GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

The Over used River?

POSTED BY: MORSE
UPDATED: Friday, August 17, 2012 12:54
SHORT URL: http://bit.ly/QM0XYN
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Wednesday, August 8, 2012 1:52 PM

MORSE


I've been doing Rping online for Fiefly for years now, and I know the series inside and out. I've seen probably a dozen people that have been a part of the 'academy', and people with River like psychic powers and combat skill.

Then I just read that recent Serenity comic, and I just thought I'd ask.

Does anyone else feel that River has become completely over used and its hurting the series at this point? Before River was just crazy and in the background and she just said confusing yet relevant things. Now its just 'the crews doing something', and 'river saves the day', and no one really knows what she did.


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Wednesday, August 8, 2012 4:58 PM

WISHIMAY

"Well, so long Earth...Thanks for the air... and what-not" -Philip J. Fry


Hurting the series? If we have any less of a series.....


I'm all for women saving the day. They do all the time anyway.

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Wednesday, August 8, 2012 6:58 PM

MORSE


No, its not the fact that she's a woman and saving the day, I could care less about that. Its the fact that since the movie ended, in all of the comics there seems to be a point where River does this amazing feat, like sensing someone is an alliance soldier and saving all of their lives, to fighting off a group of men that were going to ambush them, to saving Mal from being executed on the dirt.

There used to be a balance to the series, where everyone kind of had a fair share of usefulness, and River was balanced by the fact she was crazy.

Now its just River saves the day, and everyone else was helpless to stop whatever she was saving them from.

Pretty much its just Deus ex River every other minute..... and it used to be about more then that.

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Wednesday, August 8, 2012 7:30 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by Morse:
. . . all of the comics there seems to be a point where River does this amazing feat, like sensing someone is an alliance soldier and saving all of their lives, to fighting off a group of men that were going to ambush them, to saving Mal from being executed on the dirt.

My explanation involves U.S. dollars. Those are the 3 free and short comics -- 8, 9 and 12 pages -- that make River the hero. Because of the short length, it is quicker to let her ruthlessly do the job without any small talk or mercy.

When Mal does it, he takes his own sweet time, yakking about his intentions. That's why we love him, but he stretches the job to at least 24 pages. In contrast, ice-cold River doesn't feel the need for conversation. She cuts their throat or kick 'em in the head and she's done. She gets to The End in fewest pages than Mal.

That's important when it is a free comic and every page costs extra. But it doesn't make River lovable.

The Art has gone from realistic-style Will Conrad to Chris Samnee to cartoonish-style Fábio Moon. Each new artist is working faster and cheaper in dollars per page than the previous. If the trend continues, the art will eventually be at the Dilbert level of cartooning where only difference between River and Inara is her knees show in the short skirts.

$ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $

For anybody who hasn't read those comics --
River ultimately saves the day in Serenity: The Other Half
www.darkhorse.com/Blog/158/serenity-other-half

River secretly saves the day in Serenity: Downtime
www.usatoday.com/life/comics/2010-11-08-serenity08_ST_N.htm

River stealthily saves the day in Serenity: It's Never Easy for Free Comic Book Day 2012
Serenity starts at page 16 into the 28 pages comic https://digital.darkhorse.com/profile/2125.free-comic-book-day-2012-st
ar-warsserenity
/
or if you don't want to register with Darkhorse Comics www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=4&tid=51833&p=1

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Thursday, August 9, 2012 3:00 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Two has a very good point. I also think that it is simple lazy writting.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, August 9, 2012 5:44 PM

EBFIDDLER


Yep. I find the recent comic to be weak tea. It certainly doesn't add any depth to the characters. Plot summary: Mal screws up; River saves the day. If there really is a comic book series, as has been talked about recently, let's just hope the plots are a bit more creative than that.

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Friday, August 10, 2012 3:08 AM

DEATHPAIN


I havnt really looked at the comics as yet, as im reletivly new to the community. From this thread are the comics worth missing out entirely, or is it just not anywhere near as good as the live series stuff ( which although now I have wrote that, it seems a stupid comment since it was perfect to start with )

So yeah basically is it worth me looking at that kind of stuff ?

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Friday, August 10, 2012 3:17 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
I also think that it is simple lazy writing.

It's not lazy so much as the writers can't giveaway big money-maker ideas on free Serenity comics. Darkhorse Comics wants to stay in business and good ideas sell for $3.99 a piece.

Serenity comics conserve its limited number of good ideas because it is based on "reality" while the writers of Buffy and Angel comics can make infinite number of stories by "magic". I mean magic literally. Example: Because Serenity is reality, Zoe can't be a pregnant robot, but that happened to Buffy.

Come to think of it, Zoe does act robotic and she is pregnant. Maybe the robot-Buffy pregnancy story arc can be reused in the next three Serenity issues . . . See how easy it is for ideas to crossover from Buffy to Serenity? The only thing that needs to be sacrificed is reality.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Friday, August 10, 2012 3:55 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by two:
Serenity comics conserve its limited number of good ideas because it is based on "reality" while the writers of Buffy and Angel comics can make infinite number of stories by "magic". I mean magic literally. Example: Because Serenity is reality, Zoe can't be a pregnant robot, but that happened to Buffy.



I disagree that there is a limited number of good ideas because it is based more in reality.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, August 10, 2012 5:30 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
I disagree that there is a limited number of good ideas because it is based more in reality.

I'll be more specific. I see Buffy, Spike, Angel and Faith comics are monthly events and Serenity is irregularly published once in a great while. Is that irregularity caused by Whedon creative constipation? No! I believe realistic sci-fi is many times harder and slower to write than magical/superhero comics. Which explains why River has become a superhero in 3 free comics. It is so much easier to write a story when River can solve any problem with her super girl powers. She is invincible! That's all you need to quickly write a story. Writing realistic sci-fi is not so easy.

http://jul0022.deviantart.com/art/FF-17-Variant-cover-305950130

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Friday, August 10, 2012 7:03 AM

BYTEMITE


Hey Deathpain. Some of the comics are worth it, but the free comic book day comic It's Never Easy... It's kinda fun, but the story is a little weak and raises some questions, and the drawings are, well, did I mention it's a free comic? So I don't really know that they were going for quality, but at the same time 'cause it's free, I'm not sure we can complain about the other comics as a whole or view this as a trend.

Those Left Behind had a good story, but the characters were a little off-model. The art in Better days is good, and that's probably the best comic storywise. The art is still good in The Other Half, Down Time, and The Shepherd's Tale (except for a few panels). Down Time and The Other Half had River saving the crew, but had other crew stuff going on as well that was fun. It's Never Easy, the free comic book day comic, has River saving Mal in a kind of unbelievable way.

