DOLLHOUSE

Should Dollhouse Be Sent To The Attic?

POSTED BY: HAKEN
UPDATED: Sunday, October 11, 2009 15:49
SHORT URL:
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Sunday, October 4, 2009 8:33 PM

HAKEN

Likes to mess with stuffs.


Kelly West over at Cinema Blend poses an interesting question that I'm sure many of us have asked ourselves earlier last season and as it seems some have already made their decision for this season.

Should Dollhouse just go away so that Joss' can move on to hopefully another series that will fair much better?

You can read Kelly West's full article here:

http://www.cinemablend.com/television/Should-Dollhouse-Be-Sent-To-The-
Attic-20217.html








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Sunday, October 4, 2009 9:11 PM

SHINYGOODGUY


It was an interesting article mainly because I feel much the same way. I was anticipating a rock'em sock'em opening with a continuation of what Joss started half-way through the 1st season. But I was disappointed, big time.

Episode 2 showed some promise, Joss didn't knock it out of the park, but he hit the wall and got a double. Is it enough to keep DH on the air? The fact that it's on Friday should give Joss the incentive to get the clean-up hitter to the plate, and fast. The ep 'Instinct' showed that there's a great future, but Fox, and the fans, won't be patient much longer.

If the next ep tanks, look for Fox to start warming up the relief pitcher.

SGG

Tawabawho?

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Sunday, October 4, 2009 9:29 PM

HAKEN

Likes to mess with stuffs.


I hate to say this, but if it was even remotely possible, Joss should dump the current Dollhouse and just continue with what Epitaph One started. I really want to know what happens next with that version.

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Sunday, October 4, 2009 9:29 PM

SIGMANUNKI


I personally never liked this show. The writing is bad, the acting is bad, the disjoint nature of the scenes/etc is bad, etc, etc, etc. And the really sad part is that we all know that Joss can write quite clever stuff and we all know that a lot of the actors are very good at there jobs.

Alan Tudyk is a great example of this. We know that guy can act something fierce. But, I would categorize the portrayal of Alpha was just plain embarrassing. Not that it's Alan's fault. One can only do so much with such a poor script and direction.

I could go on, but I'll stop myself with agreeing with the comic book comment. There's just too much of an infantile nature to the writing in, hell everything about, this show. Hopefully, Joss will get out of that 12 year old, comic book, mentality before he hits his next project. Otherwise, I predict a similar failure.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Sunday, October 4, 2009 10:57 PM

TUJIAOZUO


That article really hits how I feel towards the show. There is more as to why the show doesn't work for me, but it pretty much sums it up. Also this comment-

Quote:


I think the primary problem is that Whedon seems to have come up with this series for Eliza Dushku rather than for himself. To me, that's been the false note from the beginning.



I have been thinking a lot about this lately. Buffy had been developing in Joss' mind for years before he sold the script. On top of that, the show aired five years after the movie, which only gave him more time to develop. And we all know Firefly was the show he held near and dear, and things like that are often slowly developed in your mind before they every hit the paper or word processor. Dollhouse was conceived over lunch, whilst thinking of 'What Eliza needs is a vehicle to star in'. I'm not trying to belittle things conceived on the fly, but I'm just saying I feel that Joss' other shows worked so well because he had so much time thinking everything through and fleshing it out.

Your Indian Pirate Lord,
Ash

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Monday, October 5, 2009 3:46 AM

GWEK


I agree, Ash.

If we compare Joss's creative works to a romantic dynamic, BUFFY (and, by extension, Angel) was his first love, while FIREFLY was his true love. DOCTOR HORRIBLE was a fun and experimental one night stand (possibly while very, very drunk). Where does that leave DOLLHOUSE?

DOLLHOUSE is the first tentative foray into serious dating after a brutal breakup with the True Love.

Further your point, Ash, Joss spent years developing and "living with" BUFFY and FIREFLY before putting them out there. DOLLHOUSE, on the other hand, is the closest to work-for-hire we've seen him do in probably a decade or more.

I don't want to blame Eliza too much, but I frankly don't think she's up to headlining. Even in TRU CALLING, other characters stole the show. Most often, the interesting part of DOLLHOUSE is whatever plot Echo's NOT involved in.

And that leads to another part of the problem with DOLLHOUSE. As the article in the original post notes, there's a lack of teamwork/family. More than that, I think there's really a lack of sympathetic characters. Most of the cast consists of Dolls (who are tough to root for, or, indeed, even consider full-fledged characters) or the staff of the Dollhouse (and even Boyd, the best of them, is morally reprehensible for working for the Dollhouse). Ballard, the only character close to a fully-developed non-villain, is often bland and self-righteous.

