River and Simon ..Dark Edgey and should remain so by piratejenny

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

River and Simon ..Dark Edgey and should remain so

POSTED BY: PIRATEJENNY
UPDATED: Monday, August 23, 2004 16:53
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 4645
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Saturday, August 21, 2004 2:02 PM

If the show had of continued and Simone and Kaylee had of ended up somehow romantically involved..I probably would have stopped watching ..because its just not believeable to me..I just don't see Simon and Kaylee as anything more then friends ..to me it would seem out of charactor for Simon to go there with Kaylee

if anything I think the more intresting story would have been Simon's reluctance to get involved with anyone, I see River and Simon as having this Great Love..a brotherly sisterly love but a great love none the less..it has a dark edge to it thats both fascinating and intriguing..and thats what I would have liked to see explored..you can almost liken it to a car wreck..your compelled to look and you can't look away.. (when River and Simon are in a Scene its Captivating )there is almost something disturbing in it thats just so fascinating, its almost as if there is a hint of somethin more there without it being there..if Simon had of gotten involved with Kaylee or any woman..it would have taken that intrigue away...I think in the long run it would have been better to keep both Simon and River single and celibate..and that way in the backs of everyone's mind their would remain a lingering mystery as to why.. Joss and co wouldn't ever have to explain it..an that in and of itself would make it even more intriguing and Fascinating

River and Simon are the more Dark charactors of FireFly they are what gives the show its edge...and I always felt that those two charactors should remain so....somehow getting involved with Kaylee just doesn't fit..kaylee and Jayne they serve their purpose on the show ..but I think for the most part the lighter stuff should be left in their capable hands....

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Saturday, August 21, 2004 2:06 PM

FIREFLEW

Or Kaylee, Simon and River in some unusual dark edgey love triangle?

Then, on top of a rooftop in a storm, he has to decide who to shoot... Kaylee... or River?

Or not. I don't think even Joss's fairly twisted mind will extend to these depths.

Jayne: "Know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I beat you with till you understand who's in command."

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Saturday, August 21, 2004 2:14 PM

PIRATEJENNY

ummm I would never want it to go that far..but that would be something if it did!!lol..somehow I don't think prime time is ready for kind of story

at most I would say just keep the aura of dark..fascinating mystery

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Saturday, August 21, 2004 2:14 PM

SIMONF

The mighty Tim Minear was asked when the DVD was first released "Were Simon and River supposed to have that kind of tension?

To which he replied "Well... it's not like we didn't notice."

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Saturday, August 21, 2004 2:20 PM

SHINYSEVEN

Considering the deleted scene from "Our Mrs Reynolds," it's not like they didn't *film* it.

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Saturday, August 21, 2004 2:45 PM

PIRATEJENNY

Quote:
Originally posted by shinyseven:
Considering the deleted scene from "Our Mrs Reynolds," it's not like they didn't *film* it.

its interesting that you bring that up, I guess thats what I was wondering myself..was were they aware of that aspect..I guess I was wondering if they were aware of just how fascinating that whole aspect was...

from Our. Mrs Reynolds the deleted scene I guess the the answer is yes..wether or not they knew how fascinating it was..I don't know

I just wonder if they would have took the bull by the horns and went with it( in the sense that they would have kept that tension and aura)..if they had it certainly would have given the show a distinct flavor dontcha think

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Saturday, August 21, 2004 3:28 PM

CARDIE

I kept coming up with the adjective "incestuous," not "fascinating," in some of those dark edgy scenes.

Cardie

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Saturday, August 21, 2004 4:35 PM

AERONSTORM

Yes, but Simon seems horrified by the whole concept (OMR delete)

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Saturday, August 21, 2004 4:39 PM

LADYDISDAIN

Don't think I could disagree more, I'm afraid!

One of the reasons I fell so fast and hard for Firefly was that, about a week before it aired, I was loudly ranting about how SciFi shows (or most shows, for that matter) barely ever portray two things: Married couples, and brother-sister siblings. (The only married exception I can think of is O'Brien and Keiko, and how often did we actually see them?)

