FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Mal and Wash in War Stories

POSTED BY: CECIL
UPDATED: Sunday, January 18, 2004 17:41
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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 1:27 PM

CECIL


Okay, I was watching this episode again the other day and the conversation between Mal and Wash when Miska has them both tied up about how Zoe would always listen and do whatever Mal said. But Mal suddenely shouts out that there was one thing she didnt do, Marry You! he said to Wash. I would just love to know what Wash would have said to that, but nothing is ever said again on the subject. Thoughts?

MAL
"Nice shot."
JAYNE
(slurred)
"I was aiming for his head"

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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 2:55 PM

LADYJAYNE


Yep. Mal was saying anything he could possibly think of to piss off Wash enough to keep him conscious. Whether or not he really did approved of Zoe & Wash's marriage seemed irrelevant to me.

--Kala

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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 5:37 PM

DITHER


Didn't Mal say that line before Niska even entered the room? So maybe there's some truth to it. I would love to see some more of the backstory on Wash and Zoe. How the hell did they ever get hooked up?

Another thing about WAR STORIES. During the torture scenes someone posted they thought Mal's cutoff ear was on the wrong side in one shot. Turns out the image is just reversed. The buttons on Mal's shirt are on the right side and the pocket on the left. In that one scene (where the device is attached to his chest) the buttons are now on the left side and pocket on the right.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 7:38 PM

TOM


I dunno but i always got the impression that at first Wash was into Zoe and that was the main reason he joined the crew. Zoe didnt like him so I guess Wash was like a fungus, he had to grow on her before she began to like him.

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Thursday, January 15, 2004 10:28 AM

TALLGRRL


Quote:

Originally posted by Tom:
I dunno but i always got the impression that at first Wash was into Zoe and that was the main reason he joined the crew. Zoe didnt like him so I guess Wash was like a fungus, he had to grow on her before she began to like him.



In Out of Gas, the section where Mal and Zoe are interviewing Wash, check out Wash's quick and sly once-over of Zoe when he says "Might do, might do".
Judging by the look on her face, she caught it and was fighting the urge to clock him.

I think Wash would have joined up regardless of Zoe. But how could any sane man with sight not be wantin' some of her?
: )

"Take me, sir. Take me hard."

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Thursday, January 15, 2004 11:04 AM

VICPALISADES


Always thought it was interesting in "The Message" that Wash told Kaylee he would pursue her if he wasnt married. Then in "Heart of GOld" Wash and Zoe argue about having a child and during the assault of Serenity Wash hits the ground and Kayle falls on top of him and they share (if memory serves) a very unusual "look".

Maybe down the road (had the series continued) we might have seen Wash and Zoe split only to see he and Kaylee hook up ...would certainly have made for some interesting television and character development.



"My mind is like a steel trap- rusty, and illegal in 37 states."

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Thursday, January 15, 2004 12:11 PM

SARAHETC


There's a definite Wash-Kaylee energy there. And it had such potential.

Sometimes I think that any character development for Wash would have been good character developement. We, as an audience, really don't get to see him as much other than "wacky" or "the funny one" until War Stories and in War Stories he's still entirely linked to Zoe. It toes the idea of letting him be an individual but brings it back to marriage. Certainly that's a large part of his identity and they only had sixty minutes to work with, etc., but I think it leaves him as a largely underdeveloped character. Further he's an underdevelped character who also lacks the intrigue-factor of a Book or a River.

Similarly, in War Stories, it seems to be Mal that most viewers concentrate on. I think that, yes, it is easier to focus on how basically {b]hard Mal is in those scenes-- all of them leading up to "You wanna meet the real me now?" Wash is necessarily soft comparitively and that makes for less dramatic tension. I, though, was much more affected by Wash's head-lolling, breathless, "You never slept with my wife" that I was with Mal's baiting.

I'm also thinking that the ending, priceless as it is, cheated the Mal-Wash set up (or its potential). Here were lengthy scenes probably designed to let viewers know that Mal was educating Wash. As if he were saying, Here's how it is. You married Zoe and that's fine, but you're crew and that's rough and yeah I'm probably bitter about it cos I don't like her being happy when I can't or won't let myself be happy. But as far as this torture is concerned, I'll make sure you live cos you're my crew. Then, at the end, it comes back to the superficial two men fighting over one woman dynamic when there might have been an opportunity to show Wash and Mal accepting one another--Wash accepting Mal and his relationship with Zoe and Mal accepting Wash and his relationship with Zoe. I don't want necessarily to be beaten over the head with it, but the ending, as it is, seems to brush it off in favor of the humor, which is excellent.

