GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Hey Grammar-philes - a word of advice

POSTED BY: CHANNAIN
UPDATED: Friday, April 15, 2005 22:46
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Wednesday, April 13, 2005 10:03 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

Originally posted by Static with regard to Sanmi77:
For the love of God...if you have a problem with another poster, folks...IGNORE that poster. If they ARE a troll, you're only feeding the beast. If they are NOT a troll, you're making us look like trolls ourselves.

It's SO EASY to NOT READ something.

I was trying to figure out the best way to express this self-same opinion - Static has already done so eloquently that I can't improve on that. However, because I'm weary of the actions being taken against Sanmi and others, I'm standing on my soap box over here instead.

I've wanted to say this to the Grammar-philes out there for awhile now:

You need to ease up just a bit.

Good use of language is a learning process and we are all works in progress when it comes to that.

How is someone going to take advantage of good communication if they don't learn how to do it?

What good are excellent grammar skills if you don't share them for the greater good?

Criticizing or ridiculing someone for bad grammar isn't going to help them change it. It's going to send them off into the black where we'll never see them again. This may be considered a good thing by some, but what if the next grammar abuser also happens to have the single finest talent with digital media or is a world-class costumer? You could be hurting the feelings of an enthusiastic and truly creative person who will thereby never share their ultra-shiny creations with us.

Use your powers for good. Instead of flaming someone because they don't understand punctuation and have poor spelling, please HELP THEM.

Also, just in case the grammar-challenged should wander in here, I'd also advise you to pay attention. This form of communication is heavily reliant on being able to do it well. If your chosen "style" of writing is confusing or poorly written, then all your sparking insight, discovery and creativity will be set aside in favor of correcting your grammar. At the very least, learn where periods are supposed to go. initial capping on sentences is purely optional around here.

On the other hand, if English is your second, third, or even fourth language (thanks to Astragynia and those of you who reminded me), take heart. Remind us often that you're "speaking" a foreign tongue and sometimes the letters and punctuation don't always fall where they're supposed to - from our point of view. That goes for everyone out there with learning disabilities too. Don't let the language hinder you from coming here and posting, and don't let the grammar-philes scare you off. I bet there's a lot of other stuff they can't do perfectly either.

Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
I draw...therefore I am. http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922
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Wednesday, April 13, 2005 10:38 AM

STARRBABY


I agree that it is useless (and above all tactless) to correct someone's grammer.
The thread a bunch of us have going about our grammer woes is more to just get stupid crap off our overly-picky chests.

However, I know that if anything in my posts, (be it spelling, grammer, or just not being clear enough) was hindering others' ability to understand it, I'd like it pointed out to me nicely.



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Wednesday, April 13, 2005 10:42 AM

MALICIOUS


Channain, that was WAY more than "a word" by my count! There were at least 40 or 50 words, I think.

Mal-licious

I think I will add cursing and the hurling about of things to my repertoire.

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Wednesday, April 13, 2005 10:47 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

Originally posted by Starrbaby:
I agree that it is useless (and above all tactless) to correct someone's grammer.
The thread a bunch of us have going about our grammer woes is more to just get stupid crap off our overly-picky chests.

I get that - and have replied to them myself. Some things just need saying or you'll explode.
Quote:

However, I know that if anything in my posts, (be it spelling, grammer, or just not being clear enough) was hindering others' ability to understand it, I'd like it pointed out to me nicely.
So would I, but too much has been said unkindly here lately, and that's what's bugging more than unfortunate use of grammar, punctuation or bad spelling.

I wouldn't want to lose a browncoat just because they prefer to spell it that way... the way I prefer to spell it, actually.

Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
I draw...therefore I am. http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922
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Wednesday, April 13, 2005 10:50 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

Originally posted by Malicious:
Channain, that was WAY more than "a word" by my count! There were at least 40 or 50 words, I think.

Consider it ecumenical - unifying all the words into one. Some would have gone on for 40 or 50 more--aren't you glad I'm economical?

Besides, "A Short Lecture of Advice" not only sounds silly, but I have a feeling it would just scare people.

Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
I draw...therefore I am. http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922
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Wednesday, April 13, 2005 1:22 PM

STARRBABY


Quote:

So would I, but too much has been said unkindly here lately,


I must agree.
I have been one who has tried to help certain people clarify. I do hope that it hasn't come across as unkind.

