FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Was it the mixed marriage they didn't like?

POSTED BY: NELLIE
UPDATED: Monday, January 30, 2006 19:10
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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:02 PM

MATTEBLACK



Asian/White unions are unspoken, approved versions of interracial relationships...


While I won't deny that their are still some folk who still have such racial hang-ups, I think the issue is so small as to have had basically no effect on the series and movie.

As mentioned earlier, Lenny Kravitz's mother portrayed the Helen Willis on the Jefferson's in the '70's and many productions since have put the topic further and further to rest.

The comments on white/asian pairings reminded me that it seemed like many of the people cast for the series seemed to have multiracial undertones in thier appearances. My assumption was that this was done to drive home the premise of the 'verse's combined ethnicity.

That being said, I believe the racial difference may have been intentional to highlight the pair's differences and the strength of their bond despite them.

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 9:07 PM

NELLIE


Well, I think you are all right in pointing out these various aspects I hadn't thought of, for example that white/Asian couples are considered far more acceptable than salt & pepper ones, and that the Wash/Zoe couple deliberately stressed the physical differences to reinforce the harmony, and the interesting things everybody else said.

It just shows the tremendous courage and farsighted vision of Joss, first in creating this idea, and then in defending it against the executives who so vehemently objected to it, as SergeantX said, for reasons never made clear. But when Joss refused to axe the marriage, look what happened to his show. That's what bothers me.

I think he is very brave to have to deal with all those powerful people on a daily basis---I think it's kind of scary.

It's also tragic that artists of every kind are constantly shackled by interference from business people, who should just give them free rein and let them get on with it. It must be hard enough to be an artist, with that terribly insecure up-and-down life, without all those additional restrictions imposed by business. Business people also make their own great contributions to humanity, of course, but why can't they stay in their own area of expertise?

The last thing I want to say is:
Can't Wash be repaired? Joss is so clever that I hope he can think of a way to repair Wash somehow, because I can't accept the future of Firefly/Serenity without him. Or without Book either. Like Russell and Cub and others have said, it's too depressing.

Anyway, that's just my opinion.

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Thursday, January 19, 2006 8:34 AM

JOLYNEHEATHER


Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:
Just wanted to point out that:
1 This seems to be true, they have no understanding of sci-fi fans.
2 Grok is a great word, and the book it comes from is great too. Odd thing is that I got directed to it by an extremely prudish catholic girl, never would have expected her to like that content (and I'm not talking about the sci-fi.)



You are absolutely right; most television execs have an extremely narrow view of what sci-fi fans are really like. We have jobs, family, friends, go to school... even occassionally get laid. And we like our entertainment to be funny, intelligent, sexy and action packed as well as set in a pleasingly sci-fi setting. Why they can't understand that those elements can coexist successfully is beyond me.

By the by, as a former Catholic school girl (former school girl, not former Catholic) myself, I think Heinlein (I like the Lazarus Long books myself) can act as a release valve for all that self-restraint we're suppose to have.

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Thursday, January 19, 2006 9:15 AM

GLOBLABSURDITY


You'd think the addition of an interracial couple would enhance the executives' and viewers' opinion of the program in a favorable light. Look what a "hot" program Will and Grace is today. Although a different type of program--it also deals with modern day issues and way of life. It's not so "taboo" anymore amongst the majority of people in the world today. It is reality and that is another reason I found Serenity, and then Firefly, so refreshing.
Take a look at what the critics think about 'Brokeback Mountain' and 'Monster's Ball'.
It's hard to imagine that the racial mix would play a roll in the cancellation of our show. Of course, there will be the critics that won't like the program for just that reason--however, I doubt it would make a difference nowadays to television execs. As for the same execs. cancelling our beloved program--you can bet they are so regretting it now--but have a need to save face. PPFT on them!

*Never judge a book by it's movie*
*The heart is an artist that paints over what profoundly disturbs it, leaving on the canvas a less dark,less sharp version of the truth*--D.Koontz (Forever Odd)

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Thursday, January 19, 2006 6:05 PM

RIVER6213


Someone's living in a dreamworld...

