FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Blasphemy? Kaylee Get's On My Nerves!

POSTED BY: HIGHWIREDSITH
UPDATED: Thursday, June 8, 2006 12:59
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Friday, December 23, 2005 4:39 AM

HIGHWIREDSITH


Yeah, I know, a beloved character, sweet, innocent, pure...but in how many episodes does Kaylee get her feelings hurt? I mean seriously, you have to walk on eggshells around the girl. Jayne upsets her, Mal upsets her, the women at the part upset her, Simon upsets her and upsets her and upsets her...just about every show features someone hurting sweet little Kaylee's feelings. Maybe she ought to toughen up a little eh?

OK, maybe not. But Jayne's line about Kaylee wishing Simon was a gynocologist was flat out hilarious.


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Friday, December 23, 2005 4:54 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

Originally posted by HighWiredSith:
Yeah, I know, a beloved character, sweet, innocent, pure...but in how many episodes does Kaylee get her feelings hurt? I mean seriously, you have to walk on eggshells around the girl. Jayne upsets her, Mal upsets her, the women at the part upset her, Simon upsets her and upsets her and upsets her...just about every show features someone hurting sweet little Kaylee's feelings. Maybe she ought to toughen up a little eh?

She was the one telling the captain off in OMR, and check out her little rant in the Maidenhead on Beaumonde in the Movie, not to mention the severity with which she cocks that gun at the stand off in the movie, never mind the reason. Took her a bit, but she developed herself a nice thick skin.

We'd have seen it develop, had the series continued. I suspect Kaylee's character development would have been as dramatic as Willow's in "Buffy."

Yes, I had to defend her - but you started it, didn't you?

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Friday, December 23, 2005 5:41 AM

TOASTED


I've never considered her sweet, innocent or pure. Remember her introduction to Mal in Out of Gas? Simon was way out of her league. But, his options were limited. Yet another big sacrifice he had to make to help his sister. She has always been my least favorite character.

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Friday, December 23, 2005 6:12 AM

LEIGHKOHL


Kaylee is young, she's just learning about the world and how to deal with people. How would you like it if somebody said out loud to the person you thought was cute something completely embarrassing? And she was being told by the captain that he basically thought of her as not a girl worth having something fine like the dress she adored(though her fashion taste leaves something to be desired). Another point, just because Kaylee has sex it doesn't mean she's not innocent or pure of heart. Yes, Kaylee is one of my favorite characters, but Channain is right, she would have developed over the series as she got older. But everybody is entitled to their own opinion, so go ahead and hate away, you puritanical meanies.:):)(the last line was a joke so don't be upset, just in case you're sensitive).:)

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Friday, December 23, 2005 6:42 AM

HIGHWIREDSITH


I don't hate her!

I do like the fact that she's a total contrast from your typical ship's engineer (as seen in every manifestation of Star Trek there ever was). But it did get a little annoying, every time one of the male characters would say something to hurt her feelings the rest of the crew would give them these "you're just plain evil" looks.

The line in the film "I ain't nothing that wasn't battery powered between my nethers..." was classic. Mal's response was even better! But her turn to the darkside moment with the reavers because she wanted to have sex was, well, just a little weird.

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Friday, December 23, 2005 7:26 AM

STILLSHINY


Quote:

Originally posted by Channain:
We'd have seen it develop, had the series continued. I suspect Kaylee's character development would have been as dramatic as Willow's in "Buffy."



If I may....Joss himself made this comparison. He said Kaylee was the heart, the sense of family for the crew. He said Kaylee was much like Willow was for Buffy. (I rather disliked Willow in the later seasons of Buffy Puritanical me!) Anyway, the idea was they were a humanizing & emotional connection for the viewer.

If Willow or Kaylee was afraid, Joss (the viewer) was afraid. If Kaylee or Willow said "this is a good person" the viewer (Joss) believed this was a good person.

Did that make any sense???

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Friday, December 23, 2005 11:09 PM

LOUGOJIRA


Quote:

OK, maybe not. But Jayne's line about Kaylee wishing Simon was a gynocologist was flat out hilarious.


