FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

More Subtle yet interesting show observations - post yours

POSTED BY: JEWELSTAITEFAN
UPDATED: Friday, December 19, 2008 07:29
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Wednesday, September 10, 2008 11:54 AM

LURKALOT


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Quote:

Originally posted by Lurkalot:

Bottom line is I think Firefly and Serenity are excellent



Not sure what obvious reasons you would suppose caucasians don't feel the need to grasp and revel in the concept of victimhood. Perhaps you feel the victimhood angle is the sole domain of minorities.

All of the characters had wonderful backstories which were tragically not explored due to the unfortunate cancellation.
Posts like yours force me and others to disengage from the feel-good of enjoying our show


Whereas I agree about the back stories being excellent and your related comments to that effect , the rest of your comments are just baloney! Victimhood? Did you even read my comments or just knee jerked to things you didnt like?
Every comment I made was for discussion including the problems people have in discussing race which you sadly have proved.
I am sorry this has proved too difficult to discuss because the universe we are talking about lends itself well to those discussions.

Great shows. Interesting verse. But are the fans really ready?

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Thursday, September 11, 2008 10:52 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Lurkalot:
Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Quote:

Originally posted by Lurkalot:

Bottom line is I think Firefly and Serenity are excellent



Not sure what obvious reasons you would suppose caucasians don't feel the need to grasp and revel in the concept of victimhood. Perhaps you feel the victimhood angle is the sole domain of minorities.

All of the characters had wonderful backstories which were tragically not explored due to the unfortunate cancellation.
Posts like yours force me and others to disengage from the feel-good of enjoying our show


Whereas I agree about the back stories being excellent and your related comments to that effect , the rest of your comments are just baloney! Victimhood? Did you even read my comments or just knee jerked to things you didnt like?
Every comment I made was for discussion including the problems people have in discussing race which you sadly have proved.
I am sorry this has proved too difficult to discuss because the universe we are talking about lends itself well to those discussions.

Great shows. Interesting verse. But are the fans really ready?



I read your comments, which is why my reply was directed towards your comments and not others. You may feel there are issues of race to be discussed. In this verse I cannot recall any mention, implication, suggestion of race issues, nor justification for imposing such views upon the verse. The closest I can recall were caste structure (non-racial, per se) in Canton (Jaynestown), and with the Registered Companions and their lineage/training. Similar with the Tam household.
Sexism, yes. Racism, sorry, didn't see it.

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Saturday, September 13, 2008 2:31 AM

LURKALOT


Actually I never mentioned the term "Racism" once because I don't that the shows are racist If they were then I wouldn't (in every comment I have made) say that the shows are excellent.

What I was stating was that there was definitely more scope for using "coloured" characters than actually happened. I like Gina's character but as I said Early or "the believer" would have made more interesting team members than Jane (who I find very funny). Actually come to think about it Jane with Early would be fun!

Also what I was opining was that besides Gina the only other black characters were mentally limited in some ways, one possibly by psychosis the other by indoctrination.

It seems that people seem not to be able to separate the the race issue from the issue of "Racism" . I think that in the UK this distinction is recognised. In one very big country I can think of at the moment, they definitely have a problem with these types of distinctions.

Saying that on an admittedly limited run there was more scope for coloured characters does not mean that the show was racist!

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Saturday, September 13, 2008 5:12 AM

RALLEM


I lent one of my two copies of Firefly to my Councilor at the Veterans Affairs after my last meeting with her and a Psychologist who is a huge fan of Firefly. Yesterday I went for a brief walk during one of my break periods and on the way back to my work area I saw my Councilor and we began discussing the show. My Councilor said that she was about half way through the series and was really getting into the show after getting used to the characters, and then she asked me if I were in a hurry to get the DVDs back, because the Doctor who is a fan of Firefly is also her Boss, and he said to her that the first episode which I think he was referring to Serenity has incredible insight on Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. (PTSD) My Councilor said to me that he said he would like to discuss this issue with her, and then I think she said that he told her he was thinking of making all of the Doctors and Councilors at the V.A watch that episode so it could be studied and discussed. I won’t say where this V.A. is because I don’t want to get anyone in trouble especially myself, but I will say that I think I’ve let people know where I live before and the V.A. where I work is the National Center for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. I watched the fourth DVD Yesterday and am going back to work tomorrow to cover my coworker so I think that I will watch Serenity then and try to discover what the Doctor at the V.A. was talking about.



