GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

The Great Jayne Debate!

POSTED BY: KEF
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 4, 2002 07:05
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 4891
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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 10:26 PM

MOPBUCKET


Howdy All,

Just thought I'd chime in.

Why would Jayne want to suddenly leave early after seeing the extent of River's injuries and seeing Simon save someone.

Put yourself in Jayne's shoes.

You're screwing someone over, someone you don't like. Suddenly you see them saving other peoples lives and find out just how bad they really had it. If I'm Jayne I either A) Change my mind about screwing them over or B) Hate the fact that I'm suddenly feeling guilty and want to get the whole thing over with before I learn even more about how cool these people really are.

I'm guessing B. On the whole I'm aggreeing with the argument that Kef put out.

Also, if Jayne was trying to get them out before the Feds arrive don't you think he'd be a little more cautious when he was trying to escape with the Tams? He turns his back after opening the door. Something someone on the lookout would never do, but something that someone who is feeling guilty about doing the whole charade might do.

As for the whole "assumption" thing. If you've ever done a deconstruction or read any post-modern philosophy you know you can't do anything without making assumptions. If you assume nothing you can't survive or do anything intelligent at all. I'd like to see someone live one day without making any assumptions. Think about it. I don't think I could survive one day without going insane. Don't mean to sound harsh, but hey, them's the ropes :). Nothin' personal.

Oh, before i forget. Simon didn't kill his man if I remember correctly. He placed his knee over the man's heart, which would not cause death unless held over a prolongued period. Instead it would cause decreased blood flow as well as a decided lack of air, both of which would lead to unconsciousness long before death. Also...again if my memory is correct...the blue dudes sonically boom stick one of the guys before moving on. Since Jayne broke his dudes neck I'm assuming they fry the guy Simon disabled.

Anyhow that's just my 2 cents.

PS-Is it just me or at high altitude (2 minutes from atmo escape) the air would be so thin it would either cause asphyxia or make it nearly impossible to talk?

PSS-Is it just me or is mentioning the altitude thing make me waaaaaaaaaaaaay too nerdy/geeky? DOH!



It's a bird, it's a plane...
No it's a guy in blue tights and a red cape...

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 11:12 PM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by Mopbucket:
Anyhow that's just my 2 cents.

Cool stuff!
Quote:

PS-Is it just me or at high altitude (2 minutes from atmo escape) the air would be so thin it would either cause asphyxia or make it nearly impossible to talk?

PSS-Is it just me or is mentioning the altitude thing make me waaaaaaaaaaaaay too nerdy/geeky? DOH!

Actually, he would black out long before he asphyxiated or lost the ablity to talk (in that order) But how about this- Wash said they'd be out of atmo in five minutes. Mal then knocks Jayne unconcious and sticks him in the airlock with a two-way radio. How does Mal know Jayne's going to wake up before they're out of atmo?

We have to remember people that in the end, this is just a TV show. A scriptwriter has to stick to schedule. Do you really think he's sitting down and working out all these little freakin details? Or that he can anticipate half the stuff we pick up on?

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 12:00 AM

PANIC


So here's my take on Jayne's betrayal. I think the timing of Simon finishing the initial scan (determining the extent of her injuries) and Jayne deciding it was time to leave are, indeed, related. Jayne wanted to leave to rendezvous with the Feds at the earliest time possible. In order to have River and Simon come along willingly, he needed to let Simon finish the scan first. Its as simple as that. (This is Jayne we're talking about, simple is what he does best.)

I do, however, believe that Jayne was beginning to regret his decision by this point, but I truly don't think that he ever changed his mind. He had his mind changed for him when he was double-crossed by the Fed agent in charge. It seems that Jayne is learning from this mistake, but I disagree with the Jayne apologists who want to redeem Jayne prematurely and fancy that some amount of unbetrayal was going on.

Clearly these are just my opinions, and I may well be wrong. No offence meant to anyone who feels differently.

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 1:16 AM

HOOK


Quote:

Originally posted by Thegn:
Finally, someone is beginning to understand. You're halfway there. You just need to stop embellishing it so much. That is not my assumption. I'm not assuming anything. On one case, you have to come up with an unwritten explanation to a 20 minute discrepancy and in the other case you don't. One conclusion conserves the storyline the other one doesn't. Which one the writers meant, I don't know. All I am telling you is that in your conclusion, you must dismiss the sequence of these events, and in the other case you don't have to, and as a result of that dismissal you have a 20 minute discrepancy for which you must make up an explanation, because the explanation for it is not there.



There are two things you are missing from your argument, first the writers wanted the audiance to know about rivers condition, an explination for River's mental problems. Simply put the writers HAD to let Simon finish the dignostic so we the audiance would know.

Second you are forgetting one small event the occured between when Simon explained to Jayne River's condition and when Jayne told simon that they had to go, and that is when jayne reached to touch the 3d read-out and Simon stopped him by grabbing his hand then jayne pulled it away and glared at Simon...it is only then that jayne anounces that is time to leave...I have heard many FACTS in this argument about Jayne's unbetrayel but they all seem to ignore the fact that at the very moment he is supposedly changing his mind is also the point in the scene at which Jayne is most anoyed at Simon and reminded of why he doesn't like him in the first place...I ask 'Why would the writers put that part in there, if not to convay that Jayne is about to betray Simon and River?'

