End Dollhouse campaign! by Calhoun

DOLLHOUSE

End Dollhouse campaign!

POSTED BY: CALHOUN
UPDATED: Monday, January 25, 2010 04:29
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VIEWED: 12695
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Thursday, October 15, 2009 8:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:

What makes you believe he's not trying?

Ever so often I see this random quote flashing by as this board's heading:

"I poured my heart and soul into that show. I believed in it with every fibre of my being." - Joss Whedon on Firefly

In earnest, do you think Joss will ever say the same about Dollhouse? I don't. Genius or no, making a good show is hard work. I always love this example from the Out of Gas shooting script:

---------------------
BESTER
Mal. Whaddya need two mechanics for?
MAL
I really don't. Pack your things.
(then)
She got a name?
---------------------

After revising it (how many times?) we eventually got this:

---------------------
BESTER
Mal. Whaddya need two mechanics for?
MAL
I really don't.
---------------------

Period. No "Pack your things." No "She got a name?" (just cutting to the scene where Mal yells "Kaylee!!") The revised version is much more subtle: the former is okay, the latter is memorable.

Now, as for Dollhouse, it feels like the aforementioned shooting script: you can clearly see the hand of Joss in it, but it lacks the coherent brilliancy of Firefly. To answer your question, maybe Joss is trying with Dollhouse, but to make it really good he needs to try again; and again, until it's a shiny little trinket too. And I honestly don't believe he's thus pouring heart and soul into Dollhouse. "Man On the Street" was the only episode I felt he really sat down for to make it memorable as only he can. For the rest, not so much. That, for all purposes and intent, to me qualifies as "not trying."

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 8:35 AM

OPPYH

Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:

What makes you believe he's not trying?

When I started watching Buffy during the second season, I thought I would get a few laughs like I did watching the movie("You're floating").
I never...ever anticipated getting deeply emotionally involved with a tv show. Buffy changed things for me. For the first I realized tv could be better than first rate dramas coming out of Hollywood, and not just "comfort food" as I thought before Buffy. Buffy was the best show on television by a very large margin.
When I heard Joss was working on Firefly, I was upset because I thought he was abandoning Buffy. After watching the first episode on Fox(The Train Job) I was hooked. By the time "Ariel" aired, I was completely, utterly amazed. Lightning had struck twice. I liked Firefly as much as I liked Buffy.

The first episode of Dollhouse did nothing for me.
I didn't care for the characters, and the premise though interesting just wasn't my cup of tea.
The show felt a little too mainstream(CSI, Ghost Whisperer). For the first time since watching Buffy, Joss made a show I could "skip".

Now I know Joss probably has Dollhouse all charted out, and the overall story arc is probably brilliant, but as of now I'm done watching.

I'm sure he is trying hard to make it work, and I feel bad that the viewership is so low. He deserves all the success in the world.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 9:34 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
I'm not sure if there is any such thing as a "true fan", but if there is, I'm pretty sure it's not someone who is a big enough douchebag to think they can declare who is and isn't one, just because they have a differing opinion.

Glad you enjoy Dollhouse. If it gets really good let me know.

Oh, and if you don't like the show....WHY THE HELL ARE YO ARGUING WITH ME?

Principle. I may not like it (I don't dislike it per se either, more neutral), but it just seems prickish to me to demand it be canceled because the guys not doing what you want him to do.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 9:43 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
To answer your question, maybe Joss is trying with Dollhouse, but to make it really good he needs to try again;

I think he's trying something different with Dollhouse, and working outside his comfort zone of "joke-joke-DRAMA-joke-joke-KILL THE MOST LOVABLE CHARACTER" which, even though most of us like, was getting a bit predictable (even before the series was canceled, I was sure either Wash or Kaylee was eventually going to die horrifically).

I respect him for stretching, and trying to expand his repertoire and do something new. In this case, it doesn't seem to be working, but that sometimes happens when you stretch. Maybe he can turn it around for this show, maybe not. Maybe his next project will work, maybe not. It's how it goes - nobody hits a home run every time.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 9:43 AM

STORYMARK

Whoops, double post.

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Friday, October 16, 2009 9:51 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
I've seen you go batty in the RWED(over opinionated) so why stop with politics?

Gee, thanx...I'M over-opinionated, eh? Hoo-kay...and yes, there is hostility here I don't think is necessary, tho' I suppose once one gets hooked into something, it can feel like we "own" it. As to my opinion, I expressed it; I don't like Dollhouse, and I didn't like the character of Buffy herself (which is probably somewhat tainted by the fact I don't like Geller's attitude). That's sufficient opinion, isn't it?

As to Inara and Kaylee--to me, Inara is about as "pedastalled" as anyone could possibly be. The untouchable goddess. And Kaylee's ability to work miracles with Serenity...that's not put on a pedastal? What I saw, in both Firefly AND Buffy, was the men screwing up, but rarely the women. The men did stupid stuff, the women made cracks about it (along with others of the men)...but the women rarely made dumb mistakes.

That's just my opinion.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Friday, October 16, 2009 11:38 AM

STORYMARK

Wait.... miracle worker Engineers who always fix the ship are pretty much a staple of the genre. Why is no one complaining about Scotty being on a pedestal?

