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Copyright questions?

POSTED BY: JUTIN77
UPDATED: Friday, September 10, 2004 05:57
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Wednesday, May 5, 2004 9:52 AM

JUTIN77


In a discussion that I had on a different topic, I had this conversation "Lalli you wrote "Remember to ask permission for your project from FOX, AND YOU MUST HAVE THE WRITTEN VERSION OF IT. You have no idea how deep into lawshit you can sink if you don't do it by the book, believe me."

I'm working on a film called "Spaced Out" a comedy cartoon and at one point the character is singing "Ballad of Serenity".

I always thought that I didn't need permission if I didn't profit from the copyright infringement.

Please help, that scene is in the begining of the film and we're way past that.



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Wednesday, May 5, 2004 9:58 AM

JASONZZZ



You should look under fair use and other usage "rights"... IANAL, but I believe you can take examples from mix artists who "sample" from different works to make a composite work. I believe you can also use less than 4 bars and still considered ok.


Quote:

Originally posted by JuTin77:
In a discussion that I had on a different topic, I had this conversation "Lalli you wrote "Remember to ask permission for your project from FOX, AND YOU MUST HAVE THE WRITTEN VERSION OF IT. You have no idea how deep into lawshit you can sink if you don't do it by the book, believe me."

I'm working on a film called "Spaced Out" a comedy cartoon and at one point the character is singing "Ballad of Serenity".

I always thought that I didn't need permission if I didn't profit from the copyright infringement.

Please help, that scene is in the begining of the film and we're way past that.







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Wednesday, May 5, 2004 10:00 AM

JUTIN77


any idea on how to post the scene in question so you guys can view it. It's basically the whole song sung by a character (with music) until he gets cut off by another character.

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Wednesday, May 5, 2004 10:54 AM

LASHER99


IANAL either, but I think you would need to get permission from the copyright holder even if you are not profiting from the film. Journalists enjoy certain privliges for review purposes but this is not what you are doing here. You're creating a derivative work for that song which may constitute a copyright violation. It may depend how much of the song you are using but you'd have to dig further into your copyright laws. Remember songs such as "Happy Birthday" were (or maybe still are) subject to a royalty/copyright fee if performed in public. My advice, contact 20th Century Fox in writing, let them know of your intent, provide them the scene from your script and wait for a reply. No response from them does not mean they waive their copyright. Only if you get it in writing will you be in the clear if there is a copyright issue.

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Wednesday, May 5, 2004 11:04 AM

ANNIK


Quote:

Originally posted by lasher99:
IANAL either, but I think you would need to get permission from the copyright holder even if you are not profiting from the film. Journalists enjoy certain privliges for review purposes but this is not what you are doing here. You're creating a derivative work for that song which may constitute a copyright violation. It may depend how much of the song you are using but you'd have to dig further into your copyright laws. Remember songs such as "Happy Birthday" were (or maybe still are) subject to a royalty/copyright fee if performed in public. My advice, contact 20th Century Fox in writing, let them know of your intent, provide them the scene from your script and wait for a reply. No response from them does not mean they waive their copyright. Only if you get it in writing will you be in the clear if there is a copyright issue.



IANAL, but have had to deal with this stuff from time to time. Happy Birthday is still subject to royalty issues last I heard.

However, this scriptwriter might be absolutely fine -- the scene as described sounds satirical, which has its own protections.

Still, its best to check with both Fox and your own legal counsel. What nation are you in? Intellectual property laws are not always consistent in all places, so you may have more leeway in your country than a US resident would have. (Although 'copyright' has fairly wide support in similar ways accordin to the Berne Convention, I believe.)

You most definitely *should* research the matter further.

Cheers,
Annik

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Wednesday, May 5, 2004 11:16 AM

DELIA


As a library science student with a lawyer mother, I can tell you definitely want to look into this. There are a lot a nuances, but fair use will only get you so far, and profit doesn't have to enter into it. Get advice from a lawyer if you can, contact FOX and/or Mutant Enemy, whoever has the copyright, and be prepared to reshoot the scene if you have to.

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Wednesday, May 5, 2004 11:23 AM

ASTRIANA


Chances are that Joss, having written both music and lyrics, holds the copyright to the song. (But make sure you DOUBLE CHECK!) If that's the case, you should be able to contact him through ME to get written permission.

~A~

...I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me.

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Wednesday, May 5, 2004 12:23 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Most of the time when you sign a contract there is a clause in there that specifically states that anything you create belongs to that company, unless special permission is granted for specific things, so, I'd say that is is probably f*x's property.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Friday, May 7, 2004 10:29 AM

JUTIN77


What do you mean contact you to get in contact with Joss?

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Friday, May 7, 2004 10:43 AM

MAUGWAI


The rule for magazines is, you can print up to a certain amount of the song (four lines, I think?) without fear of copyright issues. After that, you must get permission. I'm not sure if that applies to film, but it would make sense.