Yes, of course, there's chemistry and that 'aura' about Simon and River. But I think it would be cheap to go anywhere near what could be called an incestuous relationship. I do get awfully sick and tired of the notion that close relationships cannot exist without sexual overtones. We're talking about two people who understand each other perfectly -- because there has been no one else to understand them. They have a dependency that is not unheard of among siblings, though it is largely untouched by the realms of fiction. I would consider it selling the relationship short if the writing turned to that direction. It's fine for other characters to speculate, of course, because it adds to the situational oddity of it all.

I wonder what it is, that as a society/culture we cannot accept the idea that there is love as powerful as romantic/sexual love, without ever 'going there'.

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Saturday, August 21, 2004 7:03 PM

PIRATEJENNY

Quote:
I wonder what it is, that as a society/culture we cannot accept the idea that there is love as powerful as romantic/sexual love, without ever 'going there'.

thats what I meant.....its that whole power love without the sexuallove .thats the kind of love that I believe that River Simon have..a great pure an innocent love soulmates...in noway would I want them to take it to a sexual direction..not that they would...and that too is part of whats so facinating about Riverand Simon is that they do understand eachother so perfectly...

but you bring up a very good point..I would have loved to see River and Simon as this great brother sister couple thats why I would have liked their relationship explored more on the show

can a great love exist without sex being involved..of course it can, and it does..

but we do live in a society where we are raised to act and behave a certain way..so when people step out of those boundaries even just a little..eyebrows will raise..and speculations will be thrown around as to the nature of that behavior..thats human nature, and stepping outside those boundaries even just a little..to provoke ones mind to speculate and wonder is facinating

Quote:
It's fine for other characters to speculate, of course, because it adds to the situational oddity of it all.

yes exactly!!
whatever Simon and River have I find it fascinating!! the oddity of it all Fascinating!!

you see there is something so beautiful and pure about River and Simon's interaction..but because of that tension that aura and mystery that surrounds them, the fact that one can take that and speculate on it in such a dark way is fascinating..they are odd not average and it makes them intriguing!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

on a side note Joss and Tim are genuis truly genuis they stretched the comfort zone not enough to make anyone uncomfortable but just enough to make them go hmmmm to speculate and to wonder..the imagination is allowed to roam wild and free and come up with whatever it wants thats the aura...and thats a good thing

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Saturday, August 21, 2004 7:43 PM

PURPLEBELLY

Are River and Simon clones of Regan and Gabriel?
Have marriages become trans-generational in the twenty-sixth century?
Are Simon and River betrothed?

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Saturday, August 21, 2004 9:47 PM

PIRATEJENNY

Wow clones of Regan and Gabriel, transgenerational marriage and the the question of Simon and Rivers betrothal...

can you elaborate espeically on the transenerational marriage thing.. I really want to hear this theory...

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Saturday, August 21, 2004 10:29 PM

PURPLEBELLY

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
... I really want to hear this theory...

If there one thing I can't resist, its temptation

There's a lot of if coming off this plan Let's say person A marries person B. Person A is cloned to person a. Person B is cloned to person b. Persons a and b are brought up in the family of persons A and B as siblings. Persons a and b marry as adults, but may be betrothed at a much earlier age. In some cultures this arrangement may be seen as beneficial as not diluting of family wealth, but individuals will still be sure that their genes endure for another generation.

Now it gets more if-y. Since the relationship between our Aa's and Bb's is contractual rather than biological, in the sense that as we have it now offspring are a combination of parental genes, it may be thought necessary to fortify the emotional bond between partners in some other way, perhaps from an early age. So the bond between River and Simon would be stronger than that we would understand between siblings and stronger than that we would understand between sexual partners.

Sorry this is so long, but you did ask ...

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Saturday, August 21, 2004 11:56 PM

I, for one, have never seen the River/Simon relationship as anything but sister/brother. Nothing sexual at all (well, there was that weird thing with River in Our Mrs Reynolds that never got aired, but I always put that down to her being a little craaaazy...).

