FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

.... Dressed Like A Gorram Doll

POSTED BY: WYTCHCROFT
UPDATED: Thursday, December 13, 2007 00:44
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Wednesday, November 21, 2007 12:23 AM

WYTCHCROFT


SpaceAnjl somewhat presciently drew attention to Rivers utterance in Safe about hating being dressed like a gorram doll. It’s in the Tam family threads somewhere. Seems natural, given the context, that River is talking of Gabriel or Regan – but what if she aint? What, if she had – prior to rescue – already been used as an active infiltrating agent??? Nikita style…. And in line with the upcoming DOLLhouse show. The phrase does sound like foreshadowing now…

Any thoughts???

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Wednesday, November 21, 2007 1:09 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by wytchcroft:
SpaceAnjl somewhat presciently drew attention to Rivers utterance in Safe about hating being dressed like a gorram doll. It’s in the Tam family threads somewhere. Seems natural, given the context, that River is talking of Gabriel or Regan – but what if she aint? What, if she had – prior to rescue – already been used as an active infiltrating agent??? Nikita style…. And in line with the upcoming DOLLhouse show. The phrase does sound like foreshadowing now…

Any thoughts???



Taken from here: http://firefly.shriftweb.org/scripts/107.txt

RIVER
(collapses onto couch)
No! No, I don't wanna go back to the...

SIMON
It's okay. It --

RIVER
It's not okay!
(beat)
You can't just dig into me, shove twenty
needles in my eyes and ask me what I see!

SIMON
I... we won't go in. Look.
(shuts infirmary doors)
No test today.

RIVER
No rutting tests? Stupid son of a bitch,
dress me up like a gorramn doll!

SIMON
No tests, no shots...
(beat)
I'm, uh, I'm just gonna give you a smoother
that'll...

River stands, takes Simon's case of medical supplies, and tosses it.

SIMON
River!



She's reacting to what we now know happened to her and to Simon, at the same time. Not quite.. there.

Could be she is referring to her current situation, having to wear Kaylee's colorful clothes without having much choice in the matter.

She's not exactly rational in that moment, so her anger doesn't have to be directed strictly at factual wrong-doings but could also be about the situation that isn't necessarily the fault of anyone on board.



I never thought it was directed at her parents actually. From all we know, they supported River's own desire to learn more, let her dance, let her and Simon live in a silly in-joke-world... They may suck at saving their kids, but nothing suggests that they "dressed her up as a doll" or forced her to be something she wasn't.

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Wednesday, November 21, 2007 7:57 AM

MERRYK


I always wondered about that scene. She seems to be reacting to Simon wanting to give her medicine or do some kind of test, but we don't really know. As he says later, she hates the infirmary because it reminds her of the Academy, so her irrational reaction isn't out of the blue. She seems to be accusing him of doing just what Doctor Mathias did, shoving needles into her and asking what she sees. Simon's been trying to figure out what's wrong with her, but she's probably frustrated because it's similar to what happened in the Academy. And then she follows that accusation up with the "gorram doll" part, which I think is only directed at Simon and his choice of clothes. Where do those come from, anyway? And if you watch his reaction to this, it's different than what he gives when she's reacting in fear to something. I think he realizes she's overreacting to what he's doing out of frustration, not some bad memory or random paraniod fear, which is why he says it's "just a bad day" to Mal. River is just in a bad mood, even if brought on by paranoia, and acts out in her temper, throwing in a last jab about her clothes (she is female after all).

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Wednesday, November 21, 2007 8:09 AM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:

I never thought it was directed at her parents actually. From all we know, they supported River's own desire to learn more, let her dance, let her and Simon live in a silly in-joke-world... They may suck at saving their kids, but nothing suggests that they "dressed her up as a doll" or forced her to be something she wasn't.



Yeah, dressing her up like a doll, that's just, you know that's not something parents do. I mean, on some planets, but only pretty bad ones.

River is clearly triggered by the needles, no doubt experiencinng serious flashbacks to her time at the Academy, when they were doing all sorts of experiments on her. "You can't just dig into me, shove twenty needles in my eyes and ask me what I see!" I believe is directed most immediately at Dr. Mathias. Typical case of transference, evinced most clearly when reality is coming back to her: (to Mal): "You're not him?"