I freely admit that durring that scene Jayne is showing simpathy for River and may very well be thinking about not betraying them but when Simon grabs his hand he is instantly galvanized in his intent to betray him.

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 5:24 AM

DELVO


I don't think the not-being-allowed-to-touch-the-image thing matters. I think it was just a part of how those two interact. But by that time, Jayne had already taken an inordinate interest in what Simon was doing and what it meant for River.

Anyway, the whole idea of Jayne rushing them out to meet the Feds is hopelessly silly for one simple reason: They're already in Fed territory and they were going to be sitting still for 20 minutes and then following a preset path back out. Under these circumstances, their capture, whether in that room in 5 minutes or on the way out in 25, was already completely assured if he'd just sit back and follow through; changing course and rushing can can not possibly serve ANY purpose but escape. And even if it had been part of the plan to rush them out like that for no reason, Jayne wouldn't have been acting so rushed/panicked; he felt that way because the plans had just then changed on HIM, too, as much as they had on Simon.

Plus, Jayne isn't a hesitating type. He does what he thinks should be done as soon as he figures out what it is. Remember when Mal figured out that there were Reavers on that other ship, for example, and everyone else stood around looking stupid and asking why Mal ordered them off with no explanation? Only Jayne acted immediately and with singleminded focus, and he didn't even know the reason for the order. So when he suddenly does something and is acting jittery about it, you can figure he just then decided to do it... especialy if, right before that, he was already taking an interest in one or two of the possible reasons why he might do so (which would seem to have been put in there to tell us a bit about what he's thinking/feeling; after all Simon could have babbled his discoveries for the audience to Jayne who just snaps back and him "Shut up and finish your work"). And in this case, following the actor's behavior happens to lead to the same conclusion as the timing issue (the fact that there's no possible reason to rush but escape).

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 5:27 AM

WHISKEYMESSIAH


No doubt that this is a great debate! Keep it up guys!

I'm not going to beat a dead horse - It seems to me that all points have been covered up to now. Instead I've got a new angle to check out.

What if Jayne NEVER felt any remorse over his conduct? I have to posit this - What if Jayne has just enough cunning to play on Mal's sometimes misguided sense of loyalty and mercy.

We know that Jayne is a great survivor as well as a habitual liar. Could it be that as he sat in that airlock about to die that he realized that Mal wasn't going to let him live? Could that somewhat dense brain of his have come up with that last statement only to save his ass? Could it be that he only said it to make Mal think that he was turning over a new leaf?

I admit that it seems unlikely, but it would add a whole new dimension to Jayne - maybe he's just not as dumb as he seems and was able to see a way out.

Any thoughts?

The Whiskey Messiah

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 5:27 AM

WHISKEYMESSIAH


Sorry for the double post - how do I delete?

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 7:50 AM

WHATNOW


If he changed his mind then why did he ask for the money from the alliance officer?

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 9:14 AM

BOBKNAPTOR


This is a very spirited debate. I like it.

How many shows on television can you sit and discuss in this kind of depth?

(I can just see it now... What do you think Heather Locklear's character really MEANT by sleeping with that girl's boyfriend in Melrose place? do you think she felt guilty about it, or is she just that evil? hehehe)

Joss rocks. How does he come up with these characters that we all care so much about so quickly?

______________
Running low on Firefly quotes.... must replenish my supply on Friday... (is there a new episode this Friday?)

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 9:41 AM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by bobknaptor:
This is a very spirited debate. I like it.

How many shows on television can you sit and discuss in this kind of depth?

(I can just see it now... What do you think Heather Locklear's character really MEANT by sleeping with that girl's boyfriend in Melrose place? do you think she felt guilty about it, or is she just that evil? hehehe)

Joss rocks. How does he come up with these characters that we all care so much about so quickly?

______________
Running low on Firefly quotes.... must replenish my supply on Friday... (is there a new episode this Friday?)


Amen!

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 9:48 AM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by bobknaptor:
Running low on Firefly quotes.... must replenish my supply on Friday... (is there a new episode this Friday?)


Unfortunately no new Firefly till Dec 6.

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 10:23 AM

RHEA


Quote:

Originally posted by Thegn:
2. Jayne didn't change his mind. A has no connection to B. In other words you dismiss the sequence of those events, and thereby leaving 20 minutes early is just an unexplained event. Because no where in the story does it explain why Jayne felt he needed to leave 20 minutes early. So if you accept this conclusion you must speculate to explain this, because it's not in the story.



Thegn, I think reasonable minds may differ here. He may have planned all along to announce the change in plans at this time, leaving no chance for Simon to really think about WHY the plans might have changed. If I were Jayne and I needed those twenty minutes to seal the deal, take the money and run, I would have announced it right about when he did. And I certainly wouldn't announe the change in plans the second Simon woke up and give him time to think about what might be happening.

I don't see how we can conclude one way or the other based on what we saw onscreen. As far as I'm concerned the argument could go either way.

However, I'm inclined to think that he didn't change his mind - it's not like he immediately started a fight with the Alliance cops when they showed up. Instead, he bellied right up to collect his money.

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 10:31 AM

KEF


Y'know, has anyone considered the possibility that maybe they PURPOSELY made it ambigous? That they set it up so as to make it look like Jayne MAY have changed his mind about turning them in, but we're not supposed to know for sure? That they WANTED to leave us guessing?

