available to help the troops in the Valley.

Of course, it is always more emotionally satisfying to attribute evil intent to the other side.

Just my two cents.


Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before.

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Monday, February 18, 2008 2:18 PM

NBZ


Anyone say negotiations? No? Why not?

Such things take time.

Independents: "We Surrender..."
Alliance: "Jolly Good. W-"
Independents: "... But..."
Alliance (Mumbling): "there is a but."
Alliance(Louder with impatience): "Well what is it? Spit it out. We got a victory celebration to uhm... celebrate."
Independents: "There is still an issue of YOUR PEOPLE STILL TRYING TO KILL MY PEOPLE!"
Alliance: "Oops my bad. Oh and none of this 'my people' talk. That won't go down too well now will it?"
Independents: "Ok, we'll just go collect THE troops and then we will get the final terms sorted out."
Alliance: "You can't do that - you quit! And why are you sending you sending down reinforcements?"
Independents: "Reinforcements? They are just empty ships to pick up the troops"
Alliance: "Riiight. That is what you call it? No."
Independents: "No? 'No' what?"
Alliance: "Do you see us for fools? You WILL NOT reinforce your lines! now just let us get our troops and we will start the shindig already"
Independents: "hang on a minute... I smell a rat"
Alliance: "What? A rat? Where?"
Independents: "If you send your people, we'll also send ours."
Alliance: "But I thought you quit!"
...
[Two weeks later]
Independents: "Oh hell with it, you collect your people, and ours!"
Alliance: "Quitter! oh... uhm... ok."

@HistoryPhil: In Bushwacked, the commander guy doing the interviewing also hinted that the War did not end right there. It was seen as a major loss from which the Independents did not recover.

Also: why does Shadow have to be a small sparsely populated world? The way it is phrased in the memo by Joss, it does not sound like that to me. "Planets such as Hera, Persephone and Shadow mustered up forces - more than half volunteers - to stop..."

From my understanding, none of these worlds are part of the "rim" but were gateway planets - not core, but not out there close to the vasty nothingness either. Well off, thriving worlds. Up to the war anyway.

There could have been substantial loss of life.

or not if you go by some stories - Virtual Firefly have a tale where there is a different sort of destruction. (You may wanna read it - episode 2x17 on stillflying.net)

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Monday, February 18, 2008 7:18 PM

NCBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by nbz:
Anyone say negotiations? No? Why not?

Such things take time.

Independents: "We Surrender..."
Alliance: "Jolly Good. W-"
Independents: "... But..."
Alliance (Mumbling): "there is a but."
Alliance(Louder with impatience): "Well what is it? Spit it out. We got a victory celebration to uhm... celebrate."
Independents: "There is still an issue of YOUR PEOPLE STILL TRYING TO KILL MY PEOPLE!"
Alliance: "Oops my bad. Oh and none of this 'my people' talk. That won't go down too well now will it?"
Independents: "Ok, we'll just go collect THE troops and then we will get the final terms sorted out."
Alliance: "You can't do that - you quit! And why are you sending you sending down reinforcements?"
Independents: "Reinforcements? They are just empty ships to pick up the troops"
Alliance: "Riiight. That is what you call it? No."
Independents: "No? 'No' what?"
Alliance: "Do you see us for fools? You WILL NOT reinforce your lines! now just let us get our troops and we will start the shindig already"
Independents: "hang on a minute... I smell a rat"
Alliance: "What? A rat? Where?"
Independents: "If you send your people, we'll also send ours."
Alliance: "But I thought you quit!"
...
[Two weeks later]
Independents: "Oh hell with it, you collect your people, and ours!"
Alliance: "Quitter! oh... uhm... ok."

@HistoryPhil: In Bushwacked, the commander guy doing the interviewing also hinted that the War did not end right there. It was seen as a major loss from which the Independents did not recover.