Yeah, I laughed at that myself. I don't understand why Mal got so ticked off about it, because he had called Inara a whore in introducing her to Shepherd Book just a little earlier...kind of a double-standard to me, unless he got mad over Jayne's words embarassing Kaylee...oh well, I'm probably analyzing it too deeply.

I understand being annoyed with Kaylee's over-sensitive nature. Heck, in "The Message" episode (the only episode of the 14 I actually don't like), I got annoyed myself. Simon naively says the wrong thing and ends up in the dog house, yet the guy (can't remember his name) hides behind her with guns pointed his way, and everything is peachy? Nope...don't see it happening.

Even though Kaylee's sensitivity can get annoying at times, I personally see it adding to her charm. To me, it sort of gives her an essence of submission...kind of like she's longing for your approval, even though she's a take-charge kind of girl when she needs to be. With so many "I am woman...hear me roar" types of characters cluttering up any and all forms of media, it's actually pretty cool and even refreshing to see her with a kind "puritanical submissiveness" to people, particularly Simon...the man she wants.

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Saturday, December 24, 2005 8:50 AM

BLACKRABBIT


Kaylee always strikes me as a nice portrait of a rural female. A frontier child, you might say. She gives what she has openly and honestly. She speaks from her heart and isn't sophisticated in attempting to hide her intent or apologize for her actions. She's not "too cool to care" or subtly aloof like Inara. Kaylee doesn't have Zoe's emotional distance, nor Zoe's strength.

She's absolutely charming.

You know...psychologists say that what we hate in others is what we lack in ourselves.

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Saturday, December 24, 2005 10:54 AM

ANIMALMOTHER


Quote:

Originally posted by LouGojira:
Quote:

OK, maybe not. But Jayne's line about Kaylee wishing Simon was a gynocologist was flat out hilarious.


Yeah, I laughed at that myself. I don't understand why Mal got so ticked off about it, because he had called Inara a whore in introducing her to Shepherd Book just a little earlier...kind of a double-standard to me, unless he got mad over Jayne's words embarassing Kaylee...oh well, I'm probably analyzing it too deeply.




In my opinion, Mal feels as if Kaylee is his little sister; he has moments throughout the series where he shows that kinda overprotective and caring side of him to Kaylee. The pilot episode had a lot of those moments; the Jayne-gynocologist thing obviously, when Kaylee gets shot and he's contemplating whether to run or not and then Kaylee lets out that serious cry in which he then decides to let Simon have his way so long as Kaylee gets medical attention, when Kaylee says shes feeling cold in the infirmary and Mal covers her with a blanket.... We all know Mal has that obligation towards his crew to protect them but it always seems like Kaylee gets most of that affection. He did make fun of her in Shindig with the dress thing but he quickly realized that it wasnt in his true nature to say something like that to Kaylee and obviously redeems himself and her feelings later in the episode. Out of the whole crew, Kaylee does have the most innocense to her, i mean, i think the flowers on her bunk door say it all.

True, Mal calls Inara a whore often but both him and her have that kind of tough loving thing going on where neither of them wanna admit they like each other and instead make subtle insults in an attempt to fool each other and themselves of their true feelings. I guess the whole Mal-Inara thing is another forum topic though...

Kaylee is one of my favorite characters in the series, with the other being Jayne. Kinda funny considering when I think about it theyre probably the two most opposite. I agree with the previous post, I think Kaylee is so intriguing because of her "puritanical submissiveness" and that kind of sensualnees to her where she isnt afraid of expressing her emotions.

"I'll be in my bunk."

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Saturday, December 24, 2005 1:25 PM

LOUGOJIRA


Quote:

Originally posted by BlackRabbit:
Kaylee always strikes me as a nice portrait of a rural female. A frontier child, you might say. She gives what she has openly and honestly. She speaks from her heart and isn't sophisticated in attempting to hide her intent or apologize for her actions. She's not "too cool to care" or subtly aloof like Inara. Kaylee doesn't have Zoe's emotional distance, nor Zoe's strength.

She's absolutely charming.



Couldn't have described Kaylee better if I tried!

If Jewel Staite is even half as charming as the character of Kaylee in real life, her boyfriend or husband is seriously one lucky s.o.b.!

