FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Tracy's Death: Avoidable?

POSTED BY: MADRIK
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 09:38
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Friday, October 21, 2005 10:01 PM

MADRIK


During the scene of Tracy in the bridge telling the crew not to call the the Alliance cop in, Tracy, out of fear of them, from his point of view, betraying him, he shot at Wash. Immediatly after, out of love of course, Zoe quickly shot Tracy in the chest.

I believe this could have been avoidable if they had told Tracy the plan! They didn't. Mal just said, "Wash, make the call" while Tracy had a gun pointed at them.

Great idea, Book! But you coulda shared that info. Would have saved a lot of grief.


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Friday, October 21, 2005 10:30 PM

JACQUI


It's the popular theory.


Mal has a habit of expecting people to do his bidding, just 'cause he's the captain and he tells them to. It's the same in "Bushwacked" when he just orders Simon to go get River and Simon arcs up and accuses Mal of wanting to sell them to the Alliance... if Mal had just said "I plan to hide you", it would have saved time and a lot of worry.

Same as 'The Message', if Mal or Book had just said "we have a plan, listen to us", they could have saved Wash getting shot, Tracey getting shot, Kaylee getting held at gun point and then Tracey getting shot and killed by Mal.

Lotsa trouble, all 'cause Mal's too stubborn to say the word "because".

*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"

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Saturday, October 22, 2005 1:49 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD


Well, he was going to die sooner or later. They can't take those organs out of him without killing him.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Saturday, October 22, 2005 2:08 PM

JACQUI


Yeah, but he probably didn't need to shoot at Wash or hold Kaylee at gunpoint, did he?

*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"

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Saturday, October 22, 2005 5:28 PM

NOSADSEVEN


Well, by that point Tracey was already convinced they had turned on him, and could very well have assumed that they were BSing him since he had them at gun point. Plus, Tracey was pissing Mal off.

Also, as Captain, Mal doesn't want to set the precedent of needing to explain things before his crew will do as he says. His ship is not the ruttin' town hall. These were both public challenges to Mal's authority, and he disregards their legitimacy. Every time an incident like that happens, Mal demonstrates not only to the people directly involved (Simon / Tracey), but also to everyone else on the ship, that they are expected to follow him, and that he will do right by them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.

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Monday, October 24, 2005 11:36 AM

VISITINGMYINTENTIONS


Quote:

Originally posted by Jacqui:
It's the popular theory.


Mal has a habit of expecting people to do his bidding, just 'cause he's the captain and he tells them to. It's the same in "Bushwacked" when he just orders Simon to go get River and Simon arcs up and accuses Mal of wanting to sell them to the Alliance... if Mal had just said "I plan to hide you", it would have saved time and a lot of worry.

Same as 'The Message', if Mal or Book had just said "we have a plan, listen to us", they could have saved Wash getting shot, Tracey getting shot, Kaylee getting held at gun point and then Tracey getting shot and killed by Mal.

Lotsa trouble, all 'cause Mal's too stubborn to say the word "because".

*~*~*
"Your toes are in the sand."
"And your head's up your..."
"Hey!"



I'd have to agree with that. Mal makes mistakes. Remember when Kaylee is shot, and he wants to stand there arguing with Simon? Mal's need for control sometimes overrides his attention to practicality.

---------------------------------------------------
Early: Where'd she go?

Simon: I can't keep track of her when she's NOT incorporeally possessing a spaceship, don't look at me --

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Monday, October 24, 2005 11:53 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by nosadseven:
Well, by that point Tracey was already convinced they had turned on him, and could very well have assumed that they were BSing him since he had them at gun point. Plus, Tracey was pissing Mal off.

Also, as Captain, Mal doesn't want to set the precedent of needing to explain things before his crew will do as he says. His ship is not the ruttin' town hall. These were both public challenges to Mal's authority, and he disregards their legitimacy. Every time an incident like that happens, Mal demonstrates not only to the people directly involved (Simon / Tracey), but also to everyone else on the ship, that they are expected to follow him, and that he will do right by them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.



Excellent post there. But I have to wonder, as fine a plan as Mal has w/ both Simon( Bushwhacked) and Tracy ( The Message ), several times the point is made that Mal's plans usually blow up in his face. Not that any of that is so relevent to the characters, but to us the viewer, it's an odd dichotomy.

But as we see in Firefly and Serenity, it IS Mal's ship. Make no mistake about that.


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, October 24, 2005 12:29 PM

GROUNDED


Even so, I don't think Mal's need for control is great enough that he'd let an old war buddy (maybe the term buddy is a bit generous here...) die for no real reason.

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Monday, October 24, 2005 2:05 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Grounded:
Even so, I don't think Mal's need for control is great enough that he'd let an old war buddy (maybe the term buddy is a bit generous here...) die for no real reason.



You wouldn't think so, whould ya? But maybe Mal figures Tracy as much as anyone ( after Zoe ) would know what Mal is all about. What the viewer sees as a flaw in the Capt. ( and perhaps justifiably so ), Joss writes into his characters levels which the viewer may / may not be privy to. Or maybe if the story went . " Hey, Tracy...put down that gun, we've got a plan" then the Feds would be chased off,Tracy would still be alive and be bangin' Kaylee in the engine room, with Simon all but forgotten.

Would ya rather have that ??? Huh?



" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, October 24, 2005 2:20 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.