Also: why does Shadow have to be a small sparsely populated world? The way it is phrased in the memo by Joss, it does not sound like that to me. "Planets such as Hera, Persephone and Shadow mustered up forces - more than half volunteers - to stop..."

From my understanding, none of these worlds are part of the "rim" but were gateway planets - not core, but not out there close to the vasty nothingness either. Well off, thriving worlds. Up to the war anyway.

There could have been substantial loss of life.

or not if you go by some stories - Virtual Firefly have a tale where there is a different sort of destruction. (You may wanna read it - episode 2x17 on stillflying.net)



Nbz, that type of "negotiation" most likely happened. Any one old enough to remember the Paris "peace talks" between the US and North Vietnam will remember that they lasted years. They took a long while just to decide the shape of the table. I don't think anything would change in 500 years.

Even if there was a Hiroshima like bombing there would be some sort of talks. Details have to be hammered out and there may have been some dissention among the Independent high command.

Also, I always picture Shadow as Central Texas. Specifically from about Killeen (I spent 3 years there as an Army spouse at Ft. Hood in the mid 1990's)to just north of San Antonio. Very beautiful country.

Basically rural with ranches and farms with rolling grassland, plenty of water with lakes and streams, small towns, maybe 1 or 2 larger towns that serve as the links off planet, but no grand cities, with it's meat and produce going directly to the Core to appear on tables in the best restaurants and apartment kitchen tables.





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Tuesday, February 19, 2008 12:36 AM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by HawkMoth:

I believed from the very beginning of the show, based on the theme song, and something Joss said in an early interview, that Mal's home world (before we knew it was named Shadow) had been destroyed/rendered uninhabitable at some point in the war. Along with his quest to be free from Alliance control, he went "into the black" because he had no home to return to once the war was over.

(...)

I'd have to look around, but there were subsequent interviews in which Joss did make it clear that Shadow was no more.


Thank you, HawkMoth! I consider this to be vital information. Can't recall the interviews my own self, but If he really did say that, then I think we're very close to elevating the total destruction of Shadow to the level of canon.

Yes, there' s the theme song, of course:

"Take my land. Take me where I cannot stand. I don't care, I'm still free. You can't take the sky from me."

Especially "where I cannot stand" seems to construe, I must admit, with RPG's: "No one lives there. No one can."

Quote:

Originally posted by NBZ:


Also: why does Shadow have to be a small sparsely populated world? The way it is phrased in the memo by Joss, it does not sound like that to me. "Planets such as Hera, Persephone and Shadow mustered up forces - more than half volunteers - to stop..."


Good question. :) Short answer: it doesn't HAVE to be sparsely populated. Longer answer. I postulate the following:

The likeliness of the Alliance wiping out all life on Shadow is inversely proportional to the size of its population.

As argued by Mal4prez and NBZ, it's rather unlikely for the Alliance to obliterate a population the size of Persephone. Bombing on a planetary scale that affects millions, if not tens or hundreds of millions, just seems a mite too evil. Which is why I suggested a rural place like that, with no major cities, could be not millions died, but 'just' a few thousand. Just to pull it into the realm of "more likely" events. Also, second postulation:

The more folks died on Shadow, the more likely we'd have heard about it.

You'd think there be some mention of it in Simon's PDA thingy, or that Harken would have mentioned such a major event. Or anyone, for that matter (yes, millions died on Miranda too, whereas none of of us "knowed" that; but Miranda was located on the far rim, unlike Shadow, positioned so near the Core). So, this got me to think that maybe Shadow weren't as densely populated as, say, Persephone. None of this, btw, should be considered proof of any kind. Just see it as me thinking out-loud on what might have been.

Quote:

Originally posted by HistoryPhil:

In the bar scene at the beginning of the Train Job (I think) the Alliance man says that Serenity Valley is when the Browncoats lost the war. He does not say that is when all fighting stopped. If there was still fighting going on elsewhere it is possible that neither side had the ships available to help the troops in the Valley.