As for the "gorram doll", I always thought she said: "Gorham doll", after the famous Gorham dolls. Probably not, though; but I wouldn't be surprised if Joss just made yet another clever pun there.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Wednesday, November 21, 2007 8:34 PM

SCHOONER


I sort of connected it with the "Key members of Parliament have observed the subject" line from the BDM. Dr. Matthias, being the obnoxious bastard he is in the film, would have overdone the display to show just how clever he is. I can easily see him pulling a stage-mom type fit getting his star pupil ready to go before the judges.

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Friday, November 23, 2007 11:52 PM

WYTCHCROFT


so - still a lot of possibiities left open for exploration...:)

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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 8:53 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


A darker shade here, so move on if you wish...



Part of what Joss said about Dollhouse was that she can be programmed to be a sex slave or romantic partner, etc.
River at the academy is under control of some pretty sadistic mind freaks, and she is a young nubile girl, after all.
River's experience in the academy may have been either she has to do tests(sticking needles in her) all day, or on non-test days somebody has selected her from "the Dollhouse" as a plaything, and she will be dressed up as a gorram doll and subjected to sexual predatory perversions. Although she is a weapon, the triggers/controls they've embedded in her will keep her in the correct mode, and under control. Perhaps it could have been those same members of Parialment who chose to avail themselves of her nubile qualities.
To her, with all these subliminal code words and controls, she must feel like she has no self-will, because she is suddenly a weapon, or a submissive plaything, or submissively enduring the needles and tests. She can't object effectively, so these things just "happen to her" because of the subliminal controls, and after years of this, it must seem to be just normal to her, other than what she can remember of her life with Simon - the parent Tams being hardly substantial.
This has no basis in canon that I've seen, just the way her series of reactions comes out.
Alos, not listed above, River's next line, looking at Mal, is "you're not him?"

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Wednesday, December 12, 2007 11:37 PM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

A darker shade here, so move on if you wish...

Part of what Joss said about Dollhouse was that she can be programmed to be a sex slave or romantic partner, etc.
River at the academy is under control of some pretty sadistic mind freaks, and she is a young nubile girl, after all.
River's experience in the academy may have been either she has to do tests(sticking needles in her) all day, or on non-test days somebody has selected her from "the Dollhouse" as a plaything, and she will be dressed up as a gorram doll and subjected to sexual predatory perversions. Although she is a weapon, the triggers/controls they've embedded in her will keep her in the correct mode, and under control. Perhaps it could have been those same members of Parialment who chose to avail themselves of her nubile qualities.
To her, with all these subliminal code words and controls, she must feel like she has no self-will, because she is suddenly a weapon, or a submissive plaything, or submissively enduring the needles and tests. She can't object effectively, so these things just "happen to her" because of the subliminal controls, and after years of this, it must seem to be just normal to her, other than what she can remember of her life with Simon - the parent Tams being hardly substantial.


There's such a thing as 'too subtle'. :) Sorry to say, but I don't agree on any particular point. Dunno why exactly, but I think it simply has no basis in reality at all.

And while we're on the subject, I also don't subscribe to the idea that Kaylee was raped. Both Kaylee and River exhibit no psychological signs of sexual traumata. Especially Kaylee is entirely open about sexuality (not compulsive or anything; simply having no hang-ups about it). In general, people who suffered some sort of sexual abuse would, at the very least, be triggered when the subject of sex came up or references were made to it. Kaylee has none of that. In OiS she talks having done it with a 14-year old guy when she was a teenager herself (she thought he was older), and there's nothing to indicate that she traversed anything but a healthy sexual timeline, so to speak.

And back to River, what sparse moments refer to her budding sexuality (primarily also in OiS) indicate the same: she's absolutely not triggered when she senses Zoe and Wash's intimacy; and in the "no touching" scene you can witness her mind making the connection with sexuality, but it's an entirely benign realization -- no violent jolting back.

Just to be clear, I ain't saying neither of them had unpleasant sexual experiences (I mean, who can ever tell these things for certain?); but I'm saying that, from the series, I can find absolutely nothing to support that they had.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Thursday, December 13, 2007 12:44 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


I keep forgetting to point out that gorramn is spelled gorramn, a contraction of God damn.

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