FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Jaynestown

POSTED BY: ASORTAFAIRYTALE
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 06:16
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Tuesday, August 29, 2006 4:59 PM

ASORTAFAIRYTALE


Okay so I was watching this one again, and this part stood out: (I'm just copying from the script that I got from average-bear.com)

Quote:

STITCH
Hey there, Jayne. Thought I'd make ya
watch while I butcher me one a' your
boys.

Jayne looks down at Simon. He covers for him.

JAYNE
Ain't one a mine, Stitch...



I kinda thought this was weird because after all, Jayne has never really liked Simon, why should he be covering for him? Anyways, sorry if this has been discussed before, but it was just confusing me.

------

We're all just floating...

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Tuesday, August 29, 2006 5:39 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


He never really liked him, but he didn't hate him enough to want to see him butchered. Plus Mal was there, and was not going to just stay out of it if Simon was going to be killed.
Jayne knew that he could handle Stitch, and also that the beef was really with him. sometimes, even Jayne has a code of honor.
And, really, he was being honest. Jayne wasn't the Captain, Simon wasn't one of his.


Better than a thousand hollow words, is one word that brings peace. - Gautama Siddharta

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Thursday, August 31, 2006 1:18 PM

TRAVELER


I notice Jayne does have code. He seems to protect people who are are in need, at times. When he wanted to trade Vera for Saffron, he was sincere in his feelings about her. I don't completely understand his code. But it does surface from time to time. "Shoulda, Coulda, Woulda", that is Jayne.


Traveler

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Tuesday, October 24, 2006 9:39 AM

CANTER


I think Jayne is a hero, deep deep deep down, and sometimes it surfaces.

Jayne might not like Simon or River, but at that stage (in Jaynestown) they were in essence part of his crew.

I also believe that the only reason he turned traitor in Ariel, was because he lost his temper. He got pushed, and pushed back. (After getting stabbed a bit)



Burn the land and boil the sea...

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Tuesday, October 24, 2006 10:00 AM

PURPLEBELLY


Jayne is just trying to wrong-foot Stitch. Any doubt placed in Stitch's mind might make him hesitate in the action to come. That the subject is Simon is irrelevant. Jayne, as always, is thinking of Jayne.

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Tuesday, October 24, 2006 11:34 AM

HUGHFF


Chicken and egg. Would Jayne have sold out River if she hadn't slashed him? Would she have cut him up if she hadn't known he was about to turn her in?

www.cpfc.org - my life
www.nbhs.school.nz - my work

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Tuesday, October 24, 2006 1:01 PM

MINIME


It didn't cost Jayne anything to make deny that Simon was one of 'his' - if it had, say, come down to a choice between Stitch going after Jayne and going after Simon, it may have been a different story.
Also, I've always kind of seen it as Jayne's way of saying to Simon - you're not one of us, and if I had my way you never would be.
In the nicest possible Jayne way, of course.

Minime

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Tuesday, October 24, 2006 1:16 PM

STEVESHURTLEFF


Defending/covering for Simon would have been much easier to understand if it had happened after Ariel rather than before, since with Mal present, Jayne wouldn't have dared turn on Simon (again) at that point.

But, since it was before, it does show that he has some honor, and maybe even a sliver of selflessness.

Or perhaps he just wanted to fight Stitch.

Like Inara said, NOBODY is comfortable with knowing what Jayne is thinking.

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 2:42 PM

TRAVELER


You have a good point PurpleBelly. Stitch had to put some time into rehashing Simon. Maybe only a moment, but a moment is all Jayne needs. I still think Jayne has a code, but what that is entirely, I'm not sure. Some people have brought up the fact that Jayne may have helped Dobson escape in the first episode. But I'm inclined to believe him when he tells Mal the money wasn't good enough. So if the money had been good enough? So Jayne admits he would trade sides for the right price.

I have noticed Jayne has a good side. He teases Kaylee at the dinner table, but I don't think he understands he has gone to far until Mal tells him to leave the table. And even though he chases women, I noticed in "Heart of Gold" he stayed with one woman and treated her with respect.

