GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

River: Master of Her Own Destiny?

POSTED BY: MANWITHPEZ
UPDATED: Wednesday, June 9, 2004 21:50
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2608
PAGE 1 of 1

Thursday, June 3, 2004 1:35 AM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.


Here's a little question that's kinda bothered me since the first time I watched Ariel. Why exactly did River cut Jayne? Had she foreseen something? Had she foreseen his betrayal?

But, then again, did she cause his betrayal? At the beginning of the episode, Mal tells everyone that they are not to leave the ship at all during their stay at Ariel. River cuts Jayne, and Simon becomes worried about the worsening of her condition. So, he comes up with the hospital job, providing Jayne with the oppurtunity to turn them in. Then again, if she hadn't cut him, would he have even turned them in in the first place? I kinda doubt it. Since Mal had them confined to the ship, there was no way he could do it without everyone knowing who did it.

So, did River cause the whole situation?

"You'd have only lied anyhow..."
Mal

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, June 3, 2004 2:14 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Manwithpez wrote:
Quote:

Here's a little question that's kinda bothered me since the first time I watched Ariel. Why exactly did River cut Jayne? Had she foreseen something? Had she foreseen his betrayal?



Jayne was wearing a Blue Sun t-shirt when she sliced him w/ the butcher knife. It has been theorized she was destroying the Blue Sun symbol, not trying to kill Jayne.


"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, June 3, 2004 2:23 AM

GUNHAND


Quote:

Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
Manwithpez wrote:
Quote:

Here's a little question that's kinda bothered me since the first time I watched Ariel. Why exactly did River cut Jayne? Had she foreseen something? Had she foreseen his betrayal?



Jayne was wearing a Blue Sun t-shirt when she sliced him w/ the butcher knife. It has been theorized she was destroying the Blue Sun symbol, not trying to kill Jayne.


"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."




That was my take on it, especially when she says he looks better in red, as opposed to Blue (Sun). If they wouldn't have left the ship I don't think Jayne would have called the Feds at all. No opportunity really because Wash (or someone) would have read the Cortex transmission and either killed it, or killed Jayne.

Also he may not have had a motive without the stabbing, if he really was in it for the reward alone he could have turned Simon and River in to the Alliance at least two times before that, without even having to send a Wave. Once in Bushwhacked and once in Safe. Both times he was actually on an Alliance cruiser and could have easilly have said,"They're on the roof of Serenity" or "They back on the planet where the shooting happened." One is easy as all get out (Bushwhacked) and the other wasn't impossible (Safe) because the crew managed to track them to the Hillfolk town, I imagine the Alliance could have done likewise.

My take on the whole Ariel situation is that Jayne didn't intend to turn River and Simon in up until she slashed him. And he didn't do it just out of spite, remember he asks what happens if River would go after Kaylee next, Kaylee's like Jayne's little sister and I think he was actually sincere there. He turned them in not just for the money (although if he can make some by doing so that's even better) but because he seriously thought she was a threat to the crew and wanted her gone. Mal said he wouldn't leave them so he "went around" Mal by going to the Feds. Jayne is all manner of serious when he said,"It's not like I turned you in to the Feds" he doesn't believe he was doing something against Mal, but something for Mal that Mal wouldn't do for himself. But then he finally realises that if he does anything to the crew it is going against Mal.

At least that's what I think. Which is an off angle to most people's takes on Ariel but something I'm fair convinced of.



~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, June 3, 2004 2:43 AM

HOAGIE


the Blue Sun shirt theory is a good one, however you also have to consider that she might not have realized what she was doing at all, at least not at first. there is a beautiful moment in Objects In Space where she sees a stick lying on the cargo bay floor, surrounded by leaves drifint down from above. she picks up the stick and murmurs "it's just an object. it's not what you think." and then we cut to everyone screaming and she's holding a big ass gun.

I was of the opinion (until i heard the Blue Sun theory) that River was not really aware of what she was doing util after she slashed Jayne. after the screaming started she blinked back into reality and then tried to make it seem like she meant to do it, to maybe give the impression to her brother that the treatments might be working and that, while she is slashing people up with a big knife, she is aware and intending to do that.

that was my take on it

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, June 3, 2004 2:46 AM

GUNHAND


I agree some that she wasn't intending to hurt Jayne, actually she probably forgot Jayne was in the shirt. But she saw the shirt and attacked it. Sort of like how she made them eat mystery meals by defacing all the food labels that had Blue Sun logos on it.

So in her crazy little brainpan she saw Blue Sun, sliced, saw what she did and all she could think to say was,"You look better in red." after the fact, not realising probably that the red was blood and red is a bad thing.

Plus I didn't think she had any treatments until after Ariel because Simon didn't have the drugs he needed until after the med vault heist. Could be wrong there though.



~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, June 3, 2004 5:21 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Gunhand wrote:
Quote:

Also he may not have had a motive without the stabbing, if he really was in it for the reward alone he could have turned Simon and River in to the Alliance at least two times before that, without even having to send a Wave. Once in Bushwhacked and once in Safe. Both times he was actually on an Alliance cruiser and could have easilly have said,"They're on the roof of Serenity" or "They back on the planet where the shooting happened." One is easy as all get out (Bushwhacked) and the other wasn't impossible (Safe) because the crew managed to track them to the Hillfolk town, I imagine the Alliance could have done likewise.

My take on the whole Ariel situation is that Jayne didn't intend to turn River and Simon in up until she slashed him. And he didn't do it just out of spite, remember he asks what happens if River would go after Kaylee next, Kaylee's like Jayne's little sister and I think he was actually sincere there. He turned them in not just for the money (although if he can make some by doing so that's even better) but because he seriously thought she was a threat to the crew and wanted her gone. Mal said he wouldn't leave them so he "went around" Mal by going to the Feds. Jayne is all manner of serious when he said,"It's not like I turned you in to the Feds" he doesn't believe he was doing something against Mal, but something for Mal that Mal wouldn't do for himself. But then he finally realises that if he does anything to the crew it is going against Mal.

