GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Two Nitpicks

POSTED BY: BLEYDDYN
UPDATED: Tuesday, June 8, 2004 13:19
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Monday, June 7, 2004 8:03 AM

BLEYDDYN


Lesser: I think it's in commentary on one of the episodes, someone (possibly Tim Minear) says that the necklace that Zoe wears is a symbol of her relationship with Wash. But in at least one of the flashbacks in Out of Gas she is still wearing it, even though she has just met Wash and even says she just doesn't like him.

Not-so-lesser: Serenity seems to have a lot of extra power and a fair amount of internal space, and fresh foods seem to hold a lot of value for the crew, so why don't they have a small hydroponics setup? I doubt they'd want to turn too much of their cargo space over to it but with the right equipment (high intensity lamps, sensors for nutrient balancing) you can actually grow a lot of food in a small space. It shouldn't be too expensive to get started; lights and nutrient handling being the biggest expenses, the rest can be cheap plumbing. Ongoing expenses should be negligible if they recycle, errr, nutrients, otherwise they would need to buy fertilizer every now and then.

--Bleyddyn

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Monday, June 7, 2004 8:32 AM

STATIC


The necklace thingy . . .yeah, lots of us caught that also. I think it's been mentioned/discussed here before.

A thought on your hydroponics thing. . .

I honestly think it's purely a matter of literary device here. . .it adds to storytelling potential to make fresh foods a luxury. JW seems to have a really good knack for figuring out exactly how much 'tech' stuff his audience will settle for in exchange for character driven plot stuff.

Just my humble opinion.

==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

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Monday, June 7, 2004 8:46 AM

SHINYSEVEN


I've thought that myself about the hydroponics (so I agree that it's a good point!) but then on the other hand, when you think about that bunch, they could kill houseplants.

Actually, when it comes to food my nitpick is that of all the cargos to get stuck with in Serenity, food is about the least problematic. Unlike bobble-head dolls, they could perfectly well use it themselves; if the ship got searched they wouldn't be in any more trouble than they were already; and there's a pretty good chance they could use some of it later on as barter for other things they needed.

Sadistic crap legitimized by florid prose

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Monday, June 7, 2004 10:24 AM

BLEYDDYN


Quote:

Originally posted by Static:
I honestly think it's purely a matter of literary device here. . .



True, very true. Having a small garden on Serenity would probably not provide much story fodder (just real fodder for the crew :). It just seems jarring to me because I can't see any in-story reason why they (the characters) wouldn't have done it.

And I'm biased because I did a bit of research on the subject when the Mars Society was first looking at adding a green house to their Mars Habs.

--Bleyddyn

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Monday, June 7, 2004 10:33 AM

GHOULMAN


Oh my... I think the seeds would be owned by Blue Sun. Looking for a Monsanto metaphor here.

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Monday, June 7, 2004 10:54 AM

SHINYSEVEN


About the necklace...sorry if it's been done to death. Naturally it's probably just a continuity error, but it could be that if necklace=wedding ring, Zoe bought herself one to minimize the number of nitwits whose asses she has to kick each time she wants to have a nice quiet cold beer in a bar. (Unless, of course, she feels like starting a brawl.) And then she simply replaced it with a real one later.

Sadistic crap legitimized by florid prose

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Monday, June 7, 2004 11:36 AM

SOUPCATCHER


I've wondered a bit on the issue of hydroponics myself but this is more a musing on food in general. From the pilot episode we learn that Alliance foodstuffs are very efficient (i can't remember the exact numbers but one bar could feed a family for a while - Mal talking to Patience). Not sure if there is anything to compete with the Alliance (or Blue Sun and the other corporations - which is probably the same thing) in regards to this. Even the canned food that is on Serenity appears to be from Blue Sun (my intuition based on River taking off the labels). It would make sense that all trade in packaged food was dominated by the Alliance since it would probably take a sizable tech investment to re-create those foodstuffs and that an independant who was dealing in Alliance foodstuffs would warrant a bulletin on the Cortex.

On a related note, how able are the outlying planets to produce all their food? You can terraform a planet to make it habitable but I'm not sure how much water you can add to an environment so maybe some of the worlds couldn't grow their own food as easily as others (fun to speculate on the parameters of terraforming). The settler ship from Bushwhacked did have enough to get a colony started but I can't remember if they specifically mentioned seeds. Transporting those cows was probably a really dangerous assignment for our BDH's - hard to hide if caught and you can bet that the Alliance doesn't want colonists/customers getting too self sufficient. The local law didn't seem to care too much about the cows, more about the previous crimes of the men who were buying them - which would fit in with the Alliance and local law enforcement having different priorities.