It would be hard to come up with a lot of Sci-Fi stories based on the setting, but it would be easy to come up with a lot of Western or Crime stories with a slight sci-fi spin. So I've always figured that something else is holding Joss back, and I'm not sure what it is.

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Friday, August 10, 2012 7:29 AM

MORSE


I don't find 'it being easy' to be a viable excuse. This site alone produces dozens of elements of fan fiction, which can rival the premise of all of the comics. And yet we have the same things happening each time.

My whole point with this really was just to point out that River has been turned into an immensely over powered monster, without a flaw in site. Its drifted to the point where its almost like your watching some crappy anime story, where this little girl is 'naive' and 'innocent' seeming and yet is the most powerful person ever.

- And as a heavy player in the RP community, it's giving me enough of a headache, since it seems like 1/4 people wants to have psychic powers and to have gone into the academy.

'Firefly' used to be a realistic science fiction thing..... but its drifting farther and farther from that every day.

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Friday, August 10, 2012 8:50 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by Morse:
I don't find 'it being easy' to be a viable excuse.

'Firefly' used to be a realistic science fiction thing..... but its drifting . . .

All excuses are inexcusable. If easy ain't the word, maybe lazy is more exact.

In the latest free comic, Serenity: It's Never Easy, Zack Whedon picked the easiest(laziest) idea -- thief steals spaceship. Good start! Except River aborts the story with a quick kick in the head. Bad finish. Zack used the same story for Star Wars: The Art of the Bad Deal. That's a bit lazy. What do you expect for free?

Now, imagine the thief flies away with Serenity in the first panel, first page. Zack would have been challenged in writing Mal's and Zoe's reaction to losing their home. Somehow River saves the day, but this time it is not because she has super kicking powers. It is because she was napping in her room when Serenity was stolen. Sleepiness is in character for her.

How does River save the day when she is like a baby on-board when a car is stolen at a convenience store while Mommy goes shopping for cigarettes and beer? Damned if I know! I would have liked to have read how Zack Whedon did it. Except Zack took the easy(lazy) way out. I was so disappointed.

Angry Mal watches his ship being stolen.
http://thehouseofvin.deviantart.com/art/Tightpants-WIP-319229896

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Friday, August 10, 2012 11:21 AM

DEATHPAIN


Well surely thats what would of eventually happened with River wouldnt it ?

She only at the end of Serenity got the hang of mastering some of her skills, so after that I would imagine she would of had a spell of mastering some of the other stuff which she had found a bit overwhelming up until then.

Eventually she would master that stuff tho, and then she would be a uncontrollable killing machine with the ability to know exactly what is going to happen before anyone else.

Thats why the alliance took her wasn't it ?

And also...

How can you not fantasise about Summer Glau kicking the crap out of a load of people and saving you while you sit there and watch ???

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Friday, August 10, 2012 3:05 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by deathpain:
Well surely thats what would of eventually happened with River wouldnt it ?
Thats why the alliance took her wasn't it ?
And also...

An idea for future comics: River should volunteer to spy (but not kill) for the Verse's equivalents to CIA and MI5 and KGB. River signs up with all three espionage houses because she is an over-achiever.

Inara and Kaylee know and sometimes help her spy. Mal, Zoe, and Simon don't have a clue to River's secret life. Jayne's the one who suspects.

River's fans will find it hard to accept that she is spying on the Rim planets for the Alliance. The Browncoats know what she is doing because she told them. Neither side trusts her because she is half-crazy. And yet she is too valuable to kill.

I think the Serenity comics could make intriguing stories about River double-crossing her spy handlers. Mal's tiny smuggling operation will be her cover.

River gets into brawl . . . while spying.
http://thehouseofvin.deviantart.com/art/Miranda-319038616

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Friday, August 10, 2012 5:16 PM

DEATHPAIN


That doesnt make sense to me. Why would River help the Alliance at all after what they did to her ?

I always just got the sense that she wanted to re-live the childhood that she never managed to get. Be a kid once, and not have to think about the terrible things that the alliance put her through but struggled to do that as her brain was shreaded and she couldnt physically do anything but think about it.

So why after all that would she spy for the Alliance ?

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Friday, August 10, 2012 5:23 PM

DEATHPAIN


If anything, you could of gone the other route. You knew that the Alliance wouldnt just leave it so after she took the Serenity into space that last time chances are the Alliance already had a plan to try and recover there 'asset' even with what had happened at the end of the movie.

You would probably not hear much from the Alliance for a while as they smoothed things over with the public and then when people began to forget, as they eventually will then there plans to recover River would continue.

You could then take that story the opposite direction in which they actually manage to recover her and continue off where they left off.

You dont hear from River for a good amount of time, and then when you see her again she is nothing of her old self but a agent for the Alliance. She remembers nothing and is just the tool the alliance originally intended to create her.

This leads the crew of the Serenity on a wild ride to try and get River back again and save her from what the Alliance has done to her, all very aware that it may be irreversable anyway but still willing to try as she is part of there crew.

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Friday, August 10, 2012 8:33 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by deathpain:
That doesn't make sense to me. Why would River help the Alliance at all after what they did to her ?

So the Alliance won't kill her? Or kill Simon? It is a classic motive in espionage: "Spy for the Alliance or your family dies, River." The Alliance knows exactly where River is. One missile could destroy Serenity and everyone River loves.

The name of the Serenity comics would need to change if River moved to another ship in order to hide from the Alliance, so I predict she isn't moving.

Give me a valid reason why the Alliance will forgive and forget River after what she did with the Miranda broadcast. River needs to get the Alliance on her side because Serenity does not have enough armor plate to protect her from the Alliance's Hellfire missiles.

An example of River style Espionage. River stroking Badger's Pin and he doesn't know what to do about it.

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Saturday, August 11, 2012 3:57 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by two:
Give me a valid reason why the Alliance will forgive and forget River after what she did with the Miranda broadcast.



The Alliance may very well have bigger problems to deal with after the wave and simple be content to let her be as long as she is not causing more problems for them. They did send an Operative, most likely one of there best, and look at the problems cause. Sometimes it is better to leave sleeping dogs lie.

Plus Miranda may cause a shake up and put a new group within the Parliament in power. As Badger said, with crime and politics the situation is always fluid.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Saturday, August 11, 2012 5:54 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
The Alliance may very well have bigger problems to deal with after the wave and simple be content to let her be as long as she is not causing more problems for them. They did send an Operative, most likely one of there best, and look at the problems cause. Sometimes it is better to leave sleeping dogs lie.