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Saturday, December 24, 2005 1:34 PM

LOUGOJIRA


Quote:

Originally posted by AnimalMother:
In my opinion, Mal feels as if Kaylee is his little sister; he has moments throughout the series where he shows that kinda overprotective and caring side of him to Kaylee. The pilot episode had a lot of those moments; the Jayne-gynocologist thing obviously, when Kaylee gets shot and he's contemplating whether to run or not and then Kaylee lets out that serious cry in which he then decides to let Simon have his way so long as Kaylee gets medical attention, when Kaylee says shes feeling cold in the infirmary and Mal covers her with a blanket.... We all know Mal has that obligation towards his crew to protect them but it always seems like Kaylee gets most of that affection. He did make fun of her in Shindig with the dress thing but he quickly realized that it wasnt in his true nature to say something like that to Kaylee and obviously redeems himself and her feelings later in the episode.



Good points. I got that feeling myself; Mal thinks of Kaylee as a little sister. I should've thought about that...now it makes sense why he got on Jayne for the comment.

Another act of Mal toward Kaylee to back this up is his kissing her on the head in the "Our Mrs. Reynolds" episode. No peck on the cheek...no playful swat on the butt...nothing that could've been read as flirtatious. Just Mal showing gratitude...

I've sometimes wondered why Mal wouldn't be attracted to Kaylee...he see's her and works with her on a regular basis, and unlike Zoe she's unattached (of course she might well be after the movie), she's certainly pretty enough, and sweet as the day is long...don't have the questionable career Inara does...ain't crazy like River...so obviously he does see her as a little sis and nothing more. His loss and Simon's gain I suppose.

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Saturday, December 24, 2005 3:10 PM

ANIMALMOTHER


Quote:


If Jewel Staite is even half as charming as the character of Kaylee in real life, her boyfriend or husband is seriously one lucky s.o.b.!



Ditto


I met Jewel breifly at the flanvention, she really is a nice person. She wasnt in Kaylee's mechanic jumpsuit with engine grease markings, but charming none-the-less.

"I'll be in my bunk."

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Tuesday, December 27, 2005 12:02 PM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

Originally posted by HighWiredSmith
But it did get a little annoying, every time one of the male characters would say something to hurt her feelings the rest of the crew would give them these "you're just plain evil" looks….But her turn to the darkside moment with the reavers because she wanted to have sex was, well, just a little weird.

Turn to the darkside… self preservation… poTAYtoe, poTAHto.

Personally, I don't see her choosing to defend herself against reavers as turning to the dark side, whatever the reason, but that's me.

Consider the character - not Zoe, so not going to strike back--probably by shoving the bridge of your nose into your brain. Not River, so not going to kill you with her brain or radical slayer-like moves and sharp objects. Not Inara who will cut you down with disdain. In fact, Kaylee would never hurt a flea unless said flea managed to muck up the workings of Serenity, and even then she'd feel horrible about it for days.

Kaylee can defend herself, but she has the kind of spirit that makes some want to rise up and do it for her anyway. If she used that power for evil instead of good, she'd be a Patience-like import/export baronness in the "dark 'verse" if there is such a thing, rather Glory-like even. But simply said, she doesn't.
Quote:

Originally posted by StillShiny
If I may....Joss himself made this comparison. He said Kaylee was the heart, the sense of family for the crew. He said Kaylee was much like Willow was for Buffy….If Willow or Kaylee was afraid, Joss (the viewer) was afraid. If Kaylee or Willow said "this is a good person" the viewer (Joss) believed this was a good person.


Of course you may.

I remember making all those comparisons myself when I first started watching the series. It follows then that anyone who hurts Kaylee's feelings will be frowned upon by the viewer, no matter who it was. Sometimes I think Joss put Simon and Mal in those situations on purpose. Some writers just like to torture their characters. Joss is different from other writers because he likes to torture ALL his characters, but that's just Joss.

To me, that meager amount of development means Joss was setting Kaylee up for something--and not a happy something either. Don't know what or where, but he was establishing the fact that the entire crew would do whatever they had to for Kaylee, even more so than they would for Mal. A hostage situation… with Niska, for instance.

