GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

GRRRR! AAARRRGGGH!

POSTED BY: JENDANDY
UPDATED: Wednesday, September 8, 2004 11:21
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VIEWED: 1348
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Monday, September 6, 2004 9:42 PM

JENDANDY


Sorry but I knew that title would have gotten more reads than if I stuck to my original which was "Joss Whedon and Heartbreak".

Ya all know how Joss likes to play with the old heart strings a little...well, a lot actually. On Buffy every couple - Buffy/Angel, Xander/Cordy, Oz/Willow, Willow/Tara, Buffy/Riley, Xander/Anya - were destroyed in some way during the course of the show. Either by death or cheating or any number of Joss Whedon-y things. On Angel it was the same with Angel/Cordy, Wes/Fred, and so on...

But I've got one thing to say if Joss or any of his minions EVER d*ck around with Zoe and Wash -

I'M GONNA BE SO FREAKING PISSED!!

That is all...

-Sig Rebel-

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Monday, September 6, 2004 9:47 PM

MENELUIN


I agree, he'd better not mess with them! I have a feeling Simon/Kaylee will probably get together in the biblical sense (and I don't mean as Book might...) and that that will put their relationship in the position most likely to get messed with!

~~~~~~~~
http://www.thepaperbackwriter.com
AIM: KingArthursPiano
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Monday, September 6, 2004 10:16 PM

YOUNGSPIRIT


I remember one of the writers - Jane Espensen, I think, saying something about what would have happened to the Wash/Zoe r'ship had the series gone on, and she made the interesting comment "It might have gotten better, it might have gotten worse." Firefly being one of Joss' creations, I have a feeling that they might have split Zoe and Wash up, if only for a while. They really are two very different people, and as War Stories showed, they fight, they disagree... I think it might have been interesting for a r'ship so anchored - I mean, they're *married!* - so for them to even contemplate splitting up, let alone divorce would mean that *something* had to have happened.

I agree on the Simon/Kaylee score - those two need to (at least) kiss, and fast! But I also have hopes for Mal and Inara. Mal got close to admitting it in "Heart of Gold", so all we need is for Inara to come on board...

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Monday, September 6, 2004 11:56 PM

GROUNDED


This is one of Joss' few failing points. Couples never last and so it becomes very easy to predict what happens to them. I read a few messages posted after Smile Time giving Fred/Wesley a couple of episodes before disaster - turned out they only needed one...

Nobody likes predictability.

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Tuesday, September 7, 2004 12:08 AM

EMBERS


Quote:

Originally posted by JenDandy:
But I've got one thing to say if Joss or any of his minions EVER d*ck around with Zoe and Wash -



Joss once said that he had no interest in writing about the boring world of happy people...so when he makes a couple happy, and it appears they have resolved all their problems (like Willow & Tara in Seeing Red, or like Wesley & Fred when they FINALLY got together) then you gotta know that someone is marked for death (I don't see that as a predictable failing, I just see it as the writer having no use for a static relationship...he wants change, and conflict).

Regarding Zoe and Wash...well I could see that down the road, when Mal may like and depend on Wash more than he does now, it would be fun to have marital conflict to cause everyone on the crew to have to 'chose sides'...
but personally I think Joss might leave this relationship alone for a long long time:
Zoe is part of the core group, can't lose her.
And Wash is his own (Joss' own) alter-ego on the show, can't lose him....

Altho I guess it would be possible to keep them both and have them hate each other....
but let's hope not!

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Tuesday, September 7, 2004 1:42 AM

JENDANDY


Conflict between them is fine, sure, but if they decided to divorce or one of them died (WAAAAHHHH!) it would really break my heart - in a 'it's not real but I'm still very passionate about it' kind of way. Whatever Joss says, I personally, enjoy happiness in my characters as much as drama. I like watching them kiss or play around or laugh and have fun. Happiness doesn't always have to = boring.
I see the Zoe/Wash relationship as inspired. I'm 21 and married and (probably has to do with having a kid) even my husband and I, young as we are, don't have so much passion in our relationship. I love how they're still all over each other sometimes, marriage or no. It's very sweet.
I haven't been for a ship this much since The X-Files was actually good and Mulder and Scully weren't a couple yet (sh*t I was wrong about that one! They should have stayed friends!!) I want Zoe/Wash avitars! I want to read Zoe/Wash fanfiction! I'm even trying to write one of my own right now.

-Sig rebel-

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Tuesday, September 7, 2004 2:44 AM

DAIKATH


I personally think this is the one relationship Joss woudl't do anyrthing about. It just is another part of the frontier and how we deal with it shown in a relationship.