So exactly who is one to root for? To feel sympathy for? To "bond" with?

DOLLHOUSE is an interesting concept, but it just hasn't played out. The two episodes we've had so far are a step down from the quality that the show achieved in the last few episodes of Season One... and those, in turn, were a BIG stepe down from the quality of Joss's previous work.

With FIREFLY, Joss started high-quality because of all the lessons he'd learned on BUFFY. So, theoretically, he should really be on fire with DOLLHOUSE, but it's just not paying off.

The main draw this year seems to be the geek-pedigree of the vast array of guest stars they're pulling in. Alex Denisof, multiple cast members from BSG, Summer Glau, heck, even Alan Tudyk kicked it off... Isn't that usually the sign of jumping the shark?

It's time to close the DOLLHOUSE.




www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Monday, October 5, 2009 5:05 AM

ROBSAD79


My friend and I are huge Joss fans but we are disappointed in Dollhouse. We loved it at first and we gave the second season a shot, but we aren't loving it. We find you just can't fall in love with characters like the other shows.

Plus maybe it is us, but we miss the sense of humor in the shows. We just don't see a lot.


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Monday, October 5, 2009 5:57 AM

ZEEK


I'm still not in love with Dollhouse. I think it's time to pull the plug. I really couldn't blame FOX at this point. The ratings are nose diving.

The sad thing is I think Joss is going somewhere with this. I think he just needed to get there a lot quicker.

I won't shed a tear if they close the Dollhouse for good.

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Monday, October 5, 2009 6:01 AM

CHRISISALL


Put Dollhouse in storage & take Firefly OUT.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, October 5, 2009 6:22 AM

SCOUSERATHEART


I worry for Dollhouse if they continue to produce these type of episodes. If they continue with eps of this quality, I would say lets send this show to the attic. I have to agree with the perspective that S2 ep 2 was quite poor. The sub-plots (Topher/Ballard and Mellie/Adelle) were adequate, but the Echo plot was stilted and awkward. I TVR'd the show and watched it with my wife over the weekend. Our assessment: one of the worst eps yet. The problem, frankly, is that FOX wanted an Eliza vehicle, and Joss wants to tell a story with Eliza as only one of the crucial main characters. Whenever Dollhouse gets too Echo-centric, the quality plummets.

I really want Dollhouse to succeed. I really enjoy the eps that further the major themes Joss wants to explore - these Echo eps just get in the way. Imagine a second season where Echo hadn't escaped from Alpha. Tudyk and Dushku rampaging and a functioning Dollhouse trying to keep up. It gets rid of the Echo engagements and features the ensemble cast....

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Monday, October 5, 2009 7:11 AM

KHAMBILO


Wow I guess i am one of the few who wants to see Dollhouse succeed.

This article brought up some interesting comparisons between Joss's early work with Buffy, Angel, and Firefly. I think one reason that loyal Joss fans do not like Dollhouse is because it doesn't have the formulaic group-of-friends-save-the-day-from-the-big-bad concept that Buffy and Angel especially had and even Firefly had a little of. But I think it makes Dollhouse more interesting as a show to not have this concept. I'm glad the Joss is taking on more complex themes and issues than he's done in previous series.

Again for Buffy comparison, and i posted this in an earlier thread, but people who watched epitaph one and liked it are complaining that the second season is not good because it hasn't picked up to those concepts. But for those of you who watched Buffy, the second season of Buffy didn't get off to a great start either: the first episode back When She Was Bad was by far the worst season opener of all seven seasons and it was followed by some of the worst episodes of the series: Incan Mummy Girl, Reptile Boy. But as soon as What's My Line came, the season dramatically picked up, and a handful of episodes later we were introduced to the Angel/Angelus issue, making the second season one of the best of the series.

It's frustrating to me that fans watching the show are that impatient as to not let the show hit it's stride before leaving the boat. It's second season has only had two episodes! Remember season one did not pick up until Man In The Street, which was either five or six episodes in.

It's a great show with several very talented actors on board, and I would love to see it flourish, but that's not going to happen we don't give it a chance.

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Monday, October 5, 2009 7:50 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Actually, Khambilo, I found Season One of Buffy - by far the weakest of its seven seasons - still far and away superior to Dollhouse. Dollhouse has had maybe ONE espisode that's even come close to Buffy's worst episodes, in my opinion.

As for Buffy Season Two, I *liked* the opener, and I liked the third episode ("School Hard").