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 10:32 AM

KEF


Despite saying what I said in my previous post - what follows is what I believe has now become My Official Jayne Theory:

While I don't think that Jayne changed his mind about turning them in, I do agree that he started to feel some compassion for River in the diagnostic room. He begins to feel a little uncomfortable, yet he continues to betray her and Simon. But then, the Fed officer betrays HIM. Shoe's on the other foot now, as they say. He's betrayed partners before (Jaynestown, Out Of Gas) but they were mercenaries like himself. But now HE knows what it feels like to be betrayed. That, on top of his beginning to feel compassion for River, and now he starts to feel something . . . but he doesn't understand what it is, because he's never felt this way before.

Later when Simon gushes about what a hero he is, we can see clearly that he's still confused about what he's feeling inside. Then, in the airlock, it suddenly hits him - he's wronged somebody. Someone who didn't deserve it. Perhaps this is the first time in his life that he's felt real shame.

This process of growth may have begun back in Jaynestown, for the obvious reasons. At the end of that episode, he just says "It don't make no sense."

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 10:36 AM

RHEA


^There you go. And I agree with absolutely.

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 11:09 AM

QUEENTIYE


Hi again!

Well... no, I don't think the "Shoe on the other foot" issue matters here.

Jayne's a mercenary, and the same way he can betray his partners, bet your bottom dollar he's been betrayed. Nature of the beast.

Here's my final version:

1. Jayne plans to betray the Tams soon as he knows that they are in range for betrayal. He may or may not be "helping" the crew - he definitely (either way) wants to get paid out of the deal.

2. Jayne finds something to respect in Simon - his plan's a good one. He still plans to sell Simon & River out.

3. Jayne finds himself slightly in awe of the Doctor's skill. He still plans to sell Simon & River out (but maybe he's wavering a bit. Not much though.)

4. Jayne finds out what the Alliance did to River. He changes his mind. Not because he didn't want to still get paid, but because he hates the Alliance, and this shows that what he is leaving the Tams to is beyond even him to do.

5. Jayne rushes out of the room to get away from the Feds... it doesn't quite work out.

6. The Feds bust Jayne in process of escape. Jayne (to cover his own butt, now that there's no hope for Simon & River) plays like he always planned on them getting caught, and looks for his money.

7. The agent, who busted them, knows that he busts them NOT according to plan, and goes ahead to arrest Jayne right along with the rest.

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 11:22 AM

QUEENTIYE


One more thought...

I don't personally believe any theory that has Jayne undergoing any growth. Not because it isn't plausible, but because I DON'T want it!!!

We are only in season 1, only 8 episodes in...it's way too early for our characters to start changing. We're JUST getting to know Jayne the mercenary! SO, all of my theories are based on Jayne being Jayne, and on us (and Mal) learning what common human decencies he ALREADY has, that make him able to be a member of the crew.

Sorta like (sorry to do it) what I had HOPED would happen to Tyr on Andromeda...but instead, the Tribunites felt the need to make Tyr more sympathetic, and totally unwrote his character. Dumb move, if you ask me (but nobody did...).

Anyway, I contend that even mercenaries are capable of human feeling and values, and that Jayne is no exception, and I contend that any good that we see from him stems from that place, and that it will take a LONG time for that goodness to develop into something like serious strength of character/integrity.

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 11:38 AM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by QueenTiye:
Hi again!

Well... no, I don't think the "Shoe on the other foot" issue matters here.

Jayne's a mercenary, and the same way he can betray his partners, bet your bottom dollar he's been betrayed. Nature of the beast.

Absolutely true. But to him, this time it feels different.
Quote:

3. Jayne finds himself slightly in awe of the Doctor's skill. He still plans to sell Simon & River out (but maybe he's wavering a bit. Not much though.)
Jayne's seen the doctor save lives before. He watched him save Zoe in "Out Of Gas" for instance. Why would start feeling more respect now?
Quote:

4. Jayne finds out what the Alliance did to River. He changes his mind. Not because he didn't want to still get paid, but because he hates the Alliance, and this shows that what he is leaving the Tams to is beyond even him to do.
Everyone on Serenity, including Jayne, has known all along that the Alliance had performed some pretty nasty medical experiments on River. Why would merely finding out what the specific medical proceedure was (which he probably doesn't even understand that well) affect Jayne SO MUCH that he suddenly decides right then and there to change everything? To throw away a HUGE reward? To get rid of someone who he's sure will be nothing but trouble for himself and Serenity?

It doesn't ring true to me. In your version the change in Jayne happens fairly suddenly. In my version it happens more slowly, more (I think) realistically and humanly.

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 12:12 PM

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND


Quote:

Originally posted by QueenTiye:




Sorta like (sorry to do it) what I had HOPED would happen to Tyr on Andromeda...but instead, the Tribunites felt the need to make Tyr more sympathetic, and totally unwrote his character. Dumb move, if you ask me (but nobody did...).



QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006



OT, I know, but...What did they do to Tyr?! Argh, I knew there was a reason I stopped watching Andromeda.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 1:04 PM

QUEENTIYE


Quote:

Originally posted by kef:
Absolutely true. But to him, this time it feels different.



Why?

Quote:

Jayne's seen the doctor save lives before. He watched him save Zoe in "Out Of Gas" for instance. Why would start feeling more respect now?