I also think both their characters are very deep partly from the fact that they are married.

Somehow it feels wrong to split them up, it messes with a certain vibe with all of the relations on the crew.

I cant really specifically precisely say what it is, but somehow this feels like the one relationship wich should't be messed with.

Now I think about it.. there was little buildup to them hooking up so the horror of them splitting up is less. Also the characters have been introduced as married and stuff... ah well, ezxuse my ranting.

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Tuesday, September 7, 2004 4:48 AM

DIETCOKE


I don't think you have to worry about Zoe and Wash. There WILL be conflict, I am sure of it and we saw some in War Stories. We know from Hearts of Gold that Zoe wants a baby and Wash doesn't right now. Another conflict.

So, I think there will be some struggles but I don't think they will break up. Now for the rest of the crew....we all know Joss can be grrr! aaaarrrgggh!

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Tuesday, September 7, 2004 7:56 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST


I'd have to agree with the comment about predictability and Joss' relationships within his shows.

I think for him now the challenge would be in writing a relationship that does work.... Let's face it making a relationship work is harder than giving up on it and I often feel like that's what he's done with certain ones in the past. In particular Fred and Gunn.

It was obvious he'd reached the same point with that relationship as he had with Buffy/Angel Xander/Cordelia and just decided to give up on it.

Wash and Zoe should stay together and the interesting thing would be to see how they keep that working. Otherwise it renders any relationship potentials on the show Mal/Inara Simon/Kaylee, Kaylee/Jayne(Please!) as just defunct and pointless.

TheSomnambulist




www.cirqus.com

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Tuesday, September 7, 2004 8:01 AM

DTT


I hate it when shows get soap opera syndrome and rip relationships apart just for the sake of doing it. When it's done too much, it's just a pathetic way of making up for a lack of ideas. That said, there's a reason I'm not out there trying to write for tv shows.

Oh, and before anybody kills me, I don't think Joss really has done this. After all, his shows were about people who had yet to settle into relationships. Establishing one is some kinda hard to do.

"You didn't have to wound that man."
"Yeah, I know. It was just funny."

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Tuesday, September 7, 2004 6:45 PM

SHEPHERDQ


I for one, like Sci Fi and Fantasy because it is NOT reality.. hmm wonder where I could find a reality show? I like Firefly and such BECAUSE things work, people ( adopted family ) care about each other and work hard to make things work. Does not mean it will be easy.. all the characters have problems, but the others make the effort to help. So nope.. I hate it when they kill em off or break em up... I see enough of that in reality... ok a few interesting bumps.. but lets not get radical.

The Journey is the worthier part.
www.southdownabbey.com

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Tuesday, September 7, 2004 7:52 PM

KELLAINA


Quote:

Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
I'd have to agree with the comment about predictability and Joss' relationships within his shows.

I think for him now the challenge would be in writing a relationship that does work.... Let's face it making a relationship work is harder than giving up on it and I often feel like that's what he's done with certain ones in the past. In particular Fred and Gunn.

It was obvious he'd reached the same point with that relationship as he had with Buffy/Angel Xander/Cordelia and just decided to give up on it.

Wash and Zoe should stay together and the interesting thing would be to see how they keep that working. Otherwise it renders any relationship potentials on the show Mal/Inara Simon/Kaylee, Kaylee/Jayne(Please!) as just defunct and pointless.



While I agree that Wash and Zoe should stay together since seeing them work out their conflicts within the confines of the ship is much more interesting than shipping one of them off, I disagree with the point that discontinuing the relationships on Buffy and Angel was a sign of giving up on writing something that works. Could Cordy and Xander really have lasted? They were never really a happy couple and after awhile the fact that there was always conflict between them got kinda annoying.

And I think it was Cordelia that said Angel and Buffy have the forbidden love of all time (or something like that).

As much as I want Wash/Zoe, Mal/Inara, and Kaylee/Simon to all be together and happy, quite frankly I'd find that sorta boring. And predictable.

As for Fred and Gunn, while I wasn't too thrilled with the breakup at the time, I did like that they did deal with the awkwardness afterward. And also that they didn't have to kill either one of them in order to break them up.

Anyway, that's just my 2 cents on the subject

If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. -"Angel"

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Tuesday, September 7, 2004 10:05 PM

NEROLI


Quote:

Originally posted by JenDandy:
I want to read Zoe/Wash fanfiction! I'm even trying to write one of my own right now.