Just my rambling thoughts on the subject. I wouldn't be surprised if you could make a benefit/cost argument that canned foods was a better choice for a small crew than growing your own. Or maybe the position of cook that Mal talked about filling and never did would have included more than just food preparation.

I shaved off my beard for you, devil woman!

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Monday, June 7, 2004 11:51 AM

XARR


The crew just don't seem the farmin' type to me. I doubt most of 'em couldn't even pronounce 'hydroponics'.

On the other hand... for some reason I can totally see Jayne taking loving care of a tiny tomato plant. I can see him talking to it while spritzing it with a little water bottle.

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Monday, June 7, 2004 12:09 PM

BLEYDDYN


Quote:

Originally posted by Xarr:
The crew just don't seem the farmin' type to me.



Except for Book, who mentions he did farming at the abbey, you are probably right. Actually, didn't Mal mention he grew up on a ranch (Our Mrs. Reynolds)? Could have been a cattle ranch, but they would probably have had a garden of some kind.

On the other hand, there are quite a few food crops that are really easy to grow. Lettuce, strawberries and raspberries, from personal experience, although I've only played around with growing strawberries hydroponically.

I also know there have been quite a few studies about the beneficial psychological effects of green growing things when you spend a lot of time in an artificial environment (subs, office buildings, spaceships).

--Bleyddyn

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Monday, June 7, 2004 2:51 PM

ZOID



Browncoats:

Great thread, Bleyddynn! Never really thought about it before, but since I think BlueSun is to Alliance as TRW+Big Oil+JW Reynolds+Microsoft+WalMart is to US Govt, I've been giving it some thought.

Did anyone know tobacco comes from seeds? Has anyone ever seen a seed in their tobacco products? Know why? The Tobacco Cartel don't want their addicts growing their own. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if it's not actually against the law to possess tobacco seeds.

On a related note, this is the sole reason I've always supported the legalization of marijuana. Legalize it, turn it over to the Tobacco Companies (whereupon they remove all the seeds, and there's no 'street market'), illegalize tobacco, make it illegal to sell to marijuana to minors, tax the crap out of it and sell it for $5 for a pkg of 5 cigarettes. Drug dealers go out of business. Public coffers are full. Medical care and insurance systems stabilize because lots less people are dying of cancer (they're still dying, just of less expensive causes, like old age and heart disease).

Everything's fixed all at once. (As if...)

Still, projecting that business model, might it be possible that Alliance/BlueSun control seeds by selling seedless watermelons, tomatoes, cucumbers, beef, etc? (Get it? 'Seedless beef': they'll sell you a herd, but not an un-neutered herd)...

Here's the script segment from 'Bushwhacked'. Please note that these were rich settlers; Mal comments that the stores aboard the ship were worth "a fortune":

MAL
Here. Genseed, protein, crop supplements.
Everything a growing family needs to make
a fresh start on a new world.
ZOE
Hard subsidies for fourteen-plus families.
That's...

MAL
About a fortune. Forget the rest, we just
take this stuff. We're going to need a
hand hauling it out of here. (END Snippet)

So what is "genseed"? Genetically-engineered? Yeah, so? All the crops we grow in America these days are genetically-engineered. Unless maybe the designers have also made the produce reproductively sterile? Hmmm, I dunno.

My wife grows strawberries alongside our house (her name is Kayley, BTW). Thing with strawberries is, once you get 'em growing, just try stopping 'em. Even accounting for attrition by avifauna (um, that's zoidspeak for 'birds eat them'), we've got plenty for our needs and still have to give excess fruit to friends, family, neighbors, strangers walking down the street... well, you get the idea. All one needs is a scion -- say, an arm's length of 'runner' vine -- and the thing'll take over your garden (hell, your whole neighborhood) within two years, if you're not vigiliant with 'hatchet, axe and saw' (extra credit for anyone naming that song).

Point is, how come Kaylee (Firefly's, not mine) acts like a single strawberry is the Holy Grail? (and vibrating, at that) I mean, I believe Joss never does anything casually. He's got a reason for all this stuff. You think, "Ah-hah! I caught him in a mistake!", and then he comes back and flogs you with it.