So I feel Jayne learned his morality on the street. A bad street. During his time on Serenity he developes. As I have said before, it may take a wrench to his skull, he does progress.

Thanks for letting me ramble again. I thought this thread was dead. And here I get a notice of a reply after a couple of months.

So I think PurpleBelly is correct about Jayne not being all that concerned about Simon as he is about finding away to get to Stitch.




Traveler

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Thursday, October 26, 2006 1:03 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Quote:

Originally posted by hughff:
Chicken and egg. Would Jayne have sold out River if she hadn't slashed him? Would she have cut him up if she hadn't known he was about to turn her in?


She cut his shirt, and the Blue Sun logo on it. He just happened to be under the sirt, so he got a little stabbed. She wasn't going after Jayne, she was going after Blue Sun (He looks better in red).

We will not go quietly into the night
We will not give in without a Big Damn Fight
We are Browncoats, and we know we are right
We will rage, rage against the dying of our engine light!

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Thursday, October 26, 2006 7:21 AM

MRSU


According to the script of Jaynestown, Jayne WAS covering for Simon at that moment.
And why not? It wouldn't cost him anything one way or another. And, much more importantly, Mal and Kaylee stood right next to him. They wouldn't take it kindly if Jayne betrayed Simon in front of their very eyes. Jayne would have realized that, so he picked a choice more convenient for him.

We could contrast it with how Simon was covering for Jayne couple of minutes ago, at a risk to his own life and with no one watching him. And Simon not liking Jayne either. It's just a code of conduct if you're on the same team which everyone in the 'Verse knew. Jayne knew it too, he didn't always followed it but he knew that folks wouldn't look kindly on somebody's breaking it, so he didn't break it in front of Mal.

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Thursday, October 26, 2006 10:35 AM

HUGHFF


Quote:

Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Quote:

Originally posted by hughff:
Chicken and egg. Would Jayne have sold out River if she hadn't slashed him? Would she have cut him up if she hadn't known he was about to turn her in?


She cut his shirt, and the Blue Sun logo on it. He just happened to be under the sirt, so he got a little stabbed. She wasn't going after Jayne, she was going after Blue Sun (He looks better in red).



You reckon? I don't.

www.cpfc.org - my life
www.nbhs.school.nz - my work

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Thursday, October 26, 2006 8:44 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


I don't just reckon, it's in the transcripts, and I've heard the same impression from many people, not to mention how often River and Blue Sun is talked about by Joss, the implication being that they were involved in what was done to her and she hated them. There were also a few things said about their food being laced with drugs, and how they were supposed to be heavily involved in the Miranda scandal but Joss couldn't work it into the movie and have it make sense.
Slashing Jayne wasn't the only thing that happened, either. River also freaked out at the cans and crackers stamped with the Blue Sun logo. Joss was trying to give the subtle impression that River really hated Blue Sun so that the conspiracy storyline could unfold. We never got to see it, though. At least, not at all in full.

We will not go quietly into the night
We will not give in without a Big Damn Fight
We are Browncoats, and we know we are right
We will rage, rage against the dying of our engine light!

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Thursday, October 26, 2006 9:35 PM

PURPLEBELLY


Returning to Jaynestown. Let's not forget that this was a scipt produced fairly quickly in response to the Network's initial rejection of Shindig and Safe, demanding a more light-hearted show. Edlund appears to have reached for another incarnation of his Tick/Moth-Boy super-duo (from the costume evidence), and so the Jayne/Simon relationship on the page may have been influenced by that but ameliorated by actors and others at production and post-production stages.
As usual, we're on thin ice with such a small amount of source material, especially with a character that appears to have moved considerably from the original conception; I know I'm almost alone in not liking what Baldwin does with this role.

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Thursday, October 26, 2006 11:11 PM

RAINSTICK


maybe Jayne behaves more honorably or selflessly in the situation because he is in a very "hero-type" mood at that moment. he has just held the first half of his speech in front of his adoring masses and in the shadow of his own statue. so maybe he feels he has to play up to his reputation.
on a side note: the few words Jayne says after killing Stitch are about the most emotional moment in the whole series. Jayne drops his heroic facade and shows what he really is: "There's no people like that, there's just people like me."
that's the most self-reflective Jayne will ever get because the death of this one mudder boy really affects him.