-Sig rebel-



JenDandy, have you checked out Sarahetc's fic yet? She's done some great Wash/Zoe fics. Below is a link to her profile which has links to her fics.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/showprofile.asp?un=Sarahetc

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Tuesday, September 7, 2004 10:47 PM

JENDANDY


Hey, thanks for that Neroli. I'm already finished with 3 of 'em now.

Oh, and I've said it before but I'll say it again. Conflict and drama are good but happiness is not always boring. Joss, do what you will with 'em but keep those crazy kids together is all I ask.

-Sig Rebel-

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 9:43 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST


Quote:


While I agree that Wash and Zoe should stay together since seeing them work out their conflicts within the confines of the ship is much more interesting than shipping one of them off, I disagree with the point that discontinuing the relationships on Buffy and Angel was a sign of giving up on writing something that works. Could Cordy and Xander really have lasted? They were never really a happy couple and after awhile the fact that there was always conflict between them got kinda annoying.

And I think it was Cordelia that said Angel and Buffy have the forbidden love of all time (or something like that).

As much as I want Wash/Zoe, Mal/Inara, and Kaylee/Simon to all be together and happy, quite frankly I'd find that sorta boring. And predictable.

As for Fred and Gunn, while I wasn't too thrilled with the breakup at the time, I did like that they did deal with the awkwardness afterward. And also that they didn't have to kill either one of them in order to break them up.

Anyway, that's just my 2 cents on the subject

If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. -"Angel"



Hey Kellaina

Thanks for replying to what I said, sorry it's taken me so long but for some reason I've been unable to get the Firefly forum working today from work :(

Anyway I hear what you're saying. As regards Xander and Cordelia - that one for me was just not dealt with, either at the going out stage or after the break-up stage. And I think I remember Marti Noxon saying in one of the commentaries how she felt they'd not closed the book on that one yet.

Also given the fact that they went and paired Xander with Anya who ir remarkably similar to Cordelia as she was at the time of leaving Buffy, clearly highlights the need to see those two types of personalities in a relationship, and there again we really didn't have a resounding enough conclusion as to why that didn't work. Some character saying it won't work simply didn't cut it for me, after the hell that these two characters had gone through already to reach that stage. Surely they'd have had some belief in themselves in reserve no?

As for Buffy and Angel - why didn't this one work?!?! And why was it forbidden Love? Angels souls was restored more times than I can recall so.... That didn't make sense to me. If it was an issue that Angelus would take over they proved on many occaisions there were several ways of supressing that character, so Buffy and Angel could have been.

Although I must admit the interest was greater there knowing that it was doomed.

I highlighted Angel and Buffy as an extreme really but yes I think it works better that they didn't remain together, but Gunn and Fred?

Still foggy on that one....

If anyone has ever really been in love with someone and you're surrounded by that person day in day out, it is very difficult to just mosey around as though it's just an ordinary day.... It burns deeply knowing someone fails to love you back.

That was just swept away with. Gunn should have been a brocken man for a few episodes at least, and gone out and dusted a few vamps for laughs just to rid himself of the self loathing he would have had... Or is that just me :)

I mean I write these things and they probably seem critical, but not in the least, I thinks it is more a testament of great writing that it has me thinking to this extent.

I suppose the bottom line though is that it's no longer a surprise when a relationship on Joss' shows doesn't work, not because of bad writing but because of the clear signs he lays out to us as viewers... Being reasonably well versed in all his shows, I guess we'd spot a pattern and this is one of them in particular.

But y'know Joss is a genius and I'm in total admiration for his creativity, god knows I'd love to be able to write one page as well as he can three shows!

Anyway. good chatting about it.

Cheers
TheSomnambulist



www.cirqus.com

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 11:21 AM

DEBBIEBUK1


Much of Buffy and Angel is about the difficult stuff in life, and I think Firefly's the same in that. But the problems are different at each stage in life, once you get into a marriage, the difficult bit is staying married, so I think as many say above you can still have plenty of friction in the Zoe/ Wash relationship without completely ending it. It's more interesting to watch people keeping things together than them givingup. ISTR Joss saying maybe some of the Connor story in Angel would have come out differently if he'd had his own son first and the range of life stages various people in Firefly are at is much wider.

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