And that's where the wife and I finally drew the line on Dollhouse; when we were discussing it, we both said at the same time that we'd rather be rewatching our Buffy DVDs than putting any more time into Dollhouse.

And to me, that's the final verdict: If I'd rather be watching something I've already watched multiple times, instead of watching Joss's newest show, that's a pretty strong sign that his latest just isn't up to snuff.

A show grabs me, or it doesn't. Sometimes I come back to it a year or three later, and find out that something's changed, and it's now one of the best things on TV. Give Dollhouse a chance, by all means. If you like it, watch it. As I said in my earlier post, I really hope I can come back in the middle of Season Four and find that it's the best thing that's ever been on TV. But I'm out of patience in waiting for that to happen, so I'm bailing.

Edit to add:

Gwek's post is everything I've been trying to say about this show, only he said it so much better than I.
Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams

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Monday, October 5, 2009 9:38 AM

MANGOLO


I have a hunch, given that Joss is out there raising money for his own new company, that Dollhouse is a hired gun gig at this point and his passions are elsewhere.

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Monday, October 5, 2009 9:42 AM

EVILDINOSAUR


I'm also part of the small group that's still enjoying the show. It's not blowing my mind or anything, but it's entertaining and I'm enjoying it.

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

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Monday, October 5, 2009 11:05 AM

STORYMARK


Given that the ratings are down drastically from their not-so-hot-to-begin-with first year numbers, it may all be a moot point anyway.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, October 5, 2009 11:56 AM

SHINY


I just have one question, and it's the same question I had when I first learned about this show, and its premise:

Who exactly is the audience supposed to identify with? Echo? Caroline? Ballard?

Sure, the themes of identity and free will are very interesting, but in practice we've had active-of-the-week storylines which make it difficult for the audience to become invested in many of the main characters. And since Topher and Adelle are largely responsible for the actives' predicament, we're left with Ballard and Boyd, both of whom have become pretty compromised and complicit. So what characters are we supposed to care about enough to really want to tune in each week?



---

I don't need a gorram back-spaceship driver!!!

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Monday, October 5, 2009 12:32 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Shiny:
I just have one question, and it's the same question I had when I first learned about this show, and its premise:

Who exactly is the audience supposed to identify with?



If only Joss had asked that question....

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, October 5, 2009 12:49 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by khambilo:

I'm glad the Joss is taking on more complex themes and issues than he's done in previous series.




Complex... please. Dollhouse isn't complex. It's an attempt by Joss to be serious. And he's failing utterly. Joss can't do serious. He can do witty banter, etc. But, he can't do serious. Another example of this is the first while of Angel. He tried to go more serious and failed. Wisely, he took a more Buffy direction and the show got a lot better. I don't think that Dollhouse, the way it's structured, would be able to be redone in that way though.


Quote:

Originally posted by khambilo:

But as soon as What's My Line came, the season dramatically picked up, and a handful of episodes later we were introduced to the Angel/Angelus issue, making the second season one of the best of the series.




You realise you're comparing apples and oranges, right? Do you honestly expect something like that to happen when season one wasn't good?


Quote:

Originally posted by khambilo:

It's frustrating to me that fans watching the show are that impatient as to not let the show hit it's stride before leaving the boat. It's second season has only had two episodes! Remember season one did not pick up until Man In The Street, which was either five or six episodes in.

It's a great show with several very talented actors on board, and I would love to see it flourish, but that's not going to happen we don't give it a chance.




I'm a Joss fan and I thought the show sucked from day one. In fact, I recall only one good episode. Can't remember the name of the ep, but Tim Minear wrote it. And there was this thing called comedy in it. Go figure.

Btw, a show can have the best actors that exist on it. But, if the script is horrid, along with the direction, then what can they do?

Dollhouse is one dimensional from every angle. And if it hasn't given some sort of richness in any aspect to date, what hope is there?

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Monday, October 5, 2009 12:52 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by Shiny:
I just have one question, and it's the same question I had when I first learned about this show, and its premise:

Who exactly is the audience supposed to identify with?



If only Joss had asked that question....




Indeed. Not to mention all those other questions.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Monday, October 5, 2009 1:29 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Hard to argue with anything Sigma and Story have said...

I didn't watch a single one of Joss's shows when they were on the air originally. I "found" Buffy quite by accident, because I was on sabbatical from a job and bored one afternoon, and there was nothing else even a little bit watchable on the tube, and it was - literally - 114º and 90% humidity outside. So I flipped the channel to a Buffy rerun in syndication (FX network), and said, "Hey, there's that 'American Pie' girl." Only she was a vampire. And kind of a hot-looking dominatrix type, too. And then a few minutes later, "Hey, there's that Scott Evil kid." So I got curious. And I watched. And the next day, I watched again. I was in the middle of rebuilding one of my cars at the time, enjoying my time off, and Buffy happened to come on about the time of day when it just got too damned hot to work outside anymore. So it became a bit of a habit for me to watch it.