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Friday, October 27, 2006 4:33 AM

MRSU


About River slashing Jayne - there was some interview with Joss (or a convention transcript) where he was asked, who/waht River slashed - Jayne or Blue Sun logo?
He said - both.

And the average viewer, not a fan sitting on fan forums, is supposed to pick up the more obvious meaning first - Jayne was getting on River's nerves by picking on Simon, and she couldn't control her reactions. Blue Sun is the additional motive which can be picked up by an extra attentive viewer as a bonus. Most people who just watch the show and don't discuss it online with other fans never pick that other meaning, and are fine with the first one.

But I agree with Joss - it's both. She wouldn't have slashed him if he was just sitting there in a Blue Sun shirt with his mouth shut (she saw him in this shirt before, after all). And she wouldn't have slashed him if he was in some other shirt but still being an ***hole. She would maybe make a less dramatic gesture in that case. Blue Sun was like a trigger.

And coming back to Jaynestown, again: I still can't see how Jayne could have given up Simon to Stitch in front of Mal and be able to get away with that, or could've not realize that he won't be able to get away with that.

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Monday, October 30, 2006 4:59 PM

ROCKYSOAP


It was strange to me to read this, because that scene always made so much sense to me. First of all, let me ask this: is this an "official" script, or just someone transcribing the show? I never saw it as Jayne covering for him, or being kind or noble at all. He was just being blunt. His disowned Simon because he disowns Simon. Jayne was showing contempt for both Stitch and Simon in one go.

If this was indeed official and Jayne was covering for Simon, that changes things, but I guess it still kind of makes sense to me. Jayne is in a very strange position in this episode, and it brings out a different side of him. He's more human. He realizes he is capable of having an impact on people. This could create a strong (though shortlived) sense of right and wrong, and a desire to do good instead of just being selfish.

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Monday, October 30, 2006 5:26 PM

WHIMSICALNBRAINPAN


Jayne is a bit of an enigma isn't he. It never felt to me that Jayne was covering for Simon in that scene, just that he was being honest as Simon wasn't one of his boys. Also it seems to me that Jayne felt that what was going on was between Stitch and himself and had nothing to do with Simon. While Jayne isn't the typical "hero" I don't think he would make someone else pay for something he had done. He does have some strange sense of honor although it is a bit fluid at times.

"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." http://whimsicalnbrainpan.blogspot.com/

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Tuesday, October 31, 2006 4:26 PM

TRAVELER


You sure got that right Whimsicalnbrainpan.

I'm sure it would have taken a lot more episodes to get a hold on Jayne. In the first episode he was going to kill that agent for shooting Kaylee. Then he wants to trade his most precious rifle, Vera, for Safron. My impression is he will support the crew of Serenity. Not because of some ethical code. He did shot one of his own in "Out of Gas" and he pushed Stitch, his partner, out of the transport. But Mal has proved himself to Jayne. He must be living a lot better on Serenity than anywhere else he's been. So he his loyalty appears to be based Mal's ability to earn a good profit. At the time of "Jaynestown" he does not consider Simon and River part of the crew. As he shows latter when he sells them out on Ariel.

I feel he sees something more than profit being with Mal. But he is not sure himself what it is. Loyalty without a cash reward is new to him and he is still awkward with it.

Taking on Niska to save Mal is a big leap for Jayne. Is he finally learning to be part of a team? In "Out of Gas" he preps a spacesuit for Mal without being asked. He actually takes initiative to do something good. Did that wrench to his skull in "Ariel" make him realise what Mal means by being part of the "crew"?

I wish I had the answers. But that is why I like Jayne. You had wonder what his reaction will be in each episode. Oh, how I wish there were more episodes to see.


Traveler

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 8:02 PM

TRUNEVAR


I just finished a JaynesTown music video-

http://jaynestown.angelfire.com

Have a look if you get the chance and let me know what you think. I hope I did the episode justice. :-)



"Why am I fighting to live, if I'm just living to fight"

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 9:46 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


I'm thinking Jayne didn't want anybody to think he would have hired on the likes of Simon.