Oh well, if it did come across unkindly, the person I directed it at was a troll . . .and not just trollish; he was a definate flame baiter.

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Wednesday, April 13, 2005 1:42 PM

DANFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Channain:
But too much has been said unkindly here lately...



With apologies for the "me too" quality of this post, but...

I was wondering if it was just me. It's seemed a little rough and tumble on this board lately. On the non-political threads it seems to be mostly criticism/sarcasm regarding grammar and spelling. On the political threads, it's a whole different kind of nasty... heavyweights ridiculing each other's thoughts, ad hominem attacks right and left, frequently devolving into name-calling. I used to visit those threads to learn things. I've mostly stopped going because I have to filter too much crap to find something worth learning.

I know what "community" is. While the fabric isn't rotten, the community being practiced here is looking a little tatterred in some corners. I, for one, am damned glad this thread was started up. Thanks.

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Wednesday, April 13, 2005 1:52 PM

ASTRAGYNIA


Quote:


It's your language too. Learn to use it.



I would like to add one thing - it's extremely possible that there are people on this site for whom English is NOT their first language. Because of the anonymous nature of posting online - we never hear a person's accent, for example - we can never know whether somebody's incorrect grammar or spelling is due to laziness or whether they are struggling mightily to write something as correctly as they know how (or somewhere in between).

This is an issue I've grown much more sensitive to recently, from living in the province of Quebec. Hearing people apologize for their English when their English is far, far better than my French (and in many cases these may be people who are even tri- or quadrilingual) has been a humbling experience.

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Wednesday, April 13, 2005 1:53 PM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

Originally posted by Starrbaby:
I must agree.
I have been one who has tried to help certain people clarify. I do hope that it hasn't come across as unkind.

Oh well, if it did come across unkindly, the person I directed it at was a troll . . .and not just trollish; he was a definate flame baiter.

I would say that if you're worried about any unkindness then the chances are pretty good you managed to make your point without being snide, unless of course you meant it to. Others would not garner the same credit. Well-meaning fans who come in here and post news or images to share with the fandom shouldn't get flamed because they don't like to capitalize or don't get how commas work.

This is a fan site, not graduate-level online class in grammar.

Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
I draw...therefore I am. http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922
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Wednesday, April 13, 2005 1:57 PM

SPIKESBABE


I'm adding to the 'me too' posts,

I'm dyslexic (who new that word was hard to spell). It's why I don't post much, it takes me reading and re-reading to make sure my spellings are correct, sometimes I have to check with other sources, my grammar (in particular use of punctutation) is terrible. But I hope my posts make sense, I would welcome someone (in a nice way) telling that I don't make sense.

It's called 'constructive criticism' (and yes I had to check that) some people can take the view that's it's having a go, or flaming, personally i'd rather someone tell me i'm wrong than carry on in ignorance but that might just be me.

Cally

There's no place I'd rather be
Since I found Serenity

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Wednesday, April 13, 2005 1:58 PM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

Originally posted by Astragynia:
I would like to add one thing - it's extremely possible that there are people on this site for whom English is NOT their first language. Because of the anonymous nature of posting online - we never hear a person's accent, for example - we can never know whether somebody's incorrect grammar or spelling is due to laziness or whether they are struggling mightily to write something as correctly as they know how (or somewhere in between).

This is an issue I've grown much more sensitive to recently, from living in the province of Quebec. Hearing people apologize for their English when their English is far, far better than my French (and in many cases these may be people who are even tri- or quadrilingual) has been a humbling experience.

This is a good point.

Someone who speaks an entirely different language from ours - Chinese, for instance - wouldn't necessarily know what to do grammatically. If they had taken English classes, they would have a pretty good idea, but if they've been picking it up from the media?

A friend of mine speaks five languages, English being her fifth, and she still has trouble with grammar. Mainly because she's thinking everything in her native tongue - Armenian - then translating it to English in her head and then BACK to Armenian just to make sure she's got it right. She does really well, but her writing skills have been a long time coming. It probably also doesn't help that all her education was in French schools.

Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
I draw...therefore I am. http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922
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Wednesday, April 13, 2005 2:04 PM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

Originally posted by Spikesbabe:
I'm dyslexic (who new that word was hard to spell). It's why I don't post much, it takes me reading and re-reading to make sure my spellings are correct, sometimes I have to check with other sources, my grammar (in particular use of punctutation) is terrible. But I hope my posts make sense, I would welcome someone (in a nice way) telling that I don't make sense.

It's called 'constructive criticism' (and yes I had to check that) some people can take the view that's it's having a go, or flaming, personally i'd rather someone tell me i'm wrong than carry on in ignorance but that might just be me.

So long as they tell you nicely in a way that is actually constructive, that would be considered beneficial. Otherwise, it's people saying, "I'm better than you are" and that's just mean.

We do critiques in school. Everybody gets to say something, and is encouraged to - it's part of the grade. Questions have to be asked positively and feedback has to be the same, otherwise points get taken away and the grade suffers.

It's all about positive reinforcement.

Hokey smokes... who knew I'd be posting a thread about grammical intolerance? You should have seen my use of commas and "it's" vs. "its" just six months ago. Was NOT pretty.

Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
I draw...therefore I am. http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922
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Wednesday, April 13, 2005 9:29 PM

EMMA


This is a very interesting thread.

I am one of those to whom grammar does not come easily. I went through the English education system and am English born and bred, I have no learning disabilities, am overly educated (just starting my PhD) and have a few years of teaching adults under my belt.

Despite this I still have to get my partner to proof-read my work because I don't know how to use commas, apostrophes and goodness only knows what else. It is all highly embarrassing!

My grammar was commented upon once, in quite a friendly way and, although it was a bit of a shock I took it well and wouldn't mind if it happened again. The thought that my grammar prevents people from seeing my natural genius obviously created so I can rule the universe is traumatic

I really should get me a signature

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Wednesday, April 13, 2005 9:40 PM

TLACOOK


Proper communication is when the reader understands your meaning. Grammar is for snobs and anal retentives. And yes, I have a degree in English literature and an MBA in Finance.

Education and learning means squat if the reader does not understand what you mean to say.

The English language is wonderfully changing and evolving. This is a beautiful thing.

If you get your point across then you are communicating. If you are a troll then that shines through also.

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Wednesday, April 13, 2005 9:52 PM

SOUPCATCHER


Amen, tlacook. Communication first and foremost.

I'm reminded of Christopher Stasheff's Rogue Wizard series. One of the metrics they used to judge whether or not a world was under authoritarian rule was language. If the language had not deviated much in hundreds of years it was a good bet that a totalitarian government was in charge. I always liked that detail.



---------------------
Next up: Early "Nutcrusher" Jubal and the Firebuggers

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Wednesday, April 13, 2005 9:58 PM

TLACOOK


Nice! I am going to write that author down.

One of my pet peeves is people complaining about language changing.

Wake up People. Language is a living breathing animal. It changes, it evolves, it improves.

The second it stops changing it becomes Latin. I.E. DEAD!

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Wednesday, April 13, 2005 11:01 PM

GAVIDA


Thank you for this thread!

I am german, english is the second language I speak (well, write, read and listen seems to be more appropriate, since I try to prevent speaking it because of "der bad german akzent" )

I am always glad if someone points out mistakes I make in a way that I don't feel attacked but helped.
I sometimes put a (sp?) behind words I am not sure about the spelling.

I don't like being flamed for mistakes I make when posting something. I will accept it though, if it is written in proper german by someone who speaks english as native language hehe

Help to improve my english skills is always appreciated.

And since I learned english in school two ways (One teacher was teaching the good old "Oxford English" the other one I had during my school time was american and taught english with american influences) I tent to mix up some expressions from both sides of the big pond.

My grammar sucks really bad, I throw commas and periods where I "feel" they belong.

So bear with me and my writings :)

See ya,
Gavida




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Thursday, April 14, 2005 2:24 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Hey, as long as I can make any kinda sense out of it at all, I'm ok with it - hell, my english isn't top notch and I live here, heh.

I think a lotta folks weren't offended so much by the grammar as the trolling, and simply jumped on that issue as well.

People are human, bleh.

-F

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 3:49 AM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.