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Friday, January 20, 2006 2:50 PM

GLOBLABSURDITY


More like--someone's an idealist. Always been a failing of mine.

*Never judge a book by it's movie*
*The heart is an artist that paints over what profoundly disturbs it, leaving on the canvas a less dark,less sharp version of the truth*--D.Koontz (Forever Odd)

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Friday, January 20, 2006 5:28 PM

RAVENHAIR


As the minority half of an interracial marriage I appreciated the way that Zoe and Wash's marriage was treated - as a marriage of unique individuals who were working on their marriage in each episode. It wasn't about their race (although it was that is part of who they are). I love that they related with each other and the others on so many different levels.

In the context of the show, out in the black and in a new 'verse, Zoe and Wash's marriage was less about race than personality. I mean, really, the Amazon warrior gun wielding woman and the Hawaiian shirt wearing smart ass pilot? Much more startling than Black and White. I think Fox had a problem with what they perceived as a boring married couple.

I live in a a culturally diverse area (compared to most of the US) and fortunately have had very little problems with racism, but I'm not naive enough to believe that I wouldn't have problems in other places. Perhaps my kids will live in a better 'verse? here's hoping

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Saturday, January 21, 2006 4:48 PM

ILLEGALARGENTINE


I doubt that...a lot. It more has to do with people not being able to get into the Comedy, Space, Western, Action Drama idea. When my friend fist described the show to me, before I had even seen any of it, the show sounded stupid. Even the idea of a Firefly shaped ship can turn people away from the show. Fire fly is no Star Trec...because Firefly is a gun shooting blood bath with balls!!!!!

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Saturday, January 21, 2006 5:35 PM

HOPS


/quote Funny, though -- until I saw your post, I never really thought about the Wash/Zoe pairing in those terms. Had to think for a moment before I knew what you meant. I guess that's a mark of how far our society has come over the last half-century -- not that we don't still have a way to go.






I felt the same way when I saw this thread. However I have heard from sources close to the show that Fox did have a problem with the companion character.

There's a Christianity thread that's looking at that issue a little closer.

"Keep On Walking Shephard Man"

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Thursday, January 26, 2006 1:07 PM

NINAH148


As half of an interracial couple (Asian / Black, where does that fall in acceptability between Black / White and White / Asian?) I should have more to say on this, but you've covered the bases. With the exception of -- Nellie, you can't have seen "Walk the Line" yet. Reese Witherspoon did not win a Golden Globe for her portrayal of a "happily married woman," she won it for her portrayal of a woman suffering through two bad relationships while inexorably attracted to a married man. Big difference.

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Thursday, January 26, 2006 9:46 PM

RIVER6213


Quote:

Originally posted by globlabsurdity:
More like--someone's an idealist. Always been a failing of mine.

*Never judge a book by it's movie*
*The heart is an artist that paints over what profoundly disturbs it, leaving on the canvas a less dark,less sharp version of the truth*--D.Koontz (Forever Odd)



Good point, thanks for reminding me ...really.

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Friday, January 27, 2006 1:07 AM

SUBTORPMAN


Zoe was black? What wait isn't she spanish "Gina Torres". Sorry I was busy looking at her body. She is Hot, and a damn good actor.

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Friday, January 27, 2006 5:10 AM

NELLIE


Quote:

Originally posted by Ninah148:
Nellie, you can't have seen "Walk the Line" yet. Reese Witherspoon did not win a Golden Globe for her portrayal of a "happily married woman," she won it for her portrayal of a woman suffering through two bad relationships while inexorably attracted to a married man. Big difference.



Wow! Every time I think this thread has completely disappeared forever, banished to the archives, it pops up again. That's the neat thing about Haken's site---you never know what's going to happen!

You are absolutely right, Ninah148, that I haven't seen "Walk the Line" yet. I only looked up some biographical information about Johnny Cash, and it said June Carter was the love of his life, and they were happily married for decades, and it didn't talk about the rocky road to love that you describe. It just quoted June as saying she had always been happy to be a part of his life, so I just wrongly assumed it was smooth sailing the whole time.