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Tuesday, December 27, 2005 4:39 PM

DC4BS


Some of Kaylees dialog just sounded too contrived and forced to me in the movie. I guess Joss wanted to really emphasize that she was the innocent "country" girl without much formal education for people who had not seen any of Firefly but it just seemd to go too far. I think Jewel just doesn't look comfortable saying some of the lines.

The "twixt my nethers" line just didn't fit. I have no problem with the message. That fits her PERFECTLY. The words chosen to convey the message are the problem. They just didn't flow for me. There are a few other lines I thought went too far into "country hick" but I can't think of them off the top of my head. I do remember that several jared me out of the flow of movie cause they just didn't "feel right".

------------------------------------------
dc4bs

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Tuesday, December 27, 2005 5:28 PM

TOMSIMPSONAZ


The girl was sexually frustrated, leave her alone, I bet she comes across as a stoned Inara after getting plowed at the end of the movie.


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Monday, June 5, 2006 11:24 AM

MRSU


Looks like it's the right thread for my rant on Kaylee/Simon.

I started out loving Kaylee in the pilot: the strawberry, the parasole, the cheerfullness, 'That's my girl, that's my good girl' etc. - and I loved the sparkle between her and Simon: he was so uptight and arrogant there, but when he looked at her you could see there's more to him, and she brought it out.
I continued to like her in Train Job and Bushwacked, and it was fun to watch the sparkle between her and Simon grow. My admiration for her culminated in Shindig: oh, she was so sweet in her Cinderella dress, and winning the hearts of all those older gentlemen at the Party with mechanic talk - priceless.

But since Safe, since she started hitting on Simon heavily, my admiration went downhill. She appeared selfish and too demanding to me: it looked like she just wanted "a bite" out of the man (in her own words there) and didn't really care about him as a person or tried to understand him. All she cared for is to have her way with this good-looking fella, and she could get mightily mean with him when that desire couldn't be fullfilled as fast as she wanted.

That scene in the store in Safe: it was so obvious that Simon was at the end of his rope, he looked and felt at that time like a tired mother whose kid is having a tantrum in a public place and who's had a scene with her husband shortly before that (I believe mothers out here can emphasize...) Anyone with eyes could see that, but Kaylee didn't notice as she was too busy drooling over his looks. No wonder her comment about "having fun" provokes the outburst from him, and she lashes back with suprising meanness, without even trying to think why he would say such things. Gee, could it be that he is not the happiest or care-free-est guy in the world, could it be that something is eating at him - what would that be, eh? Does one have to be a smartie to figure it out? Kaylee's not stupid - so it looked like she just didn't care.

But it gets even worse in Jamestown: her trying to lecture him on error of his ways of being polite and cultured and gentlemanly. She wanted him to change for her: that's a big no-no in relationships. But moreover, she wanted him to change for the worse just because she was uncomfortable with him being a bit out of her league. The man lost everything, lost his old life with all that was dear for him, besides his wreck of a sister whom he also almost lost. Those manners, culture, principles - those are things which help him to hold it together, to remain himself in unfamiliar and often adverse circumstances.
There are stories out there since times of gold rushes, about people having to spend winter locked in some cabin, or being lost and having to treck out of the woods for weeks. My half-brother was a forester and now he is a hunter, and he's been in such situations. The guys who continue to shave regularly, to wash their clothes, to build up fire & cook hot meals even if they are starving and tired and that means more work - those guys have much better chance to get out of this alive and well than those who just let it go and sink down to primary state.
It's the same for Simon - keeping his refined manners really helps him to survive and remain whole, and it's very inconsiderate of Kaylee to try and kick it from under him.
And come on - her head wouldn't have exploded if she learned a bit about Egyptians. History is fun, expanding horizons is fun, learning something beyound the daily routine is fun as well.

Also that bit with her chiding him for getting beaten by Stitch makes me cringe. First of all: it was her fault for leaving him at that bar, where he was clearly out of place, for no practical purpose but out of spite for his awkward words. She left him there bewildered and hangover, and Stitch got him by suprise, OK? Plus this Stitch was thick as a bull: not only Simon hitting him with a bottle had no effect, but later Jayne throws a huge knife at him and this guy just ignores it and keeps fighting with a knife sticking out of his chest! Blaming Simon for loosing this fight is pretty silly, I don't know what she was thinking.

