Reynolds vs. Cobb? by manwithpez

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Reynolds vs. Cobb?

POSTED BY: MANWITHPEZ
UPDATED: Thursday, June 3, 2004 12:25
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VIEWED: 2750
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Tuesday, June 1, 2004 3:04 PM

Important people don't do field work.

I guess I'm just stuck on the pathos that there will never be another episode of the show. Sure, movies are great, but, they too, come to an end. While I was watching the show, I realized that Jayne could probably whip the crap out of Mal, but never does, though he looks like he'd like to half the time. What happened between these two that makes Jayne kowtow to Mal so much. Here is a character that has proven on more than one occasion that there isn't much he's afraid of, or even respects besides himself, money, and a fondness for hookers. What makes Mal so special? Think it'd be cool if, in the movie, they decided to either tell us, or let these two throw down. Be kinda cool, I think.

"You would've lied anyway..."
Mal

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Tuesday, June 1, 2004 3:27 PM

TERRIBLETINK

I'd like to think Jayne has some kind of loyalty to Mal. It might just be based on the fact that Mal treats him a little better than his previous "employers." But there might be the beginnings of a sense of loyalty there. He spoke pretty openly to Mal at the end of Jaynestown.

I don't know if we'd see these two go at it, though. Despite his obvious toughness, Jayne is a follower more than a leader and he seems to have an understanding of the chain of command. (Especially considering how well he explained it in The Train Job.

) I don't think he'd take on Mal face-to-face. If he ever turned on Mal, it would be behind his back, I think.

I think they're going to have to be very careful about how they handle Jayne v. Mal or any sort of inevitable Jayne betrayal in the movie. Once that character goes too far down the good guy/bad guy road, it kills the suspense. If he were to betray Mal (or, after the whole airlock scene, anyone on the ship), then he's not going to be able to be one of crew and is pretty much out of the story. Likewise, should he pull off a big heroic act and almost sacrifice himself to save River or something, then the character loses something there too because there's no more suspenseful edge. So I would hope that Joss won't do anything too drastic in the movie. I mean, it would pretty much suck if they made Jayne a bad guy and killed him off an hour into this movie and then the show goes back to TV some day but without Jayne.

----------------------------------------------
"Morbid and creepifyin' I got no problem with - long as she does it quiet-like."

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Tuesday, June 1, 2004 3:32 PM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.

Yeah, but it's Whedon...He could come back.

I don't doubt that he's loyal, and I'm sure they were going to flesh out why. Its just given Jayne's disrespect for most things (Even Mal in Serenity...the whole "You don't pay me to talk pretty" thing)and his dislike of most of the rest of the crew...with the problematic exception of Book. Is it me, or did it seem that Book was the person Jayne got along with the best? Another relationship I would like to see pursued. I know this post's a little loopy, but I'm cold. The air conditioning in Korea is set on "Blue Ass", I think. I mean there is that moment in Serenity with him by the infirmary window for Kaylee, but, its Kaylee...You have to love her. Plus, I think he kinda felt bad for what he said at the table...Who knows.

"You would've lied anyway..."
Mal

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Tuesday, June 1, 2004 3:40 PM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

I agree w/ TerribleTink that as rough & tough as Jayne may try to act, he has a heart, and in his time w/ the crew is coming to learn loyalty, at least to a degree.

Take Jaynestown for instance. Jayne feels remorse and confusion over the Mudders hero worship of him and the young Mudder's self sacrifice to save him. This is evident in his conversation w/ Mal at the end of the episode. I also offer up Jayne's obvious caring and protective behavior of Kaylee. She is like a kid sister to him.

I think that Jayne would never actually try to surplant Mal, or even raise a gun to him. He has found a man he can respect in Mal, and a home of sorts on Serenity.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Tuesday, June 1, 2004 4:34 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

2 quick comments:

When Mal offers Jayne a job ( in OoG), Jayne probably wasn't use to such a forward show of respect for his 'talents'. I think deep down, that indebted Jayne to Mal, if not so much on a verbal level. Jayne also figures that there's more to Mal than meets the eye, and even if he could probably whipe the floor w/ him in a straight up fight...Mal always has something up his sleeve.

Also, from 'Ariel', Mal leaves no doubt just what he expects from Jayne,and what he's is willing to do should Jayne cross him again.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, June 1, 2004 7:34 PM

WEERWOLF

Maybe Jayne has once seen The Real Mal in action and doesn't want to tickle any sleeping dragons. It would explain why he gets out of the way when Captain Mal gets serious (the dinner party in Serenity, Mal sending Wash to the bridge in Out of Gas).

---------------------------------------
"Damn it Mal... I forgot my line!"

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Tuesday, June 1, 2004 8:03 PM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.