JK

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Sunday, August 22, 2004 3:39 AM

CHRONICTHEHEDGEHOG

I disagree completely. A Simon/Kaylee relationship would have been very interesting and opens up a world of storyline potential. Kaylee being on the outside of the Simon/River bond, Simon's mixed loyalties and feelings of betrayal... Would have made the River/Simon relationship better not worse... (IMO)

check out my WIP firefly roleplay system at www.estador.co.uk/firefly

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Sunday, August 22, 2004 3:50 PM

PIRATEJENNY

hey Purplebelly

that was a very intresting theory, and it made a certain amount of sense to..I love hearing theory's and speculation..it makes for more interesting thought provocking posting..and its good to see that you aren't afraid to use your imagination and go there!!

kudos

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Sunday, August 22, 2004 4:26 PM

PIRATEJENNY

Quote:
Originally posted by JK:
I, for one, have never seen the River/Simon relationship as anything but sister/brother. Nothing sexual at all (well, there was that weird thing with River in Our Mrs Reynolds that never got aired, but I always put that down to her being a little craaaazy...).

JK

well maybe you haven't seen anything sexual in River and Simon's interation..but I can tell you right now as I'm sure your well aware of ..their are many people out there who do...but thats whats so great about it..when it comes to River and Simon and the nature of their relationship..people are allowed to think what they want thats the beauty of it the oddity of it and the intrigue of it

Now I believe that River and Simon's relationship and love for eachother is pure and great soulmates..but I can certainly understand how others can see incesteous overtones as one poster put it..I can certainly understand it...

I like to write and so when I get interested in characters..i really get interested in them and come up with all kinds of scenarios..

I see River and Simon as both genius as outsiders in a way..I would think them being so smart that as children they didn't fit in well with their own peer groups..and so by choice spent their time together where they felt safe and comfortable...after all River was correcting Simon's spelling at the age of 3..so I doubt seriously if River felt comfortable or accepted by others her own age is it any wonder she wanted to attend the alliance ran school where she probably felt she could be challenged...Simon maybe not as smart as River but a genius none the less in his own right was probably resented and treated as an outsider by his own peers too.

If Gabriel and Regan wasn't the most affectionate parents River and Simon probably sought that parental affection out amongst eachother..in some ways I can even see Gabriel and Regan being shut out by River and Simon themselves ..not intentionally....but for the fact that River and Simon understand eachother and accept eachother so perfectly..their bond being so strong.

by spending all of their time together and both being of the opposite sex and probably living a somewhat sheltered life their interactions probably did take on some innocent flirteous qualites

Simon oviously adores River..he lights up when talking about her..to him she is probably the epitomy of what his ideal woman should be...she is great if not perfect at everything she does be it dancing or whatever..what average woman could compete with his living breathing ideal, I don't think grappling with River ever entered his mind.. ( lol at least not until River brought it up)..but any woman who he embarks on a relationship would have to compete and live up to River his ideal..and as far as I can see no average woman can...

and for River Simon is also her ideal, no one understands her or protects her the way that Simon does no one gets her the way that he does or loves her the way that he does..he is the epitomy of her ideal..she would probably seek out these same qualities in a mate

all that River and Simon know is that they love eachother, and they express that love in everything that they do...they don't know anyother way to be

to an outsider looking in , one might wonder about them..but to River and Simon they are only being themselves...they are only being the way they know how to be

I don't believe at all that River is crazy..she's just not normal or average..her mind doesn't process things the way an average mind would...even before the alliance got a hold of her the evolution seemed to have evolved in her...she's genuis and probably process and knows and understands things in a way that our average minds can't because it hasn't evolved that far yet!!

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Sunday, August 22, 2004 4:43 PM

PIRATEJENNY

Quote:
Originally posted by chronicthehedgehog:
I disagree completely. A Simon/Kaylee relationship would have been very interesting and opens up a world of storyline potential. Kaylee being on the outside of the Simon/River bond, Simon's mixed loyalties and feelings of betrayal... Would have made the River/Simon relationship better not worse... (IMO)

here is where we would have to agree to disagree, if Simon and Kaylee had an intimate reltionship it would be intresting for all of two seconds if that..the story and scenario that you bring up could just as easily be done without them starting a relationship the unrequited love on Kaylee's part..it could be just her wanting one and Simon reluctant and feeling all of those things without ever going there

Kaylee already is the outsider of River/Simon relationship...but I think it would be a disaster for Simon to get involved with Kaylee

I can't deny that kaylee annoys me.. not because I don't like her..because I do like her..but I see her charactor as having the potential to take away Simon's intrigue his oddity his mystery..and I would never want that to happen..what little gratifcation someone would get from the Kaylee Simon relationship...in the long run wouldn't be worth it...there is only so far you could go with them before it got real stale and then Simon would come out of it less then what he went in

Keep Simon Dark Edgey and intriguing ..keep him facinating!!

