GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Concerning Art/Work Theft from the Blue Sun Room

POSTED BY: CASSANDRAE
UPDATED: Monday, January 3, 2005 23:03
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2732
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Wednesday, December 29, 2004 11:40 AM

CASSANDRAE


Hello there,

This is Cassandra E, I usually lurk around the board. I've posted my fanfic here, as some my readers know. But the matter that I'm writing about is concerning my Firefly art/fanart pieces. I've posted them at the BlueSun Room ever since I've had the good fortune in learning by tooth and nail how to make them. It isn't easy, sometimes it takes me hours to finish one wallpaper. A lot goes into it.

But I know in the end, it's worth my trouble. Because it helps hone my skills and because I know other Firefly fans might take a little enjoyment from them. And at the heart of the matter, I love my show. I try to show that through my work.

So you know, I consider myself a pretty lenient person, concerning where I post my work, be it fanart or fanfic. I don't expect much, maybe a little feedback here and there.

You can imagine how...irkedI was when I was browsing through http://www.runner.ch/firefly/startseite.html

and found on of my pieces, cropped and in use in their animated banner that switches from image to image. Not onlyare they using my piece, but a lot of work that folks here, have posted at the BlueSun Room. I spotted Vrya's from Tangled Synthesis, EB's from Heroine Chic, also Dreamer's work. The image rotation varies from day to day. There's countless more, but I can't name them at the top of my head just now.

What most irritates me is the blatant disregard of just taking work, and cropping it to suit their web design needs. Not even a, "hey can I use this image for my site?" Or a "Do you mind if I use the image and crop it to use on my site?" Common courtesy, people! It isn't going to kill you. I don't own Firefly, nor its characters or the images and so forth. I don't make money off it. I state this very clearly in my disclaimer at my website. I own the time and effort I placed in making the work. See that piece above? I made that. I choose how to arrange the images, which textures, filters, brushes and gradients to use. It may not seem like much, but it is.

I don't know if Haken can post like a notice in the Sun Room, stating if some individual wants to use the work posted there, other than using it as a desktop, they need to ask the artist/poster first.

I'm going to be writing a letter, I have someone who's going to translate it for me, seeing as how it's a German site. I believe the very same people were the ones that were hotlinking this very site a year back.

After thinking hard on it. I decided I won't be posting my artwork here anymore. If anyone is interested in seeing my work, you can do so at my site when its finally upload: http://refined-grace.geministar.org/

I'm posting this here, because it isn't just my work. It's other's work too.


Cassandra E




~~~~~~~~~~~
MAL: "I'll never understand rich folk. All that money, this is what they do with it."
INARA:"It's art."
Mal: "It's puppets."
Inara: "It's puppet art."--Heart of Gold, Transcript


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Wednesday, December 29, 2004 12:17 PM

EMBERS


Quote:

Originally posted by Cassandrae:
You can imagine how...irkedI was when I was browsing through http://www.runner.ch/firefly/startseite.html

and found one of my pieces,
cropped and in use in their animated banner that switches from image to image.

After thinking hard on it. I decided I won't be posting my artwork here anymore. If anyone is interested in seeing my work, you can do so at my site when its finally upload:
http://refined-grace.geministar.org/

Cassandra E


Cassandra, I'm really sorry this has happened.

I really think that even when we save artwork to use as a personal WP, it is important to save it with the name of the artist (so that years later you can always credit them when showing it to friends).

I've always appreciated the fact tha Haken has made it so easy for people to post artwork and/or fanfic here...but it also has the downside of making it easy for others to take the work without crediting the hard work of those who produced it.

Thank you for your site address, so we don't lose out completely on your beautiful work.

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Wednesday, December 29, 2004 12:50 PM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Hey Cassandrae -

I've been stolen myself. One of the Browncoat sites out there grabbed my portrait of Mal and posted it on their site. It's not even in the Blue Sun Room - it's on my artist page at mnartists.org. They also didn't ask before "borrowing." At the time I didn't care and even joked about being good enough to be stolen. On the one hand, it's quite a compliment, but on the other... well, not so much, is it?

Thing is, posting on the Web is problematic in terms of artistic copyright. Anyone can go anywhere and grab anything - ask any of the techie boys and girls around here and they'll tell you the same thing. Even various attempts at blocking can be circumvented if the user is canny enough. And pseudo watermarks can also be eliminated. Photoshop, as you are well aware, is a very powerful tool. "Borrowing" is going to happen,and posting here - where there is no "borrowing" ever - is only a drop in a very big black bucket.

In response to my giddiness over being stolen, I got a pretty tetchy e-mail from the Web mistress. She was offended that I had insinuated she had committed petty Internet larceny. She seemed to think that putting my name under it made it all legal, but I mentioned that had she asked me first before borrowing, there wouldn't have been any insinuation at all. She did apologize in the end, and I got a link to my artist page. It was an educational experience all around.

My point is, you need to go to the source of your irritation. If possible, send a note to the designers of the Web site and advise them that they need to send a request to the artists before using their work, or at least crediting them with it. This one, of course, is a German language site, but they must have some basic understanding of English. Send them your fire and brimstone - you might be surprised.

Incidentally, this is the piece I had stolen. I can't get it uploaded here for some reason, or I would have ages ago.

"It's Enough"
http://www.mnartists.org/work.do?rid=22136

Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
I draw...therefore I am. http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922
Minnesota Meetup - join us! http://firefly.meetup.com/45/

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Wednesday, December 29, 2004 1:07 PM

CASSANDRAE


Channain,

I completely agree with everything you said. The lines alway become murky once you hit the internet and fan boards. People tend to forget basic manners they should use in 'real life'. A please or a thank you don't go unnoticed.

See, I wouldn't have minded or my ire wouldn't have been that great if they asked me. I mean, it's common sense, you know. You borrow something from someone, a book or a picture..."Can please read that? Or can I please use that?"

I will be writing that letter, trust me. And that Mal piece of yours has always been one of my favorites.

Cassie E