When writing comics, it is never better to let the dogs lie. Go hunting with 'em. Make 'em howl at the moon!

You think that Mal had problems before Miranda? After, he will have more! That is the entire reason to continue the Serenity Comics. Where is the fun coming from when Serenity and her crew sink into poverty and obscurity? The stories will be too peaceful. River and the Alliance need to get into conflict and bring on major chaos. That is kind of comic I want to read.

I want to see Mal try to keep his sanity when River is a gigantic pain in the ass and his most useful crew member. She is a criminal genius! I want to see in the comics that Mal is constantly thinking of marooning River, and sometimes does, but he always changes his mind.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Saturday, August 11, 2012 6:26 AM

MARKOMI

Some people juggle geese!


As a fanfic writer you run into the same problem, especially when you're writing post-movie fics. It's not easy to think out good plots when there's that little voice in your head telling you you could only throw in River and her scythe, and that would solve any problem.

The solution is to keep her flawed; she's still nuts, she's still a brat. And I think if you wanted to, you could split her loyalties, because often it seems she has her own agenda, and she's not one to let the rest of the crew in on it.

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Saturday, August 11, 2012 8:07 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by two:
Where is the fun coming from when Serenity and her crew sink into poverty and obscurity?



..because it is not every other comic and sci-fi story out there. What attracted me to Firefly is the fact that the crew is basically trying to survive.

Quote:

Originally posted by MarKomi:
As a fanfic writer you run into the same problem, especially when you're writing post-movie fics. It's not easy to think out good plots when there's that little voice in your head telling you you could only throw in River and her scythe, and that would solve any problem.

The solution is to keep her flawed; she's still nuts, she's still a brat. And I think if you wanted to, you could split her loyalties, because often it seems she has her own agenda, and she's not one to let the rest of the crew in on it.



I don't think River and her scythe can solve any problem. River is very good in combat, but is not bullet proof, nor is she Neo.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:47 AM

MORSE


I'm very outspokenly anti-river. If she was the main character, that'd be one thing. But the fact is she isn't. She is built specifically for the "wouldn't it be awesome if" fan base, and I think that's stupid.

They spend the entire series developing the entire crew, and they throw it out.

I don't wanna see the crew of the Serenity in huge, world changing events, and its not something that they're likely to keep doing.

They got the word out, and its time to go back to playing cowboy freighter.

Put river back in the box, and lets see some more of Jayne, Zoe, Kaylee, and Simon, and less "River came and saved the day" bulls$%# that has been crammed down our throats ever since the credits of the movie ran.

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Saturday, August 11, 2012 2:29 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by Morse:
Put river back in the box, and lets see some more of Jayne, Zoe, Kaylee, and Simon, and less "River came and saved the day" bulls$%# that has been crammed down our throats ever since the credits of the movie ran.

It's time for an analogy: River shouldn't be the center of the comics. She should remain, as in the TV show, a MacGuffin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacGuffin

If River and Simon remove themselves from the comics because she enrolls at Princeton (she is an Einstein!) Serenity comics would become like The Walking Dead comics with one ghastly problem of survival after another for Mal and the crew of Serenity. Reavers as zombies, know what I mean?

I think River is much more sophisticated than walking dead zombies as a story device, which is why Serenity comics could be better than Walking Dead comics. The Walking Dead is now at issue 100, but that's not the comic for me. Someday I hope to see Serenity #100.

I'll give you a look at a page from The Walking Dead#100.

Without River, the Serenity comics become a too simple story about a small crew, never staying long in one place, facing overwhelming odds against their survival. Did I mention the occasional zombie (I meant Reaver) hordes? That's also the premise of The Walking Dead comics, which has the Zoe who backtalks, yet respects, the Mal character.

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Monday, August 13, 2012 1:31 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


If River is no longer touched, then I'm no longer interested, its as simple as that. If she's not touched anymore she becomes an all powerful MarySue who is unstoppable and ruts with crew members, BORINGGGGGGGG.
A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver. I do like it when she saves the day some of the time but not all the time.

I have Kathy Bates on speed dial, mwa ha ha ha (in exaggeratedly evil voice)

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Monday, August 13, 2012 2:34 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
If River is no longer touched, then I'm no longer interested, its as simple as that. If she's not touched anymore she becomes an all powerful MarySue who is unstoppable and ruts with crew members, BORINGGGGGGGG.
A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver. I do like it when she saves the day some of the time but not all the time.

I have Kathy Bates on speed dial, mwa ha ha ha (in exaggeratedly evil voice)

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.



I'm still the opposite. I think keeping River touched is the easy way out. She can be crazy when needed to add danger, and coherent enough to save the day when all else seems lost. I also don't think she because an all-powerful character if sane, or takes to bedding other members of the crew.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Monday, August 13, 2012 4:50 PM

EBFIDDLER


I like to write River as a complex character, like the others. She's got her strengths and weaknesses, same as they do. She's not a superhero in my fanfic stories, and she doesn't get to save the day any more than any of the other characters do. She has unique skills, but also vulnerabilities, and some of the special abilities she has are liabilities as well, a two-edged sword. I am not interested in an invincible River; that's rather dull. A complex River, on the other hand, is very interesting. On the question of River being "crazy" or "cured": well, that's a black and white view of it, and Firefly to me has always been about exploring shades of grey. Mental health isn't an "on" or "off" switch, it's a spectrum. I think River is neither perfectly sane nor perfectly crazy. She's human.

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Tuesday, August 14, 2012 4:05 AM

BYTEMITE


You'll have to explain that one to me, Nick, about how NOT removing complications is an "easy way out."

River being crazy doesn't mean she doesn't change, mature, or have a character arc. It doesn't mean we all just want to keep her exactly the same, or write her exactly the same.

The only reason I ever see a writer make River more normal is so that she can be written into romantic relationships. And I just don't see River as a romance-oriented character (Even if Joss and Company do). I don't think she fits into romance scenarios, she seems mostly to mock romance notions the few times she approaches them. If she's in character then she's as likely to creep out and repel her selected partner as she is to attract them, whether she's sane or not.

So instead, I prefer to envision her character arc as about confronting what happened to her, then confronting and taking down the people who did that to her. And then I like to tie that into the over-all myth arc of the show. As Two said, River is a MacGuffin. She drives the plot, and her skills and abilities all serve that narrative purpose.