And another thing. That reaction shot of Jayne outside the infirmary...Why was nothing like that ever repeated. I know a lot of people are going to point to the end of "Jaynetown", but after a fresh viewing, it occurs to me that Jayne didn't really grow from the experience. All he says is I don't understand and why...Not bad things, but nothing to change his character much either. Plus, he gets down to his real greedy side later on anyways. Plus, one of my favorite exchanges in the show happens in Jaynetown between Kaylee and Simon right before the talk Mal has with Jayne. I think Jayne's a great character, I'm not questioning that. But, if there's a character going to turn on the crew from the inside, he's the best bet...Which is probably why it would be Wash or Zoe. It is a Joss Whedon show, after all...

"You would've lied anyway..."
Mal

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Tuesday, June 1, 2004 8:24 PM

ELWOODMOM

All the posts here make sense, and I can't really add any more to everyone's point of view. I also wondered about why Jayne didn't up and take Mal down. I just thought that he knew his background was on land, and figured he wasn't qualified to captain a ship. He's also sneaky in his ways of getting ahead. A contradictory character, who buys apples for the crew because of his conscience!

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Wednesday, June 2, 2004 2:12 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Jayne is loyal to Mal for four reasons:

1) It is more profitable to be 'with' Mal than it is to be against Mal.

2) He does not have to worry about the rest of the crew betraying him or stealing from him (something to be concerned about in the company of pirates and cutthroats.)

3) Size and strength mean nothing to a bullet. Mal is quite capable of ending Mr. Cobb. He has also demonstrated a superior intellect. Mal even clobbered Jayne physically once. Bullies respect that sort of thing. A wrench to the face makes a lasting impression.

4) Jayne is gradually coming to like and respect the people he works with on Serenity.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, June 2, 2004 5:34 AM

ELWOODMOM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Jayne is loyal to Mal for four reasons:

1) It is more profitable to be 'with' Mal than it is to be against Mal.

2) He does not have to worry about the rest of the crew betraying him or stealing from him (something to be concerned about in the company of pirates and cutthroats.)

3) Size and strength mean nothing to a bullet. Mal is quite capable of ending Mr. Cobb. He has also demonstrated a superior intellect. Mal even clobbered Jayne physically once. Bullies respect that sort of thing. A wrench to the face makes a lasting impression.

4) Jayne is gradually coming to like and respect the people he works with on Serenity.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

1. Agreed, in fact, I hadn't thought of that aspect!
2. Probably doesn't concern Jayne, since he knows he could beat hell out of anyone who touches his stuff!
3. Yup, Mal was definately speaking in Jayne's languare then!
4. Which is probably very surprising to him, this caring about others bit!

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Wednesday, June 2, 2004 6:29 AM

ARAWAEN

Mal intentionally got the drop on Jayne in Ariel though. I think the common consensus is that Jayne cannot be trusted 100% and not to give him an opening, at least Mal and Zoe hold this opinion (and most likely Wash).

Jayne is probably the toughest physically, but Mal and Zoe recoup this edge by using their intelligence and discipline. If deprived of these advantages Jayne could probably take either one.

Arawaen

Um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm Angry. And I'm Armed.

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Wednesday, June 2, 2004 8:23 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

So, if Mal took stupid pills and had a discipline removal operation, Jayne could beat him.

In any event, Mal seems to be just as adept at gunplay as Jayne is. Got a head shot on a Marshall holding a hostage without breaking his stride.

Big, strong, and mean don't matter none to twenty grains of lead. Mal is plenty formidable.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, June 2, 2004 9:00 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
Originally posted by manwithpez:
Jayne could probably whip the crap out of Mal, but never does, though he looks like he'd like to half the time.

Could he do it? Maybe, if he got the drop on Mal, and even then I'd consider it iffy. What Mal doesn't have in brute strength he makes up for in sneakiness. Watch him take out the cops in Trash - the man fights dirty and isn't the least bit ashamed of it.

Yeah, maybe half the time Jayne would like to pound on Mal - I get the feeling he'd do that to anybody who irritated him. But after Ariel, I doubt he'd try his luck at it. He's seen the crazy side of Mal just a little too up close and personal.

Let me rephrase; I doubt he'd try it without backup. And I don't mean just a real big gun either.

In one of the episodes, Jayne says that Mal must have some kind of a plan for the Tams when he takes them on board. That would indicate he has some manner of respect for Mal. Could be that Jayne's already picked up on that strength Inara talked about at the conclusion of Heart of Gold.

Jayne seems to like where he is. I don't know that even if he had gotten the payoff in Ariel that he would have left the ship. It might have just meant having more spending money along the way.

We have art so as not to die of truth ~ Neitzsche
http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922

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Wednesday, June 2, 2004 1:19 PM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Jayne is loyal to Mal for four reasons:

1) It is more profitable to be 'with' Mal than it is to be against Mal.

2) He does not have to worry about the rest of the crew betraying him or stealing from him (something to be concerned about in the company of pirates and cutthroats.)

3) Size and strength mean nothing to a bullet. Mal is quite capable of ending Mr. Cobb. He has also demonstrated a superior intellect. Mal even clobbered Jayne physically once. Bullies respect that sort of thing. A wrench to the face makes a lasting impression.