~~~~~~~~~~~
MAL: "I'll never understand rich folk. All that money, this is what they do with it."
INARA:"It's art."
Mal: "It's puppets."
Inara: "It's puppet art."--Heart of Gold, Transcript

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Wednesday, December 29, 2004 1:11 PM

TLACOOK


I noticed there is some of 11th's artwork over there and her sig has been removed from the drawings.

I wish I knew German!

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Wednesday, December 29, 2004 1:19 PM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Yeah, me too....

Tash? Oh TAAAASH!

Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
I draw...therefore I am. http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922
Minnesota Meetup - join us! http://firefly.meetup.com/45/

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Wednesday, December 29, 2004 2:20 PM

ZOID


Cassandrae:

I once had an entire website ripped off and represented at another's site as their own work. Mine was called "ATC Library" and had over 16MB of primarily text and hand-optimized graphics. It took me the better part of 6 months just to convert documents (in 1994, when the Web was still wet behind the ears). These a$$holes bypassed my frameset navigation and framed my content pages on their own site, without so much as a 'kiss my ass' said beforehand.

So, I created a new directory on the server, and moved the whole site down a level into that directory. Then I went to their site and checked for my pages: All gone bye-bye. Since all my links were relative, all my nav still worked. I kept checking on their site for a couple of weeks; but they seemed to be having a problem with their navigation interface, since they were having to use full URLs for over 3,000 entries. They eventually gave up and pulled my stuff from their site.

Theft is just plain wrong. It doesn't matter, IMO, that the materials you used were not original productions. You added value to those images, and they took that value without permission by or compensation to you.

On the other hand, I don't think it's necessarily theft if they credit you and add their own artistic expression to it. That way the consumer has the right to choose between your version and theirs, knowing that the two versions exist and that theirs is a derivation of yours. For example, if my a$$holes had taken my text (crediting my site) and reworked the HTML, re-styled the design, something, anything, and then stored it on their own site's server, I'd've said, "Fair enough. Let the users decide which format fits them best." Instead, they took undeserved credit for my effort, all the while stealing my server's bandwidth.

I guess my point is that I can sympathize, and you're not wrong for feeling this way. You wuz robbed...


Commiseratingly,

zoid

P.S.
With Dreamweaver, for example, the thieves could now automatically rename all their absolute URLs in less than 10 minutes and successfully rip me off, which is no small part of why I don't dabble in web design anymore. With a high-speed connection and over-the-counter tools, a miscreant could probably rip the whole FFFn site in less than 3 hours, even if it's got a really complex structure. Then they could post whatever pieces and parts -- or everything in it -- on the Net, as their own original work. But I'm not going to let the possibility of thievery stop me from expressing myself here.

I hope you will reconsider your decision to stop expressing yourself here, too. We want to see, what you have to say...
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

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Thursday, December 30, 2004 4:13 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

Zoid Said
[b/]I once had an entire website ripped off and represented at another's site as their own work.

So, that's just wrong. Plain and Simple.
Quote:

Zoid Said
On the other hand, I don't think it's necessarily theft if they credit you and add their own artistic expression to it. That way the consumer has the right to choose between your version and theirs, knowing that the two versions exist and that theirs is a derivation of yours.