Relationships and making a normal life for yourself is easy. Mental illness and brain damage is the hardest goddamn thing in the world to deal with apart from war and starvation. And losing has some unthinkable consequences.

But I have doubts that Joss and Company see it this way. So you may well be right, and I'll have to suffer through yet more nauseating Echo x Ballard, only revisited as Firefly canon. Joyous.

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Tuesday, August 14, 2012 6:48 AM

EBFIDDLER


I think what nick is pointing at, here, is that using River's "touchedness" in a certain way is a lazy way out of plot construction. When a writer writes the characters into a box, and no reasonable way out presents itself -- bingo! River's crazy, and a crazy answer solves the problem! It's just another way of using her as a Deus ex machina. Just like writing the characters into a box, and no good way out presents itself, and bingo! River's got super powers, and saves the day! Also deus ex machina. I have no problem whatsoever with River being "touched" in a day-to-day way, where it is a facet of her character, and affects her view of the world and others' views of her. But I don't really want to see it used as an excuse for lazy writing. (I am speaking generally, here, and not pointing to any specific story. Although maybe It's Never Easy does kinda fit that profile, come to think of it.)

I agree with Byte's and Two's points about making use of River as a MacGuffin. Also about mental health issues being a complex and difficult thing to deal with...see what I said before about the lack of on/off switch. People in general don't deal well with the mentally ill: they shun when they should engage, they let their actions reflect fears that they don't want to confront, and they ostracize people for their differences instead of trying to understand them. Anyway, any character with brain trauma like River has had, is going to be *complex*. (And besides that, I also think that River was a complex character even before the Academy got ahold of her.)

I think that part of the problem with the free comic format is its brevity, leading to shallowness. There simply isn't the time and space to deal with complex characters, and so the storyline devolves into cartoonish treatment of persons who are superficial charicatures of the complex characters we came to know and love on the show.

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Tuesday, August 14, 2012 7:42 AM

BYTEMITE


Well... I'm not guilty of that, nope! Free and clear of the deus ex machina here.

So, uh, blatant lies about my plotting ability beside...

I do kinda think that her unique perspective and behaviour and her psychological trauma are a part of her character, because that's not something that ever actually goes away no matter how much closure you give a person. Even schizophrenics, it's not like you can just toss them anti-psychotics and they function just like everyone else does.

I don't think River being written as "off" necessarily leads to deus ex machina, anymore than I suppose that having her be entirely normal necessarily inevitably leads to that.

What bothers me about River being written as normal is this implication that difficult mental health issues can just be "fixed" so easily. And that once a person is "fixed," then they can have a romantic relationship and then their lives will be fulfilled and complete and whatever. It doesn't work that way for some of us. Some of us have to struggle. On our own. Every day.

I know that other people find relationships meaningful, but this is what I find meaningful. This is what I see in River.

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Tuesday, August 14, 2012 8:12 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
If she's not touched anymore she becomes an all powerful MarySue who is unstoppable and ruts with crew members, BORINGGGGGGGG.



You must hate Zoe.


Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, August 14, 2012 8:24 AM

BYTEMITE


Zoe isn't a Mary Sue. Riona's description combines two particularly obnoxious types of Mary Sue.

One kind of Mary Sue can easily resolve any problem because their skills and abilities so far outstrip the other characters that it makes the other normally capable characters look incompetent in comparison (as happened in It's Never Easy with River and Mal).

The other type of Mary Sue can make anyone of her preferred gender fall in love with her instantly and is basically just an excuse to write smut with that character (which thankfully has not yet happened to any canon version of River that I'm aware of).

For extra creepiness, the Mary Sue can either be or fall in love with an author avatar.

Riona was expressing concern that a poorly handled River could become any of those.

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Tuesday, August 14, 2012 1:19 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Hi Byte a stor, I don't think Eb meant that you were doing those bad things, I think she was talking generally?

I don't think Zoe is a MarySue, she's complex and interesting and can't outskill everyone on the crew. She's good at some things but she's not good at everything and her knowledge and abilities, though notable, have limits.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise. "A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, August 14, 2012 4:19 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


I don't think many are going to right River as completely normal, or even completely sane. That does not mean she can't be involved in some normality. We see that in certain scenes from the show, and defiantly at the end of the movie.

A crazier River can be used as EB pointed out. She could also make a situation that much worse. The crazier, more off she is the less the writer has to worry about her reacting in a realistic sort of way.

Byte, yes in real life metal illness is very hard to deal with. I've worked in adult care homes for people with mental disabilities. I'm glad Firefly is fiction. If reality River's problems would continue to linger and she would have little arc. Even likely at some point she would hurt, or kill a member of the crew because of her skills. Sometimes fiction is good.

As far as not wanting to see River in romantic relationships, well that is you, Byte. Other feel different. Also, a person does not have to be "fixed" before they can be in a romantic relationship. In fact her being slightly off can cause problem in that relationship and possible her to lose it. Being sane, or saner does not mean a person will be full filled in their life.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, August 14, 2012 6:11 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

That does not mean she can't be involved in some normality. We see that in certain scenes from the show, and defiantly at the end of the movie.


I suppose once again that gets into my views on ethics, responsibility, and doing the least amount of harm when someone can't always trust themselves. As well as questions about vulnerability and taking advantage. Mostly I consider these kinds of romance a very bad idea. Ultimately people have to make their choices, but that doesn't mean I have to think those choices are wise.

I also think that fiction should try to reflect reality at least somewhat. Yes, they're in a spaceship. They're also supposedly human, and so I think their problems should be like problems real people have. Mental illness should therefore also be like real mental illness, a constant struggle. After what River's been through, can she really find normalcy, does it even fit anymore? Can Mal? I don't know. Life changing events seem to tend to stay that way, otherwise they wouldn't be considered life changing.

While she might not get better from the mental illness if the mental illness is depicted realistically, that does not mean that she can't have a character arc. She can mature in how she copes with issues, faces fears. She can learn how to stand up for herself, and fight back against the people who would terrorize and victimize her.

I actually don't see romance as a good character arc by itself. I really think something else has to be there. For any character. And I also think romance is more appropriate for some characters than for others.

Clearly you see it differently, and I think Joss might even see it your way too. People always seem to suddenly want to hook up popular characters romantically because for some reason that's so important. Jayne and River are the most popular characters, so sometimes it goes a bit further and they get put together.

Quote:

I don't think many are going to right River as completely normal, or even completely sane.


That's something at least. But it does get concerning when Joss and company seem to start writing that.