I told my wife, and she quite literally laughed at me for watching a show called "Buffy". She'd heard of it, and thought it sounded stupid. I convinced her to watch one. It was better than she expected, she admitted. So we started watching together. Then I bought Season One on DVD, so we could see it from the start. Then Season Two, and so on. And we got hooked. And the opening scene from the Season One premiere had us both laughing and saying, "I don't think this is going to be like other shows..."

Dollhouse has never given me one of those moments.

Angel gave me several. Buffy gave me dozens. Firefly hooked me when Mal kicked Crow through the engine. Dollhouse hasn't has a single moment that made me say, "Wow!" Okay - it came close; Mellie being an active kind of threw me. But then they tossed that aside, and it's never really come up in any kind of meaningful way again.

Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams

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Tuesday, October 6, 2009 4:17 AM

GWEK


Kham, I'm almost sorry to reply to your message because I don't want you to feel personally attacked. However, you're the one who best expressed the counterpoint, so you get the hit! Nothing personal!

Quote:

Originally posted by khambilo:
Wow I guess i am one of the few who wants to see Dollhouse succeed.



I want it to succeed, too. But I want it to succeed because it's a good show, not because FOX ignored the ratings.

Honestly, based on ratings from last season, as well as general lack of quality, the show shouldn't have been renewed for a second season. I read somewhere that it was quite possibly the lowest-rated network show ever to be renewed. That's not a great claim to fame.

Quote:

This article brought up some interesting comparisons between Joss's early work with Buffy, Angel, and Firefly. I think one reason that loyal Joss fans do not like Dollhouse is because it doesn't have the formulaic group-of-friends-save-the-day-from-the-big-bad concept that Buffy and Angel especially had and even Firefly had a little of.


I can't speak for others, but any "Joss forumla" has little to do with it. I don't give a good gorram about teamwork: Joss hasn't given me any characters I want to care about (as multiple other posters have noted).

If you want to talk formula, there's actually PLENTY of formula in DOLLHOUSE. In fact, part of my problem with DOLLHOUSE is that we've seen it done before, and better.

Consider the first season "triangle" of Ballard-Mellie-Caroline/Echo. We've got a hero with a "knight in shining armor" complex caught between trying to save an ethereal brunette who's been mentally screwed up by a super-corporation and the possibility of having an earthy, very supportive, somewhat zaftig brown-haired girl who is very sexual and a little awkward at times.

Yep, it's just Simon, River, and Kaylee again.

In Boyd and Ballard we see an older male who is protective of the "special" girl in his care (in the case of Boyd, with no romantic interest whatsoever). That's the Watcher-Slayer dynamic, or even Mal-River.

And Topher... Why not just call him Bizzarro-Xander?

The episode where the Dolls "escape" and have to piece together what's going on? Done better on both BUFFY and ANGEL.

I could go on, but my point is that there's a LOT of "typical Joss" in DOLLHOUSE. It just feels--to me, at least--like it's no Joss really doing it, so much as someone "trying to feel like Joss."

Quote:

interesting as a show to not have this concept. I'm glad the Joss is taking on more complex themes and issues than he's done in previous series.


The concepts of freedom, free will, and identity are themes he's played with in all of his shows.

The fact that they appear against a more unsavory backdrop here doesn't make them any more "complex."

Quote:

Again for Buffy comparison, and i posted this in an earlier thread, but people who watched epitaph one and liked it are complaining that the second season is not good because it hasn't picked up to those concepts.


Personally, I didn't love EPITATH ONE, but what it did well (and I think this is what people responded to) is that it gave us characters to CARE about. After one episode, I cared more about the characters introduced in EPITATH ONE than I do about Caroline or Adele or Boyd after an entire season.

Unlike the rest of DOLLHOUSE, EPITATH ONE gave us someone we can root for.

Quote:

But for those of you who watched Buffy, the second season of Buffy didn't get off to a great start either.


Without addressing what episodes are better than what other episodes, it comes down to simple experience. BTVS S2 was Joss Whedon's second season of television. DOLLHOUSE S2 is is fourteenth or fifteenth.

He's better than what he's giving us.

Quote:

It's frustrating to me that fans watching the show are that impatient as to not let the show hit it's stride before leaving the boat.