Ummm... wait, let me get this straight. As long as the artist gets the credit for the original work, it's okay if a Web designer takes the artist's personally created vision and rearranges it for their own purposes?

Now if the designer made a full proposal first and I got approval of the final piece, that would be a different story - rather like when a publisher commissions artwork for book covers. Otherwise, without permission or approval.

I'm just sayin'. Some artists are more easy-going about it. A pewter artist looked at a pendant I had made a slight adjustment to - adding a small crystal to an accurate likeness of Vincent from Beauty and the Beast - and LOVED it. Someone else might holler and scream and make a spectacle of themselves.

Artists can be pretty gorram tetchy sometimes
Quote:

Zoid added
I hope you will reconsider your decision to stop expressing yourself here, too. We want to see, what you have to say...

I whole-heartedly agree. Halting your contributions to this Web site means the big bad wins. I would hate to have the true Flans here deprived of your truly supershiny work because of some callous uncouth jerk's insensitive blunder. Maybe we should all post with a request to please give us credit when we're being stolen, and from whom. It's the very least they could do.

Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
I draw...therefore I am. http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922
Minnesota Meetup - join us! http://firefly.meetup.com/45/

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Thursday, December 30, 2004 7:33 AM

WYDRAZ


I learned this lesson a long time ago. So I've decided that any artwork I post to the web is for the world to do with as it may. Stuff I don't want "borrowed" I simply don't post. It's a tough decision, but that is the way of the world (wide web).

One technique I use is to post stuff that is of a lesser resolution than the original that I own. So if it ever comes down to who owns the piece, I can always pull out the original to help prove it. It's a small and relatively useless measure, but it lets me sleep at night.



Oh, and play Strange Adventures in Infinite Space. http://digital-eel.com/sais

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Thursday, December 30, 2004 8:10 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

Originally posted by wydraz:
I learned this lesson a long time ago. So I've decided that any artwork I post to the web is for the world to do with as it may. Stuff I don't want "borrowed" I simply don't post. It's a tough decision, but that is the way of the world (wide web).

That's basically my philosophy as well.
Quote:

Originally posted by wydraz:
One technique I use is to post stuff that is of a lesser resolution than the original that I own. So if it ever comes down to who owns the piece, I can always pull out the original to help prove it. It's a small and relatively useless measure, but it lets me sleep at night.

Good advice! Limited engagements is another way. Make a note to yourself to pull it down after awhile. That way if someone's stealing badwidth, eventually they'd also end up with a bad rep for having broken links on their site. Think of it as an electronic limited print run.

Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
I draw...therefore I am. http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922
Minnesota Meetup - join us! http://firefly.meetup.com/45/

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Thursday, December 30, 2004 11:18 AM

RHYMEPHILE


Huh. That sucks. I also noticed one of Hell's Kitten's works, too, the one image that has the whole cast lined up with a slight glow around them. I remembered it because I commented on it when I saw it in the Blue Sun Room.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."

-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law

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Thursday, December 30, 2004 2:49 PM

ZOID


Channain responded thus:
Quote:

...
Quote:


Zoid Said
On the other hand, I don't think it's necessarily theft if they credit you and add their own artistic expression to it. That way the consumer has the right to choose between your version and theirs, knowing that the two versions exist and that theirs is a derivation of yours.



Ummm... wait, let me get this straight. As long as the artist gets the credit for the original work, it's okay if a Web designer takes the artist's personally created vision and rearranges it for their own purposes?

Now if the designer made a full proposal first and I got approval of the final piece, that would be a different story - rather like when a publisher commissions artwork for book covers. Otherwise, without permission or approval.

I'm just sayin'. Some artists are more easy-going about it. A pewter artist looked at a pendant I had made a slight adjustment to - adding a small crystal to an accurate likeness of Vincent from Beauty and the Beast - and LOVED it. Someone else might holler and scream and make a spectacle of themselves.

Artists can be pretty gorram tetchy sometimes...


This isn't my idea. But, I was surfing 'copyleft' sites a while back and ran across this one: http://artlibre.org/licence.php/lalgb.html . It basically establishes (or attempts to) the right to practice what so many fanartists here at FFFn do. Take someone else's digital images (i.e., from the Internet) and modify them into a new piece of art. I like the idea, since it allows artists like Cassandra E to express themselves without having access to the subjects of her art, the actors of Firefly in this case.

But if the shoe fits our foot, it must fit the feet of others as well. Obviously, this is intended for the visual arts, but it may be logically extended to the written word as well. In this way, fanfics -- original works derived from someone else's stories, characters and settings -- can become legitimate expressions. Of course, the original work must be properly credited.