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 1:22 AM

MARKOMI

Some people juggle geese!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
I don't think River and her scythe can solve any problem. River is very good in combat, but is not bullet proof, nor is she Neo.



No? Because that was, as mentioned, the solution used in the movie and in three of the comics. Like Morse I'm dying for something new!

Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
People always seem to suddenly want to hook up popular characters romantically because for some reason that's so important. Jayne and River are the most popular characters, so sometimes it goes a bit further and they get put together.



I've been wondering why people seem to think these two are a good match! I guess there's a lot of women out there who wants to be River and wants to have Jayne, and use this as a way to live that fantasy. But that simply can't be done without both of them acting out of character, and that is, to quote Riona, boooring for the rest of us. There is simply no umbrella big enough to shield us from the gorram Rayne in this 'verse!

I agree with Byte that some characters work better as loners, just like some people work better as loners. I'm so tired of established relationships being the Answer, the Cure and the Ultimate Goal, in fiction as well as in real life.

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 2:06 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I suppose once again that gets into my views on ethics, responsibility, and doing the least amount of harm when someone can't always trust themselves. As well as questions about vulnerability and taking advantage. Mostly I consider these kinds of romance a very bad idea. Ultimately people have to make their choices, but that doesn't mean I have to think those choices are wise.



People not making the wise choice often makes pretty good stories. It might not be the best idea for River to get involved with someone, but she might. For all her intelligence she is still human and still a teenager. Add in her quirkiness and the fact that she is going to be off in some manor and you may have some very interesting developments.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I also think that fiction should try to reflect reality at least somewhat. Yes, they're in a spaceship. They're also supposedly human, and so I think their problems should be like problems real people have. Mental illness should therefore also be like real mental illness, a constant struggle. After what River's been through, can she really find normalcy, does it even fit anymore? Can Mal? I don't know. Life changing events seem to tend to stay that way, otherwise they wouldn't be considered life changing.

While she might not get better from the mental illness if the mental illness is depicted realistically, that does not mean that she can't have a character arc. She can mature in how she copes with issues, faces fears. She can learn how to stand up for herself, and fight back against the people who would terrorize and victimize her..



Define normalcy. I think normal for River and most of the crew is going to be far different than what we think is normal. In fact that can be part of the character's struggles. How do you raise a family on a ship like Serenity? Do people leave to do that, or stay put. Would River or anyone leave the ship to have a more "normal" life? These are big questions that the characters face.

We may not be very far apart Byte. For me when you talk about River learning to cope with things, and learning to stand up for herself that is what I think about when I talk about her getting better. For a person to do those things some semblance of sanity, or perceived sanity, has to creep in.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I actually don't see romance as a good character arc by itself. I really think something else has to be there. For any character. And I also think romance is more appropriate for some characters than for others.

Clearly you see it differently, and I think Joss might even see it your way too. People always seem to suddenly want to hook up popular characters romantically because for some reason that's so important. Jayne and River are the most popular characters, so sometimes it goes a bit further and they get put together.



By it self no romance is not a good arc. Any type of character arc that focuses on a single aspect is weak.

Many people seem to like Rayne stories. I would not go that way if for nothing else the age difference. If anything other characters can come in and fill that role. Those characters can also leave. Much like how in life people move in and out of each others all the time.


I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 2:08 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by MarKomi:
No? Because that was, as mentioned, the solution used in the movie and in three of the comics. Like Morse I'm dying for something new!



One of the many reason I ignore the comics. Comics...what comics?


I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 4:04 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

For all her intelligence she is still human and still a teenager.


This is the kind of attitude that gets to me. What exactly is it about being human or being a teenager that makes you think that EVERYONE has inclinations for romance?

I have never been involved with anyone, never even had so much as an unrequited infatuation. Do you think I was never a teenager? Do you believe I am not human? You might have your guesses why. But romantic relationships and family are not by any means necessarily a measure of "normalcy."

48% of all high school students have never had sex, despite what television tells you. Reportedly 5% of the global population never have a relationship ever, and the percentage is likely higher, up to 10%, because there are probably people who don't report it because they feel ASHAMED, which is RIDICULOUS. This idea that everyone has someone out there for them is so harmful. People need to stop WORRYING about this nonsense. People are NOT lonely, there's seven billion people on the planet, it's not exactly hard to find some conversation as this board proves, and sex is not THAT important.

So why? There's an assumption here that River needs romance in her life, that it improves her story. Tell me. Why does she need it?

The reason JOSS is changing River is because a sexless River is not appealing to the target demographic, especially because Summer Glau is generally considered so smoking hot. The traumatized femme fatale waif and a man offering comfort is a common fetish. But why should I write her that way? What are the cues in her story that indicate she is bound for romance tropes? As of the series I see none, and I don't think it is a bias, because I do write romance for damaged characters when it's clear they have romance tropes involved with them.

So why River? She's an eerie, supernatural, ass kicking teenager, just this side of absolutely flat out scary, enough so that you're kinda glad she's on the good guy team. What improves by making her mushy-melty over some guy - or girl? She may want "normal," true, but she is NOT normal, she is INTERESTING. And THAT is SO much better.

Eventually I think she'll probably have some romance forced onto her, because like I said, there's only one reason for Joss to have her say "I'm okay" and then handwave everything and say she's all fixed. But that is not a writing choice I would make. Any more than I would have seriously paired up Echo and Ballard and acted as though they were a legitimate and not utterly creepifying couple.

Quote:

How do you raise a family on a ship like Serenity? Do people leave to do that, or stay put.


Zoe's story is already exploring that. No need to revisit.

Quote:

For a person to do those things some semblance of sanity, or perceived sanity, has to creep in.


It really doesn't. What it takes is anger. The crazy can remain. The crazy always remains.

Quote:

I would not go that way if for nothing else the age difference.


You don't like the age difference. The reason that age differences weird people out is because it's an imbalance of power in a relationship.

But with what has happened to River, and the very few options she has, wouldn't any relationship with her technically constitute an imbalance of power? People try to even this out with River's martial arts skills, but that doesn't actually make the problems with the emotional vulnerability on River's side any better. If anything, the fact that River could retaliate with lethal force just makes things exceedingly dangerous for her chosen partner while doing nothing to confirm that the relationship is really good for anyone involved (or even anyone in the vicinity).

Mal is almost as bad, but at least the audience is sure that he's mostly in control of his mental facilities. But River. Even if we show River recovered, if only through sheer force of will, there will always be a question with her, because we've seen her at her most broken. And it's painful to watch.