Earlier I quoted Harken as saying:

"Independents suffered a pretty crushing defeat there. Some say that after Serenity, the Browncoats were through. That the war ended in that valley."

I'd say there's an almost 100% consensus among the Browncoats here that the war did not end in Serenity Valley, but that Serenity Valley was the beginning of the end. So, no argument there.

Quote:

Originally posted by HistoryPhil:

Of course, it is always more emotionally satisfying to attribute evil intent to the other side.


Or, we're just trying to find a proper timeslot for the destruction of Shadow.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Tuesday, February 19, 2008 6:58 AM

HISTORYPHIL


Quote:

Originally posted by asarian:
Quote:

Originally posted by HawkMoth:

I believed from the very beginning of the show, based on the theme song, and something Joss said in an early interview, that Mal's home world (before we knew it was named Shadow) had been destroyed/rendered uninhabitable at some point in the war. Along with his quest to be free from Alliance control, he went "into the black" because he had no home to return to once the war was over.

(...)

I'd have to look around, but there were subsequent interviews in which Joss did make it clear that Shadow was no more.


Thank you, HawkMoth! I consider this to be vital information. Can't recall the interviews my own self, but If he really did say that, then I think we're very close to elevating the total destruction of Shadow to the level of canon.

Yes, there' s the theme song, of course:

"Take my land. Take me where I cannot stand. I don't care, I'm still free. You can't take the sky from me."

Especially "where I cannot stand" seems to construe, I must admit, with RPG's: "No one lives there. No one can."

Quote:

Originally posted by NBZ:


Also: why does Shadow have to be a small sparsely populated world? The way it is phrased in the memo by Joss, it does not sound like that to me. "Planets such as Hera, Persephone and Shadow mustered up forces - more than half volunteers - to stop..."


Good question. :) Short answer: it doesn't HAVE to be sparsely populated. Longer answer. I postulate the following:

The likeliness of the Alliance wiping out all life on Shadow is inversely proportional to the size of its population.

As argued by Mal4prez and NBZ, it's rather unlikely for the Alliance to obliterate a population the size of Persephone. Bombing on a planetary scale that affects millions, if not tens or hundreds of millions, just seems a mite too evil. Which is why I suggested a rural place like that, with no major cities, could be not millions died, but 'just' a few thousand. Just to pull it into the realm of "more likely" events. Also, second postulation:

The more folks died on Shadow, the more likely we'd have heard about it.

You'd think there be some mention of it in Simon's PDA thingy, or that Harken would have mentioned such a major event. Or anyone, for that matter (yes, millions died on Miranda too, whereas none of of us "knowed" that; but Miranda was located on the far rim, unlike Shadow, positioned so near the Core). So, this got me to think that maybe Shadow weren't as densely populated as, say, Persephone. None of this, btw, should be considered proof of any kind. Just see it as me thinking out-loud on what might have been.

Quote:

Originally posted by HistoryPhil:

In the bar scene at the beginning of the Train Job (I think) the Alliance man says that Serenity Valley is when the Browncoats lost the war. He does not say that is when all fighting stopped. If there was still fighting going on elsewhere it is possible that neither side had the ships available to help the troops in the Valley.


Earlier I quoted Harken as saying:

"Independents suffered a pretty crushing defeat there. Some say that after Serenity, the Browncoats were through. That the war ended in that valley."

I'd say there's an almost 100% consensus among the Browncoats here that the war did not end in Serenity Valley, but that Serenity Valley was the beginning of the end. So, no argument there.

Quote:

Originally posted by HistoryPhil:

Of course, it is always more emotionally satisfying to attribute evil intent to the other side.


Or, we're just trying to find a proper timeslot for the destruction of Shadow.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam



I have heard the Battle of Serenity Valley compared to the Battle of Gettysburg in the American Civil War. They were both turning points where hope for victory was lost. The Battle of Gettysburg was in July of 1863 but the Confederate surrender at Appomattox Courthouse was not until April of 1865 not quite two years later. In between was (among other battles) Sherman’s March to the Sea, a swath of destruction 300 miles wide.