One last thing to keep you thinking on this. In the opening scene of 'Serenity, Part I', we see our daring swashbucklers, our brigands, our pirates, our evil-doing highwaymen picking the bones of a derelict ship. The Cruiser Captain is about to sic his fighters on our "scavengers", before the wily ploy of a transmitter-laden BlueSun coffee can (yes, watch it again, it says 'BlueSun' right on the side, with 'Cry-Baby' taped onto it) decoys them away, letting our blood-thirsty cutthroats make good their escape.

Now skip all the intervening 1 hour and 30-some minutes, to the meeting on Whitefall. What have they so cunningly stolen from under the very noses of the Alliance?

FOOD.

Same thing in 'Bushwhacked'. The Cruiser Captain lets our desperados go, but keeps their swag. What was it? Family heirloom china and silver? Great-Great-Great-Grandma's platinum wedding ring?

FOOD.

Gotta give 'em credit, Alliance/BlueSun know the way to their subjects' hearts: through their stomachs.

And give Joss credit, too. If he does it once, it might be a mistake. If he does it twice, or continually, I'm thinkin' he's loading up a big haymaker he's getting ready to land, once you're properly distracted by the little jabs.


Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
How pissed do you think the recovery crew from that scene in 'Serenity Pt. 1' were, when they rushed out to the rescue of a coffee can with 'Cry-Baby' written on athletic tape stuck to it?
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

Only 318 days, 4 hours, 15 minutes, and 34 seconds left until The BDM!

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Monday, June 7, 2004 3:32 PM

DARKJESTER


Quote:

'hatchet, axe and saw' (extra credit for anyone naming that song).


That's OK Zoid, I read my copy of "The National Midnight Star" every day at work. I'll let someone else answer the question directly. Exit Stage Left......



MAL "You only gotta scare him."
JAYNE "Pain is scary..."

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Monday, June 7, 2004 3:45 PM

BIKISDAD


Zoid,

Great post. Oh, by the way, the song is "The Trees" by Rush. Where's my ex-cred? Gimme. Gimme. Gimme. Woo-Hoo!

Sorry - got a little carried away there.

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

EDIT: Aw, shucks. DarkJester beat me to it. Good way to reference it without giving it away. I should have done something like that rather than just blurting it out. Sorry.

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Monday, June 7, 2004 3:51 PM

ZOID



DarkJester wrote:
Quote:

That's OK Zoid, I read my copy of "The National Midnight Star" every day at work. I'll let someone else answer the question directly. Exit Stage Left......

Good eye. So, the extra points, plus extra extra points for not naming the song. You must be in my age demographic, so I'll throw in a bottle of Geritol, too. I imagine all the young 'uns, thinking themselves wicked crafty... and then thinking, it's a song about Warcraft cheats?

All the world’s indeed a stage and we are merely players...


Respectfully,

zoid

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Monday, June 7, 2004 3:55 PM

BIKISDAD


...performers and portrayers...

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Monday, June 7, 2004 4:03 PM

ZOID



bikisdad wrote:
Quote:

Zoid,

Great post. Oh, by the way, the song is "The Trees" by Rush. Where's my ex-cred? Gimme. Gimme. Gimme. Woo-Hoo!

Sorry - got a little carried away there.

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

EDIT: Aw, shucks. DarkJester beat me to it. Good way to reference it without giving it away. I should have done something like that rather than just blurting it out. Sorry.


Dude, no need to be so harsh on yerself. Hell, yeah, you get the extra credits; but DarkJester does gets the style points. As far as I'm concerned, anybody who picks up on an obscure reference from a cerebral, if somewhat elfin rock band from the 'glory days' (no extra credit for that one) is alright in my book...


Respectfully,

zoid

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Monday, June 7, 2004 4:56 PM

ANNIK


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:

Browncoats:

Great thread, Bleyddynn! Never really thought about it before, but since I think BlueSun is to Alliance as TRW+Big Oil+JW Reynolds+Microsoft+WalMart is to US Govt, I've been giving it some thought.

Did anyone know tobacco comes from seeds? Has anyone ever seen a seed in their tobacco products? Know why? The Tobacco Cartel don't want their addicts growing their own. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if it's not actually against the law to possess tobacco seeds.
(snipped)



I heard a great radio documentary on this very topic a few months ago on CBC Radio One. Yes, apparently it is illegal in most places to grow-your-own tobacco. The documentary focused on Ontario farmers, Australian farmers, and some US farmers who went ahead and grew/sold their own anyhow.

Cheers,
Annik
... my sister's a ship. We had a complicated childhood.