My problem with sanmi77 had nothing to do with grammar or spelling...I could generally understand what the idea was. My problem was that they were posting something, not getting a response fast enough, or one they didn't like, and then starting like three or more new threads about how they were being mistreated around here. I don't have a problem with misused or even unused grammar. But, someone who's that impatient kinda irked me. But, I never did reply to any of their posts. And, it did seem to me that most people were giving sanmi the benefit of the doubt early on.

Plus, I take umbrage at anyone who says that the browncoats around here are less than nice in any way. They were given plenty of oppurtunities to join in and instead, they bit. I've been on this site for almost a year, and I can say that I wasn't hugged and given a beer as soon as I got here. But, if you are truly interested in Firefly, and it shows, then the fans around can not be beat. I mean, they are quite a bit less forgiving on the actual Serenity official board, I think. They're still nice, but nothing like here.

Sorry about going on so.

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 4:06 AM

BARNEYT


Quote:

Originally posted by Gavida:

I don't like being flamed for mistakes I make when posting something. I will accept it though, if it is written in proper german by someone who speaks english as native language hehe



Oh my... this should be a rule of the forum!

Quote:


My grammar sucks really bad, I throw commas and periods where I "feel" they belong.





And so do I, and I'm a native English speaker. The English education system is a little... ah... lax when it comes to teaching grammar... So I make it up



---
"I think the right place to start is to say, fair is fair. This is who we are. These are our numbers." Mr Willis of Ohio - The West Wing

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 8:10 AM

EMMA


Quote:

The English education system is a little... ah... lax when it comes to teaching grammar... So I make it up


I second that with knobs on... and as for teaching 2nd languages forget it!


I really should get me a signature

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 8:29 AM

SERGEANTX


OK, OK... hold on a minute.

All of the above is fine and dandy. None of us are perfect and I'm all in favor of having patience with those of us who aren't anal when it comes to English grammar, or lack the experience to do it well consistently, BUT,,,

What gets on my nerves, and I suspect is at the heart of a lot the flamers' frustrations, is the current trend by some to intentionally butcher the language as a kind 'style'. I'm talking about the kind of people who deliberately avoid capitalization and punctuation (and most other grammar conventions) because they think it's cool or something.

I suppose there is a place for that kind of stuff, but anyone who's read more than two or three threads around here knows that we aren't a bunch of confused teenagers. There are teenagers here, of course, but in general they car enough to communicate in a way that most of the board members can follow.

I think that's all most of us are asking for - just the slightest respect for the people you expect to be reading your post.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 8:51 AM

KELLAINA


I wasn't initially going to respond to this, but it's been bothering me, so here I go.

Fremdfirma wrote:
Quote:

I think a lotta folks weren't offended so much by the grammar as the trolling, and simply jumped on that issue as well.


Bingo!

Yes, grammar was an issue with troll-boy, but that was the point. He wanted that response (and obviously many of us needed to vent). Maybe we shouldn't have fed the troll, but he did go away.

As for Samni, I could see how people initially though he/she was a troll. There were multiple threads posted (several of which were almost completely ignored), and two threads about leaving the board and the rest of us not getting 'it'. In this case ignoring the other threads only led to the creation of more threads, which led to the grammar/spelling issue in Samni's posts. Most of what was said was constructive and was meant to be helpful.

I guess what is bothering me about this is the implication that a group of browncoats are inconsiderate, unkind 'grammar-philes' ready to jump down the throats of anyone who makes a mistake simply because they chose to respond to an admitted troll (ndugu NOT Samni). I understand the point you're trying to make, but I'm not sure this is the way to go about it.

*I apologize if this isn't as coherent as I intended, I'm trying very hard not to offend anyone by accident (the whole spoken vs written thing).

If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. -"Angel"

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 10:27 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

Originally posted by Kellaina:
I wasn't initially going to respond to this, but it's been bothering me, so here I go.

I guess what is bothering me about this is the implication that a group of browncoats are inconsiderate, unkind 'grammar-philes' ready to jump down the throats of anyone who makes a mistake simply because they chose to respond to an admitted troll (ndugu NOT Samni). I understand the point you're trying to make, but I'm not sure this is the way to go about it.

