GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Zoë Warren: Most Mysterious Character?

POSTED BY: ZOID
UPDATED: Friday, May 21, 2004 10:31
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Monday, May 17, 2004 7:19 AM

ZOID


Fellow Browncoats:

Good morning. It's Monday, the first day of my 'weekend' and for most of you, the first day back at the grindstone. I hope it goes tolerably.

As I reflect on Firefly -- something I do a lot, obviously -- it occurs to me that perhaps the greatest mystery of the show is the one not readily apparent as a mystery. I'm talking about the motivations and history of the show's one steadfast character, Zoë Warren. I get the feeling that Joss might possibly be pulling a little sleight-of-hand here. Please allow me to digress slightly, in order to illuminate my assertion.

My father, when I was a lad, used to 'rassle' around with me, much to my childish delight. He'd get on his knees to equalize our heights and then 'slap-box' spar with me, ostensibly just playfully; but those lessons a father teaches a son invariably prove useful in real-life situations later. While it may seem like I'm meandering a bit, here's the point: He'd strike a fighting stance, then say, "You see this hand? You see this hand?" bluffing with his right; then he'd sneak in with his left, delivering a light tap to my cheek and say, "This is the one you've gotta watch out for."

So maybe, by showing us all those other gravid mysteries of Book and River, Blue Hands and Reavers, Joss is saying, "See this hand?". What if Zoë -- seemingly the least mysterious character on the show -- is the "one you've gotta watch out for"?

People have noted the ostensible wardrobe mistake of having Zoë wearing the 'wedding necklace' prior to having met Wash. Is it possible that it was not a mistake at all? Perhaps she was married and widowed previously, still wearing the necklace from mourning, or from a desire to avoid unwelcome advances. Back in the day, I knew lots of women who -- though unmarried -- bought a wedding ring to wear to clubs so they could drink in peace with their friends (pick-up lines are the most disgraceful things about the average male, not so?). I've also been giving some thought that the necklace may symbolize a different form of bondage than marriage, and that her continued wearing of it is a symbol of her hard-won freedom from that bondage. But it's probably just a silly notion of mine; there's certainly no evidence to support.

There's more to the 'Zoë Mystery'. Why is she so faithful to Mal? We may reasonably presume that the horrendous circumstances of the Battle of Serenity Valley have formed a bond between them. But what was the crystalizing event that made them inseparable? Many men at arms have been through the fire together, but few will form so strong or lasting a bond. Whatever that critical event was, how will it affect future actions, and ultimately the outcome of the series?

We are given glimpses of most of the other characters earlier homes or formative years. We know Mal was reared on Shadow, on a large cattle ranch. We know Wash's original home was a place so smoggy (cough, Los Angeles, cough) that he became a pilot just to see the stars. We know that River and Simon grew up in affluent surroundings on a hospitable planet. Conversely, we know that Jayne was brought up poor and rough on some backwater chunk of matter. We know Kaylee grew up on a similar backwater, the mechanic daughter of a mechanic. We may reasonably assume that Inara was initiated on Sihnon at a very young age, being educated in Guild schools until she came of age (in the Firefly 'verse what, 12?) and then became a sexual servant exclusively to the rich and powerful of society (ponder on this, if you will). We know virtually nothing of substance about Book's formative years, because that's his mystery ("See this hand?").

With Zoë however, why do we know nothing more about her childhood/formative years? Joss seems to have gone out of his way to deliver evidence of even Jayne's and Wash's; why not Zoë's, if everything's on the up-and-up? I've got some suspicions, but no proof, so I'll not further enumerate them, for now. But that's precisely what I'm talking about: Zoë is a mystery with no clues whatsoever. Perhaps there's nothing mysterious to tell. If so, why the conspicuous silence on any details of her past?

Could it be that Zoë's mystery is the most startling of them all? I think only Joss knows, at this point; that it has repercussions not only in Zoë's actions, but perhaps in some of Mal's predilections, as well, if you catch my drift... In the words of my father, "This is the one you've gotta watch out for." Perhaps.


Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"History may say I saved River; but it's not like that. No, that's not it at all. I saved my sister."

- Simon Tam, M.D., husband and father of 4, Jiangyin; from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Monday, May 17, 2004 8:34 AM

ASTRIANA


You might not be wrong, Zoid. I'd like to add a little something off the cuff, since I only have a moment. Wonder if the black corded necklace isn't necessarily a marriage thing at all, but a reminder of her experiences in the war? Aside from the bed-time scenes with Wash, the only time we ever see her without it - including pre-Wash - is during the war itself, when she's wearing the red neckerchief that seems to have been part of the Independent uniform... something constricting around the neck...

Hmmm...

~A~
El Jefe Magnifico's Mistress... of Communications and Harems...

...I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me.

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Monday, May 17, 2004 9:40 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Very interesting point Zoid. I had wondered several times why we have absolutely no backstory on Zoe. Sure we know she has been w/ Mal since the beginning of the War, or possibly earlier. Their bond transcends a war buddy relationship or even a friendship. What exactly is it that binds these two together so closely? What would make Zoe so loyal to Mal that it causes problems in her marriage (War Stories).