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Monday, June 7, 2004 4:59 PM

ANNIK


Quote:

Originally posted by Bleyddyn:
(snipped)
Not-so-lesser: Serenity seems to have a lot of extra power and a fair amount of internal space, and fresh foods seem to hold a lot of value for the crew, so why don't they have a small hydroponics setup? I doubt they'd want to turn too much of their cargo space over to it but with the right equipment (high intensity lamps, sensors for nutrient balancing) you can actually grow a lot of food in a small space. It shouldn't be too expensive to get started; lights and nutrient handling being the biggest expenses, the rest can be cheap plumbing. Ongoing expenses should be negligible if they recycle, errr, nutrients, otherwise they would need to buy fertilizer every now and then.

--Bleyddyn



I agree ... I was wondering about this, too ... especially since they so easily gained some cattle, errr, nutrients. :-)

Tho' I also agree with others here that farming probably isn't something anyone on the crew is too good at ... and yeah, I can see Jayne with the tomato plant! My own husband came up as Jayne on the personality test, and he rescued a voluntary tomato plant from our compost heap last autumn ... it's just produced four tomatoes this month after continuing to grow throughout the winter!

Good thread.

Cheers,
Annik
... my sister's a ship. We had a complicated childhood.

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 5:01 AM

TJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:

Browncoats:

Great thread, Bleyddynn! Never really thought about it before, but since I think BlueSun is to Alliance as TRW+Big Oil+JW Reynolds+Microsoft+WalMart is to US Govt, I've been giving it some thought.

/BDid anyone know tobacco comes from seeds? Has anyone ever seen a seed in their tobacco products? Know why? The Tobacco Cartel don't want their addicts growing their own. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if it's not actually against the law to possess tobacco seeds.?Quote

On a related note, this is the sole reason I've always supported the legalization of marijuana. Legalize it, turn it over to the Tobacco Companies (whereupon they remove all the seeds, and there's no 'street market'), illegalize tobacco, make it illegal to sell to marijuana to minors, tax the crap out of it and sell it for $5 for a pkg of 5 cigarettes. Drug dealers go out of business. Public coffers are full. Medical care and insurance systems stabilize because lots less people are dying of cancer (they're still dying, just of less expensive causes, like old age and heart disease).

Everything's fixed all at once. (As if...)

Still, projecting that business model, might it be possible that Alliance/BlueSun control seeds by selling seedless watermelons, tomatoes, cucumbers, beef, etc? (Get it? 'Seedless beef': they'll sell you a herd, but not an un-neutered herd)...

Here's the script segment from 'Bushwhacked'. Please note that these were rich settlers; Mal comments that the stores aboard the ship were worth "a fortune":

MAL
Here. Genseed, protein, crop supplements.
Everything a growing family needs to make
a fresh start on a new world.
ZOE
Hard subsidies for fourteen-plus families.
That's...

MAL
About a fortune. Forget the rest, we just
take this stuff. We're going to need a
hand hauling it out of here. (END Snippet)

So what is "genseed"? Genetically-engineered? Yeah, so? All the crops we grow in America these days are genetically-engineered. Unless maybe the designers have also made the produce reproductively sterile? Hmmm, I dunno.

My wife grows strawberries alongside our house (her name is Kayley, BTW). Thing with strawberries is, once you get 'em growing, just try stopping 'em. Even accounting for attrition by avifauna (um, that's zoidspeak for 'birds eat them'), we've got plenty for our needs and still have to give excess fruit to friends, family, neighbors, strangers walking down the street... well, you get the idea. All one needs is a scion -- say, an arm's length of 'runner' vine -- and the thing'll take over your garden (hell, your whole neighborhood) within two years, if you're not vigiliant with 'hatchet, axe and saw' (extra credit for anyone naming that song).

Point is, how come Kaylee (Firefly's, not mine) acts like a single strawberry is the Holy Grail? (and vibrating, at that) I mean, I believe Joss never does anything casually. He's got a reason for all this stuff. You think, "Ah-hah! I caught him in a mistake!", and then he comes back and flogs you with it.

One last thing to keep you thinking on this. In the opening scene of 'Serenity, Part I', we see our daring swashbucklers, our brigands, our pirates, our evil-doing highwaymen picking the bones of a derelict ship. The Cruiser Captain is about to sic his fighters on our "scavengers", before the wily ploy of a transmitter-laden BlueSun coffee can (yes, watch it again, it says 'BlueSun' right on the side, with 'Cry-Baby' taped onto it) decoys them away, letting our blood-thirsty cutthroats make good their escape.

Now skip all the intervening 1 hour and 30-some minutes, to the meeting on Whitefall. What have they so cunningly stolen from under the very noses of the Alliance?