It's frustrating to me that DOLLHOUSE hasn't really hit it's stride yet in over a dozen episodes.

Quote:

It's second season has only had two episodes! Remember season one did not pick up until Man In The Street, which was either five or six episodes in.


If a show takes 5 or 6 episodes to have a good episode--and then some of the episodes that follow aren't very good--it's NOT A GOOD SHOW.

Most successful shows establish their identity within 3-5 episodes, because unless there's a specific reason to watch, a casual audience won't last much longer than that.

The ONLY reason I've stayed with DOLLHOUSE for so long is because of my faith in Joss Whedon. I know I'm certainly not alone in that. Without Joss's name attached, would we be giving it yet another chance week after week? I think not.

Quote:

It's a great show with several very talented actors on board, and I would love to see it flourish, but that's not going to happen we don't give it a chance.


How many chances exactly are we supposed to give it?!?

At this point, DOLLHOUSE has roughly the same number of episodes as FIREFLY.

Do you think the two shows can be considered comparable in terms of quality, caliber and substance? At this point in FIREFLY, Joss Whedon was giving us Jubal Early and a new chapter in the dynamic between Mal and River. With DOLLHOUSE, we get glandularly-induced breastfeeding.

Does that seem right to you?

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Tuesday, October 6, 2009 6:17 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I think when it comes to matters concerning Dollhouse, I'm just going to abdicate and let Gwek do my talking for me from here on out, because he (or she - we don't judge) has tapped directly into my brain and might as well be reading my mind on this issue.

I gave Dollhouse SO MANY MORE CHANCES than I would have given any other sub-par show. TSCC was, quite honestly, a better show, and I bailed on it. Heroes is FAR superior to Dollhouse in every imaginable way, and I bailed on it midway through Season Two. Lost might well be the better show, but I didn't even get through the pilot of that one. A show grabs me, or it doesn't. It keeps me interested, or it doesn't.

Truth be told, I've given Dollhouse more chances than I think I've ever given ANY show, and only because Joss's name is attached to it. His other shows grabbed me because of the stories and characters, and had nothing to do with his name. And that is as it should be.

Khambilo seems to be saying that we should afford Dollhouse some special consideration just because of Joss. I'm pointing out that I already did that. More than once, more than twice.

Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams

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Tuesday, October 6, 2009 6:58 AM

GWEK


Thanks, Mike. For the record, it's he, not she (George).


www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Tuesday, October 6, 2009 10:06 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
TSCC was, quite honestly, a better show, and I bailed on it. Heroes is FAR superior to Dollhouse in every imaginable way, and I bailed on it midway through Season Two. Lost might well be the better show, but I didn't even get through the pilot of that one.

I concur. Precisely, in point of fact.
Currently, Alias is my thing. New stuff like CHUCK & Burn Notice are must-sees for me.
It boggles my mind that a Joss Whedon show leaves me so "meh."


The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, October 6, 2009 10:20 AM

SHINY


Quote:

Originally posted by GWEK:
At this point in FIREFLY, Joss Whedon was giving us Jubal Early and a new chapter in the dynamic between Mal and River. With DOLLHOUSE, we get glandularly-induced breastfeeding.



You win the thread.

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Tuesday, October 6, 2009 12:27 PM

ZEEK


I have to say that this thread is a shining example that Joss fans aren't sheep. Lots of trolls come around saying we would love anything with Joss's name attached. That just isn't true. Heck there are people on this site who don't like Angel and Buffy. They aren't shunned. We all have valid opinions. IMO Joss still has a stellar record. Even if Dollhouse is the one let down.

Bring on Cabin in the Woods!

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Tuesday, October 6, 2009 12:41 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Zeek:
I have to say that this thread is a shining example that Joss fans aren't sheep. Heck there are people on this site who don't like Angel and Buffy.


I shun peeps that don't like Buffy season seven...
*FEEL THE SHUN*
Angel? That's an aquired taste IMO.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, October 6, 2009 1:59 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Shiny:
Quote:

Originally posted by GWEK:
At this point in FIREFLY, Joss Whedon was giving us Jubal Early and a new chapter in the dynamic between Mal and River. With DOLLHOUSE, we get glandularly-induced breastfeeding.



You win the thread.



Abso-friggin-lutely.

And George? Good to know ya - it's always nice to put a face with a name. Or a name with a username. :)

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Tuesday, October 6, 2009 2:02 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Zeek:
I have to say that this thread is a shining example that Joss fans aren't sheep. Heck there are people on this site who don't like Angel and Buffy.