I still say happy marriages are not boring, though---were we all bored by Wash & Zoe? I don't agree that happy=boring, and I think it's time we changed this old idea that all "art" must be achingly sad, traumatic or miserable in order to be "art".

Well, I don't know where your happy Asian/Black couple goes in order of "acceptability", but I think it's cool anyway!

And to all you Browncoats, tonight is Chinese New Year's Eve, so may you have a

Happy & Prosperous Year of the Fire Dog!

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Friday, January 27, 2006 5:45 AM

NINAH148


I'm a newcomer to this site, so all the threads seem new to me! :-) Yeah, Johnny and June Carter Cash ended up together very happily, but the movie ends before they're even married, and is all about their troubled courtship (she was married and then divorced and in another relationship, he was married and drug-addicted). Great movie, though, definitely go see it!

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Friday, January 27, 2006 5:50 AM

NINAH148


Oh, I should say I agree with what you said in other respects, though. Zoe and Wash are not boring, the interplay between them is a really important element of the show, gives rise to some of the best laughs (thinking of Wash's interrogation here), and gives the Serenity crew and emotional grounding that some of the more "lost" characters lack. And of course interracial romances are still not completely accepted by everyone, we're barely a generation from when such relationships were considered crimes. From my experience and the experience of other interracial couples I know of all varieties, the intolerance is extremely sporadic and hopefully continuing to diminish over time.

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Friday, January 27, 2006 5:24 PM

MERCHANTMARINE1


27 January 2006

Mixed or interracial marriages probably was an element, the episode of "War Stories" with the arrival of the ambassador on a quiet appointment and the scenes that followed probably stunned the network execs. Remember Rosie, Ellen and many other celebrities that voiced their position. The networks are not ready for that just yet, its not racist, its politics. I am in an interracial marriage and firefly touched my wife and I, we saw the series for the first time this month on the Scifi Channel and went out and found the Serenity DVD and bought the complete series on DVD. A word to Mr. Whedon, there is no such thing as dead, the audience is what is important, star trek was ressurected from the sixties and formed 6 motion pictures with the original cast, 3 spin off series with Mr. Roddenbury producing one of them until his passing. Let the fans decide obviously the fans already think you are a genious talent behind the camera.



Brian Kendrick
Merchantmarine1

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Friday, January 27, 2006 6:20 PM

DERANGEDMILK


Quote:

Originally posted by Blinker:

Star Trek is full of 'em: O'Brien and Keiko, Paris and Torres, Worf and Jadzia. (That last marriage ended in death, but only because Terry Farrell asked to leave the series.)



Can't forget that the original Star Trek series had the first televisied interracial kiss between Kirk and Uhura(sp?).

-e

"Storms getting worse."
"We'll pass through it soon enough."

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Monday, January 30, 2006 7:10 PM

MERCHANTMARINE1


30 January 2006

I met Nichols in person several years ago in West Sacramento at a convention, she mentioned the drama about that scene from Execs and the audience and that was the 60's. Its politics mixed with religion, we have seen wasted debate in our legislator and federal government over same sex marriage bans, myself, just sitting in a wifi coffee house cafe with my laptop with all my wifes pics on the outside taped, had responses like "I hate asian women they are too dammed skinny" yes that was said to me and also on a first class flight to Hawaii too... made by a lady sitting next to me looking at my screen savors. The problem is in the older generation, many execs are in favor of reality TV, shows with less controversy, talk shows that have the host put forth their own views do not last long ex rosie, ellen just to name a few, now that WB and UPN or leaving the airwaves might help in a change, and Fox needs to look to the future. Can TV change ideas and beliefs, in my opinion NO, that arena belongs in the home. Again I say let the audience and fans decide. If the scifi channel can reserrect Battlestar Galactica and making its 3rd season now, Mr. Whedon should consider that. Unversal Pictures gave him a shot, the firefly is not dead, rumors make it so but look at all the threads and interviews Serenity made believers and admirers. It did for my wife and I and we are interracial and live in the Philippines too. Don't give up. Like Mal said, love remember those lines in Serenity.



Merchantmarine1

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