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 8:03 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
This is the kind of attitude that gets to me. What exactly is it about being human or being a teenager that makes you think that EVERYONE has inclinations for romance?

I have never been involved with anyone, never even had so much as an unrequited infatuation. Do you think I was never a teenager? Do you believe I am not human? You might have your guesses why. But romantic relationships and family are not by any means necessarily a measure of "normalcy."

48% of all high school students have never had sex, despite what television tells you. Reportedly 5% of the global population never have a relationship ever, and the percentage is likely higher, up to 10%, because there are probably people who don't report it because they feel ASHAMED, which is RIDICULOUS. This idea that everyone has someone out there for them is so harmful. People need to stop WORRYING about this nonsense. People are NOT lonely, there's seven billion people on the planet, it's not exactly hard to find some conversation as this board proves, and sex is not THAT important.

So why? There's an assumption here that River needs romance in her life, that it improves her story. Tell me. Why does she need it?

The reason JOSS is changing River is because a sexless River is not appealing to the target demographic, especially because Summer Glau is generally considered so smoking hot. The traumatized femme fatale waif and a man offering comfort is a common fetish. But why should I write her that way? What are the cues in her story that indicate she is bound for romance tropes? As of the series I see none, and I don't think it is a bias, because I do write romance for damaged characters when it's clear they have romance tropes involved with them.



Okay, 10% may never have a relationship. That means 90% will. I never ment to say that you are not human, or that you were never a teenager. In the end this is not about you Byte. For you and many others not having a romantic relationship, or having sex may not be important. For a majority of people it is.

Also, where is Joss changing River to be more sexy, or to have romantic relationships? Did I miss something?

Nothing says you have to write anyone a certain way. Write for yourself.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
So why River? She's an eerie, supernatural, ass kicking teenager, just this side of absolutely flat out scary, enough so that you're kinda glad she's on the good guy team. What improves by making her mushy-melty over some guy - or girl? She may want "normal," true, but she is NOT normal, she is INTERESTING. And THAT is SO much better.

Eventually I think she'll probably have some romance forced onto her, because like I said, there's only one reason for Joss to have her say "I'm okay" and then handwave everything and say she's all fixed. But that is not a writing choice I would make. Any more than I would have seriously paired up Echo and Ballard and acted as though they were a legitimate and not utterly creepifying couple.



Nothing says she has to get into romantic relationships, nothing. She also does not need to to be more interesting. If you don't like that idea don't write it and don't read it.

Thing is if River does become romanticly involved with someone it does not mean she is going to go all mushy. Did Zoe with Wash? She can also be romantic and not be "normal".

I don't know anything about Echo and Ballard so I have no comment.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Zoe's story is already exploring that. No need to revisit.


So far is is exploring...it just has her pregnant. It has hardly explored anything. Not to long ago there was a thread about Zoe raising a child on Serenity. Some made the argument that she would not be a good mother raising a child on a ship as such. Much has yet to be explored and Zoe may not be the only one who wants children.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
It really doesn't. What it takes is anger. The crazy can remain. The crazy always remains.

No it takes more than anger. Anger and crazy always, always turns out bad.

Quote:

You don't like the age difference. The reason that age differences weird people out is because it's an imbalance of power in a relationship.

But with what has happened to River, and the very few options she has, wouldn't any relationship with her technically constitute an imbalance of power? People try to even this out with River's martial arts skills, but that doesn't actually make the problems with the emotional vulnerability on River's side any better. If anything, the fact that River could retaliate with lethal force just makes things exceedingly dangerous for her chosen partner while doing nothing to confirm that the relationship is really good for anyone involved (or even anyone in the vicinity).

Mal is almost as bad, but at least the audience is sure that he's mostly in control of his mental facilities. But River. Even if we show River recovered, if only through sheer force of will, there will always be a question with her, because we've seen her at her most broken. And it's painful to watch.



It would all depend on River's mental state if there was an imbalance of power. We never see anyone really hold much power over River other than her brother. I would argue that is because she trusts him.

Even if that relationship was imbalanced and River is being taken advantaged of that could very well be part of the story.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 8:34 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

For you and many others not having a romantic relationship, or having sex may not be important. For a majority of people it is.


Yes, which is why I said that I understand relationships are meaningful to other people, but that's not what's meaningful to me. And then I explained that what's meaningful to me is people overcoming a problem despite whatever shortcomings they might have.

You just hit a berserk button, sorry about that. Perspectives incompatible. Can not understand other people's view of the world, and they do not understand mine.

Percentages: There are nine people on Serenity. Book is celibate by choice. There could be at least one person who is celibate in general. River seems like she's it. Even Simon and Jayne have dalliances.

Quote:

Did Zoe with Wash?


According to various sources... YES. But it's slowly gotten toned down with her, except in private.

Quote:

She can also be romantic and not be "normal".


But has River even expressed a personal interest in this, that wasn't just to creep out her brother? We had half a year and a movie and there still doesn't seem to be any sign if River having any sort of burgeoning sexuality or showing any romantic interest in anyone.

Quote:

Also, where is Joss changing River to be more sexy, or to have romantic relationships? Did I miss something?


Compare what she wears in the series, ill-fitting hand-me-downs, with the movie, slinky short dresses stopping at mid thigh, and how she is handled in the movie. Then observe Joss fixing her mental instability - as I've said, there's really only one reason to do that. I am resigned at the inevitable march of people who think relationships will solve all of River's problems.

I know you are not necessarily one of them, but it's such a common attitude, simplifying and romanticizing mental illness, looking for a hero to save someone who is troubled, disturbed, depressed. Not thinking maybe they don't WANT to be saved, or want to save themselves.

I can bet you that a number of people on this board have at one point thought that I could benefit from a certain kind of attitude adjustment. I can already guess about five of them. I wouldn't even be surprised if it was basically everyone but me. :/

Quote:

I don't know anything about Echo and Ballard so I have no comment.


I could write a diatribe about why this relationship wasn't nearly as romantic as it was portrayed and why it was majorly creepy, but I won't. Unfortunately there are a lot of parallels with it and with a potential River romance.

Quote:

Zoe raising a child on Serenity. Some made the argument that she would not be a good mother raising a child on a ship as such.


I think that was one I started. I remember getting pretty into it with EB. I think you were there as well.

Quote:

No it takes more than anger. Anger and crazy always, always turns out bad.


Sometimes. Sometimes it also gets things DONE. Just have to know limitations. But if you're you're looking for justice but you aren't angry, then you aren't motivated enough. And if you aren't crazy, may not see the problem in the first place, and definitely not be unstable enough to go out to try to change it. You are, I imagine, familiar with the term "nothing to lose."