I shun peeps that don't like Buffy season seven...
*FEEL THE SHUN*
Angel? That's an aquired taste IMO.



Hey, I *love* Buffy S7. One of the very best series finales ever.

Of course, I thought Angel's series finale was even better... But I can see it being an acquired taste. There was some really weird stuff in there, what with Pylea and all.

Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams

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Tuesday, October 6, 2009 2:14 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Hey, I *love* Buffy S7. One of the very best series finales ever.


Equaled only IMO bt Star Trek TNG & Alias.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, October 6, 2009 3:22 PM

TUJIAOZUO


Quote:

Originally posted by Zeek:
I have to say that this thread is a shining example that Joss fans aren't sheep. Lots of trolls come around saying we would love anything with Joss's name attached. That just isn't true. Heck there are people on this site who don't like Angel and Buffy. They aren't shunned. We all have valid opinions. IMO Joss still has a stellar record. Even if Dollhouse is the one let down.

Bring on Cabin in the Woods!



It's so funny, because in a friendly sci-fi debate the first thing so many non-Whedon fans usually say out of the gate is we are the sheeple. I don't think it's the case either. While there may be a few out there that are hard core 'Joss Whedon can do no wrong and he is my god', we're kinda a finicky lot. I also think Dollhouse has made a few of us less enthusiastic and more err on the side of caution, because it's such a low point in his filmography (at least it has with me and my friends).

I still love Buffy. But Angel? I watched it during high school via cable reruns. Great then, but now, as Niska would say "Not so solid."

I do however have very special places in my heart for Lorne and Fred.

Your Indian Pirate Lord,
Ash

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Tuesday, October 6, 2009 3:28 PM

PLATONIST


Yes, send to attic.

In any industry, there are hits and misses.

Dollhouse is a miss for all the reasons GWEK and Ash stated so eloquently.

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Wednesday, October 7, 2009 7:37 AM

KHAMBILO


Quote:

Originally posted by GWEK:
Kham, I'm almost sorry to reply to your message because I don't want you to feel personally attacked. However, you're the one who best expressed the counterpoint, so you get the hit! Nothing personal!




Don't worry, I don't take any of it personally.

You raised some good points, but I'm going to keep watching it simply because I enjoy it and I do find the characters relatable.

This more than anything boils down not to argument of quality, but rather to an argument of taste. I watch and like Dollhouse because it appeals to me. It's the same reason why an atrocious shows like One Tree Hill or Secret Life of the American Teenager (sorry if you're a fan of these) can last for several seasons despite horrid acting and writing. People like the worn out teen drama formula, so they watch it, like it, and pay no attention to quality.


In short, my vote is to not send it to the attic. I enjoy it and I'm not asking anyone here to like it simply because Joss is doing it. If you've given it a chance, and still don't like it, do as Kwicko said and rewatch Buffy or any other Joss series for that matter.

To those of you who are simply reading this thread, if you're on the fence right now, keep watching. The best is yet to come for season 2 (ex: Summer Glau's role coming up, and the return to the world of Epitaph One with Felicia Day.)

And if you haven't seen any Dollhouse yet, give it a shot, because, regardless of what the show's detractors on this thread may say, you may find that it appeals to you.


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Wednesday, October 7, 2009 7:44 AM

PEACEKEEPER

Keeping order in every verse


I'm not a great fan of Dollhouse personally.I find it watchable and that's about it.But seeing it go off the air prematurely will send alarm bells around TV world when it comes to Joss.If it gets cancelled I don't see how Joss is going to be asked to work on another project in the near future. I fear that TV execs will be thinking,"two cancelled shows concurrently,are the viewers trying to tell us something?". I don't echo that sentiment but I fear that could be the death knell!!

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!

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Wednesday, October 7, 2009 8:48 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by khambilo:
I think one reason that loyal Joss fans do not like Dollhouse is because it doesn't have the formulaic group-of-friends-save-the-day-from-the-big-bad concept that Buffy and Angel especially had and even Firefly had a little of.



That's cute, that after we all state clearly what we don't like.... you tell us what our real reasons are....

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, October 7, 2009 8:57 AM

MANGOLO


Quote:

Originally posted by peacekeeper:
I'm not a great fan of Dollhouse personally.I find it watchable and that's about it.But seeing it go off the air prematurely will send alarm bells around TV world when it comes to Joss.If it gets cancelled I don't see how Joss is going to be asked to work on another project in the near future. I fear that TV execs will be thinking,"two cancelled shows concurrently,are the viewers trying to tell us something?". I don't echo that sentiment but I fear that could be the death knell!!