*I apologize if this isn't as coherent as I intended, I'm trying very hard not to offend anyone by accident (the whole spoken vs written thing).

I wouldn't have written this if I didn't expect honest responses.

And if not here, then where? I thought about doing it as a blog, but once that got buried, no one would see it again unless they looked up my profile on a whim and I'm not important enough for that. I also don't get into enough trouble for that either.

I'm also not saying that Sanmi's writing initially didn't make my teeth hurt just to read, because it was pretty painful. There was some improvement, thanks to Zoid.

However, one post I saw involved an honest (although blatantly unskilled) effort by Sanmi to inform us of one of Alan Tudyk's new projects with TNT ("Into the West," which is a real deal). The single reply was from one of the fans here saying that reading it made them want to start another Grammar Nazi thread. No thank you for sharing the information, no advice on how to correctly write the link - nothing. Next thing I know, it's in Troll Country. Then when Sanmi kept getting flamed in other posts (and granted, the woe-is-I posts were pretty pathetic), it started bugging me and I had to write about it.

I know phenominally bad grammar is one clear sign that the originator is a troll, but it shouldn't condemn someone before they even get a chance to be included in this fandom. I understand that ngudu had everyone on edge (with good reason), but it seems some folks are getting just a tad jumpy. Not all the time... but often.

Back in the day, Succatash used to stir things up too. He did it creatively, and he caused a ruckus, but his view and voraciousness were respected. These days, he may have been labeled a troll.

Heck, I'm expecting to be troll-i-fied any minute now.

Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
I draw...therefore I am. http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922
Minnesota Meetup - join us! http://firefly.meetup.com/45/

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 10:33 AM

FREMDFIRMA


>>Heck, I'm expecting to be troll-i-fied any minute now.<<

OOOooo... can we storm the castle with torches and pitchforks ? I always love the part when we do that !

Hahah, just kiddin Chan *huggles*

It's all gooood.

-F

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 10:35 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
OOOooo... can we storm the castle with torches and pitchforks ? I always love the part when we do that !

Hahah, just kiddin Chan *huggles*

It's all gooood.

-F

I'll provide the marshmallows.

Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
I draw...therefore I am. http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922
Minnesota Meetup - join us! http://firefly.meetup.com/45/

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 12:00 PM

CHRISISALL


The fact that most of us are open to questioning our perceptions of ourselves or what we do is somewhat comforting.

Hey Sergeantx, was that supposed to be c-a-r-e on that last post?

Being funny helps, too.

The sometimes introspective(but mostly obtuse) Chrisisall

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 12:10 PM

KELLAINA


Quote:

Originally posted by Channain:
I wouldn't have written this if I didn't expect honest responses.

And if not here, then where? I thought about doing it as a blog, but once that got buried, no one would see it again unless they looked up my profile on a whim and I'm not important enough for that. I also don't get into enough trouble for that either.



I'm not sure. I think it was more the tone (which could have just been my reading of your post and not your intention - one of the difficulties of the 'net!). To me it just seemed a bit accusatory.

Maybe we need a general 'forum etiquette' thread, or a how-to guide for new posters or something like that.

Quote:

I'm also not saying that Sanmi's writing initially didn't make my teeth hurt just to read, because it was pretty painful. There was some improvement, thanks to Zoid.

However, one post I saw involved an honest (although blatantly unskilled) effort by Sanmi to inform us of one of Alan Tudyk's new projects with TNT ("Into the West," which is a real deal). The single reply was from one of the fans here saying that reading it made them want to start another Grammar Nazi thread. No thank you for sharing the information, no advice on how to correctly write the link - nothing. Next thing I know, it's in Troll Country. Then when Sanmi kept getting flamed in other posts (and granted, the woe-is-I posts were pretty pathetic), it started bugging me and I had to write about it.



Ahhh... I missed that one Working off the belief Samni was not a troll I didn't bother to check in Troll Country (and it must have fallen off Samni's latest posts list). I can definitely see where you're coming from now (just needed a bit more context ).

Quote:

I know phenominally bad grammar is one clear sign that the originator is a troll, but it shouldn't condemn someone before they even get a chance to be included in this fandom. I understand that ngudu had everyone on edge (with good reason), but it seems some folks are getting just a tad jumpy. Not all the time... but often.