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Wednesday, February 11, 2009 3:39 AM

RALLEM


Jayne could have been telling the truth too and Simon really isn't one of his.



http://www.swyzzlestyx.com/index.html

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Wednesday, February 11, 2009 6:02 AM

JOHNAG68


Logically speaking, Jayne's words ring true. "He aint a'one of mine" is a true statement because no one on board serenity is one of "his".

One issue here is the possible ambuguity of the term Jayne uses when he says "mine".

Should we take this to mean he is responsible for him, as in belonging to him in some way?

If we take Jayne's words in this fashion, his statement is true because
A) He isnt the captain.
B) Simon is not his servant/slave or belonging to him.

Next, We can infer by Jayne's later actions, including the turning in of Simon to the alliance, that he doesnt really consider him a friend even though he may be travelling along with Simon for the time being.

-- John Gulla

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Wednesday, February 11, 2009 6:14 AM

ZEEK


I think it was a combination. I don't believe Jayne does consider Simon part of the crew at this point. He's being honest in saying Simon isn't one of his. He's so honest that even Stitch believes him right away. The other side of it is that Jayne cares about Kaylee. She's right there and he knows she's got a crush on Simon. He knows that she would be really hurt if she had to watch him get killed right in front of her. I think it was more about honesty and protecting Kaylee than any concern for Simon himself.

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:14 AM

INSTANTKARMAGIRL


Everyone has logical thoughts on this.

Personally? I do think Jayne has a code, just like pretty much everyone in the 'Verse.

I think that while he didn't consider Simon "crew" and didn't like Simon or River based on the threat they posed to him, he wouldn't stand by and let someone be killed or hurt for something they weren't a part of. And yes, especially since the people he is fond of were standing right there.

Had it been anyone else, he would have done the same thing.

Selling River and Simon out to the Feds is a mite easier than watching a boy be butchered in front of you.

And at that point, Simon's tale of woe or not, Jayne didn't TRULY understand what would happen to them. Yes, he saw the brain scan...probably didn't mean much to him...and yes, he heard the words from Simon about them removing bits of her...but in Jayne's world, he doesn't know about hands of blue. He probably only knows that Feds would punish them with respectable means, after all the Alliance's whole trip is about bringing "Enlightenment" to the 'Verse, right?

Jayne didn't fight in the war. He's not anti-Alliance, per se. He's more anti-authority and the Alliance is the authority. He works in a criminal field, so while he doesn't like the Alliance because they could catch and punish him for doing illegal things, he might not know what they're capable of.


So in Jaynestown...I think yes, he was saving Simon, as he would anyone else. Yes, he was being truthful in his statement. Simon wasn't his in any kind of way. Jayne wasn't captain. Jayne didn't consider Simon and River part of the crew. And Jayne didn't consider Simon someone he was friendly with. And yes, Jayne said that to throw Stitch off and help save himself.

As for River slashing Jayne. I think it works on both levels. Had Kaylee been wearing the Blue Sun shirt, River wouldn't have slashed her. However, River has a history of destroying Blue Sun items (as referenced above). I don't think River hates Jayne. I don't know that she really meant to hurt Jayne, however, he's expendable, just like River and Simon are expendable to Jayne.

Hope some of that made sense.

Thanks for the fun topic!


~**~
"How come you're flying about with us brigands? I mean, shouldn't you be off bringing religiosity to the Fuzzie-Wuzzies or some such?"~Cap'n Mal

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Wednesday, June 24, 2009 2:38 PM

KAOSIUM


This episode is one that has really grown on me, I didn't like it at first as it seemed it was just mocking Jayne and he's my favorite character.

However, upon further viewing I believe I got something out of it I hadn't before. Jayne is (at this point) *not* a hero--he doesn't even know what one is! Jayne is the practical, greedy thug, and while he has the ability and capacity to be heroic, he still puts himself above anyone or any cause: the antithesis of being a hero. I think he follows Mal and Zoe because he sees in them something missing in himself, something that even Simon has that he does not. I believe when even Wash showed that quality in "War Stories" it shamed Jayne into dressing for battle and going with them on their 'suicide' run.