Actually, I think it would lead to more Dr. Horrible type projects and that could only be a good thing. I think Joss is struggling with some personal demons on this show and it is showing. He is trying too hard to make the show deep and at the same time trying to hit the marks to get a wide audience (usually with shallow expectable hooks). Going back to Dr. Horrible type productions would leave him with his fan base and let him be just Joss without the pressure from a network for big numbers.

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Wednesday, October 7, 2009 8:58 AM

GWEK


I don't think cancellation of DOLLHOUSE would send up a warning sign about Joss necessarily. In fact, if anything, the atrociously low ratings of the lingering show would be a problem. Professionally, a mercy killing might be in Whedon's best interest.

Being associated with a failure is not as big an issue in the entertainment industry as it is in other industries.

Tim Minear has worked on 7 shows (generally as a producer or exec producer and writer) since ANGEL. Dollhouse is the first one to be renewed (and I think the second that wasn't cancelled midway through the first season).

M. Night Shamaylan's past few movies have been critical (and financial, I believe) failures, yet he still gets to make blockbuster movies.

Nah, Joss will be just fine.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Wednesday, October 7, 2009 9:08 AM

PEACEKEEPER

Keeping order in every verse


Quote:

Originally posted by GWEK:
I don't think cancellation of DOLLHOUSE would send up a warning sign about Joss necessarily. In fact, if anything, the atrociously low ratings of the lingering show would be a problem. Professionally, a mercy killing might be in Whedon's best interest.

Being associated with a failure is not as big an issue in the entertainment industry as it is in other industries.

Tim Minear has worked on 7 shows (generally as a producer or exec producer and writer) since ANGEL. Dollhouse is the first one to be renewed (and I think the second that wasn't cancelled midway through the first season).

M. Night Shamaylan's past few movies have been critical (and financial, I believe) failures, yet he still gets to make blockbuster movies.

Nah, Joss will be just fine.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

Oh God yeah,what was that atrocious pile of garbage with Paul Giammati and the girl in the swimming pool.Awful,awful film.

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!

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Wednesday, October 7, 2009 11:33 AM

TUJIAOZUO


Sounds like this week's Episode has to deliver:

Quote:


God, I can’t say who I am (publically) but here’s what I know and I will stand by this and bet money it will be confirmed:
There was a meeting today in which staff were basically told ratings need to go UP in order to get a hold and come back on the 23rd, stay the same and they’d consider.. though likely haitus, and if it goes down, it’s out.
Advertisers were basically told that as far as month-by-month ad-buy ins for the network Fox’s schedule has some changes in it, including Fox being TBA for Friday nights after the 23rd.
Fox is concerned that the problem with Dollhouse isn’t fixable, and that they believe that they might have better options Friday night.
That includes a lot of talk about rotating “Glee” to a repeat on Friday night to give it a double-viewing for a while to pickup steam in a show it really believes in, and that it sees as a potential money train.



It's from TV By The Numbers: http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/10/06/fox-to-dollhouse-improve-ratings-
or-else/29707


It does make sense from Fox's standpoint. Glee has a massive, rabid fan base. A double viewing ensures people who are hearing the rave reviews but don't necessarily have time on Wed to watch (or know how to work Hulu, like my parents) to get into the show.

I suspect it won't deliver the goods and will get yanked. Which means Summer's episodes won't be aired and will have to be viewed via more questionable means. I'm ok with that though

Your Indian Pirate Lord,
Ash

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Wednesday, October 7, 2009 1:52 PM

GWEK


GLEE isn't great, but I'd say it's about 10 times better than DOLLHOUSE.

It's a shame that DOLLHOUSE (fairly likely) won't have the opportunity to achieve it's potential, but I certainly won't feel the loss like of FIREFLY (or, to be honest, WONDER FALLS or DRIVE or THE INSIDE).

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Friday, October 9, 2009 8:15 PM

PACHELBEL


Quote:

Originally posted by GWEK:
GLEE isn't great, but I'd say it's about 10 times better than DOLLHOUSE.

It's a shame that DOLLHOUSE (fairly likely) won't have the opportunity to achieve it's potential, but I certainly won't feel the loss like of FIREFLY (or, to be honest, WONDER FALLS or DRIVE or THE INSIDE).

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."



Right there with ya! I stopped watching Dollhouse after the first episode of season 2. I still mourn the loss of Wonderfalls and Drive!

If you are looking for something else on Friday nights, try Sanctuary.