I agree, everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt (is that the correct phrase? It sounds right in my head but looks odd written down.)

I think we're all just a bit protective of FF and the community that's risen from it.

Quote:

Back in the day, Succatash used to stir things up too. He did it creatively, and he caused a ruckus, but his view and voraciousness were respected. These days, he may have been labeled a troll.

Heck, I'm expecting to be troll-i-fied any minute now.



Whatever happened to Succatash?

I can't help but wonder if this confusion is only going to get worse the closer Serenity gets. With new fans coming on board, it's likely new trolls may find their way here. And there's also the possibility of more cases of mistaken identity a la ndugu/Samni.

I really hope no one takes this opportunity to troll-i-fy you. As you said at the beginning, you expected honest responses, and trolling will get us nowhere. At least the troll-fear hasn't gotten to the point where you felt you couldn't post this, and I felt I couldn't respond.

Maybe this is a good time to discuss this problem (is there a problem? Why/why not? If so, what is it? Exam booklets will be picked up in one hour ), and get everything out in the open, so come September we'll all be free to discuss Serenity until we can't type anymore!


If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. -"Angel"

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 12:59 PM

CAITE


I totally understand where everyone is coming from on this thread. I am one of the FFF.net Grammar Brigade, and in fact I started it. However, I personally do not comment on anyone's grammar UNLESS the person is so obviously a troll...such as ngudu. I started the Grammar Brigade as a joke, and I put it in "Talk Story," so that people wouldn't get too offended

My fellow Brigaders, I agree that we should be as kind as we can, unless the person is so obviously a troll that it's ridiculous. If we get another ngudu, then all bets are off. However, if it's just a regular poster and they have grammar difficulties, let's channel Paula Abdul and not Simon Cowell

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 3:00 PM

CALLMEATH


When I posted on the Grammar Brigade thread, I was thinking solely of people I see in my everyday life. In fact, all of my pet peeves were things I would hear, not read. I was talking about people who should know better, who grew up in the States and had the same education as me, but just chose to ignore it.

Never once did a post from another Browncoat enter my mind. Everyone here is awesome and I would never dream of intentionally being mean to any FF fans. Especially over something as trivial as grammar. Besides, I expect people to be lazy when typing. Not everyone can be anal and proofread their posts like me.

If I hurt anyone's feelings in any way, I cry your pardon. Feel free to leave me evil messages. I am, after all, an Ath.

"Invader's blood marches through my veins like giant radioactive rubber pants. The pants command me! Do not ignore my veins!"

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 3:10 PM

MONTANAGIRL


I want to add my two cents to this discussion, and I don't want this to come across as negative. I really don't mean it that way.

When I see a post that is one long run-on sentence with rampant misspellings and no punctuation, I simply CAN'T read it. You might have the most brilliant idea or insight into a situation, but I'm not going to know it because it's too difficult for me to sift through what was written and translate it into something that makes sense to me. (I'm thinking specifically of a thread a while back that started out "I cry FOWL!" and went downhill from there.) It's just too much work. And I'm lazy.

Random mistakes don't bother me, because the idea is still clear. (Yes, the whole they're/their/there thing is one of my pet peeves, but I'm going to know what you meant even if you used the wrong one. ) Everybody misspells or forgets a punctuation mark or doesn't capitalize or misuses a word from time to time. That's just part of being human.

It's all about communication, and the "style" that Sergeant X talked about is a hindrance to that.

By the way, kudos to the non-native speakers on this board. Your English is wonderful! I usually don't know that it's not your native language until someone mentions where they're from.

So, did that muddy up the waters?

If you can be an idiot, I can be an idiot. - D'Argo

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 3:19 PM

ELWOODMOM


Quote:

Originally posted by Malicious:
Channain, that was WAY more than "a word" by my count! There were at least 40 or 50 words, I think.

Mal-licious

I think I will add cursing and the hurling about of things to my repertoire.



Channain, you must forgive Malicious. It will be her half-birthday in May, and nobody has planned a party yet!


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Thursday, April 14, 2005 3:19 PM

CHRISISALL


In this forum you cannot talk or use sign language. You can only type the words, and doing so well facilitates what you are trying to communicate to everyone else. I'm extremely forgiving of occassional(and not so occassional) errors, but continuous, rampant errors that hurt mybrAin runforkivaple!