Because he's never seen Simon in a competitive arena. This is different because in an arena of DOCTORS, Simon outshone everyone. AND, he showed some backbone. Jayne doesn't like Simon not only because he's rich pampered guy, but because hes a namby-pamby rich pampered guy. The kind that bullies like Jayne LOVE to hate (and bully).

Quote:

Everyone on Serenity, including Jayne, has known all along that the Alliance had performed some pretty nasty medical experiments on River. Why would merely finding out what the specific medical proceedure was (which he probably doesn't even understand that well) affect Jayne SO MUCH that he suddenly decides right then and there to change everything?


Because it brings it home again the reality of what he's about to do. It's one thing to know a thing, and its another thing to put all the known facts together, and its a WHOLE OTHER THING to have all the known facts staring you in the face. Human beings are very good at compartmentalizing information - I'd expect that mercenaries are slightly better at it than most. But in this case, no compartmentalization allowed - all of the information was in Jayne's face.

Quote:

To throw away a HUGE reward? To get rid of someone who he's sure will be nothing but trouble for himself and Serenity?


I expect he'll find some other way to get rid of the Tams... but it won't be to give them to the alliance again...

Quote:

It doesn't ring true to me. In your version the change in Jayne happens fairly suddenly. In my version it happens more slowly, more (I think) realistically and humanly.



In my version NO change happens to Jayne. Jayne is Jayne, and the events of "Ariel" show us the side of him that allows us to appreciate him, even though we know he's this coarse, crude, and mercenary guy.

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 1:06 PM

QUEENTIYE


Quote:

Originally posted by Thegn:
Whether you want to admit it or not, there is a difference between hearing about someone’s condition and seeing it. And actually, there is no evidence to suggest that Jayne or anyone else on the crew knew anything about the specifics of River's condition prior to the Hospital scene.

Secondly, QueenTiye never suggested that Jayne changed, only that he is human.



I've GOT to learn how to say things as succinctly as that!

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 1:13 PM

QUEENTIYE


Quote:

Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:


OT, I know, but...What did they do to Tyr?! Argh, I knew there was a reason I stopped watching Andromeda.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne



OT: It gets worse every episode.. ~SIGH~

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 1:59 PM

KEF


I swear . . . you Jayne lovers, you're gonna be the death of me.

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 3:30 PM

QUEENTIYE


No Jayne lover here...Mal's the man for me!

BUT... I do believe that human beings are not flat two-dimensional creaturs, and I do believe that Joss Whedon makes whole series about depth of characters, and I do believe that Jayne has his plusses and his minuses, as we know him today.

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 5:31 PM

KEF


Quote:

I don't personally believe any theory that has Jayne undergoing any growth. Not because it isn't plausible, but because I DON'T want it!!!
So you're pretty much unbiased then?.
Quote:

Quote:

Originally posted by kef:
Absolutely true. But to him, this time it feels different.

Why?

I've already explained that.
Quote:

Quote:

Everyone on Serenity, including Jayne, has known all along that the Alliance had performed some pretty nasty medical experiments on River. Why would merely finding out what the specific medical proceedure was (which he probably doesn't even understand that well) affect Jayne SO MUCH that he suddenly decides right then and there to change everything?
Because it brings it home again the reality of what he's about to do. It's one thing to know a thing, and its another thing to put all the known facts together, and its a WHOLE OTHER THING to have all the known facts staring you in the face. Human beings are very good at compartmentalizing information - I'd expect that mercenaries are slightly better at it than most. But in this case, no compartmentalization allowed - all of the information was in Jayne's face.

Okay, well perhaps this may be the crux of this whole thing - I truly didn't see that in Jayne's face. Please see my post to Thegn.
Quote:

In my version NO change happens to Jayne. Jayne is Jayne, and the events of "Ariel" show us the side of him that allows us to appreciate him, even though we know he's this coarse, crude, and mercenary guy.

BUT... I do believe that human beings are not flat two-dimensional creaturs, and I do believe that Joss Whedon makes whole series about depth of characters, and I do believe that Jayne has his plusses and his minuses, as we know him today.

This is pretty much the same way I see it. I think we're just misreading each other's meanings. What I meant by "change" for instance. (I apologise for sounding Clintonian!).

You say you don't WANT Jayne to undergo any growth, or at least not this quickly. Why? Because you think he'll "change"? (there's that word again) That he'll start acting differently?

I don't believe my theory is in any way suggesting that consequence. I think you're overinterpreting what I'm saying happened to Jayne.

If I understand you, you believe A) Jayne has a conscience, and that B) it caused him to change his mind in the diagnostic room.

A) is all I'm saying too, basically, even if it sounds like I'm making it into something bigger. I merely contend that B) happened at a different time and in a different way.

Again, please see my post to Thegn.