FOOD.

Same thing in 'Bushwhacked'. The Cruiser Captain lets our desperados go, but keeps their swag. What was it? Family heirloom china and silver? Great-Great-Great-Grandma's platinum wedding ring?

FOOD.

Gotta give 'em credit, Alliance/BlueSun know the way to their subjects' hearts: through their stomachs.

And give Joss credit, too. If he does it once, it might be a mistake. If he does it twice, or continually, I'm thinkin' he's loading up a big haymaker he's getting ready to land, once you're properly distracted by the little jabs.


Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
How pissed do you think the recovery crew from that scene in 'Serenity Pt. 1' were, when they rushed out to the rescue of a coffee can with 'Cry-Baby' written on athletic tape stuck to it?
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

Only 318 days, 4 hours, 15 minutes, and 34 seconds left until The BDM!

It is illegal to own either tobbaco seeds or plants unless you are a licenced farmer.

When faced with a moral question I ask myself; "What would The Lone Ranger do?"

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 6:08 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Zoid wrote:
Quote:

Point is, how come Kaylee (Firefly's, not mine) acts like a single strawberry is the Holy Grail? (and vibrating, at that) I mean, I believe Joss never does anything casually. He's got a reason for all this stuff. You think, "Ah-hah! I caught him in a mistake!", and then he comes back and flogs you with it.

One last thing to keep you thinking on this. In the opening scene of 'Serenity, Part I', we see our daring swashbucklers, our brigands, our pirates, our evil-doing highwaymen picking the bones of a derelict ship. The Cruiser Captain is about to sic his fighters on our "scavengers", before the wily ploy of a transmitter-laden BlueSun coffee can (yes, watch it again, it says 'BlueSun' right on the side, with 'Cry-Baby' taped onto it) decoys them away, letting our blood-thirsty cutthroats make good their escape.

Now skip all the intervening 1 hour and 30-some minutes, to the meeting on Whitefall. What have they so cunningly stolen from under the very noses of the Alliance?

FOOD.

Same thing in 'Bushwhacked'. The Cruiser Captain lets our desperados go, but keeps their swag. What was it? Family heirloom china and silver? Great-Great-Great-Grandma's platinum wedding ring?

FOOD.

Gotta give 'em credit, Alliance/BlueSun know the way to their subjects' hearts: through their stomachs.

And give Joss credit, too. If he does it once, it might be a mistake. If he does it twice, or continually, I'm thinkin' he's loading up a big haymaker he's getting ready to land, once you're properly distracted by the little jabs.



Very good post Zoid, and very much on the mark. We must remember that food is often perishable, thus making it expensive to package and ship, a fact which could mean the cost of freight could quickly overshadow the actual cost of the food. If most of the food production is done in the Core worlds, shipping to the rim could be prohibitively expensive. This could be why "protein" seems to be the mainstay of food option on Serenity; it is cheaper and easier to store and ship.

That leaves us to think on several other points. Does the Alliance even produce enough food to feed all its citizens? Is the Core so overcrowded that the bulk of food production is consumed there leaving little to ship to the Rim? Could food to the Rim be so scarce as a form of punishment for the planets that dared defy the Alliance? As Zoid pointed out, starvation or cutting of supply lines is a very effective tactic, just look at hundreds of examples in history.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 12:46 PM

SKYDANCE


Wow, Soupcatcher -- great catch on the labels thing.

Bleyddyn? Did you really just call Lettuce a ... food?

My guess is that not a single one of them has any clue how to set up a hydroponic garden (despite claims here on the forum about how "easy" it is, I doubt very many of us have any clue of the details needed). Sure, they could look it up on the Cortex ... but why would it even occur to any of them to check in the first place? They sort of have other things on their minds. *wink*

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Tuesday, June 8, 2004 1:19 PM

SOUPCATCHER


Thanks Skydance. I'm not entirely sure I'm correct on that one but it fits in with everything else we've seen River do. It could just be that she doesn't like labeling (can't judge a book by it's cover and all that) but I lean towards the cans being Blue Sun products because of her reaction to Jayne's t-shirt. Everything River does has a purpose for her, it just looks random to the rest of the crew because they can't comprehend her context. In many ways she reminds me of the dragon Gleep from the Asprin MythAdventures series of books. (dragon jumps up and down on floor, other characters complain, assassin in tunnel underground is crushed by cave in, noone else knows dragon just saved their lives - just an example that I could be misremembering).

I shaved off my beard for you, devil woman!

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