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

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Thursday, January 15, 2004 1:13 PM

SQUEE


I thought that this was one of the best episodes because you get to see so much of who the characters are. As far as Mal's "She married you!" line... I'm not sure what Wash would have said, but I think he would have been impressed with Zoe for defying Mal on such a serious topic as marrige.
Now as far as the Wash-Kaylee thing... I don't think it would have happened- not to the extent of betraying/ breaking up with Zoe. Wash and Zoe are very dedicated to each other, you can see it in almost every episode. I don't think Wash would give her up for anything.

When you can't run, you crawl, and when you can't crawl, you find someone to carry you.

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Thursday, January 15, 2004 5:44 PM

TALLGRRL


Quote:

Originally posted by VicPalisades:
Always thought it was interesting in "The Message" that Wash told Kaylee he would pursue her if he wasnt married.
"My mind is like a steel trap- rusty, and illegal in 37 states."



I'm thinking that it was Wash being his usual nice-guy self trying to make Kaylee feel better about herself.
The line itself gives you an idea of how he felt. It's went something like:
"...if I wasn't married I would take you in a manly fashion."
His reading is sweet and kind...but extremely dry.
Wash would throw himself onto a grenade for Zoe.
He sure stood up to Mal when she was hurt in OOG.
And Zoe? She loves Wash enough to have married him against the wishes of Mal, the only man other than Wash that she would trust with her life. In fact, she probably would trust Mal's decisions more than Wash's because of the "history" she and Mal share.
(And I don't know about you, but I'm wondering if Mal and Zoe didn't have at least one intimate moment and decided that they couldn't function on that level in wartime, and pulled back.)

Anyway, it's very obvious how much Wash and Zoe love each other, disagreements, "history" or whatever.


"Take me, sir. Take me hard."

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Thursday, January 15, 2004 6:09 PM

VICPALISADES


Quote:

Originally posted by Squee:
I don't think Wash would give her up for anything.



I'm not so sure..I mean, having a kid is a BIG responsibility...if Wash doesnt think he's ready and is set in his ways then I could definitely see a seperation.

I mean, we all know and love the characters, sure, but intersting stories/plots aren't bred out of everyone always winning and everyone alwyas getting thier way.

It's like Joss said in the Serenity commentary...these guys don't always win...they just get by (Im paraphrasing)...what would be more interesting? To see Zoe and Wash happy and smiling and everything always right with them or for him to make a dumb decision and have to deal with the consequences?

Before you answer...remember War Stories...that whole episode was bred from Wash letting his ego get the better of him and everything going to hell.

I stick by my guns..there is something between Wash and Kaylee...and given time I have no doubt we would have seen more. Maybe not a full blown affair, but then again maybe so.

When I saw Mal kick the guy into the engines on the first episode I ever saw, I knew everything regarding what I thought about this show or what could happen was out the window.

Just my thoughts anyway.

"My mind is like a steel trap- rusty, and illegal in 37 states."

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Thursday, January 15, 2004 7:15 PM

FREMDFIRMA


I dunno, I think they did a right good job of character development on Wash in War Stories.

You definately get to see that Wash and Zoe have a real relationship with ups and downs, as anyone else does, and that Wash is completely capable of seriously telling Zoe off without getting the crap beaten out of him (so obviously she must respect him and his opinion more than is usually assumed.).

You also get to see Wash find a part of himself he never suspected, not during the torture, but rather, when Zoe tells him that Niska is gonna make it last days, Wash finds his 'inner beast' in a hurry... "Niska's not gonna get days!"
(Alan's facial expressions bring Wash to 'life' sooo well, don't they ?)
That whole scene in the shuttle was a tight focus on who Wash is, and his realization of why Zoe respects Mal so much, and how far Mal will go for his crew, and in that moment of realization, he steps 'above himself' - and you realize that had his personality developed differently... Wash could be a very dangerous dude.

And unlike Simon (who's not exactly thrilled with the idea), or Kaylee (who's too kind to), Wash *will* shoot people and not feel guilty about it..and I've noticed in several other eps that Wash has an abundance of courage, he just doesn't have the skillset or mindset of soldier.

There's a world of difference between a pacifist and a cremepuff, and Wash is certainly no cremepuff, that's for sure.

-frem
diefuxdie

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Thursday, January 15, 2004 8:00 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.