I lo stth abilitee to tyPE Chrisisall

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 11:48 PM

BARNEYT


Time, I think, to go back to Channain's (and Static's) original point...

If a person's style of writing annoys you, or you find if difficult to read and too much effort, then skip the post... There isn't going to be a test afterwards, no-one's going to get penalized for not reading everything!



---
"I think the right place to start is to say, fair is fair. This is who we are. These are our numbers." Mr Willis of Ohio - The West Wing

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Friday, April 15, 2005 3:38 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

SargeantX wrote
BUT,,,

That "..." is called an elipsis, did you know that? I didn't, until my tech school transcription course, an age and a half ago. The voice on the tape said "blah blah blah elipsis blah blah." Twenty-five of us rewound the tape something like 50 times each, and we came up with twenty-five different spellings of the word, but never came up with "..." How funny is that?
Quote:

SargeantX wrote
What gets on my nerves, and I suspect is at the heart of a lot the flamers' frustrations, is the current trend by some to intentionally butcher the language as a kind 'style'. I'm talking about the kind of people who deliberately avoid capitalization and punctuation (and most other grammar conventions) because they think it's cool or something.

I used to write e-mail without initial capitalizing. That started when I saw someone with a master's degree in creative writing doing it only all the time. She knew her punctuation, though, so even without initial capping her sentences it was easy enough to read. I figured if someone with that much education was okay with it, then why not? It got too hard to twist my brain around, since I'd been brainwashed at an early age toward initial caps, so I gave up.

The "run-on sentences with no punctuation" style was recently used in National Geographic, which, let's face it, hasn't really changed its basic style for 150 years... or however long that mag has been in circulation. They used Initial caps to start their sentences. Interestingly enough, the article was about caffeine.

So-called "style" can be used intelligently, so long as the user picks one version and sticks with it. Still, most of us are more accustomed to tradition, which means punctuation (periods, please!) where it's supposed to be and initial capping where it's supposed to be too. Not everybody is a walking talking dictionary, and I think most of us can look past all that... right Chris?

Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
I draw...therefore I am. http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922
Minnesota Meetup - join us! http://firefly.meetup.com/45/

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Friday, April 15, 2005 5:47 AM

SERGEANTX


C'mon... this isn't a tolerance issue. You know what I'm talking about. It's like the kid who goes to a job interview speaking in convoluted 'ebonics' and walks away upset because he was rejected.

I'm fine with changes in style and form. The beauty of the English language is that it can withstand such ebbs and flows without disintegrating. That's not the issue.

In most of the cases I'm referring to, it is virtually impossible to understand what the person is trying to say. I can't be sure if this is a 'style' issue or because they just don't care enough to be clear. I tend toward the latter conclusion, because I've read the kind of liberalized formatting you've mentioned and it can be done reasonably.

I know it's relatively petty, and I'm not condoning flame wars on someone who writes a useless post. But they could at least try to consider who will be reading it. If it's obvious the readers won't understand it, then they should be prepared for people to be confused and annoyed. My observation is that often it seems 'confusing and annoying' is the intention.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Friday, April 15, 2005 6:31 AM

SERGEANTX


By the way, would anyone be up for a campaign to bring Succatash back? Or is that one of those 'be careful what you wish for' kind of things?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Friday, April 15, 2005 7:10 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
C'mon... this isn't a tolerance issue. You know what I'm talking about. It's like the kid who goes to a job interview speaking in convoluted 'ebonics' and walks away upset because he was rejected.

I know exactly what you're talking about. But how are the kids and non-English fluent writers going to learn the right way if we don't take the time to teach them?
Quote:

In most of the cases I'm referring to, it is virtually impossible to understand what the person is trying to say. I can't be sure if this is a 'style' issue or because they just don't care enough to be clear. I tend toward the latter conclusion, because I've read the kind of liberalized formatting you've mentioned and it can be done reasonably
Sadly, I lean toward the latter my self, particularly with the teenagers. I mean like how can you like learn to like write if you don't like even know how to talk like you know?

(I originally wrote that with commas around each "like" and realized it wasn't authentic.)