"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

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Friday, May 7, 2004 10:45 AM

ASTRIANA


Quote:

Originally posted by JuTin77:
What do you mean contact you to get in contact with Joss?

No, no, no... Contact ME (Mutant Enemy)...

~A~

...I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me.

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Friday, May 7, 2004 10:25 PM

JUTIN77


How do I get in contact directly with Mutant Enemy surpassing 20th Fox? I'm just a local film maker... no agent.

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Thursday, September 9, 2004 1:28 PM

FLYINGTAMS


When did we actually hear a ballad of serenity?

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Thursday, September 9, 2004 2:41 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Quote:

Originally posted by FlyingTams:
When did we actually hear a ballad of serenity?


Every single episode of the series. That was the name of the theme song.




wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Thursday, September 9, 2004 4:35 PM

FLYINGTAMS


Ah the title tune, well you two are the only ones calling it that ;)


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Thursday, September 9, 2004 7:32 PM

FIREGUARDIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by JuTin77:

I always thought that I didn't need permission if I didn't profit from the copyright infringement.



Nope. It is probably infringement unless it is a parody. Visit www.copyright.gov and read about copyrights and "fair use."

Darlene Cypser
Inferno Film Productions, LLC

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Thursday, September 9, 2004 7:33 PM

FIREGUARDIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by JuTin77:
How do I get in contact directly with Mutant Enemy surpassing 20th Fox? I'm just a local film maker... no agent.



Haken has the address in the FAQ.

Darlene Cypser
Inferno Film Productions, LLC

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Thursday, September 9, 2004 7:35 PM

FIREGUARDIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:

You should look under fair use and other usage "rights"... IANAL, but I believe you can take examples from mix artists who "sample" from different works to make a composite work. I believe you can also use less than 4 bars and still considered ok.



Nope. Most sample artists are infringing unless they get permission. Most just don't get caught.

Darlene Cypser
Inferno Film Productions, LLC

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Thursday, September 9, 2004 7:37 PM

FIREGUARDIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Astriana:
Chances are that Joss, having written both music and lyrics, holds the copyright to the song. (But make sure you DOUBLE CHECK!)



It depends on his agreement with Fox. If it was a "work for hire" then Fox owns it.

Darlene Cypser
Inferno Film Productions, LLC

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Thursday, September 9, 2004 7:40 PM

FIREGUARDIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by maugwai:
The rule for magazines is, you can print up to a certain amount of the song (four lines, I think?) without fear of copyright issues. After that, you must get permission. I'm not sure if that applies to film, but it would make sense.



That only applies to reviews of the song. It is part of "fair use."

Darlene Cypser
Inferno Film Productions, LLC

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Thursday, September 9, 2004 8:06 PM

JASONZZZ


Fair Use defined as: "reasonable unauthorized copying from a copyrighted work, when the copying does not substantially impair present or potential value of the original work, and in some way advances the public benefit".



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Friday, September 10, 2004 1:30 AM

IAMJACKSUSERNAME

Well, I'm all right. - Mal


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
You should look under fair use and other usage "rights"... IANAL, but I believe you can take examples from mix artists who "sample" from different works to make a composite work. I believe you can also use less than 4 bars and still considered ok.



"The 6th Circuit Court of Appeals in Cincinnati [ruled people must] pay for every musical sample included in their work, including minor, unrecognisable snippets of music." - Court rules samplers must pay, 2004-09-08, Australian IT, http://tinyurl.com/5hnta
--
I am Jack's username
Back in the early 21st century we had wonderful things called libraries.

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Friday, September 10, 2004 1:43 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Quote:

Originally posted by FlyingTams:
Ah the title tune, well you two are the only ones calling it that ;)


Think again. Either Joss or someone at FOX thinks that is what it is called. It is so identified in the intro blurb to the "Joss sings the theme song" special feature on disc 4.



wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Friday, September 10, 2004 5:57 AM

JASONZZZ


Quote:

Originally posted by IamJacksUsername:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
You should look under fair use and other usage "rights"... IANAL, but I believe you can take examples from mix artists who "sample" from different works to make a composite work. I believe you can also use less than 4 bars and still considered ok.



"The 6th Circuit Court of Appeals in Cincinnati [ruled people must] pay for every musical sample included in their work, including minor, unrecognisable snippets of music." - Court rules samplers must pay, 2004-09-08, Australian IT, http://tinyurl.com/5hnta
--
I am Jack's username
Back in the early 21st century we had wonderful things called libraries.




Ouch... That's going to be a difficult standard to uphold, since there are only so many finite ways to arrange notes in a mathematical sense - and even less in a musical sense; especially if you are talking about a small snippet of 2 notes.

IAC, I couldn't find anything with case reviewed by the USCA6 with that in the opinion. Do you have any of the details for the case? Defendents, Plantiffs, case#...

Also, USCA6 is only responding to cases in Kentucky, Michigan, Ohio and Tennessee; so don't know if it has any immediate or apparent effect to other districts.

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