Quote:

AURaptor wrote:
Monday, October 24, 2005 14:05
...Tracy would still be alive and be bangin' Kaylee in the engine room, with Simon all but forgotten.

Would ya rather have that ??? Huh?




Aura, You're cracking me up.

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Tuesday, October 25, 2005 1:57 AM

GROUNDED


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Grounded:
Even so, I don't think Mal's need for control is great enough that he'd let an old war buddy (maybe the term buddy is a bit generous here...) die for no real reason.



You wouldn't think so, whould ya? But maybe Mal figures Tracy as much as anyone ( after Zoe ) would know what Mal is all about. What the viewer sees as a flaw in the Capt. ( and perhaps justifiably so ), Joss writes into his characters levels which the viewer may / may not be privy to. Or maybe if the story went . " Hey, Tracy...put down that gun, we've got a plan" then the Feds would be chased off,Tracy would still be alive and be bangin' Kaylee in the engine room, with Simon all but forgotten.

Would ya rather have that ??? Huh?



" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "



I don't think it would have been too tough to rewrite the scene so that they tell him the plan and it still goes wrong.

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Tuesday, October 25, 2005 8:25 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Could Mal have explained things? Sure, but what would that do to his authority? He & his crew wind up in tight jams all the time. Sometimes there is no time to explain things or to even consider other courses of action. Mal has to act & he has to rely on his crew to follow his orders without hesitation or question. In some cases for the crew to hesitate or question Mal it could lead to one or even all of them getting killed.

The point that was brought up that had Mal told Tracy he had a plan, he might have thought Mal was lying in an effort to defuse the situation. Mal may have let his past experience w/ Tracy being an inexperienced subordinate who jumped when Mal told him color his judgement. Things may have turned out differently had Mal let Tracy in on things, but they might not have either.

The point is that Mal is not perfect. Mal, like everyone on Serenity, is flawed. He is human & hence has short comings. This is what makes him & the rest of the crew more real and the story Joss told us all the more enjoyable. Mal is not the infallible Captain Picard, he is a man on the edge of society, a scarred man doing the best he can.

Having been in the military I know how command comes easy for some & the military mindset is not to question orders. When orders are issued you obey. Disobey at your peril. Obviously Mal took more than his attitude toward the Alliance away from the War of Unification.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org


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Tuesday, October 25, 2005 8:42 AM

NOSADSEVEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Excellent post there. But I have to wonder, as fine a plan as Mal has w/ both Simon( Bushwhacked) and Tracy ( The Message ), several times the point is made that Mal's plans usually blow up in his face. Not that any of that is so relevent to the characters, but to us the viewer, it's an odd dichotomy.


It is significant that both Simon and Tracey balked not because they didn't think the Captain's plans would work, but because they didn't trust the intention of those plans. In Tracey's case, that is what ultimately caused the plan to blow up in Mal's face. Simon would have done the same thing if he had some leverage (like he did when Kaylee was shot), but in Bushwhacked not only did he have nothing, he also had some trust in Book, and consequently went along with it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.

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Tuesday, October 25, 2005 8:57 AM

SHAMBLEAU


Could somebody point out to me the moment when Book told Mal about his plan and Mal agreed to try it? Because it ain't there, as far as I can tell. How do we know that Mal had been told yet? In fact, Jayne makes a comment while Tracy is listening in to the effect that he's with Book, because he doesn't want to die for Tracy. The implication is that all Book has said up to that point is what we actually hear him say, turn Tracy over.

It's Book after all who starts to say something to Tracy, but Tracy cuts him off by threatening to shoot him if he continues. And nobody else mentions that they've got a plan either, which presumably, since they were all in the room, they've also heard. I could certainly imagine Wash blurting it out.

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Tuesday, October 25, 2005 9:49 AM

JOSSISAGOD


It was an unspoken plan, the crew had been with Book for long enough to trust him, so they didn't need to convey the plan in spoken language, they used their eyes. It sounds weird but some people can do that if they are willing to trust eachother.

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Tuesday, October 25, 2005 9:53 AM

JOSSISAGOD


I'm unsure if Tracy's death was aviodable. on the one hand the crew could have told him about the plan BEFORE he started shooting, on the other, I think the plan required that tracy be in the dark about it.

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Tuesday, October 25, 2005 8:09 PM

MADRIK


Keep in mind of this quote:

"...because I needed a chest wound."
"That can be seen to."

I could have been seen to! Perhaps at this point would be a good spot for Malcom to tell Tracy what was going on. I can see Mal explain this in his clever, witty way: "You need to put some trust in us, hear?" Or something.

Tracy obviously knew that Zoe and Mal "carried him through that war". Tracy trusts them. And no, not because they're saps.

While the cop was brought aboard and the confrontation started, Tracy was chillin... I dont remember the line but he had one. So at this point, Tracy had put some trust in the plan. After the cop left, he said, "That was the plan?" .. Point: What do you think was told to him in between the scenes? Also, why wasn't his wound "seen to" during this time? I mean, they needed to outnumber the cops but Tracy nor Simon had a weapon during the confrontation.

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Wednesday, October 26, 2005 9:38 AM

JOSSISAGOD


"Womack, I think I broke your junk." I never doubted that Tracy trusted them, I think the question was could the crew trust Tracy, after the war Mal and Tracy had a falling out and Mal wasn't sure he could trust Tracy anymore. I still believe that the crew's plan required Tracy to be in the dark though.

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