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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 5:31 PM

KEF


Quote:

Praise god almighty someone other then Delvo and I recognize that Jayne is more complex then just a stereotypical mercenary. He's a human being with human emotions and human weaknesses. One of those weaknesses is his own conscience. Maybe Jayne has done a lot of horrible things in his time, but he didn't do any of them without seeking some way of rationalizing them. Jayne is not robotic. He is not just another Dr. Zachary Smith in the old Lost in Space, existing for no other function then to play the protagonist. He is not a sociopath. He seeks out human justification for his actions, like we all do. He doesn't kill for the pleasure of killing. He never kills without something in his head convincing him that the world is a better place for his actions. He would never sell off members of his own crew, unless he could create a similar justification. And his discovery of the specifics of River's treatment by the Alliance must have heavily bruised whatever justification he was using to convince himself that what he was doing was right.
As I just posted to QueenTiye, this is pretty much my view as well. I think we're just misreading each other's meanings.
Quote:

Secondly, QueenTiye never suggested that Jayne changed, only that he is human.
Again, I probably am not expressing myself correctly, in terms of what I mean by change.
Quote:

Whether you want to admit it or not, there is a difference between hearing about someone’s condition and seeing it.
Whoa, back off. I never said there wasn't.
Quote:

And actually, there is no evidence to suggest that Jayne or anyone else on the crew knew anything about the specifics of River's condition prior to the Hospital scene.
That's exactly what I said! They DIDN'T know the SPECIFICS. But they DID know SOMETHING nasty had been done to her.

But if I understand you and QueenTiye, you both are saying that Jayne looked at that medical scan, and what he saw on it affected him enough to bring out the conscience in him.

I'm just not seeing that. THIS seems to be the crux of where we disagree in this whole debate.

I don't see his conscience coming out at that point in the episode. I don't see it in his actions or reactions. Or in the circumstances, or in the sequence of events. I just don't see it, that's all.

We're just never going to agree on that point.

Just for the record - I'm not saying that you guys COULDN'T be right. It's ambiguous. The fact that other people in this thread also don't see what you do proves that. I believe my theory is close to Jose Molina's intention. But hell, I could easily have my head up my behind.

We're just never going to agree on this. (about the episode I mean, not me having my head up there.) Not that I ever thought we would. But getting to this point has been fun, hasn't it? And it's always educational to see something from someone else's perspective, isn't it? -...


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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 5:41 PM

ILOVEJAYNE


I'm going to have to come down on the no-change-of-heart side. If he'd changed his mind, why lead them out the back instead of the front as planned? That's how Mal figured out what happened; Kaylee reported unusual chatter from the back of the building. The twenty minutes early was to get rid of them as soon as possible.

The only time I wondered if he had changed his mind was after River started screaming. Jayne told Simon to shut her up and muttered about making a quiet escape. I sorta thought he was talking to himself, and wanted to unbetray the Tams then, but if he was still talking to Simon at that point, then I can't see an unbetrayal. Much as I would like to.

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 6:40 PM

FLAMBE


I have to say - after re-viewing 'Ariel,' I don't think Jayne re-thought his betrayel or anything.

He betrayed the Tams, and when he was caught by the feds too, his only thought turned to escape. He didn't relent - he just abandoned it.

I didn't feel like he had a change of heart during Simon's examination of River. He wanted to get them out and to the feds as quickly as he could so he could get his reward.

And once caught, he just wanted out. Why did he want to go one way when Simon & River wanted to go the other? Because he knew the way. So what that there were 6 feds - he knew that (and felt they could take them).

So there ya go. I'm throwing my hat into the "Jayne didn't un-betray the Tams" ring.

-F

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 6:40 PM

FLAMBE


I have to say - after re-viewing 'Ariel,' I don't think Jayne re-thought his betrayel or anything.

He betrayed the Tams, and when he was caught by the feds too, his only thought turned to escape. He didn't relent - he just abandoned it.

I didn't feel like he had a change of heart during Simon's examination of River. He wanted to get them out and to the feds as quickly as he could so he could get his reward.

And once caught, he just wanted out. Why did he want to go one way when Simon & River wanted to go the other? Because he knew the way. So what that there were 6 feds - he knew that (and felt they could take them).

So there ya go. I'm throwing my hat into the "Jayne didn't un-betray the Tams" ring.

-F

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 8:03 PM

DELVO


Quote:

So there ya go. I'm throwing my hat into the "Jayne didn't un-betray the Tams" ring.
Well, obviously, by the end when he's fighting with them and running with them (even when they go the opposite direction from the one he 'd rather go), he had unbetrayed them. It's just an issue of when/where/why.

I really don't get how there can be such a dispute here over something so simple and obvious. There's nothing to debate, because one simple fact makes it absolutely clear; that fact has already been pointed out, but one side here has simply ignored it while looking for ways to conclude the opposite of the obvious...

The Feds already effectively had them. Jayne had arranged this ahead of time. They were in the Feds' own place and the Feds knew where to look for them. According to the original plan, they'd be sitting ducks for 20 or more minutes and then follow a very narrowly prescribed route out. That's practically a definition of "easy pickings". Jayne didn't need to do anything to bring about their capture. The inevitable course of events was already leading straight to that. And the only possible reason for Jayne to suddenly start taking rushed, drastic action is to CHANGE that course of events, and thus their inevitable outcome...

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Wednesday, November 20, 2002 8:47 PM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by Delvo:
I really don't get how there can be such a dispute here over something so simple and obvious. There's nothing to debate, because one simple fact makes it absolutely clear; that fact has already been pointed out, but one side here has simply ignored it while looking for ways to conclude the opposite of the obvious...