Then comes the Message, and it gets worse still. As already noted here, she gets mad at Simon for some awkward words but then falls for quite disgusting Tracy who wouldn't hesitate to shoot her.

Also all that stuff about him having to be happy on Serenity. Kaylee wants him to like Serenity just because she loves it, and she again doesn't care what he wants, what really makes him happy. She gets upset over him liking his old life at the hospital - if she cared for him she would take it into account instead, would be glad for this piece of insight into his character. If she cared for him and understood him she would really wish for his ordeal to be over someday, for him to be able to return to the work he loves.

It just - I don't know, she demands and demands - that he learned to like it on Serenity, that he says only the right words, that he be like everybody else and not stand out etc., - and she gives nothing back. Simon is remarkably strong fella but he's just not in a condition to give to her, he's totally spent with his care of River.
He could use some takin' instead, some support and understanding, that's why I enjoy his moments with Inara and Book - they both are very good to him, and they are also from his world.
I love the moment in Jamestown when Book offers to babysit River and give Simon couple of hours of freedom - as a mother of twins I can really appreciate how much that could mean. :)

Mind you, I liked Kaylee much more in the movie: there she was more mature and caring. That made the end when they made it up quite believable. But what I really missed in the movie is the some closing scene between Simon and River: after all, it was his quest to save her, and the quest really ended on Miranda: River was truly back. Some moment of happiness and rejoice between them, some moment of them being brother and sister as before, enjoying themselves, revelling in their geekiness and smartness - that would be really sweet and would put a good closure on everything, better than just going at it with Kaylee.

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Monday, June 5, 2006 12:22 PM

MSG


I agree. Kaylee is sort of Mal's human credentials. She is so gentle and sweet and Mal is so careful of her ( for the most part) she's what makes Mal ( at first) seem more of a good guy and later keeps Mal from freezing over emotionally. Plus I just love watching her throw Simon so totally off guard.

You're only young once, but you can be immature any time!

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Monday, June 5, 2006 1:50 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Looks like it's the right thread for my rant on Kaylee/Simon.

I started out loving Kaylee in the pilot: the strawberry, the parasole, the cheerfullness, 'That's my girl, that's my good girl' etc. - and I loved the sparkle between her and Simon: he was so uptight and arrogant there, but when he looked at her you could see there's more to him, and she brought it out.
I continued to like her in Train Job and Bushwacked, and it was fun to watch the sparkle between her and Simon grow. My admiration for her culminated in Shindig: oh, she was so sweet in her Cinderella dress, and winning the hearts of all those older gentlemen at the Party with mechanic talk - priceless.

But since Safe, since she started hitting on Simon heavily, my admiration went downhill. She appeared selfish and too demanding to me: it looked like she just wanted "a bite" out of the man (in her own words there) and didn't really care about him as a person or tried to understand him. All she cared for is to have her way with this good-looking fella, and she could get mightily mean with him when that desire couldn't be fullfilled as fast as she wanted.

That scene in the store in Safe: it was so obvious that Simon was at the end of his rope, he looked and felt at that time like a tired mother whose kid is having a tantrum in a public place and who's had a scene with her husband shortly before that (I believe mothers out here can emphasize...) Anyone with eyes could see that, but Kaylee didn't notice as she was too busy drooling over his looks. No wonder her comment about "having fun" provokes the outburst from him, and she lashes back with suprising meanness, without even trying to think why he would say such things. Gee, could it be that he is not the happiest or care-free-est guy in the world, could it be that something is eating at him - what would that be, eh? Does one have to be a smartie to figure it out? Kaylee's not stupid - so it looked like she just didn't care.