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Friday, October 9, 2009 8:43 PM

SIGMANUNKI


I've actually been thinking a bit about the teamwork thing. I don't necessarily think that the lack of it is necessarily a problem. It's the lack of teamwork without conflict. I mean, you watch the show, and know that there are people working against each-other and whatnot (I talking within the Dollhouse). But, that is nothing more than background. So, what one gets is an uneasy feel. But, only at times when the plot specifically requires it. Otherwise, it's like the tension doesn't exist and nothing is wrong.

I think that this could be a point of interest. Namely, make the focus of the show be those interactions rather than something off to the side at best. So, make the show more about the players with the dolls story-lines as background/plot drivers than the dolls themselves. In other words, turn Dollhouse on its head.

There are two problems that I see with this idea though. The first is, I'm not sure if the change is possible. It is a rather drastic change in focus. The second is, I don't think, with the quality thus far, that the writers are even remotely skilled enough to be able to spin such a web of intrigue.

Thoughts?

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Saturday, October 10, 2009 6:35 AM

PACHELBEL


Quote:

Originally posted by GWEK:

Honestly, based on ratings from last season, as well as general lack of quality, the show shouldn't have been renewed for a second season. I read somewhere that it was quite possibly the lowest-rated network show ever to be renewed. That's not a great claim to fame.



I always figured Dollhouse was renewed because Fox didn't want another Firefly on its hands. They saw Joss Whedon + low Friday night ratings = future gold mine! Well, they backed the wrong horse.

Also, wasn't Dollhouse only renewed for another 13 episodes? On network TV, that's not a sign of confidence. That's hedging your bets. If the show bombs, they can pull it with less sunk costs. Then they can turn around and release "Dollhouse - The Complete Second Season, including 7 that never aired!"

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Saturday, October 10, 2009 9:20 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


As far as the thirteen episode order, that is fairly common with all but the most established shows, then they wait for the ratings of the first few episodes to decide whether or not to order the "back nine." Depending on when they make that decision, or the decision to cancel, all of those thirteen might not have been filmed yet and might not be if the decision is negative.



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Saturday, October 10, 2009 1:30 PM

TUJIAOZUO


Yeah, thirteen is the standard for most shows when they start a new season. If they keep their ratings up, they get what's called the back nine, which makes the season a full 22 eps. Pretty much everyone gets that treatment, unless you're a powerhouse like Law & Order: SVU. I do believe they just get an automatic full season but then again their demo numbers are HUGE and they are an NBC staple.

It looks like Dollhouse lives to see another day. The ratings went up, so no FOX guillotine for now. Still, I don't think they're going to get their back nine. Even if they do and prove me wrong (more power too you, plucky little show) I don't see getting renewed for S3 in the cards.

I've been hearing the episode was good, so it looks like Hulu and I have a date.

Your Indian Pirate Lord,
Ash

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Saturday, October 10, 2009 3:25 PM

RALLEM


Last season I wasn't too impressed with Dollhouse at first, but began to like it more and more as the season went on, until you could say I loved it. I was expecting something in line with what happened at the end of last season to begin this season, but that didn't happen and all I got was confused to the point where I didn't even watch the entire season premiere and haven't tuned into Dollhouse since. To me Dollhouse is dead.



http://www.swyzzlestyx.com/index.html

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Sunday, October 11, 2009 3:20 PM

DARKJESTER


As for me, I still look forward to Friday nights to watch Dollhouse. I still enjoy the non-insipid dialogue (the main reason I stopped watching the 2nd Stargate) and interesting turn of phrase.

There are folks who are huge Buffy fans who never got into Angel, Buffy and Angel fans who never liked Firefly, and fans who ONLY like Firefly. I like them all, for differing reasons. And knowing that we'll get even occasional episodes like "Epitaph One" means I'll keep watching Dollhouse.



MAL "You only gotta scare him."
JAYNE "Pain is scary..."


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Sunday, October 11, 2009 3:49 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by DarkJester:
As for me, I still look forward to Friday nights to watch Dollhouse. I still enjoy the non-insipid dialogue (the main reason I stopped watching the 2nd Stargate) and interesting turn of phrase.

There are folks who are huge Buffy fans who never got into Angel, Buffy and Angel fans who never liked Firefly, and fans who ONLY like Firefly. I like them all, for differing reasons. And knowing that we'll get even occasional episodes like "Epitaph One" means I'll keep watching Dollhouse.



MAL "You only gotta scare him."
JAYNE "Pain is scary..."




I love Buffy, Angel, and Firefly, and even like some of the comics, but I just can't take Dollhouse.

I understand that others disagree, and respect their right to do so.

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