Delvo, we didn't go LOOKING for for ways to conclude the "opposite of the obvious." It's the way we saw it in the first place. If your version was SO obvious, why did so many of us not see it? What was "obvious" to us was that Jayne didn't do what you claim. Why ARE we debating this if your version is so obvious? Because it's NOT OBVIOUS.
Quote:

The Feds already effectively had them. Jayne had arranged this ahead of time. They were in the Feds' own place and the Feds knew where to look for them. According to the original plan, they'd be sitting ducks for 20 or more minutes and then follow a very narrowly prescribed route out.
If this is so, then they were sitting ducks for longer than 20 minutes. They were sitting ducks from the time Jayne called the Fed officer on the vid screen. Why didn't the Feds swoop down on them while they were still in the morgue? Or while they were on the way to the diagnosis room? Or while Simon was performing the diagnostic?

I know the answer - because they needed to show us, the audience, River's diagnostic. But if the Feds knew where they were and could have grabbed them anytime, that just leaves a big fat plot hole in Jose Molina's script.

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Thursday, November 21, 2002 2:05 AM

DELVO


Quote:

if the Feds knew where they were and could have grabbed them anytime, that just leaves a big fat plot hole in Jose Molina's script.
Oh come on now. Everybody knows it can take a several minutes for the security guys to get from where they're stationed to where they need to go. And if they weren't ready quickly enough for Jayne, again, RUSHING THEM OUT COULD NOT POSSIBLY SERVE ANY PURPOSE, because if the security team's not set up and ready to get them, then they're just not set up and ready to get them. So again, to follow through with betraying them, all Jayne had to do was wait for the inevitable events he'd already set in motion before. Suddenly doing something other than that means trying to change the course he was on!

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Thursday, November 21, 2002 3:31 AM

RHEA


Quote:

Originally posted by Delvo:
So again, to follow through with betraying them, all Jayne had to do was wait for the inevitable events he'd already set in motion before. Suddenly doing something other than that means trying to change the course he was on!



I went back and watched this again. This is what I see:

1) The Tams are unconscious - Jayne takes the opportunity to slip out of the morgue and make his call to the Feds, setting the time and place of the handover (assumption: this needed to be earlier than the meeting planned with Mal et al so that the deed is done before time to head back to the transport).

2) The Tams wake up, they go to the imager, and Jayne announces that they need to leave earlier than planned(assumption: last minute announcement so as not to allow Simon thinking time)

3) They go out, the Feds capture them, and a stunned Jayne finds out he's going to get coal in his stocking.

Try as I may, I can't get anything else out of that scene.

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Thursday, November 21, 2002 5:33 AM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by Delvo:
Oh come on now. Everybody knows it can take a several minutes for the security guys to get from where they're stationed to where they need to go. And if they weren't ready quickly enough for Jayne, again, RUSHING THEM OUT COULD NOT POSSIBLY SERVE ANY PURPOSE, because if the security team's not set up and ready to get them, then they're just not set up and ready to get them. So again, to follow through with betraying them, all Jayne had to do was wait for the inevitable events he'd already set in motion before. Suddenly doing something other than that means trying to change the course he was on!

because if the security team's not set up and ready to get them Why would the security team NOT be ready?? Jayne first contacted the Feds before they even entered the hospital! So they (the Feds) knew they were coming. They had that whole time to prepare and be ready for Jayne to contact them once inside.

By your theory the Feds were coming to grab them in the diagnostic room. Is that correct? How did the Feds know they were going to be in the diagnostic room? We know Jayne didn't say anything about location to the Fed officer the second time he called him. Therefore he must have told him the first time he called (before they entered the hospital) that the the Tams would be going to the diagnostic room. So why wouldn't the Feds simply have been waiting there for them?

Maybe because the Feds didn't know exactly when the Tams would be entering the hospital? Okay. But are you then saying that it would've taken the Feds significantly longer to get to the diagnostic room (after Jayne called the second time and told the Fed guy "we're in") than it took Jayne and the Tams to get to the diagnostic room from the morgue? Considering that Simon STILL had time after getting there to perform River's scan? How freakin' slow are these Feds?

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Thursday, November 21, 2002 5:38 AM

DELVO


Quote:

1) The Tams are unconscious - Jayne takes the opportunity to slip out of the morgue and make his call to the Feds, setting the time and place of the handover (assumption: this needed to be earlier than the meeting planned with Mal et al so that the deed is done before time to head back to the transport).
But getting the Feds to the Tams or the Tams to the Feds does not require leaving early or changing the route. They're already there, and already surrounded by Feds in a facility where Alliance officials control the locks on the doors. The trap can be sprung at any time, in the room or along their planned exit route. And even if they'd needed to leave early for this to work even though they were already trapped, Jayne would have had no reason to WAIT the few minutes that he DID.

Also, Jayne has no reason at all to be concerned one way or the other about when Mal and the others are leaving or how they might react to his betrayal, because once he's got his ree-ward, he's not going to be with them anymore anyway. He can just wait for them to do whatever they're going to do and leave (or be taken away by Feds), while he has a snack in the 19th-floor cafeteria. Avoidance of Mal is just not an issue.

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Thursday, November 21, 2002 5:49 AM

DELVO


When I mentioned security forces not being ready yet, I had only brought it up because it seemed that you or someone else might have been thinking that Jayne was rushing them out because he was getting impatient; but that's invalid because rushing the Tams doesn't rush anybody else.