Plus I loved the "Hero of Canton" and the crew's reactions to the song. On "Stillflying.net" they have an 'episode' where Jayne is holding off a mob of starving people who want the grain in their hold Mal planned to sell to the rich folk, not knowing the situation. Mal and Zoe are gone leaving Jayne guarding the ship and he's holding his gun on them keeping them at bay when River breaks into "The Hero of Canton" causing Jayne to stand down and let them have a crate of grain. Beautiful scene and something I could see them using in the show had it continued.

One thing that still bugs me though, just what exactly is Jayne's plan for dealing with Stitch if the boy hadn't taken the shot for him? Take a blast in the chest himself, then try to fight Stitch? I would have thought Jayne would have thrown that knife or at least jumped for cover before Stitch got around to firing the shotgun.

"Let's not be excluding people, that would be rude..."

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Wednesday, June 24, 2009 10:27 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


I don't know about shaming Jayne in War Stories. Sure, he'll jabber about it being suicide for other folk, but he's a different entity. Even at the end of BDM, he conjures that he might make it even if nobody else does. And when it's clear there's gonna be some fighting, he sure isn't going to miss out on all the fun.
He also knows he is not a planning genius, and knows that Mal and Zoe seem to have that knack.

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Thursday, June 25, 2009 6:56 AM

KAOSIUM


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
I don't know about shaming Jayne in War Stories. Sure, he'll jabber about it being suicide for other folk, but he's a different entity. Even at the end of BDM, he conjures that he might make it even if nobody else does. And when it's clear there's gonna be some fighting, he sure isn't going to miss out on all the fun.
He also knows he is not a planning genius, and knows that Mal and Zoe seem to have that knack.



I think something must have happened to get him from mocking them for a suicide run to deciding to go himself. It seems pretty apparent that this is a two man (or 'one man, one woman--unisex') operation initially. Zoe is surprised when she sees Book, Kaylee and Simon arming themselves and then must have given Jayne a somewhat shocked look when she saw him all dressed and ready to go judging from Jayne's reaction.


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Monday, June 29, 2009 11:47 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Kaosium:
Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
I don't know about shaming Jayne in War Stories. Sure, he'll jabber about it being suicide for other folk, but he's a different entity. Even at the end of BDM, he conjures that he might make it even if nobody else does. And when it's clear there's gonna be some fighting, he sure isn't going to miss out on all the fun.
He also knows he is not a planning genius, and knows that Mal and Zoe seem to have that knack.



I think something must have happened to get him from mocking them for a suicide run to deciding to go himself. It seems pretty apparent that this is a two man (or 'one man, one woman--unisex') operation initially. Zoe is surprised when she sees Book, Kaylee and Simon arming themselves and then must have given Jayne a somewhat shocked look when she saw him all dressed and ready to go judging from Jayne's reaction.



I reckoned the mocking of suicide run akin to John Wayne telling kids to stay home, or stay behind, while experienced men did the dirty work. But I don't think Jayne had any intention on missing out on any fun fighting which was about to occur. Just my conjuring.

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Tuesday, July 7, 2009 7:24 AM

YELLOWJACKET


Jayne said 'He ain't one of mine' because he didn't except Simon as 'one of his'. He wasn't trying to defend him or save him in any way. He was just flat out saying, 'he ain't a friend of mine'. Pure and simple.




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Tuesday, July 7, 2009 9:56 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by hughff:
Chicken and egg. Would Jayne have sold out River if she hadn't slashed him? Would she have cut him up if she hadn't known he was about to turn her in?




I honestly think that River was having a not-so-lucid moment, and that it's more that Jayne was wearing a Blue Sun shirt that she sliced him up a little. I think River has some precognition ("Fire" in Out of Gas), but I dislike the idea that River would use that precognition to set up self-fulfilling prophecies. It's kind of a waste of her abilities, speaking in a literary sense.

War Stories, my interpretation of Jayne wanting to go help Mal is two fold. His reasoning is that if he doesn't help, he goes out the airlock (unmanly), and if things go wrong, Niska will torture him to death (manly), if things go well, then he's proven a bit of loyalty after his traitorous turn on Ariel. So going after Niska, to his logic, is the better of the two options. Feeling wise, there's about to be a big heroic fight, and Jayne wants to feel like the badass hero of his own story.