P-jenny

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Sunday, August 22, 2004 7:29 PM

LUNAKITTY

Well said, LadyDisdain!

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
River: Is it time to go to sleep again?
Simon: No, mei-mei, it's time to wake up.

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Monday, August 23, 2004 6:13 AM

FEMALEJAYNE

Did you wacth the deleted senes? One of them was River telling Book (after she shoved a pillow up her shirt) that he had to marry her and Simon because she was in the family way. Simon took great offense to this. There was arguing, and River asked Simon if he loved her and if he did why couldn't they be married. (simon says he loves her but brothers and sisters don't get married, unless your on a bad planet)

With Hope because love is nothing without hope.

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Monday, August 23, 2004 3:53 PM

PIRATEJENNY

Quote:
Did you watch the deleted senes?

yes I watched the deleted scenes and I thought it was hilarious

you say Simon was offended..but how do we know that for sure..after all River did say we have something to tell you(book)..not I

I don't think the thought ever entered Simon's mind ..but from the way it was presented how do we really know..

did you read my previous post...?

its not really a sexual issue.. and I'm not proposing a marriage between Simon and River..I think I've done a pretty good job on explaining what I think about Simon and River's relationship

The interesting thing I find about Simon and River's relationship..is that because there is this aura this oddity..this mystery about them that people and viewers are allowed to think what they want about them..their minds are allowed to speculate and wonder about them in any context or fashion that they want..its part of what makes them facinating, they've been written just outside the boundaries..and so they aren't bound to any one mindset..they don't fit into some neat little package...its great

some people might see some incestuous over tones to their relationship and thats fine..some people may see a great and pure love and thats fine too..some people may see something else all together..thats the beauty of what Joss and Tim have done with these charactors..its what makes them fascinating

Joss and Tim have stretched our comfort zone just enough to make us wonder and speculate..to use our imaginations in any directions we want and I think its wonderful

could the nature of River and Simon's relationship be more then brotherly sisterly love even if just on an unconcious level...who knows...

Could their relationship just be a great and strong loving brotherly sisterly bond...who knows

Could their relationship be something else altogether ..who knows

there are no right or wrong thoughts or answers...their are no answers..what we have is an aura an air of mystery and oddity and its facinating!!

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Monday, August 23, 2004 4:21 PM

GWENHARKER

I can see where you're coming from, but I have to disagree.

My parents aren't always there, and before my older brother joined the marines, we had a very close relationship where we depended on each other for help. We care very deeply about one another, and we can both relate to the Simon/River and their relationship.

That aside, I have to say, I see nothing sexual between the two of them. I take the OMR scene as River (who understands, but doesn't comprehend) being crazy. She was getting her head cut into at the time when girls are starting to really discover the opposite sex.

River's only male interaction (in the love sense) was by her older brother, and they obviously spent alot of time together as younger children. River understands that her and her brother love one another, and to her, with what she knew at 14 about such things, only seems to understand that when your in love, you get married. Am I making sense? River doesn't get that you don't marry your sibling.

I also think that Simon, who was probably... I would like to say maybe 8 when River was born, was told by his parents 'This is your baby sister and she will look up to you. Take care of her' and I think he has taken that very seriously. Their parents obviously aren't around much, and Simon took great pains to make sure he gave his sister a role model.

Now, I would've loved to see Simon/Kaylee. Does Simon not deserve any happiness in the romantic sense? We already see him driving himself crazy trying to fix River. But this is all my opinion and I hope it all made sense.

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Monday, August 23, 2004 4:53 PM

PIRATEJENNY

Quote:
Originally posted by GwenHarker:
I can see where you're coming from, but I have to disagree. .

well its refreshing that you can see where I'm coming from!!lol..and you have everyright to disagree..after all there are no right or wrong thoughts or answers..River and Simon are outside the box...of lets call it conventionality so whatever one wants to think about them is fine..
now isn't that really refreshing!!