Quote:

By your theory the Feds were coming to grab them in the diagnostic room. Is that correct? How did the Feds know they were going to be in the diagnostic room? We know Jayne didn't say anything about location to the Fed officer the second time he called him. Therefore he must have told him the first time he called (before they entered the hospital) that the the Tams would be going to the diagnostic room. So why wouldn't the Feds simply have been waiting there for them?
To answer the initial question: Incorrect. I'm not specifying when and where they were supposed to get them. The point is that this is an Alliance facility swarming with Alliance officials. They can arrest them in that room, on the way out, in a bathroom, wherever and whenever. Whether the arrest was supposed to be made in the room or on the way out doesn't matter; Jayne dosen't need to alter the team's plan at all in order to get the Tams caught when they're already this deep in enemy territory. What's so difficult about this?

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Thursday, November 21, 2002 5:50 AM

QUEENTIYE


Oops! Hi Delvo! This message was to Kef...


The feds are very likely NOT slow at all... but setting it up so that there can be a clandestined payoff, and Jayne gets away takes a little work. There are ONLY two people in on the betrayal, Jayne and his contact. His contact (according to my theory) is still looking to be cooperative up till the moment he sees that Jayne backed out (presumably by Jayne not being where he's supposed to be).

One more thought for those who don't want to credit Jayne with any human decency... we don't really have to (I just think that he does have some, and that it shows up in the occassional odd moment).

Jayne could have seen what they did to River and got the creeps. He could have simply decided that he didn't want ANY contact with those Feds at all, and he could have realized that he made a bad deal. So far, I have three reasons for Jayne to commit the un-betrayal:

1. Conscience - he just couldn't do it when he saw what happened to River (oh, and Kef? I think I'm saying something slightly different than what you said before about Jayne - its not that he's so impressed by new medical knowledge of River's condition - it's that he's seeing the reality of it for the first time. For all Jayne knows, River could be a kook all on her own, and Simon just thinks the alliance did that. Or, Jayne could know they did SOMETHING to her, but knowing that they cut open her head and sliced up her brain is a bit more specific. In any event - it's the fact that it's real now, not that it's new information, and that realism is what I meant by "in Jayne's face," not that you could see a particular change of expression on his face. Sorry for the confusion.)

2. Jayne realizes that creepy people who slice up other people's brains are not people you want to chance running into, much less purposely meet up with them.

3. Jayne realizes that creepy people who slice up other people's BRAINS would have no qualms double-dealing.

And mind you... all three of those reasons could be true at the same time.

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

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Thursday, November 21, 2002 6:03 AM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by Delvo:
To answer the initial question: Incorrect. I'm not specifying when and where they were supposed to get them. The point is that this is an Alliance facility swarming with Alliance officials. They can arrest them in that room, on the way out, in a bathroom, wherever and whenever. Whether the arrest was supposed to be made in the room or on the way out doesn't matter; Jayne dosen't need to alter the team's plan at all in order to get the Tams caught when they're already this deep in enemy territory. What's so difficult about this?

Yeah I thought of that right after I posted the last one.
So let's say that maybe Jayne didn't know when or where the Feds planned to grab the Tams. He left that up to them. So he tried to rush the Tams out of the HOSPITAL before the Feds swooped down. It still doesn't explain why it took the Feds SO LONG to swoop down after Jayne called to say "we're in", considering that they knew the Tams were coming before they even entered the hospital, and thus had plenty of time to prepare.

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Thursday, November 21, 2002 6:14 AM

RHEA


Quote:

Originally posted by kef:
So let's say that maybe Jayne didn't know when or where the Feds planned to grab the Tams. He left that up to them. So he tried to rush the Tams out of the HOSPITAL before the Feds swooped down. It still doesn't explain why it took the Feds SO LONG to swoop down after Jayne called to say "we're in", considering that they knew the Tams were coming before they even entered the hospital, and thus had plenty of time to prepare.



There's an easy explanation for that. If I were Jayne I would tell them as little about the plan as possible so that I could control the where/when of the pickup. Why give away everything?

I assumed that Jayne went for the pickup in an open area so as to maximize his own chances of escape if something went wrong.

Of course, I may be crediting Jayne with too many smarts.

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Thursday, November 21, 2002 6:21 AM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by QueenTiye:
One more thought for those who don't want to credit Jayne with any human decency... we don't really have to (I just think that he does have some, and that it shows up in the occassional odd moment).

Jayne could have seen what they did to River and got the creeps. He could have simply decided that he didn't want ANY contact with those Feds at all, and he could have realized that he made a bad deal. So far, I have three reasons for Jayne to commit the un-betrayal:

1. Conscience - he just couldn't do it when he saw what happened to River (oh, and Kef? I think I'm saying something slightly different than what you said before about Jayne - its not that he's so impressed by new medical knowledge of River's condition - it's that he's seeing the reality of it for the first time. For all Jayne knows, River could be a kook all on her own, and Simon just thinks the alliance did that. Or, Jayne could know they did SOMETHING to her, but knowing that they cut open her head and sliced up her brain is a bit more specific. In any event - it's the fact that it's real now, not that it's new information, and that realism is what I meant by "in Jayne's face," not that you could see a particular change of expression on his face. Sorry for the confusion.)

2. Jayne realizes that creepy people who slice up other people's brains are not people you want to chance running into, much less purposely meet up with them.

3. Jayne realizes that creepy people who slice up other people's BRAINS would have no qualms double-dealing.

And mind you... all three of those reasons could be true at the same time.