I think even JW would probably agree that derivative works like those on FFFn have prolonged and extended his vision -- not watered it down -- and increased the value of his fiction to the larger populace. The crime occurs when unscrupulous types claim the 'applied artistry' is an original work of their own, with no credit to the author...


Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
I think your example of your pewter piece is not only a prime example of this concept of reworking art to your own tastes (analogous to having separate pics of BDMs, and wanting them to better serve your needs in the form of a collage), but a perfect example of art serving the end user, rather than the artist. Why does the artist create art? As a form of self-expression, yes, but ultimately as something to share with others, too. Those others should be able to amend it to suit their needs, keeping in mind that if they intend to republish it, they must credit the original creator. If they sell it, they should pay royalties.
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

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Thursday, December 30, 2004 4:38 PM

LEXIBLOCK


Whine whine whine.

You cobble something together from what others have done and whine about "common courtesy" - shut up already. -

You put it on the net, people are going to spread it. You don't want that, then don't do it. Nobody owes you anything.

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Thursday, December 30, 2004 5:15 PM

ZOID



LexiBlock wrote:
Quote:

Whine whine whine.

You cobble something together from what others have done and whine about "common courtesy" - shut up already. -

You put it on the net, people are going to spread it. You don't want that, then don't do it. Nobody owes you anything.


Good point. Wear a big hat, maybe nobody will notice...

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Thursday, December 30, 2004 5:15 PM

CASSANDRAE


Quote:

Originally posted by wydraz:
I learned this lesson a long time ago. So I've decided that any artwork I post to the web is for the world to do with as it may. Stuff I don't want "borrowed" I simply don't post. It's a tough decision, but that is the way of the world (wide web).

One technique I use is to post stuff that is of a lesser resolution than the original that I own. So if it ever comes down to who owns the piece, I can always pull out the original to help prove it. It's a small and relatively useless measure, but it lets me sleep at night.



I gotta say though, I like the lesser resolution idea, I just might take to it.

~~~~~~~~~~~
MAL: "I'll never understand rich folk. All that money, this is what they do with it."
INARA:"It's art."
Mal: "It's puppets."
Inara: "It's puppet art."--Heart of Gold, Transcript

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Thursday, December 30, 2004 5:40 PM

CASSANDRAE


Quote:

Originally posted by LexiBlock:
Whine whine whine.

You cobble something together from what others have done and whine about "common courtesy" - shut up already. -

You put it on the net, people are going to spread it. You don't want that, then don't do it. Nobody owes you anything.



I can whine, whine, whine, whenever the hell it strikes me. And common courtesy, obviously not so common. Seeing how its lacking in yourself. Or maybe I was brought up differently. Better yet, maybe you should take your own advice and ~shut up as well~ And for your information, I greatly respect that something others have done, if I wasn't I would be so inclined to take credit for it, and maybe make a profit or two.

But that's not the case.

I'm not as ignorant in the matter, that "Geez I don't expect people to take things." I seen it happen before, numerous times-- it still doesn't make it right.

Your kind of thinking, while realistic, also helps enable the same behavior that the individuals from this website are doing. And not just my work, emphasis on work, and not Firefly, but other talented individuals as well.

And I want to do it, I love my show and my craft. One day, I'll be making my own, and if someone takes my work, chops it up with no by or leave, I can whine and raise a stink if I want too. It's my right.

If you don't want to hear it, then don't read it. Frankly, I thought it was something to be brought up, since these were the same people who were hotlinking to this site a while back.

Cassie E


~~~~~~~~~~~
MAL: "I'll never understand rich folk. All that money, this is what they do with it."
INARA:"It's art."
Mal: "It's puppets."
Inara: "It's puppet art."--Heart of Gold, Transcript

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Thursday, December 30, 2004 6:19 PM

NEROLI


Quote:

Originally posted by LexiBlock:
Whine whine whine.

You cobble something together from what others have done and whine about "common courtesy" - shut up already. -

You put it on the net, people are going to spread it. You don't want that, then don't do it. Nobody owes you anything.



No, nobody owes anyone anything, it's just that some of us were raised with better manners than to take someone else's work and not give them credit for it.

If you bothered to check out Cassandra E's site you would see that she does credit her sources.

So she is only asking for the same respect that she shows to others and alerting the other people that post their work in the Blue Sun Room to what is going on.

If you wish to view that as "whining" go right ahead, just be prepared if some of us disagree with you.

The Old Broad Monkey

http://lurid-eidolon.org/fireflyawards/index.php

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Thursday, December 30, 2004 6:20 PM

NEROLI


sorry, double post.