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, October 16, 2009 12:51 PM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
As to Inara and Kaylee--to me, Inara is about as "pedastalled" as anyone could possibly be. The untouchable goddess. And Kaylee's ability to work miracles with Serenity...that's not put on a pedastal? What I saw, in both Firefly AND Buffy, was the men screwing up, but rarely the women. The men did stupid stuff, the women made cracks about it (along with others of the men)...but the women rarely made dumb mistakes.

Oh, this is interesting. :) There's probably other threads about this, but we should start another one to discuss it, because I'm curious how a lot of people would weigh in. Each character has her share of supporters and detractors, some who might disagree with you, some who wouldn't.

Now, I think the women did make mistakes. Wash is rightfully pissed at Zoe in War Stories for her non-support, which actually causes the main problem in the episode. River has some tendencies to wander off and cause problems, though after the Reaver massacre, that probably won't feature as much with her. Inara has shown some extremely poor judgment in regards to clients, and also made what I think was a mistake in deciding to leave, though I can understand why she did. Kaylee... Okay, I can't actually think of any times where Kaylee made any mistakes, except that one time when she gets pissed at Simon and starts flirting with Tracy, but that was really minor. Kaylee has, however, shown some naivety and lapses in judgment that I suspect would have gotten her in trouble eventually.

Do the men make mistakes MORE OFTEN? Probably. It could be possible that it's harder for the average audience to laugh at women making mistakes than it is men, because perhaps audiences tend to see women as more vulnerable. Most of the time when the men make mistakes in Firefly, it's played for laughs.

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Friday, October 16, 2009 1:19 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Kaylee's ability to work miracles with Serenity...that's not put on a pedestal?

Wash can also work miracles with Serenity, though from the pilot's chair rather than the engine room. Kaylee is touchy and emotional, which does call attention to Simon putting his foot in his mouth, but neither of them is in the right most of the time. And it's rather amusing to me that you would call someone who gets paid for physical intimacy, among other things, untouchable. Inara isn't untouchable, she's closed off. So is Mal. Neither of them is willing to just come out and say what they're feeling because they have huge blocks around it. They're two of the most fallible characters on the show for this reason. Zoe might be the most 'pedestalled' of the bunch, but she also clearly has her flaws. Her split loyalty can and has caused tension in her marriage, and she's not very good at talking things through when she's upset, as shown by her reaction to Saffron, among other things. Yeah, Mal gets beat up on a lot, but he also saves the day and does the right thing. Jayne kind of bumbles around a bit and messes up, but you definitely want him in a fight and sometimes he can save the day and do the right thing... sometimes. Simon puts his foot in his mouth, but he also fixes people and saves the day. And Wash... well, he saved the day numerous times. He would occasionally argue with his wife and was ambivalent about children, but even with one engine and 20% power the man could land a giant spaceship without seriously injuring anybody. So if you're going to talk about characters on a pedestal, he needs to be included there, too.

[/sig]

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Friday, October 16, 2009 5:40 PM

OPPYH

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
over-opinionated, eh? Hoo-kay...and yes, there is hostility here I don't think is necessary, tho' I suppose once one gets hooked into something, it can feel like we "own" it. As to my opinion, I expressed it; I don't like Dollhouse, and I didn't like the character of Buffy herself (which is probably somewhat tainted by the fact I don't like Geller's attitude). That's sufficient opinion, isn't it?

As to Inara and Kaylee--to me, Inara is about as "pedastalled" as anyone could possibly be. The untouchable goddess. And Kaylee's ability to work miracles with Serenity...that's not put on a pedastal? What I saw, in both Firefly AND Buffy, was the men screwing up, but rarely the women. The men did stupid stuff, the women made cracks about it (along with others of the men)...but the women rarely made dumb mistakes.

That's just my opinion.

Thank you. And about the RWED remark, what I meant to say was you are very vocal about issues you are concerned with. Over opinionated was a little harsh. Sorry.

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Sunday, January 24, 2010 1:27 PM

JAYNEZTOWN

Joss Whedon Looks Back Over Dollhouse

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/97528-Joss-Whedon-Looks-Back
-Over-Dollhouse

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Monday, January 25, 2010 1:19 AM

CALHOUN

OK, I had nothing to watch so I went back and watched the rest of the Dollhouse episodes i'd missed. The later half of season 2 showed much more promise but all in all I am still glad its over. Interesting to see that Joss said he wasnt entirely happy with where he went with Dollhouse.

I hope to see something new from Joss real soon.

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Monday, January 25, 2010 3:09 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Well, my TV schedule shows a new episode to air this Friday on Fox ("Epitaph Two"), so I *guess* that will be the end of this mess, eh?

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Monday, January 25, 2010 4:29 AM

ZEEK

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Well, my TV schedule shows a new episode to air this Friday on Fox ("Epitaph Two"), so I *guess* that will be the end of this mess, eh?

Yep that's the official final episode.

I'm with Calhoun. I'm still glad it's over. Even if it did improve for a few episodes. I just don't think it was capable of sustaining that level of quality.

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