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Saturday, September 13, 2008 5:26 AM

SHINYSAHARA


he said to her that the first episode which I think he was referring to Serenity has incredible insight on Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. (PTSD) My Councilor said to me that he said he would like to discuss this issue with her, and then I think she said that he told her he was thinking of making all of the Doctors and Councilors at the V.A watch that episode so it could be studied and discussed.

Will you come back and tell us what they said? I'm getting my Master's in Social Work with a focus in PTSD and disaster recovery, and so I would be VERY interested! Thanks!

And getting back to the topic of the thread, I don't know if someone pointed this out already, but... So Saffron has a poison or somethin' mixed into her gloss so that when she kisses people, they're knocked out, you know, the Goodnight Kiss, I think it was. How come she doesn't poison herself with it? Even when one has lip gloss on, it's still hard not to lick one's lips anyway, I think it's even unconscious. So she would have licked it herself, and would have knocked herself out.
I know that it wouldn't have helped the story, but still.


"Your mouth is talking. You might want to look into that."

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Saturday, September 13, 2008 5:27 AM

SHINYSAHARA


From Rallem post:
"...he said to her that the first episode which I think he was referring to Serenity has incredible insight on Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. (PTSD) My Councilor said to me that he said he would like to discuss this issue with her, and then I think she said that he told her he was thinking of making all of the Doctors and Councilors at the V.A watch that episode so it could be studied and discussed..."

Will you come back and tell us what they said? I'm getting my Master's in Social Work with a focus in PTSD and disaster recovery, and so I would be VERY interested! Thanks!

And getting back to the topic of the thread, I don't know if someone pointed this out already, but... So Saffron has a poison or somethin' mixed into her gloss so that when she kisses people, they're knocked out, you know, the Goodnight Kiss, I think it was. How come she doesn't poison herself with it? Even when one has lip gloss on, it's still hard not to lick one's lips anyway, I think it's even unconscious. So she would have licked it herself, and would have knocked herself out.
I know that it wouldn't have helped the story, but still.


"Your mouth is talking. You might want to look into that."

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Saturday, September 13, 2008 5:32 AM

RALLEM


Quote:

Originally posted by Lurkalot:

Also what I was opining was that besides Gina the only other black characters were mentally limited in some ways, one possibly by psychosis the other by indoctrination.

B]



You mentioned that besides Gina the only two other characters of color were mentally limited in some way, with one being by a possible psychosis and the other by indoctrination, and I have to agree and disagree with you here. With Jubal Early I think it was clear that he was limited with a psychosis, but I think it was also that psychosis which helped enable him in a similar way that River’s helps her. With Shepard Book I don’t believe that he was mentally limited by his indoctrination in any way out of the ordinary, and he may have physically limited, but if so that was his choice.

I was thinking about the show Gilligan’s Island where the entire basis of the show was that each of the seven characters was a representation of one of the seven deadly sins, and I am trying to understand if there is any similar concept for the characters of Firefly. I think that if there is it will be entirely unintentional by Joss though because in the extras of the fourth DVD I believe Joss said that he was originally going to have five characters living on Serenity but then later on decided to up that number to nine because of lessons learned from Angel.




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Saturday, September 13, 2008 5:37 AM

RALLEM


Quote:

Originally posted by ShinySahara:
From Rallem post:
"...he said to her that the first episode which I think he was referring to Serenity has incredible insight on Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. (PTSD) My Councilor said to me that he said he would like to discuss this issue with her, and then I think she said that he told her he was thinking of making all of the Doctors and Councilors at the V.A watch that episode so it could be studied and discussed..."

Will you come back and tell us what they said? I'm getting my Master's in Social Work with a focus in PTSD and disaster recovery, and so I would be VERY interested! Thanks!