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Thursday, December 30, 2004 11:12 PM

CASSANDRAE


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
Cassandrae:

I once had an entire website ripped off and represented at another's site as their own work. Mine was called "ATC Library" and had over 16MB of primarily text and hand-optimized graphics. It took me the better part of 6 months just to convert documents (in 1994, when the Web was still wet behind the ears). These a$$holes bypassed my frameset navigation and framed my content pages on their own site, without so much as a 'kiss my ass' said beforehand.

So, I created a new directory on the server, and moved the whole site down a level into that directory. Then I went to their site and checked for my pages: All gone bye-bye. Since all my links were relative, all my nav still worked. I kept checking on their site for a couple of weeks; but they seemed to be having a problem with their navigation interface, since they were having to use full URLs for over 3,000 entries. They eventually gave up and pulled my stuff from their site.

Theft is just plain wrong. It doesn't matter, IMO, that the materials you used were not original productions. You added value to those images, and they took that value without permission by or compensation to you.

On the other hand, I don't think it's necessarily theft if they credit you and add their own artistic expression to it. That way the consumer has the right to choose between your version and theirs, knowing that the two versions exist and that theirs is a derivation of yours. For example, if my a$$holes had taken my text (crediting my site) and reworked the HTML, re-styled the design, something, anything, and then stored it on their own site's server, I'd've said, "Fair enough. Let the users decide which format fits them best." Instead, they took undeserved credit for my effort, all the while stealing my server's bandwidth.

I guess my point is that I can sympathize, and you're not wrong for feeling this way. You wuz robbed...


Commiseratingly,

zoid

P.S.
With Dreamweaver, for example, the thieves could now automatically rename all their absolute URLs in less than 10 minutes and successfully rip me off, which is no small part of why I don't dabble in web design anymore. With a high-speed connection and over-the-counter tools, a miscreant could probably rip the whole FFFn site in less than 3 hours, even if it's got a really complex structure. Then they could post whatever pieces and parts -- or everything in it -- on the Net, as their own original work. But I'm not going to let the possibility of thievery stop me from expressing myself here.

I hope you will reconsider your decision to stop expressing yourself here, too. We want to see, what you have to say...
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity



Zoid,

First off, I can't believe someone would just completely take your web design. Or even begin to state the reasons of how wrong that was. Some people these days don't have any respect whatsoever. And I'm speaking as beginning website coder myself. I've been learning the stuff from scratch, it's bloody hard work.

And I want to thank you for your support, and thus pointing out that I'm not completely wrong in what I was saying. I wouldn't have made such a big deal out of it, if wasn't that they stole so much from the BSunroom. And no credit given, at all.

I might rethink my not posting here with some changes in how I handle my work. Maybe the lesser resolution or limited posting of art is the way to go.

Again, thank you for your great insights and words. You say things so much better than I ever could.

Kind Regards,

Cassie E

~~~~~~~~~~~
MAL: "I'll never understand rich folk. All that money, this is what they do with it."
INARA:"It's art."
Mal: "It's puppets."
Inara: "It's puppet art."--Heart of Gold, Transcript

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Thursday, December 30, 2004 11:35 PM

CASSANDRAE


I want to add an Update on the situtation. Basically these folks have a gallery of art work, done by many artists here. A lot is recent stuff. I just checked now. It's hard to find, but it's under the galleries, in fan art.

Edit: I know many might not mind, but I know some may do. So if any posted in the Blue Sun Room, I would suggest checking it out if some of your work is there. And I retrack my statement in that they're cropping the images, it's just an image rotation thing.

But still, I mind in the just taking of things. And not a big deal to some, it just leads to more taking and using pther types of work in a different manner in another situation.

Cassie E

~~~~~~~~~~~
MAL: "I'll never understand rich folk. All that money, this is what they do with it."
INARA:"It's art."
Mal: "It's puppets."
Inara: "It's puppet art."--Heart of Gold, Transcript

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Thursday, December 30, 2004 11:45 PM

11THHOUR


Quote:

Originally posted by tlacook:
I noticed there is some of 11th's artwork over there and her sig has been removed from the drawings.

I wish I knew German!



Hey, I know a German!

(I'm sure I could get a choicely worded German e-mail written up for me, should I be so inclined... )

But seriously folks,

Actually, I would have felt left out if my art hadn't been used too...

Seeing my stuff used in the banner gave me a good larf. The snippet of my mock Firefly DVD billboard was really blurry... and from the angle of the art, it looks like it was cropped from the bigger "Marlboro Mal" image.