Quote:

Even if that relationship was imbalanced and River is being taken advantaged of that could very well be part of the story.



Merciful what of horrors.

YES I know those stories exist, that does not make them GOOD WRITING. Good writing respects the characters. Not fetish material for bestselling authors that don't know the difference between kinky and abusive.

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 9:01 AM

BYTEMITE


You have inspired me, Nick. I am now creating a fanwork, which takes the Twilight series through a word replacement program.

Edward --> Simon
Bella --> River
Jacob --> Jayne

The best part is when Simon chews through her uterus to save River's incest baby.

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 10:18 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Yes, which is why I said that I understand relationships are meaningful to other people, but that's not what's meaningful to me. And then I explained that what's meaningful to me is people overcoming a problem despite whatever shortcomings they might have.

You just hit a berserk button, sorry about that. Perspectives incompatible. Can not understand other people's view of the world, and they do not understand mine.

Percentages: There are nine people on Serenity. Book is celibate by choice. There could be at least one person who is celibate in general. River seems like she's it. Even Simon and Jayne have dalliances.



Many times it is hard to understand anyone else view of the world.

River could choose to be celibate, or not. I really don't see a problem with her being written one way or the other.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
According to various sources... YES. But it's slowly gotten toned down with her, except in private.



What sources? We maybe misunderstanding each other here. Even in the private scenes with Zoe and Wash I would not call her mushy. Yes her guard is down, but that is how relationships work. See when you say you don't want to see River get all mushy over a guy, I'm thinking more bobble head cheerleader going after the football hero type act.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
But has River even expressed a personal interest in this, that wasn't just to creep out her brother? We had half a year and a movie and there still doesn't seem to be any sign if River having any sort of burgeoning sexuality or showing any romantic interest in anyone.



When has she had a chance? It's not like she would start developing romantic feels towards Jayne or anyone else on the crew just because they are the only ones around. Most of the time she stays hidden on the ship. She does not get a lot of chances to meet new folks.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Compare what she wears in the series, ill-fitting hand-me-downs, with the movie, slinky short dresses stopping at mid thigh, and how she is handled in the movie. Then observe Joss fixing her mental instability - as I've said, there's really only one reason to do that. I am resigned at the inevitable march of people who think relationships will solve all of River's problems.



I really hope there is not that march. Relationships will not solve Rivers problems, they would most likely make more.

I give you the point about what River wears, but remember she is introduced to us buck ass naked. Plus has Jayne make a crude joke about her later on. I do think there is more than one reason to have River be more stable. If nothing else it can make her more a part of the crew and not just the crazy girl who they bring out to kick ass.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I know you are not necessarily one of them, but it's such a common attitude, simplifying and romanticizing mental illness, looking for a hero to save someone who is troubled, disturbed, depressed. Not thinking maybe they don't WANT to be saved, or want to save themselves.

I can bet you that a number of people on this board have at one point thought that I could benefit from a certain kind of attitude adjustment. I can already guess about five of them. I wouldn't even be surprised if it was basically everyone but me. :/



Thank you for not necessarily thinking that I'm one of them, and fuck the people who think you need an attitude adjustment. I may not agree with you, but I think you put enough thought into what you say to consider it. Heck I changed that one chapter in my story because in the end I think you were right about how the girls where talking. I hope you will re-read it at some point if you have not already. You should know that I also real enjoy these discussions with you.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I could write a diatribe about why this relationship wasn't nearly as romantic as it was portrayed and why it was majorly creepy, but I won't. Unfortunately there are a lot of parallels with it and with a potential River romance.



Sometimes creepy is interesting. As I said Rayne stories are not my thing, but in a similar vein I did like The Professional.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I think that was one I started. I remember getting pretty into it with EB. I think you were there as well.



I think it was on you started. It raised very good points. I think that Zoe's situation might be different than say if Kaylee got pregnant. Zoe may not have much of a choice but to stay on the ship. Kaylee and Simon could arguably carve out a living on some planet...depending on if Simon is still a fugitive.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Sometimes. Sometimes it also gets things DONE. Just have to know limitations. But if you're you're looking for justice but you aren't angry, then you aren't motivated enough. And if you aren't crazy, may not see the problem in the first place, and definitely not be unstable enough to go out to try to change it. You are, I imagine, familiar with the term "nothing to lose."



I would say that knowing one's limitations is a big part of sanity. I am familiar with that term. I think it does not truly apply to many people. Most have something to lose, if nothing else themselves.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Merciful what of horrors.

YES I know those stories exist, that does not make them GOOD WRITING. Good writing respects the characters. Not fetish material for bestselling authors that don't know the difference between kinky and abusive.



I was thinking more taken advantage of mentally and emotionally. Yes a writer has to respect the character, but that does not mean they can't hurt them.



I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 10:18 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
You have inspired me, Nick. I am now creating a fanwork, which takes the Twilight series through a word replacement program.

Edward --> Simon
Bella --> River
Jacob --> Jayne

The best part is when Simon chews through her uterus to save River's incest baby.



:)

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 10:44 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

What sources? We maybe misunderstanding each other here.


Mal talks about how Wash and Zoe got together in the Serenity RP manual. First there was a lot of yelling. Then Zoe starts getting all MOON-EYED over Wash, Mal indicates that it was fairly nauseating, though it's possible he's exaggerating because he disapproved. Then he says that getting married set it right again, and they were back to throwing chinese cuss-words at each other, and that marriage is the best cure for romance he's ever seen.

Possibly unreliable narrator, but, I think it sounds like there's some grain of truth in there.

Quote:

See when you say you don't want to see River get all mushy over a guy, I'm thinking more bobble head cheerleader going after the football hero type act.


And I'm thinking saccharine PET NAMES. *shudder* I pray to everything holy that River does not decide to have a long range relationship and subject us to endless "No, YOU hang up!"

Mal would shoot the Cortex source box. :| And they NEED that.

Quote:

Most of the time she stays hidden on the ship. She does not get a lot of chances to meet new folks.



You see that changing any time soon? *skeptical*

People are SCARY, and their minds are even SCARIER.

Quote:

If nothing else it can make her more a part of the crew


She already is that. Doesn't need to be stable for that.

Quote:

Heck I changed that one chapter in my story because in the end I think you were right about how the girls where talking.


Oh. I remember that story. Thank you for thinking of me. I can be wrong.

Quote:

The Professional.


Might have heard of it. Oh, that's right. Natalie Portman character. Underaged Assassin. Romantic interest in person training her. Former relateable. Later kinda skeevy.