I'd TOTALLY be up for a campaign to bring Tash back. I miss that strange son of a so and so.

Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
I draw...therefore I am. http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922
Minnesota Meetup - join us! http://firefly.meetup.com/45/

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Friday, April 15, 2005 7:15 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

Originally posted by Elwoodmom:
Quote:

Originally posted by Malicious:
Channain, that was WAY more than "a word" by my count! There were at least 40 or 50 words, I think.

Mal-licious

I think I will add cursing and the hurling about of things to my repertoire.

Channain, you must forgive Malicious. It will be her half-birthday in May, and nobody has planned a party yet!


Heck, Mal is totally forgiven. Besides, she's right. I think with the edits, the first post on this thread is up close to 500 words.

And can we get away without planning a birthday shindig? I mean this is Mal-licious we're talking about.

Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
I draw...therefore I am. http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922
Minnesota Meetup - join us! http://firefly.meetup.com/45/

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Friday, April 15, 2005 9:50 AM

BARNEYT


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
By the way, would anyone be up for a campaign to bring Succatash back? Or is that one of those 'be careful what you wish for' kind of things?

SergeantX



It probably is... but are we browncoats the sort to worry about that sort of thing? Nah...


So what do we do? A postcard campaign? Or should we go straight to the advert in Variety?


---
"I think the right place to start is to say, fair is fair. This is who we are. These are our numbers." Mr Willis of Ohio - The West Wing

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Friday, April 15, 2005 10:16 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


“The Big Brain Am Winning Again! I Am The Greetest! Ha ha ha ha ha! Now I Am Leaving Earth For No Raison !”
-- The Main Brain (From Futurama episode “The Day the Earth Stood Stupid”)

We could all learn to communicate better, and we all could stand to be a little more patient.


-------------
Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.

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Friday, April 15, 2005 10:59 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Channain:
Still, most of us are more accustomed to tradition, which means punctuation (periods, please!) where it's supposed to be and initial capping where it's supposed to be too. Not everybody is a walking talking dictionary, and I think most of us can look past all that... right Chris?



Okay. I went back over every post of mine since I discovered this wonderful place, and I counted no less than 123 spelling errors, 64 letters that should have been capitalized, 42 punctuation errors, and 14 really badly worded sentances.

The very humbled Chrisisall

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Friday, April 15, 2005 11:16 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Okay. I went back over every post of mine since I discovered this wonderful place, and I counted no less than 123 spelling errors, 64 letters that should have been capitalized, 42 punctuation errors, and 14 really badly worded sentances.

The very humbled Chrisisall

I would have to admire that level of ambitiousness. Good on you mate

Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
I draw...therefore I am. http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922
Minnesota Meetup - join us! http://firefly.meetup.com/45/

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Friday, April 15, 2005 11:34 AM

MALICIOUS


Yeah, but did you fix 'em??

Mal-licious

I think I will add cursing and the hurling about of things to my repertoire.

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Friday, April 15, 2005 11:57 AM

CHRISISALL


Know what? I didn't actually read all of them, that's just where I got tired and stopped.
Even goin' fast, readin' them all would've taken all day long....(and the numbers would've gotten worse)

I'll not make fun of anybody's posts again.

Unless they ask for it!

The only half-ambitious Chrisisall

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Friday, April 15, 2005 12:01 PM

CHRISISALL


Nah, would've slowed me down even more.


Chrisisall the snail

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Friday, April 15, 2005 9:13 PM

SOUPCATCHER


Quote:

Originally posted by tlacook:
Nice! I am going to write that author down.


The author really didn't delve too much into the language aspect. It was something that was briefly touched on at the beginning of many of the adventures and then not mentioned again. Short synopsis: Oversized psi and various companions travel to different isolated worlds and start grassroot revolts to overthrow corrupt regimes. Fun popcorn reading.

Oh, and put me down in the "We Miss Succatash" column.

---------------------
Next up: Early "Nutcrusher" Jubal and the Firebuggers

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Friday, April 15, 2005 10:46 PM

CALHOUN


I'm kinda partial to niceness myself but is it possible you guys are getting just a tad overly sensitive..

P.S. Is it gramatically correct to have 2 full stops at the end of my sentence? I apologise if it is not.




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