I am not sure that Joss is trying to pull a fast one though by trying to distract us w/ River's & Book's mysterious pasts. I think that River and what was done to her is pivotal to the Firefly story. Book is an enigma. I think that Zoe is supposed to be that strong silent type who has that past she doesn't talk about because she either doesn't want to or doesn't need to.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Monday, May 17, 2004 10:06 AM

PRETENTIOUS


I don't know if lines cut from scripts are considered canon or not but in the Heart of Gold script there is a clue to Zoe's past that got cut.

It's the end of the arguement/discussion she and Wash are having about a baby.


WASH
And this beautiful baby of ours, you
don't mind that it's going to grow up
on a spaceship?

ZOE
Worked fine for me.

I've always found it interesting that Zoe grew up on a ship and ended up fighting for the independents. Seems to me most people who weren't tied to a planet would consider themselves somewhat above and beyond concern over the war....

Anyway, don't know if it's canon but it does give some background to Zoe.

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Monday, May 17, 2004 10:09 AM

SARAHETC


Wonderful Zoe questions. The surprise-left theory is very juicy.

Some thoughts: "Warren" isn't canon, that I know of, and I pay really close attention to all things Wash and Zoe. Somebody put it up on the IMDB over a year ago and now that's a reference, when there's no show/script reference that confirms it. Same for Jerry Lee (tricky!) and Washburn. Nathan Fillion referenced "Washburn" and I'm inclined to believe him, but he specifically left out whether or not it was a first or last name. I'm not saying it won't come to pass that Warren is the name of names, but it's not canon now and I'm irrationally vehement about it.

I'm also inclined to agree with Astriana about the necklace, with one caveat: she tranfered meanings as part of transfering her loyalty. It was a symbol she chose before or during the war, that meant loyalty for her. As she transferred that loyalty from one thing to another, she changed the meaning of the necklace. I can see her telling Wash "this is an important symbol to me. I have had it for a long time. And now it is significant because I say it binds me to you." It's a little like wearing your grandmother's wedding band or something-- it's not specifically for you, but you imbue (dun dun dun) the item with your meaning.

I think the critical event is the war and specifially, the Battle of Serenity. If Mal were commanding some vast number at the start and down to just the hundreds by the time they were rescued, I'd think it would be instinctual level coping that would keep Zoe loyal to him. I know that's not a precise enough answer. Don't you just ache to see the scene specifically-- with all the blood and gore and tears and heart? I do.

As for where she's from-- she's from space. I think that that is so interesting about her. Even though we don't know what ship, where, when or anything, she claims she grew up fine on a space ship. Which could, not coincidentally, be one of the reasons she stays with Mal-- he seems very up front about getting a ship and getting out into the black. Perhaps, among other things, she sees sticking with him as an opportunity to be a spacer again.

I'm going to keep thinking about her being the one they'd need to watch out for. My first reaction is gut, like, 'naw, Zoe doesn't play.' But then little molecules of doubt creep in; she's quiet and deadly.

Very excellent thread.

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

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Monday, May 17, 2004 12:03 PM

ZOID


pretentious wrote:
Quote:

I don't know if lines cut from scripts are considered canon or not but in the Heart of Gold script there is a clue to Zoe's past that got cut.

It's the end of the arguement/discussion she and Wash are having about a baby.


WASH
And this beautiful baby of ours, you
don't mind that it's going to grow up
on a spaceship?

ZOE
Worked fine for me.

I've always found it interesting that Zoe grew up on a ship and ended up fighting for the independents. Seems to me most people who weren't tied to a planet would consider themselves somewhat above and beyond concern over the war....

Anyway, don't know if it's canon but it does give some background to Zoe.


I think script lines that have been deleted should probably not be considered canon -- strictly because JW specifically deleted them. What are the possible reasons for their deletion? 1.) They were inaccurate/false for the character; 2.) They were too accurate and gave away too much of the big story arc before JW was ready to do so; 3.) They were too long to put in the episode and so were cut.

Without going into my usual needless, long-winded detail, if you consider a deleted line canonical, you stand serious risk of misleading yourself, when JW warned you away from that danger by cutting the line.

It is, however, slightly less dangerous (and ergo, more fun) to consider the line a clue. The problem is, what kind of ship did Zoë grow up on, presuming JW didn't cut the line simply because it was wrong? Was it a luxury liner? A cruiser like Dortmunder? A cargo ship? ...A slaver?

Just telling us she grew up on a ship is similar to telling us she grew up on a planet, without giving any more detail. We may safely assume that everyone -- including us -- grew up somewhere. The circumstances of that 'somewhere' are the bits that are missing from Zoë's story. We've pretty much got those details on everybody else, except in those cases wherein the characters' 'mysteries' preclude us from knowing the details (Book and to a lesser extent Inara).

All of which brings me back to the suspicion that Zoë -- even though she seems the least mysterious of all the Firefly characters -- has a mystery as well, and because it's so meticulously concealed, that it may be the most (startling/heart-rending/shocking/gruesome?) of them all. Then again, maybe there is no mystery, and it's all just a figment of my overactive imagination, huh? Maybe Joss just ran out of things to do and thought, "Hmmm, I really need a ninth character, eight just aren't enough. I know, I'll just kludge a totally one-dimensional cardboard character on, since I'm so tired of writing meaningful and involved relationships."