My other piece used was a section from my T-shirt design entry at the official Serenity site.

This particular type of art usage is not such a big deal to me. It's just a banner on a fan website that flashes small sections of the artwork. I posted the art for the enjoyment of fans, and that's how it's being used.

I would however, have a HUGE problem with anyone using my art to make money. That's a whole 'nother 'verse... and I'd be gettin' my opener, and a big can o' whoopass, for that there varmint...

11thHour

________________________________________________

"Because teenage pranks are fun when you're about to die!" - Hoban Washburn

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Friday, December 31, 2004 1:28 AM

GROUNDED


Someone 'borrowed' something from my site without permission a long time ago. I emailed them. They apologised and took down the offending item. Easy.

Of course some people might not be so cooperative, but it's worth a shot.

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Friday, December 31, 2004 2:32 AM

PSYCHICRIVER


Wow, thats sucks. I mean, it sounds like these people are fans, so I can't believe that they wouldnt show the respect to ask you first. It's a shame our show doesn't inspire greatness in all of us.

PsychicRiver

"Two by two, hands of blue."
"We can take care of each other. I'll knit!"

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Sunday, January 2, 2005 2:39 PM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

Posted by Lexiblock
Whine whine whine.
You cobble something together from what others have done and whine about "common courtesy" - shut up already.


Which part of Haken's request are you having the most trouble with? The Courteous or the insightful? Just curious. Can you say "troll" or maybe "Methinks thou dost protest too much."
Quote:

Zoid said
I think even JW would probably agree that derivative works like those on FFFn have prolonged and extended his vision -- not watered it down -- and increased the value of his fiction to the larger populace.


I agree, he probably would. He'd probably enjoy this entire conversation too.
Quote:

Zoid said
The crime occurs when unscrupulous types claim the 'applied artistry' is an original work of their own, with no credit to the author...I think your example of your pewter piece is not only a prime example of this concept of reworking art to your own tastes (analogous to having separate pics of BDMs, and wanting them to better serve your needs in the form of a collage), but a perfect example of art serving the end user, rather than the artist. Why does the artist create art? As a form of self-expression, yes, but ultimately as something to share with others, too. Those others should be able to amend it to suit their needs, keeping in mind that if they intend to republish it, they must credit the original creator. If they sell it, they should pay royalties.

So does this mean I should go back and credit the photographers or screen capturers for the portraits I did? Even though the pieces aren't digital? And where does public domain fall into all of this?

Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
I draw...therefore I am. http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922
Minnesota Meetup - join us! http://firefly.meetup.com/45/

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Sunday, January 2, 2005 4:06 PM

ZOID



Channain queried:
Quote:

... So does this mean I should go back and credit the photographers or screen capturers for the portraits I did? Even though the pieces aren't digital? And where does public domain fall into all of this?

Well, being neither an attorney nor a regular guest at Holiday Inn Express (TM), I'd have to say: It depends. When you say you did 'portraits', do you mean original drawings based upon photographs of famous public figures? If so, then that is what I would call 'pure art' as opposed to 'applied art'. Most portraitists have a subject pose; a photo is only a 'pose' in this application, unless the drawing is a tracery of the original photo.

The 'applied art' -- taking digital stock and reformatting it -- should credit its originator, as near as possible. Please note that Haken does this for this website as a whole:
"All FIREFLY related graphics and photos on this page are copyright 2002-2004 Mutant Enemy, Inc., Universal Pictures, and 20th Century Fox.
All other graphics and texts are copyright of the contributors to this website.
This website IS NOT affiliated with the Official Firefly Site, Mutant Enemy, Inc., or 20th Century Fox."

We should not do less than saying that the materials were borrowed. By the same token, the webmasters at the German site have borrowed our 'applied artworks' without leave, and without credit to the 'applied artist', implying that it is their own content, which it is not.

Note: The basis for my coined terms 'applied art' and 'pure art' comes from the concepts of 'applied science' versus 'pure science', and is supplied for purposes of analogy only. I daresay a copyright attorney would vehemently disagree...


Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

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Sunday, January 2, 2005 4:17 PM

TENTHCREWMEMBER

Could you please just make it stranger? Stranger. Odder. Could be weirder. More bizarre. How about uncanny?


Just curious (as I only have so much time each day now) anyone seen anything I have done stolen from the site? Not that I'd be too upset, kinda flattered it was worth taking, but simply curious.

I am however, given to the nature that the internet is full of slime that is generally malicious, and usually subversive, and frankly would be afraid to leave the boiler rooms they sulk in because if most of the people on the internet today could find the hackers/slicers/scam artists/spammers out there, we'd drop them off a cliff somewhere.