Quote:
My parents aren't always there, and before my older brother joined the marines, we had a very close relationship where we depended on each other for help. We care very deeply about one another, and we can both relate to the Simon/River and their relationship..

most people have close bonds with their siblings I think that is something we can all relate too, but as your aware of I'm sure that some people see more in the River Simon relationship..so we can't ignore that element..it does exist and it should be addressed..because its part of the charators

Quote:
That aside, I have to say, I see nothing sexual between the two of them. I take the OMR scene as River (who understands, but doesn't comprehend) being crazy. She was getting her head cut into at the time when girls are starting to really discover the opposite sex.

At 1rst I was thinking that River was crazy too , but after watching it for the upteenth time I came to a diffrent conclusion...I think its too easy to dimiss River as being crazy..look at how she handled the whole thing with Jubal Early on the ship..the plan that she came up with without using any weapons to get rid of him..Crazy isn't exactly the word I would use to describe her...yes her brain was cut into..but River is a genius..and Simon himself said that she feels everything...most of the things River says..does have meaning....or come to pass in some way..as they say she knows things..it could be that her mind is comprehending and processing information in a way that the average common mind can't comprehend ..but that doesn't make her crazy..

Quote:
River's only male interaction (in the love sense) was by her older brother, and they obviously spent alot of time together as younger children. River understands that her and her brother love one another, and to her, with what she knew at 14 about such things, only seems to understand that when your in love, you get married. Am I making sense? River doesn't get that you don't marry your sibling..

but there is no way of knowing that ..it could be that your right ..but again thats the beauty of it..we aren't sure of anything when it comes to River and Simon and thats the beauty and intrigue of it.. for all we know River could be madly in love with Simon ..Simon could be madly in love with River..they could both be madly in love witheachother in ways that we don't understand..perhaps they have a great love without any sexual feeling whatsoever.. perhaps they have a love that the average common human doesn't fully understand...we don't know about any of these things we can only wonder and speculate on them..but again that is what makes them fascinating

Quote:
I also think that Simon, who was probably... I would like to say maybe 8 when River was born, was told by his parents 'This is your baby sister and she will look up to you. Take care of her' and I think he has taken that very seriously. Their parents obviously aren't around much, and Simon took great pains to make sure he gave his sister a role model..

Quote:
Now, I would've loved to see Simon/Kaylee. Does Simon not deserve any happiness in the romantic sense? We already see him driving himself crazy trying to fix River. But this is all my opinion and I hope it all made sense.

who is to say that Kaylee would make Simon happy, I'm not saying that she wouldn't but how do we know..and would kaylee make Simon happy..and is happy what we really want to see anywho!! If River is Simons 1rst priority would it even be fair to Kaylee ...so far what we've seen is him sort of backing away from her obvious advances, Simon said it himself in the message that every woman on the ship was either married , professional or blood related to him..its not like he has much of a choice how fair is that to Simon should he have to settle for her because she is his only option!!..sex aside how do we know that Simon doesn't need more then what Kaylee could offer..I like kaylee..but she's just a little to ordinary for Simon its my opinion..if they could have a relationship where Simon was allowed to keep that aura and air of mystery and oddity an intrigue about him..I would be all for it..but he wouldn't be able to.... and that is to great a loss..for such a small trite payoff..I like to look at the bigger picture to get involved with kaylee would be to obvious to common..not interesting enough...the show ( movie aside and hoping they bring back the series at some later date) already has one opposites attract couple in Zoey and Wash..they don't need two IMO!!

I personally would hope that they would focus on the Simon River connection ..in whatever context they wished..its uncoventional ..its interesting..its refreshing and new..again IMO

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

on a side note, I guess it depends on what you want to see, one poster brought up Kaylee and Simon and the Cinderella factor being at work..their are plenty of people who love the cinderella factor..the dashing young man sweeps the pretty girl off her feet..but they seldom live happily everafter do they..and if they did everyone would be bored stiff..but not only that as tried and true as it maybe its also as predictable as you can get and its been done to death...

why not break new ground and do something with the Wicked Stepmother and the Ugly sisters..what about them that wouldn't their story be alot more interesting then Cinderella's tired old story!! dontcha think!!lol

Why go for the predictable ..tired same ole same ole when you can go from something new and refreshing and exciting something thats a little daring a little diffrent!! something a little outside the box..something that will have people fascinated

A little oddity or weirdnes can be so intriguing..after all I did love Twin Peaks..that show had an oddity about it..and it was intriguing!!

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