To bring the discussion back to the destruction of Shadow; it seems to me it is likely that Shadow was burned off after Serenity Valley in a campaign similar to Sherman’s March to the sea. This would have been while Mal and Zoe were POWs. Mal and Zoe would have learned about Shadow either as a rumor while in the POW camp (the camp officials would not announce such news for fear of a riot), or after the formal surrender and they were released.

I guess we need to know how long was it between Serenity Valley and the formal surrender of the Independents?

(An unrelated question: Where did Mal and Zoe get the money to buy a Firefly?)


--------------------------
Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before.

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Tuesday, February 19, 2008 10:29 AM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by HistoryPhil:

I have heard the Battle of Serenity Valley compared to the Battle of Gettysburg in the American Civil War. They were both turning points where hope for victory was lost. The Battle of Gettysburg was in July of 1863 but the Confederate surrender at Appomattox Courthouse was not until April of 1865 not quite two years later. In between was (among other battles) Sherman’s March to the Sea, a swath of destruction 300 miles wide.


Folks here have also compared the Battle of Serenity Valley to another turning point in the Civil War: the Richmond-Petersburg Campaign (commonly known as the 'Siege' of Petersburg), because Alliance troops advanced into Serenity Valley expecting to face minimal opposition, yet instead ran into heavily entrenched resistance (as Mal says in the pilot: "The Alliance said they were going to waltz through Serenity Valley. Well, we choked them with those words.") Nearly half a million people lay dead on that field at day's end, about a third of them 'winners'.

The Battle of Serenity itself lasted seven weeks (two weeks after the Independence High Commander had surrendered). Zoe:

"I said the fighting was over. But you see they left us there. Wounded, and sick, and near to mad as can still walk and talk. Both sides left us there while they 'negotiated the peace'. For a week. And we just kept dying. When they finally sent in Medships, he had about a hundred and fifty left, and of our original platoon, just me."

The Battle of Gettysburg ended July 3, 1863. Sherman's March to the Sea took place at least after September 1864. I don't think there was that much of a gap between the loss of Serenity Valley and the end of all hostilties. But to draw a parallel between what happened to Shadow and Sherman's "scorched earth" tactics is nonetheless a very interesting and plausible way of looking at things. :)

Quote:


I guess we need to know how long was it between Serenity Valley and the formal surrender of the Independents?


I think we can all pretty much agree on the fact that by the celebration of the first Unification Day the war was definitely over. So, when did the Battle of Serenity take place? The Operative's data pad (deleted scenes, BDM) clearly reads: "May 2511 on Hera."Jewelstaitefan has argued "Late July 2511" and sets Unification Day at "Approx 12-17 August 2511". Though the matter is still up in the air, suffice to say we're talking weeks (a good two months max) here, not years between the Battle of Serenity and Unification Day.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Tuesday, February 19, 2008 12:56 PM

HISTORYPHIL


The destruction of a planet would certainly be an effective tactic for speeding up the peace talks.

For another historical analogy that has already been mentioned; in World War II we called on the Japanese to surrender or we would unleash our all-powerful secret weapon. They didn’t surrender. We dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima. They didn’t surrender. Three days later we dropped an atomic bomb on Nagasaki. They surrendered.

Maybe the Independents learned something from history.



--------------------------
Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before.

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Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:58 PM

HAWKMOTH



(An unrelated question: Where did Mal and Zoe get the money to buy a Firefly?)


We know from the Serenity pilot that six years passed from the end of the battle to the salvage operation the crew was performing for Badger. I always assumed that once Mal and Zoe were let loose by the Alliance, they made a living working as hired guns, bodyguards, or security for various traders/smugglers/whoever would hire them; to make money to live on, and save up for a ship of his own. They probably did this for a few years; then got Serenity up and running a couple of years before the action of the series begins.

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