I don't think that having Jayne not change his mind about turning in the Tams is saying that he doesn't have any human decency. Someone else here had a theory which I like that Jayne in fact thought that he was doing the right thing by turning over the Tams. And I do agree that he was bothered by what he saw in the diagnostic room. And that he felt uncomfortable about turning them over. I just don't think it affected him enough to change his mind.
These are all good points you've made, though, 1-3. I understand what you're saying.

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Thursday, November 21, 2002 6:33 AM

THESKINWALKER


Jayne shoulda cut Rivers throat the second she cut him. That backhand shoulda had a blade in it.

As far as what he was thinking durring the whole betrayl ordeal...I was left with a feeling he redeemed himself somewhat. But he was sure more merciful than I woulda been at the beguining.

You just dont mess with a man's Blue Sun shirt.

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Thursday, November 21, 2002 11:18 AM

TINYTIMM


Quote:

Originally posted by Mopbucket:
As for the whole "assumption" thing. If you've ever done a deconstruction or read any post-modern philosophy you know you can't do anything without making assumptions.



My tax dollars are paying for this?


Jeff
Who hopes ghod helps the next generation.

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Friday, November 22, 2002 12:31 PM

KEN


I also think there was no change of heart at the last minute. In part because when they are caught Jayne mentions something about his money to the Fed that double crossed him. If he had a change of heart I don't think he would have asked for his money. Also, if true the Jayne character will have bigger problems as the show goes on thru more episodes.

Unless they give Jayne some socially redeeming characteristics - and soon - he will become a two deminsonal "bad guy" right out of early TV dramas. He will be nothing more than a predicitable paper cut-out villian of no real interest to anyone.

If, however, they give him some redeeming characteristics, some depth, and a history that fleshes out the character, the writers can have a gfield day with inner conflict as the character himself and the audience discovers how he reacts to situations successfully and from time to time unsuccessfully.

Ken

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Friday, November 22, 2002 1:34 PM

QUEENTIYE


Quote:

Originally posted by ken:
Unless they give Jayne some socially redeeming characteristics - and soon - he will become a two deminsonal "bad guy" right out of early TV dramas. He will be nothing more than a predicitable paper cut-out villian of no real interest to anyone.

Ken



We are all entitled to our opinions!

As you can see...mine differs from yours - and I believe that we see quite a lot of depth in Jayne already.

QT


QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

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Friday, November 22, 2002 2:05 PM

TRAGICSTORY


My 2 cents: (read worthless opinion)

I believe that Jayne had every intention of turning Simon and River into the "feds" and only freed them because it was in his best intrest too. Had they been seperated, I do not see Jayne attempting to find them and rescue them. The only reason I believe this so strongly is the end scene with Jayne and Mal. Until those last minutes, Jayne does not see S & R as crew members, but as passangers. It is after he realizes this that he understnds what he did is wrong, accepts his inevitable death and asks Mal to cover up his shame. If in future episodes, Jayne treats s & R as passangers instead of crew I will stand corrected. But I do not think that will happen.

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Friday, November 22, 2002 4:09 PM

EVANS


Quote:

Originally posted by ken:
Unless they give Jayne some socially redeeming characteristics - and soon - he will become a two deminsonal "bad guy" right out of early TV dramas.


He is already 3-dimensional, despite his being a brute. He may be slowly redeeming himself, living and working with people who care about each other, and about him....He worried about getting pinched in Canton, then had fun there, for a while. The boy's losing his life for Jayne threw Jayne into confusion....In "Out of Gas," he went out of his way to get Mal as much air & comfort as possible, and spent a long second staring at Mal (clearly failing to come up with "goodbye"). Later, he seemed to be jealous of Zoe as she conversed with Mal....In "Shindig," he laughed at Mal's cruel comment to Kaylee, insulted Badger while eating the man's food, cheated at cards, and participated in planning an escape'n'rescue operation. In other words, he had fun.

Jayne shows his thoughts & feelings, brutish and simple though they may appear to be. He is not a begrimed cardboard mannequin.

m.
------------------------------------------------
"But ... not boring, like she made it sound." Wash, in ARIEL

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Monday, November 25, 2002 4:29 AM

IDEFIX


just one little thing I wanted to add to the long debate. and let me say I find it totally cool that there's this really long thread about a fairly new series with fairly new characters. it says something about the quality of this show , don't you think?

so I read this thread on friday and decided to watch the EP again to make sure what I see in it. my first time watching I never thought Jayne might have tried to un-betray (nice word creation) them. I thought he wanted to get the betrayal over with, when he hurried them out the back.

and on my second watching after reading this long thread I noticed something: Jayne said to Simon there was a change of plan and they had to meet out the back in 5 minutes. and when they came out the back door the feds waited there for them.
and then later on when Mal had locked Jayne in the airlock he asked him what he was doing at the back door. and concluded from that that Jayne had called the feds.

so I get the notion that going out back was not in Mals plan. and so I conclude that Jayne wanted to betray them all the time.

that doesn't say he didn't feel bad about it or that he has no heart but I think he made up his plan to get rid of the mad girl and her brother for security and conviniency reasons. he thought he'd do Mal and all aboard Serenity a favour.

and now he knows Mal will take it personally and that was not what he wanted so he'll probably never do it again. and not because he likes them any better now.

Idefix
and sorry for bad english. it isn't my native language.

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