And getting back to the topic of the thread, I don't know if someone pointed this out already, but... So Saffron has a poison or somethin' mixed into her gloss so that when she kisses people, they're knocked out, you know, the Goodnight Kiss, I think it was. How come she doesn't poison herself with it? Even when one has lip gloss on, it's still hard not to lick one's lips anyway, I think it's even unconscious. So she would have licked it herself, and would have knocked herself out.
I know that it wouldn't have helped the story, but still.


"Your mouth is talking. You might want to look into that."



Could the answer be revealed in the movie "The Princess Bride," where Westley put the poison in both drinks and drank his with the Italian and lived because he became largely immune to that poison through limited exposure?



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Saturday, September 13, 2008 11:03 PM

LURKALOT


Quote:

Originally posted by rallem:
You mentioned that besides Gina the only two other characters of color were mentally limited in some way, with one being by a possible psychosis and the other by indoctrination, and I have to agree and disagree with you here. With Jubal Early I think it was clear that he was limited with a psychosis, but I think it was also that psychosis which helped enable him in a similar way that River’s helps her. With Shepard Book I don’t believe that he was mentally limited by his indoctrination in any way out of the ordinary, and he may have physically limited, but if so that was his choice.


You know for some reason I keep ignoring Shephard Book. He is/was a potentially great character now deceased. Which kind of brings me back to where I was

I think the term "enable him" is correct but maybe not in the way you are thinking. I kind of think of Early and the Believer were both agents of the system. Maybe I am over thinking this

The W brothers deliberately made their agents in the Matrix white and many of the inhabitants of Zion as coloured. Don't know where that came from and is probably totally irrelevant.

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Sunday, September 14, 2008 10:13 AM

RALLEM


I think Book may have been the potentially most explosive and dynamic character on the show because he was who he said he was and so much more. I was not too disapointed with his loss in Serenity because he had so much of a mysterious past that even dead Ron Glass could be back to do lots of background episodes if they ever were made. I was thinking besides Zoey, the only two other characters of color in this series were Shepard Book and Jubal Early, and when Jubal showed up he was the only person to know that Shapard Book wasn't a shepard. Was it his psychosis which gave him this knowledge, (which I doubt) or did the two have past dealings with each other?



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Sunday, September 14, 2008 12:47 PM

NBZ


It may be that Early had been investigating the crew for quite a while, generating profiles etc etc.

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Sunday, September 14, 2008 1:07 PM

RALLEM


True, or there may have been a history.



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Sunday, September 14, 2008 4:48 PM

RALLEM


Quote:

Originally posted by ShinySahara:
he said to her that the first episode which I think he was referring to Serenity has incredible insight on Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. (PTSD) My Councilor said to me that he said he would like to discuss this issue with her, and then I think she said that he told her he was thinking of making all of the Doctors and Councilors at the V.A watch that episode so it could be studied and discussed.

Will you come back and tell us what they said? I'm getting my Master's in Social Work with a focus in PTSD and disaster recovery, and so I would be VERY interested! Thanks!

And getting back to the topic of the thread, I don't know if someone pointed this out already, but... So Saffron has a poison or somethin' mixed into her gloss so that when she kisses people, they're knocked out, you know, the Goodnight Kiss, I think it was. How come she doesn't poison herself with it? Even when one has lip gloss on, it's still hard not to lick one's lips anyway, I think it's even unconscious. So she would have licked it herself, and would have knocked herself out.
I know that it wouldn't have helped the story, but still.


"Your mouth is talking. You might want to look into that."



I was talking to another coworker whom I lent one of my Firefly DVD sets and discussed the PTSD issue with and Bob said that it probably is in the beginning with Bender who was unable to take any action and was frozen with fear. Bob then mentioned the same thing may have been responsible in Saving Private Ryan when the interpreter froze while is teammate was being killed in the tower by the German Trooper, and I said it is possible but I always thought of that as cowardice. I then told Bob that Nathan Fillion was in Saving Private Ryan, and he understood that he was one of the wrong Private Ryans.