But it gets even worse in Jamestown: her trying to lecture him on error of his ways of being polite and cultured and gentlemanly. She wanted him to change for her: that's a big no-no in relationships. But moreover, she wanted him to change for the worse just because she was uncomfortable with him being a bit out of her league. The man lost everything, lost his old life with all that was dear for him, besides his wreck of a sister whom he also almost lost. Those manners, culture, principles - those are things which help him to hold it together, to remain himself in unfamiliar and often adverse circumstances.
There are stories out there since times of gold rushes, about people having to spend winter locked in some cabin, or being lost and having to treck out of the woods for weeks. My half-brother was a forester and now he is a hunter, and he's been in such situations. The guys who continue to shave regularly, to wash their clothes, to build up fire & cook hot meals even if they are starving and tired and that means more work - those guys have much better chance to get out of this alive and well than those who just let it go and sink down to primary state.
It's the same for Simon - keeping his refined manners really helps him to survive and remain whole, and it's very inconsiderate of Kaylee to try and kick it from under him.
And come on - her head wouldn't have exploded if she learned a bit about Egyptians. History is fun, expanding horizons is fun, learning something beyound the daily routine is fun as well.

Also that bit with her chiding him for getting beaten by Stitch makes me cringe. First of all: it was her fault for leaving him at that bar, where he was clearly out of place, for no practical purpose but out of spite for his awkward words. She left him there bewildered and hangover, and Stitch got him by suprise, OK? Plus this Stitch was thick as a bull: not only Simon hitting him with a bottle had no effect, but later Jayne throws a huge knife at him and this guy just ignores it and keeps fighting with a knife sticking out of his chest! Blaming Simon for loosing this fight is pretty silly, I don't know what she was thinking.

Then comes the Message, and it gets worse still. As already noted here, she gets mad at Simon for some awkward words but then falls for quite disgusting Tracy who wouldn't hesitate to shoot her.

Also all that stuff about him having to be happy on Serenity. Kaylee wants him to like Serenity just because she loves it, and she again doesn't care what he wants, what really makes him happy. She gets upset over him liking his old life at the hospital - if she cared for him she would take it into account instead, would be glad for this piece of insight into his character. If she cared for him and understood him she would really wish for his ordeal to be over someday, for him to be able to return to the work he loves.

It just - I don't know, she demands and demands - that he learned to like it on Serenity, that he says only the right words, that he be like everybody else and not stand out etc., - and she gives nothing back. Simon is remarkably strong fella but he's just not in a condition to give to her, he's totally spent with his care of River.
He could use some takin' instead, some support and understanding, that's why I enjoy his moments with Inara and Book - they both are very good to him, and they are also from his world.
I love the moment in Jamestown when Book offers to babysit River and give Simon couple of hours of freedom - as a mother of twins I can really appreciate how much that could mean. :)

Mind you, I liked Kaylee much more in the movie: there she was more mature and caring. That made the end when they made it up quite believable. But what I really missed in the movie is the some closing scene between Simon and River: after all, it was his quest to save her, and the quest really ended on Miranda: River was truly back. Some moment of happiness and rejoice between them, some moment of them being brother and sister as before, enjoying themselves, revelling in their geekiness and smartness - that would be really sweet and would put a good closure on everything, better than just going at it with Kaylee.



nice rant MRSU

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Monday, June 5, 2006 4:19 PM

MRSU


Quote:

Originally posted by msg:
Plus I just love watching her throw Simon so totally off guard.



Yes, she certainly makes his life more interesting and colourful, and he hers. :) I believe despite all those frustrations and hickups they both throughly enjoy this flirt.
I just can't see it working long-term.

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Wednesday, June 7, 2006 11:24 PM

AGENTROUKA


MRSU --

Wow, an excellent summary!! You really hit it on the head there!

And I adore Kaylee in spite of it, maybe more so than if she had no faults at all, because this childlike/childish conundrum, the two sides of the coin, make her more complex.

As with each character on Serenity, her strength is also her weakness.

I really enjoyed reading you sum that up so well!

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Sun, June 12, 2022 14:39 - 1 posts
Episode sequence?
Wed, February 16, 2022 00:58 - 9 posts
I have lost all faith in the Oscars!
Wed, December 22, 2021 08:46 - 37 posts
Questions about Sound in Space
Mon, November 29, 2021 20:47 - 41 posts
Itinerary for Serenity during the 9 months of Firefly/Serenity.
Thu, June 20, 2019 20:39 - 21 posts
Map of the Verse discussion
Tue, June 4, 2019 20:51 - 170 posts
The Savant Crew
Wed, May 15, 2019 13:47 - 32 posts
Who Was Your Favorite Friend of Our BDH?
Wed, April 24, 2019 00:26 - 3 posts

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