Quote:

I think that Zoe's situation might be different than say if Kaylee got pregnant. Zoe may not have much of a choice but to stay on the ship. Kaylee and Simon could arguably carve out a living on some planet...depending on if Simon is still a fugitive.


I'm willing to read about crew offspring in fanfic, but I hope Joss kind of draws the line at Zoe in the canon series. Only really need to see it once to get the idea.

Quote:

that does not mean they can't hurt them.


Yeah, and I hurt the characters a lot myself, but this is getting into something else entirely. Listen, friendly advice - you probably wouldn't ever write a story like this. But on the internet, people tend to react BADLY to this kind of thing. Like seriously, this is a pandora's box sorta scenario.

I once brought up a question about if Kaylee or Inara have ever been raped on another board because of how Kaylee reacts to Early's threats and because Inara's clients are sometimes abusive so it's not exactly a stretch. Honestly I knew better than to ask at the time, but I was still curious. Whooooo boy the flames. It's some bad mojo.

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 11:19 AM

DEATHPAIN


Why is it that people think that at the end of the movie River's mental stability was fixed ? River always had moments where she had moments of clarity. Ok getting the whole Miranda thing off her mind probably helped alot but she is by no means fixed now. She would still have moments where she wasnt quite with what was going on around her.

Also the whole idea that she never expressed any interest in romance seems a bit off to me. I got the feeling she was interested in the concept of how it made people feel so good, in the few moments where she was watching others together. Ok I dont think she totally understands the concept of relationships, but she sure is curious about it all.

She would in my mind eventually want to try the whole relationship thing, but im sure it wouldnt be simple and probably would go horribly wrong when she said something totally inaproriate which freaked the other guy out, and not having a clue she did anything wrong.

With all that in mind, its just not going to happen where she will save the day all the time. Maybe at times she will, but also equally she will do many things wrong and end up being confused to why people are shouting at her for.

Anyway thats my opinion on how things would of worked out for one of if not my faviourate char in the show.

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 11:22 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
You have inspired me, Nick. I am now creating a fanwork, which takes the Twilight series through a word replacement program.

Edward --> Simon
Bella --> River
Jacob --> Jayne

The best part is when Simon chews through her uterus to save River's incest baby.



:)




Sorry, little bit of worst case scenario on that one, I know it's not what you were arguing.

But where it's really bad with Simon and Jayne, I can't help thinking it might be pretty bad still with someone else.

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 11:25 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Mal talks about how Wash and Zoe got together in the Serenity RP manual. First there was a lot of yelling. Then Zoe starts getting all MOON-EYED over Wash, Mal indicates that it was fairly nauseating, though it's possible he's exaggerating because he disapproved. Then he says that getting married set it right again, and they were back to throwing chinese cuss-words at each other, and that marriage is the best cure for romance he's ever seen.

Possibly unreliable narrator, but, I think it sounds like there's some grain of truth in there.



Doesn't sound like Zoe to me. Of course if it is Mal talking all she would have to do is smile about Wash and Mal might call it moon-eyed. I'll take the RP manual with a very, very large grain of salt.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
And I'm thinking saccharine PET NAMES. *shudder* I pray to everything holy that River does not decide to have a long range relationship and subject us to endless "No, YOU hang up!"

Mal would shoot the Cortex source box. :| And they NEED that.



Mal shooting the box would be funny but if someone wrote River like that I may want to shoot them.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
You see that changing any time soon? *skeptical*

People are SCARY, and their minds are even SCARIER.



I could. River seemed to do fine on the space station in The Message. I could see her being out and about more. I don't think large crowds of people would be her favorite place, but it may work.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
She already is that. Doesn't need to be stable for that.


She was at the end of Objects, not so much at the begining of the movie. At the end you can see as more a part of the crew, at least I can. Those few times have in common that fact that she is acting more stable.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Oh. I remember that story. Thank you for thinking of me. I can be wrong.

You're welcome. You were not wrong that time. The more I looked at that section the more I did not like it. I changed it.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Might have heard of it. Oh, that's right. Natalie Portman character. Underaged Assassin. Romantic interest in person training her. Former relateable. Later kinda skeevy.



Yup. As uncomfortable as it was having a 14 year old girl ask a much older man to have sex with her it was understandable and helped define that characters.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I'm willing to read about crew offspring in fanfic, but I hope Joss kind of draws the line at Zoe in the canon series. Only really need to see it once to get the idea.



The problem with that is if we get more series, which I'm at this point hoping against, you can only have keep that from happening for so long. You get the Star Trek sydrome were no one or moves to a differnet step in life for many years.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Yeah, and I hurt the characters a lot myself, but this is getting into something else entirely. Listen, friendly advice - you probably wouldn't ever write a story like this. But on the internet, people tend to react BADLY to this kind of thing. Like seriously, this is a pandora's box sorta scenario.

I once brought up a question about if Kaylee or Inara have ever been raped on another board because of how Kaylee reacts to Early's threats and because Inara's clients are sometimes abusive so it's not exactly a stretch. Whooooo boy the flames. It's some bad mojo.



Fuck the internet!

That being said, I don't have any plans on having anyone get raped in my stories. I would nto be afread to write it. I try very hard to write for myself before anyone else.



I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 11:27 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Sorry, little bit of worst case scenario on that one, I know it's not what you were arguing.

But where it's really bad with Simon and Jayne, I can't help thinking it might be pretty bad still with someone else.



It could be, or it could be pretty good. If River become Bella I'd be out.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, August 15, 2012 11:28 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Why is it that people think that at the end of the movie River's mental stability was fixed ?


I don't like it, but well, it's just something Joss said at comic con, I'm pretty sure now that's really what he was intending.

Quote:

few moments where she was watching others together.


I don't think she actually likes it. In the comics once after Zoe and Wash were at it but had to call everyone to the bridge, River complains that it stinks like sex in there.

And in that case, her interactions with Simon (and watching at the end of the movie) seem to just become her trying to creep him out.

Other people can interpret what they want, but what I see seems to be a very negative, mocking attitude about it from River. "Everyone has a mate, a dopple, I love you" to Simon after Mal marries Saffron anyone? She treats it like a joke. Definitely she doesn't show interest in trying it out for herself, or experimenting with anyone on the ship. And she doesn't go off to flirt with boys or girls while they're planetside, a few of the times when she's allowed to wander around town. She dances by herself in Safe. She just doesn't strike me as that interested.

But Joss is probably going to change that, because River relationships sell.

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