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Monday, September 15, 2008 1:15 AM

LURKALOT


Quote:

Originally posted by rallem:
I think Book may have been the potentially most explosive and dynamic character on the show because he was who he said he was and so much more. I was not too disapointed with his loss in Serenity because he had so much of a mysterious past that even dead Ron Glass could be back to do lots of background episodes if they ever were made.


That would be interesting. Book doesn't seem to have any martial training as Early took him out way to easy.

Early vs the Believer. Now thats a fight I would want to see. Now if they could some how fit Jet Li (Chinese not US films version of him) into that fight somehow that would be stunning .

Hey, actually that could almost work after all China is one of the remaining super powers in this verse. (didn't know that until recently)

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Monday, September 15, 2008 4:13 AM

RALLEM


Quote:

Originally posted by Lurkalot:
Quote:

Originally posted by rallem:
I think Book may have been the potentially most explosive and dynamic character on the show because he was who he said he was and so much more. I was not too disapointed with his loss in Serenity because he had so much of a mysterious past that even dead Ron Glass could be back to do lots of background episodes if they ever were made.


That would be interesting. Book doesn't seem to have any martial training as Early took him out way to easy.

Early vs the Believer. Now thats a fight I would want to see. Now if they could some how fit Jet Li (Chinese not US films version of him) into that fight somehow that would be stunning .

Hey, actually that could almost work after all China is one of the remaining super powers in this verse. (didn't know that until recently)



I think in the fight between Early and Book, it was simply a case of surprise with overwhelming force, which leads to my thinking that Maybe Early had some prior knowledge with Book. I think if Early could launch that same attack on anyone else in the ship though, they would have gone down just as fast. jmho



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Tuesday, September 16, 2008 3:00 PM

RALLEM


Why Saffron was not affected by the poison on her lips was explained in the episode when Simon said that she placed the poison on a seal.



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Saturday, September 20, 2008 2:50 PM

DRAGINSPLEEN


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
I always liked in War Stories when Inara shows her client out, Jayne says "I'll be in my bunk" and Zoe comes out with "Jayne, grab your weapon". However, the script makes it clear this is to be obvious (to everybody but Jayne), so we can't really call it subtle.

Also, int the pilot, I've been mostly puzzled when at the end, Mal says to Simon that, among other things, he ain't weak, and that ain't nothing - I didn't see how he would be referring to Simon's physical strength, or strong doctoring skills, or strong fighting ability, but I didn't conjure a whole lot about it. Now it dawns on me that Mal was probably referring to Simon's rescuing River, defying the Alliance, saving an innocent - that is what Mal sees as strength, and that perhaps Simon is human enough, despite his upbringing and social status, that he and Mal can work out the sharing of mutual space for a while.



I know this response is for a post from almost a year ago, but I had to. I just rewatched the Pilot a few nights ago(for the 4,378th time ;P), and that thought hit me too, in regards to Mal viewing Simon as 'not weak' by the end of the episode, here are my thoughts...: Simon took two tremendous punches from the Captain in that episode alone. Not only was Simon NOT knocked unconcious, nor seriously bloodied, he had nary a tear in his eye. Mal found out that Simon can take one hell of a punch, and get right back up again! Kudos to the observation on inner strength as well, Simon is very strong and heroic in that respect too! I'm sure all of it factored in to Mal's growing respect for him. I just love the fact that Simon actually gets to finally deck Mal back on the movie! Paybacks are hell, ain't they?

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Tuesday, September 23, 2008 11:50 AM

DRAGINSPLEEN


I don't know if this has been posted before, but something interesting that I've found: River is ripping into some Blue Sun labeled packages with extreme predjudice on "Shindig", and ranting about how 'They're the ones who take you', 'they're the ones who reach in and do it..' Then on "Ariel", she up and slashes Jayne's chest right across the Blue Sun logo on the front of his shirt! It seems to show less anger at Jayne, and more anger towards the Blue Sun Corp., doesn't it? Apologies if this has been observed already :), I thought it was a pretty dang neat connection between the two!
Also, the 'blurring of the image' to indicate a certain aspect of what Inara's client was doing on "Serenity" (pilot), according to Joss's commentary..., ..ahem, yeah.. the image kinda blurred on "Objects in Space" when River was observing Wash and Zoe making out up on the bridge.., then River *stumbles* around the corner to go to the cargo bay. Yeah, wheww, sorry... dirty minded? Me..? Nahh! I'll be in my bunk. :P

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Friday, September 26, 2008 8:01 AM

SHINYSAHARA


Quote:

Originally posted by rallem:
"Why Saffron was not affected by the poison on her lips was explained in the episode when Simon said that she placed the poison on a seal."