4) Jayne is gradually coming to like and respect the people he works with on Serenity.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

1. That is a good point. But, I get the feeling that the Alliance is probably offering more for River than Jayne or the rest of the crew of Serenity is used to seeing. I kinda got the impression that any problems between Mal and Jayne were going to be more involved before Fox changed the direction of the show. He argues with Mal about the take with Badger. Then there's the dinner table conversation. I think these two were headed for more problems before Fox asked Joss to lighten up the show.

2. Its obvious that he is worried about what the crew will do to him if they found out what he has done. He get's nervous whenever its brought up, like in the cockpit with Mal during Objects in Space and River says he's afraid that Simon and she will find out that he betrayed them. He gets very, very nervous in Trash when he's on Simon's table. But, of all, I think he's the most afraid of River. Plus, Jayne has no problem going through someone's stuff and was almost gleeful when, in Safe, the Tams went missing. Granted, its a moot point because he rushed to put it all back. The crew might trust him, but he doesnt trust them at all.

3. The wrench to the face had not occured when Serenity happened, plus, I think you're right, bullies do respect a low blow from time to time. But, the low blow only proves my point, I think. I don't think Mal could have fought Jayne and won. Jayne has proven that's he more than a little adept with weapons. If it were not so, why would Mal ask Jayne to shoot out the magetic net point in Our Mrs. Reynolds instead of doing it himself. Of course Mal is smarter, which is why, I think after viewing Jayne fight his old partner in Jaynestown, he probably choose the low blow instead of a straigh fight. Jayne was all muscle and no brains in that fight. Which is not to challenge Mal's staying power. He'd put more than a minor whooping on Niska's boys at various times.

4. Jayne, to me, may be the only static character in Firefly, which is one of the tragedies of its cancellation. We didn't really get to see any character definition or growth with him. Most people point to Jaynestown, more even so to Ariel. In Jaynestown, he can't understand the Mudders, and when he does start to grasp it, Mal turns him away from it (By calling him a jackass, if I remember right), and in Ariel, it appeared to me to be more a point of pride with him than any actual apology. He wasn't sorry that he turned the Tams in, but he didn't want the rest of the crew to know what he had done. That there may be the most compelling evidence that he's beginning to soften and like the crew a bit.

Man, I rambled on far too long here. God! I love this site. I'm sorry about that. Mal is damn near my favorite character in the show, but I think Jayne could take him, if he got over whatever stigma he has attached to the captain by way of rank or command, and, maybe as a father figure.

Later.

"You would've lied anyway..."
Mal

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 7:47 AM

SPLIBERTARIAN

I think Jayne has a great deal of respect for Mal. I think as Weerwolf mentioned, Jayne may have had an opportunity to at least catch glimpses of "The Real Mal". During the argument at the table over what to do with Dobson and the Tams in Serenity (it is hard to make out because everyone is talking at once), Jayne says something along the lines of "Captain's got a mean streak, you best not..." with a look on his face of both a sort of sadistic delight but also admiration. (Similar to the look Jayne has after Mal shoots Dobson and calls him over to dump the body.)

I think a lot of the conflicts between the two arise because Jayne doesn't 'get' Mal. He thinks of Mal as more like himself than he is. In The Train Job Jayne is sure that Mal has some more self serving purpose in keeping the Tams around. In Bushwhacked he's sure he has figured it out. This is what leads him into trouble in Ariel - Jayne honestly doesn't see turning the Tams in as a betrayal of Mal.

That's not to say that Jayne wouldn't betray Mal. After all, however much Jayne respects Mal, he still thinks pretty highly of himself. Like most people, he can see flaws in others, e.g. Mal as "pretentious", more easily than those in himself. It seems to take some pretty dramatic events, such as in Jaynestown and the end of Ariel, to spark Jayne's introspection.

It comes down to the fact that Mal is a leader. It's documented in his war record; it is demonstrated in every episode. He understands people in a way that Jayne does not, and he uses that understanding to both marshal the troops behind him, and to confront the enemy in front of him. Jayne follows Mal's leadership both because he respects Mal and because it serves Jayne best - something Mal understands and fosters. But I think Jayne is also learning that there can be more to life than that. Whether or not that perspective can prevail within him is another thing.

As far as a throw-down...Jayne is likely physically stronger and technically more skilled, but Mal would see Jayne coming from a mile away and is competent enough in his own right to take that advantage to victory.

At least, that's my view of things...

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Thursday, June 3, 2004 12:25 PM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.

Very well thought out and communicated. I think that was the best one of these I've read so far. I had missed the fact that Jayne see faults in other people before himself. I mean, we all do that, he just takes it a step further.

Mal would see Jayne coming a mile off, just like he did in Ariel, when no one else, even the ingenious Simon Tam did. River don't count. They fiddled in her brains.

"You'd have only lied anyhow..."
Mal

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