As for the credit, I try and give credit (such as to 11th Hour, whom I ASKED before I posted altered work of hers) where credit is due, but I assume that anyone who comes to a FANSITE and sees FAN CREATED WORK using the show's images understands that CREDIT to the original creator(s), actor(s) and film/set crew(s) is inherent by the very nature of the site.

That's just me.

Everyone who has something stolen from them has a right to complain, and even moreso if they have no recourse but to accept the fact that they risk having their things stolen and the villans will get away with it. What bugs me is when people say you have no right to whine because you should expect it. No. I should expect people to adhere to a higher standard. Be civilized. Not be apes who take what they want and beat the snot out of those who can not stop them. The internet's greatest feature is also its greatest flaw: anonimity.

Those of us here know who did what, when and generally how and why. Others can "steal" it, but it won't change what we know to be true. If it bothers you, complain about it. If it bothers you someone is complaining, ignore it (it is not like you are FORCED to read it and reply...unless maybe you live in an opressive monarchy or something, in which case you have my sympathies), and certainly be as polite or MORE POLITE than the person you are bothered by when you post about it, if you do. Most of all, don't let any of it stop you from continuing to be creative and make wonderful things for your fellow fans. It won't stop me. ;)


Never want to be the LCD!
TCM

(LCD: Lowest Common Denominator in case you didn't get schoolin')

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In Ohio? Join us!
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Sunday, January 2, 2005 4:38 PM

TENTHCREWMEMBER

Could you please just make it stranger? Stranger. Odder. Could be weirder. More bizarre. How about uncanny?


Quote:

Originally posted by Cassandrae:
http://www.runner.ch/firefly/startseite.html



They even have images ripped from the Serenity Movie Board...even worse, they are from the T-Shirt contest.

(EDIT) Seems, at the very least though, the images are in a fan art section of the website, and do not seem to be altered in any fashion there.

Devils Advocate,
TCM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Show your Browncoat pride! I have original (meaning: designed by me!)
T-shirts, posters, mugs and more for sale at
http://www.zazzle.com/contributors/home/default.asp?cid=23847914695881
5760

AND
http://www.cafepress.com/10thcrew
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In Ohio? Join us!
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Monday, January 3, 2005 10:00 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
When you say you did 'portraits', do you mean original drawings based upon photographs of famous public figures? If so, then that is what I would call 'pure art' as opposed to 'applied art'. Most portraitists have a subject pose; a photo is only a 'pose' in this application, unless the drawing is a tracery of the original photo.

Okay, that makes sense. Then yes, my work is pure art, since I work primarily in colored pencil. Occasionally I work in black and white graphite, but not so much anymore. I did a portrait for a client just recently of his two girls, but had to piece it together from several photos since siblings never do the same pose at the same time.

I'm meeting a lot of portrait and graphic artists myself who are finding live models problematic these days. Nobody has the patience to do it anymore, when they're so aware of photographic technology. And kids? Fuhgetaboutit.

When I use a public media photo, I try to use it simply as a basis for composition. For the Kaylee portrait "Shiny," I had to come up with the jacket pattern from scratch because there isn't a photo in the 'verse that showed the pattern clearly enough to copy. I got that out of a Chinese pattern book and applied the color scheme from the original fabric.

"It's enough" is a piece I wanted to do simply to capture the intensity in Mal's expression. In hindsight (and thanks to a great Color & Design class) I should have just kept to the base composition elements - eyes and facial features.

I sometimes have a hard time with "applied art" as you call it, but it depends on the technique. If the digital artist did something uniquely creative with the images, then it usually evokes a positive emotional response from me - Cassandrae's work is one of many excellent examples of that. But if someone just takes a static image and just puts a caption on it... is that still art?

Maybe I should be taking copyright law this quarter instead of intermediate drawing.

Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
I draw...therefore I am. http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922
Minnesota Meetup - join us! http://firefly.meetup.com/45/

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Monday, January 3, 2005 2:01 PM

ZOID


Channain wrote:
Quote:

...But if someone just takes a static image and just puts a caption on it... is that still art?

Ideally, yes. The user (since ownership becomes the stickiest possible wicket, with the rise of the Internet) has modified a piece of art to their tastes. This is what I call applied art. It need not please anyone except the user. Whether the user learns to use a software tool in order to mask and extract elements of an image and paste them into a new composition, arranged just so, and then adjust chroma and apply filters... or just use MS Paint to scribble in "My gal, Inara"... the user is still making the art personal for themself. That is the beauty of digital art. Interactivity with the art beckons the user in a way that canvas never can. Everyone can be an artist, and still have the digital original intact; try that with the Mona Lisa.