But the seal was on her lips, wasn't it? I like the theory that she had built up a tolerance for it, like in Princess Bride. That is totally in keeping with her character.



"Your mouth is talking. You might want to look to that."

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Monday, September 29, 2008 3:17 AM

SHINYSAHARA


And another thing...I was watching the BDM this weekend, and at the very beginning of it, when Mal is listening watching a video in Inara's shuttle.
Kaylee and Inara are talking and walking about, and then there's one part that's focused on River (whose in there with them) standing next to the bed. She bends over at the waist and smells the bed.
Smells the bed. That killed me. It was so matter-of-fact and investigative, you know?



"Your mouth is talking. You might want to look to that."

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Saturday, October 11, 2008 1:00 PM

DRAGINSPLEEN


Got a couple real quick observations, first is one that was touched on previously about Mal bowing... The part that was excluded from The Train Job ep. but was in the script had Mal mistakenly curtsy as Simon was introducing River. As a follow up in Shindig during the dance with Inara, Mal begins a cursty at the start of the dance, catches himself, then bows instead :P (I love it!)
A second little one I noticed, though it was probably pretty obvious apart from the fact that I have recurring brain-farts: Jayne's busy stealing Simon and River's stuff while they're busy trying to get themselves 'lit on fire', in Safe, right? At the end of the episode, River steals Jayne's breadroll when they're having dinner. She knew what he did, and it was payback time! Pretty cool moment I hadn't noticed before. :D

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Sunday, October 19, 2008 11:19 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by DraginSpleen:
Got a couple real quick observations, first is one that was touched on previously about Mal bowing... The part that was excluded from The Train Job ep. but was in the script had Mal mistakenly curtsy as Simon was introducing River. As a follow up in Shindig during the dance with Inara, Mal begins a cursty at the start of the dance, catches himself, then bows instead :P (I love it!)
A second little one I noticed, though it was probably pretty obvious apart from the fact that I have recurring brain-farts: Jayne's busy stealing Simon and River's stuff while they're busy trying to get themselves 'lit on fire', in Safe, right? At the end of the episode, River steals Jayne's breadroll when they're having dinner. She knew what he did, and it was payback time! Pretty cool moment I hadn't noticed before. :D



Remember that after the deleted scene with River, Mal does bow in Inara's shuttle when leaving.

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Sunday, October 19, 2008 11:25 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by DraginSpleen:
Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
I always liked in War Stories when Inara shows her client out, Jayne says "I'll be in my bunk" and Zoe comes out with "Jayne, grab your weapon". However, the script makes it clear this is to be obvious (to everybody but Jayne), so we can't really call it subtle.

Also, int the pilot, I've been mostly puzzled when at the end, Mal says to Simon that, among other things, he ain't weak, and that ain't nothing - I didn't see how he would be referring to Simon's physical strength, or strong doctoring skills, or strong fighting ability, but I didn't conjure a whole lot about it. Now it dawns on me that Mal was probably referring to Simon's rescuing River, defying the Alliance, saving an innocent - that is what Mal sees as strength, and that perhaps Simon is human enough, despite his upbringing and social status, that he and Mal can work out the sharing of mutual space for a while.