At least that's what I think. Which is an off angle to most people's takes on Ariel but something I'm fair convinced of.



Very good point Gunny. If Jayne was merely turning Simon & River in for money, he had ample opportunity to do so twice while on Alliance cruisers, and numerous times while off the ship on planets (like in Shindig).

I think River's attack, and Mal's refusal to put them off the ship influenced Jayne's decision to turn Simon & River in.



"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, June 3, 2004 1:06 PM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.


River displays precognition in at least one other episode: "Objects in Space". Is it not a viable theory that she was displaying it here? That she meant to cut Jayne and perhaps the shirt was a bonus? I think she meant to cut Jayne, and the placement of the shirt was secondary. Sort of an in clue to who had done to River.

But, I definitely think Jayne was the target.

"You'd have only lied anyhow..."
Mal

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, June 3, 2004 1:50 PM

KARENKAY99


Quote:

Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
Jayne was wearing a Blue Sun t-shirt when she sliced him w/ the butcher knife. It has been theorized she was destroying the Blue Sun symbol, not trying to kill Jayne.



i really agree with the theory that she was trying to destroy the blue sun symbol.

and at first i thought it was because the blue sun people (hands of blue) were the people that hurt her so she was getting back at them.
but lately i've been wondering if that's what was done to her, that she was made to attack blue sun.
so my next question is where does daddy work? we know he was on the 'board'. blue sun board maybe?

god, i love this show!!

"They say the snow on the roof is too heavy. They say the ceiling will cave in. His brains are in terrible danger."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, June 3, 2004 10:38 PM

JESS


I don't think Jayne really had the chance to turn River and Simon in and get away with it before. In bushwacked he couldn't have told the feds where they were without possibly getting Mal in trouble for hiding them, which he wouldn't do. And in safe, if he had told the feds Mal would have known. On Ariel he had the chance to just drop them off, with no danger to the ship or (he thought) himself. It was just too easy to pass up.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, June 4, 2004 2:17 AM

TEELABROWN


Quote:

and at first i thought it was because the blue sun people (hands of blue) were the people that hurt her so she was getting back at them.
but lately i've been wondering if that's what was done to her, that she was made to attack blue sun.
so my next question is where does daddy work? we know he was on the 'board'. blue sun board maybe?



That's a very well thought out little hypothesis, and it's new! Pretty shiny there.

_____________
"Freedom is the Freedom to say that 2 plus 2 make 4. If that is granted, all else follows"-Winston, 1984
Teela Brown, keeper of bad typing.
"No one reads these things any way."- Bart on Blackboard

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, June 4, 2004 3:34 AM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.


Also, why did River and Simon's parents not give a damn that their eldest son was having a huge problem with his sisters correspondence and could, apparently, prove it. And, their father didn't seem to care that his son had gotten pinched trying to find out what had happened to his little girl.

Could be a Fox /Samantha Mulder kinda thing brewing there.

Plus, I still think Jayne was the intended target of the knife weilding. Every time I watch that episode, the feeling only gets more intense.

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, June 4, 2004 8:05 AM

TERRIBLETINK


I think that, like a lot of other scenes in the show, this scene was deliberately set up so that it could be read a number of ways and support both immediate and future story lines.

I personally don't think that Jayne was the target -- I think it will bear out that it was indeed the Blue Sun logo that she was attacking.

But then again, if that story line never comes to fruition, the scene works fine as a standalone "crazy spell" for River. Remember, right before the attack, Jane was sitting at the table cleaning his knife. ("Could you not do that while we're.....ever again" -- Simon ) If I remember, there's one shot of River sort of watching him before the attack happens. So you could also say, well, she saw him with his knife looking all aggressive, and her own little messed up mimicry went waaaay awry.

See, this is what I just love about this show.



----------------------------------------------------
"I'll be in my bunk."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 10:11 PM

MANTICHORUS


Quote:

Originally posted by manwithpez:
Also, why did River and Simon's parents not give a damn that their eldest son was having a huge problem with his sisters correspondence and could, apparently, prove it. And, their father didn't seem to care that his son had gotten pinched trying to find out what had happened to his little girl.

Could be a Fox /Samantha Mulder kinda thing brewing there.

Plus, I still think Jayne was the intended target of the knife weilding. Every time I watch that episode, the feeling only gets more intense.

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."



I've been thinking along similar lines- that the Tam parents sold River out to the Blue Sun.
There's also a more disturbing possibility- maybe River was genetically engineered to be as smart as she is, in order for her to be sent to the 'Academy' later in life. :shivers:
Also, in one of the extras on the DVD (The Making of Firefly), one of the writers says 'psychic programme'. Does this mean that the crew of Serenity will meet another psychic at some point???

-------------------------------------------
"BADGER: You think you're better than other people.
MAL: Just the ones I'm better than."
-------------------------------------
"MAL: Gotta say, doctor, your talent for alienatin' folk is near miraculous.
SIMON: Yes, I'm very proud."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, June 9, 2004 9:50 PM

ZORIAH


Gunhand, you have articulated exactly what my take is on the whole Ariel incident.

I believe that River did not intend to hurt Jayne but to slash at the symbol of the Blue Sun.

Jayne getting slashed gave reality to his fears that River was unpredictable and potentially dangerous to the crew, when he talks to Mal about 'who next' I think he is deadly serious.

Gunhand I would have voted for you, if it weren't for Jayne ;)

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

FFF.NET SOCIAL