Quote:

Originally posted by VicPalisades:
Quote:


I stick by my guns..there is something between Wash and Kaylee...and given time I have no doubt we would have seen more. Maybe not a full blown affair, but then again maybe so.



Never in a million years. Wash is just being kind to a crewmate. "Were I not wed, I would take you in a manly fasion." come on, there is no serious implications to that statement what so ever, especially the way it's delivered.

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Thursday, January 15, 2004 8:18 PM

VICPALISADES


"Just being kind?"

Maybe..but I think that is simplifing Wash too much. Men, even married men, can and do get feelings for other women. It happens, in real life and in television.

Now, if we want to think Wash is a cardboard cut out character, then sure, I agree that he was "just being nice." But I like the show and character way too much to hang that on either.

Then theres that moment in The Message that makes me think otherwise..especially after he and Zoe go at it.

Ah well..opinions vary, do they not?

To be honest, I keep my fingers crossed that someday Joss will get a chance to prove me wrong...cause that means Firefly will be back on the air!



"My mind is like a steel trap- rusty, and illegal in 37 states."

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Friday, January 16, 2004 7:25 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I dunno, I think they did a right good job of character development on Wash in War Stories.

You definately get to see that Wash and Zoe have a real relationship with ups and downs, as anyone else does, and that Wash is completely capable of seriously telling Zoe off without getting the crap beaten out of him (so obviously she must respect him and his opinion more than is usually assumed.).

You also get to see Wash find a part of himself he never suspected, not during the torture, but rather, when Zoe tells him that Niska is gonna make it last days, Wash finds his 'inner beast' in a hurry... "Niska's not gonna get days!"
(Alan's facial expressions bring Wash to 'life' sooo well, don't they ?)
That whole scene in the shuttle was a tight focus on who Wash is, and his realization of why Zoe respects Mal so much, and how far Mal will go for his crew, and in that moment of realization, he steps 'above himself' - and you realize that had his personality developed differently... Wash could be a very dangerous dude.

And unlike Simon (who's not exactly thrilled with the idea), or Kaylee (who's too kind to), Wash *will* shoot people and not feel guilty about it..and I've noticed in several other eps that Wash has an abundance of courage, he just doesn't have the skillset or mindset of soldier.

There's a world of difference between a pacifist and a cremepuff, and Wash is certainly no cremepuff, that's for sure.



Have to agree w/ Fremdfirma. I think that we got to see a whole new side of Wash in "War Stories". I feel that Wash could use some more on screen time, and a little more development, but in this episode, we got to see several facets of his character.

He stood up to Zoe. I never saw that coming. He is normally so docile w/ her, seeming to be content w/ the role of husband and following her lead. In War Stories we get to see his jealous side, further convincing me of his deep love for Zoe. For him to not only argue w/ her, but to continue to push when both Zoe & Mal make it apparent they are getting aggrivated w/ him shows how far he is willing to go when he thinks he is right, even when he is being a jealous fool.

We also got to see the side of him where he is willing to fight and die for his friends. When he tells Zoe "He doesn't get days!" and they go in and start packing the guns, we get to see a deadly serious side to him, a strength we had not seen up to that point.

I think given time we would have seen more fleshing out of the Wash character.

As for the Wash/Kaylee thing, I don't think there is anything there. They are friends sure, comrades who find themselves in dangerous spots at times, but nothing more.

I think Kaylee was feeling a need for affirmation, and Wash being her friend said what he did to encourage her and bolster her self esteem. I do not for one minute think he would jeopardize his relationship w/ Zoe for anything or anyone.



"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Friday, January 16, 2004 6:51 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Besides, Zoe would kill his ass.. with her pinky.

-frem
diefuxdie

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Friday, January 16, 2004 8:03 PM

JAYE


I agree. Wash and Zoe love each other very much. That is one of the main reasons I love the show is the chemistry the two of them have together. It would kill me if they had ever broke them up.

Jaye

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Sunday, January 18, 2004 5:41 PM

ANKHAGOGO


When I saw Mal kick the guy into the engines on the first episode I ever saw, I knew everything regarding what I thought about this show or what could happen was out the window.

I have learned, over seven years of Buffy and five (is that right?) of Angel, that trying to guess what the hell Joss Whedon might do with a show is a first-class ticket to Frustrationville. It's fun to speculate, sure, but I try not to even pretend that I have any idea what could or could not happen, cause as soon as I do that, he's likely to pull the rug right out from under me. Though frankly, it's kinda nice to not be able to predict what's going to happen next, no matter how frustrating it may be.

Ankhagogo



"She was naked---and all...articulate!"

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