I know this response is for a post from almost a year ago, but I had to. I just rewatched the Pilot a few nights ago(for the 4,378th time ;P), and that thought hit me too, in regards to Mal viewing Simon as 'not weak' by the end of the episode, here are my thoughts...: Simon took two tremendous punches from the Captain in that episode alone. Not only was Simon NOT knocked unconcious, nor seriously bloodied, he had nary a tear in his eye. Mal found out that Simon can take one hell of a punch, and get right back up again! Kudos to the observation on inner strength as well, Simon is very strong and heroic in that respect too! I'm sure all of it factored in to Mal's growing respect for him. I just love the fact that Simon actually gets to finally deck Mal back on the movie! Paybacks are hell, ain't they?



I really, really don't think it has to do with Mal's consideration of Simon's physical strength in any way. Simon's resilience as a factor of how much he'll put up with to defend and protect River, THAT is what Mal considers justification of Simon's value to Serenity. That is the only strength Mal takes to heart. That gumption is what Mal would have valued in Serenity Valley, and he values it on Serenity.
IMO anyway.

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Friday, November 21, 2008 2:59 PM

SCHISM


Dunno if this has been mentioned, but in the movie, after they discover Miranda, River is having a mild mental breakdown.
The camera is performing this circular make-you-dizzy thing that I guess is trying to excentuate the confusion.
It's actually quite clever, cos you realize it's one very long take they had to do.
Jayne steps in and agrees with her.

"They're all dead. Everyone here died for no reason."

And the moment he says that, the camera stops spinning.....and lands directly on Wash.

In retrospect I find that quite foreboding.


I'm still pissed off at his death. Not that he died...hell I love the impact of a good death...but rather their poor treatment of it. It's all rather incidental. But perhaps that was the point - no time to grieve, RUN!

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Monday, November 24, 2008 4:42 PM

JAYNEBRO


I watched "The Message" recently and from the commentary and interviews we know this was the last episode to air. The music at the end when they give Tracy to his family is also a farewell to the show. As this is all going, we see Kaylee take Simon's hand. I wonder if this is Joss' way of saying they get together.

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Friday, December 19, 2008 4:12 AM

MOONDOG


One subtle detail that caught my eye was in the BDM when, after Mal's "St. Crispan's day speech" Jayne takes a drink and passes the bottle across to Simon who also takes a drink. To me He is saying "I don't care who you are, we're all in this together."
Unfortunately (I think) my strange, convoluted and perverse mind flashed on an old Bill Cosby monologue entitled "Revenge" where he says "I let Jr. Barnes think I was his best friend. I even let him drink from my orange soda bottle with out wiping the top off." Maybe that's why they locked me up and won't allow me anything sharper than color crayons to write with. (I eat them--the purple ones taste best) Oops, gotta go--here comes the man with my meds.

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Friday, December 19, 2008 7:29 AM

BYTEMITE


In response to Jubal Early taking out Book: I think Book does have hand to hand combat training. Look how he takes out the Fed in the pilot episode, and remember the weirded out look Jayne gives him? Jubal just got the drop on him... literally.

Also, I read in the RPG handbook that Mal didn't pay more than 2,500 credits for Serenity... Of course, we don't know how that translates to our systems of currency. I kind of think core credits might be like yen, in that 1 yen is like a penny in US dollars, and that platinum used on the rim is more like a dollar. When the crew is paid in platinum, it's always a seemingly little amount compared to what their goods are said to be worth. Like in the pilot, when they're paid for the food stuffs, it's supposed to be really valuable, but they seem just fine with the tiny pouch with a little coin in it that they're given.

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Chronological Order of Episodes.
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The Unmade Episodes
Sun, June 12, 2022 14:39 - 1 posts
Episode sequence?
Wed, February 16, 2022 00:58 - 9 posts
I have lost all faith in the Oscars!
Wed, December 22, 2021 08:46 - 37 posts
Questions about Sound in Space
Mon, November 29, 2021 20:47 - 41 posts
Itinerary for Serenity during the 9 months of Firefly/Serenity.
Thu, June 20, 2019 20:39 - 21 posts
Map of the Verse discussion
Tue, June 4, 2019 20:51 - 170 posts
The Savant Crew
Wed, May 15, 2019 13:47 - 32 posts
Who Was Your Favorite Friend of Our BDH?
Wed, April 24, 2019 00:26 - 3 posts

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