Channy also wrote:
Quote:

Maybe I should be taking copyright law this quarter instead of intermediate drawing.

LMAO! The beauty of being a lawyer, as opposed to being an artist, is that you don't have to be dead to make money doing it. If I had it all to do over again, I'd have been an agent rather than a musician. (Pssst! Not really. I have a soul.)


Respectfully,

zoid

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Monday, January 3, 2005 10:18 PM

HARDY


hi CASSANDRA and all the others...

i would like to apologize for what i dit...
i'm realy sorry

you are right, it was wrong to think that you'll be happy when other fans could see and use your works...

i just cancelled the fan-art section of my website and also the banners that i used for the rotating title...
instead i postet a link to the blue-sun-room


but i want to try to explain

i build this side for the german speaking browncoats; yes i know there are not so many yet - but there
will be, when the show will finaly be aired in germany...

i'm happy about every visitor and i never wandet to make anybody angry, cause i built the site for the fans
and not against them.

to keep my visitors happy i'm allways searching the web for news and interessting things around firefly...
... and as you know www.fireflyfans.net is one of the best places to find these things...

so i found your fantastic fan-arts and thought, it should not be a problem to copy them to make my site
look better.

i know, you spent alot of time to creat these famous pics... i know that, cause i spent alot of time too
by building the website...


i hope, you accept my apology

(and sorry for my bad english...)


keep flying

hardy



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mal: "Everybody dies alone"
http://beam.to/firefly (deutsche fanpage)
http://48688.forum.onetwomax.de (deutsches forum)

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Monday, January 3, 2005 11:03 PM

CASSANDRAE


Quote:

Originally posted by Hardy:
hi CASSANDRA and all the others...

i would like to apologize for what i dit...
i'm realy sorry

you are right, it was wrong to think that you'll be happy when other fans could see and use your works...

i just cancelled the fan-art section of my website and also the banners that i used for the rotating title...
instead i postet a link to the blue-sun-room


but i want to try to explain

i build this side for the german speaking browncoats; yes i know there are not so many yet - but there
will be, when the show will finaly be aired in germany...

i'm happy about every visitor and i never wandet to make anybody angry, cause i built the site for the fans
and not against them.

to keep my visitors happy i'm allways searching the web for news and interessting things around firefly...
... and as you know www.fireflyfans.net is one of the best places to find these things...

so i found your fantastic fan-arts and thought, it should not be a problem to copy them to make my site
look better.

i know, you spent alot of time to creat these famous pics... i know that, cause i spent alot of time too
by building the website...


i hope, you accept my apology

(and sorry for my bad english...)


keep flying

hardy



~~~~~



Hi Hardy,

I was just going to write you a small note, but I have been busy. To tell you the truth, I think my temper got the better of me. I don't think the art section that you put up was bad, in general. I do think that you should have placed a caption or statement, stating that most of the work came from people/artists, etc, that had posted on the BLueSunRoom in the fanart page.

I know some people don't mind, and you know I wouldn't have minded so much had you asked OR at least stated where the work was coming from. I like sharing my work, for other browncoats to enjoy. Keep the show alive, a tribute if you will. But you didn't and well, I was annoyed a bit. Not just for my work, but for the work of others as well. And because too much theft is going around in the fanart/graphic community in general. And it hit a little close to home.

Because as Zoid said in another post, if no credit is given people automatically think it's the work of those who placed it on the site.

You probably weren't aware that it was wrong to just take. And that's not wrong that you did. Not all people are informed on net manners. It was a simple misunderstanding, that I'm glad got cleared up. I had time to cool down a bit, and anaylze things. Either way, it's good that this matter was brought up here at FFF.net. I think it did good discussing it, and a lot of important notes were brought up by all here. And still are as I write this.

I would never demand that you take the section down, unless you never gave credit to where it was due. Not even then I would, to tell you the truth. That's all up to you. And you're doing a great job in keeping the show alive for other new comers to the show. I would not snub my nose at that, ever. I admire it, as any fellow fan would.

Truly am sorry for blowing this up, when it could've been resolved in a different way--albeit more calmer than my first post. I know I came across a little harsh, as is my tendency.

I accept your kind apology, and begones be begones.

Kind Regards,

Cassandra E





~~~~~~~~~~~
MAL: "I'll never understand rich folk. All that money, this is what they do with it."
INARA:"It's art."
Mal: "It's puppets."
Inara: "It's puppet art."--Heart of Gold, Transcript

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