Jayne's loyalty to the crew, if it exists beyond Kaylee, is not something he acknowledges. To say that Jayne has a code or is loyal to anyone beyond his mother, father, and his little brother is, I think, a stretch. In the pilot, Mal doesn't believe Jayne turned on him or the Tams, but I think Jayne hedged his bets by giving Dobson the sharp thing to saw through his restraints. If Dobson wins, hey, maybe Jayne'll get a cut of the reward (unlikely, as he'll learn in Ariel), and if Mal beats Dobson, then Jayne gets to keep his nice secure job and sort of home.

I think Jayne tries to make the best out of the opportunities he's been given, and that he weighs the pros and cons a lot with his own unique perspective. I think that he would turn on the crew or abandon them post-Miranda, just to prove he still can.

To contradict my own argument, though, I suspect he'd have a twinge of conscience, like at the end of Jaynestown, and end up back with them. But only after Miranda, because of how that brought the crew together, despite how Jayne might have tried to resist it.

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Thursday, July 16, 2009 5:07 AM

PEACEKEEPER

Keeping order in every verse


Quote:

Originally posted by MRSU:
About River slashing Jayne - there was some interview with Joss (or a convention transcript) where he was asked, who/waht River slashed - Jayne or Blue Sun logo?
He said - both.

And the average viewer, not a fan sitting on fan forums, is supposed to pick up the more obvious meaning first - Jayne was getting on River's nerves by picking on Simon, and she couldn't control her reactions. Blue Sun is the additional motive which can be picked up by an extra attentive viewer as a bonus. Most people who just watch the show and don't discuss it online with other fans never pick that other meaning, and are fine with the first one.

But I agree with Joss - it's both. She wouldn't have slashed him if he was just sitting there in a Blue Sun shirt with his mouth shut (she saw him in this shirt before, after all). And she wouldn't have slashed him if he was in some other shirt but still being an ***hole. She would maybe make a less dramatic gesture in that case. Blue Sun was like a trigger.

And coming back to Jaynestown, again: I still can't see how Jayne could have given up Simon to Stitch in front of Mal and be able to get away with that, or could've not realize that he won't be able to get away with that.

Its obvious to me that River wasn't trying to stab Jayne, she was trying to "paint" him. As we saw in OIS, she often picks up objects and ascribes properties to them that are separate to their realities. She obviously felt she was holding a paintbrush and not a knife, and was trying to paint over Jayne's shirt.Hence the quote "he looks better in red."

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Thursday, July 1, 2010 6:31 AM

MENDUR


Hi.
I don't know if this has been dealt with previously but I have this nagging memory and I'm not sure if it's a false one or a true one.

At the end of "Jaynestown", I seem to have a memory of the mudders putting up a statue of the kid who sacrificed himself to save Jayne ... essentially changing from adoration of Jayne to adoraton of a real hero, one of their own. However, when re-watching the episode recently, I didn't see it. Was the episode re-cut for the DVDs? Or am I dreaming the whole thing?

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Wednesday, December 15, 2010 4:51 AM

TOADSMOOTHY


I think Jayne was torn on how he felt about Simon and River. I can't put my finger on proof of this off the top of my head. Maybe I just want to give Jayne the benefit of the doubt. It was indicated he might sell out Mal if the price was right, yet Out of Gas indicated he had real feeling for Mal. The Tams put them all in danger. The reward would set him up for life. It might give any of us in Jaynes line of work cause to do the math. And recall, River knew he was afraid that they would find out what he had done on Ariel, not because he was afraid of them but surely because he didn't want them to think ill of him. I think Jayne had a conscience, as displayed over the death of the boy at Canton, but personal survival was ingrained in his character.

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Wednesday, December 15, 2010 6:16 AM

DEADPOOL623


Hi all!

Hopefully this wasn't already said, but maybe Jayne just got caught up in all the hero worship and thought he'd try it? (they did have a riot on his account and all)

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