Ohhh, my droogies... I don't think so.


Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"History may say I saved River; but it's not like that. No, that's not it at all. I saved my sister."

- Simon Tam, M.D., husband and father of 4, Jiangyin; from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Monday, May 17, 2004 12:16 PM

GUNHAND


I'm leaning in the direction that Zoe and the growing up on the ship line was cut because Joss changed his mind about her growing up on a ship. I have a few reasons for this, some of them actually make a little sense. This is just one of them because I'm starving so gonna cook supper, but is the most sensical one.

If Zoe grew up on a ship then what's she doing as an Infantry Private in the Independents army? By growing up on a ship, be it a smuggling ship, Alliance Cruiser, what have you she'd know a fair bit about shipboard systems even if she was never formally trained on them. She's not stupid and she seems inquisitive enough to have picked up some shipboard information if she grew up on one. Now would that make her a pilot? Not necessarily but if the Browncoats had a Navy then she'd be a prime recruit for being in it based on her background.

Now of course we've never seen direct evidence of a Browncoat Navy but there had to be one. Otherwise the War wouldn't have lasted 5 years. The South didn't have much of a Navy in the Civil Wat and they lasted 5 years, but they also didn't have to worry about airmobile attacks, space to ground bombardments, air power, etc. If the Independents didn't have a Navy at all the War would have lasted just as long as it took to move Alliance divisions from one planet to another and crush them in turn, at their leisure.

Durning the Civil War, hell even during WWII if someone came from a sea background the Navy wanted them, they simply took to the training better even if they weren't a full fledged crewman of a ship. Doubt the 'Verse would be any different.



~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"

My eerie-ass website:
http://gunhandsfirefly.homestead.com/Index.html

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Monday, May 17, 2004 12:39 PM

FIREFLYJACK


Maybe Zoe is the reason Mal aquired Serenity. If she did grow up on board a ship Zoe would probably have told Mal all about it while they as they waited for another battle to start or counted the cost of one just fought. her reminising about the freedom of space might have been what hooked Mal on the idea.

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Monday, May 17, 2004 3:11 PM

MISSAYATAM


Did anyone else notice how much Zoe knows about medicine? In Ariel she doesn't have to look at her arm while Mal does when they are stealing from the alliance hospital. Also, in Objects in space she takes the bullet out of simons leg with no difficulties even though simon told her what to do. Even in Serenity she is the one to speak up and say they are delivering plasma and other medical supplies to whitefall. She just seems to know more than the average person about medicine. I just found this to be odd.

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Monday, May 17, 2004 3:24 PM

GUNHAND


As far as her medical skills I think that's basically what she picked up during the War. She and Mal are the only survivors of their platoon and during the time all those folks were being shot she'd have been in close contact with wounds and know the basics of treating them.

As far as surgery, yeah she needed Simon to help her with that, but for common, non-lifethreatening wounds she'd be able to manage fine I reckon with just her War experience.

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"

My eerie-ass website:
http://gunhandsfirefly.homestead.com/Index.html

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Monday, May 17, 2004 5:20 PM

DARKARCHON


Gotta go with Gunhand on the medical skills theory. Experience is the best teacher as they say and war provides plenty of experience with wounds. Also, since we know nothing of her past really, who's to say that she isn't 'burdened with an overabundance of schooling'. She may have grown up around learned folk and been priveledged with a formal education, which seems to be rare in the future 'verse. As has been pointed out, she is/seems rather intellingent and has no problem using her powers of reasoning to bringing Mal back down to 'earth' when needed.

The truth is, we may never know enough to satisfy our curiousity, but we can hope the Joss will show us a little more in the movie(s) since it looks like he will be limited to that format for telling his beloved story (unless they make comics or graphic novels or the like). Guess we'll have to wait and see.

"Possibly you're not recalling some of the captains previous plans."

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Tuesday, May 18, 2004 5:39 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:

Originally posted by Sarahetc:
Wonderful Zoe questions. The surprise-left theory is very juicy.

Some thoughts: "Warren" isn't canon, that I know of, and I pay really close attention to all things Wash and Zoe. Somebody put it up on the IMDB over a year ago and now that's a reference, when there's no show/script reference that confirms it. Same for Jerry Lee (tricky!) and Washburn. Nathan Fillion referenced "Washburn" and I'm inclined to believe him, but he specifically left out whether or not it was a first or last name. I'm not saying it won't come to pass that Warren is the name of names, but it's not canon now and I'm irrationally vehement about it.

I'm also inclined to agree with Astriana about the necklace, with one caveat: she tranfered meanings as part of transfering her loyalty. It was a symbol she chose before or during the war, that meant loyalty for her. As she transferred that loyalty from one thing to another, she changed the meaning of the necklace. I can see her telling Wash "this is an important symbol to me. I have had it for a long time. And now it is significant because I say it binds me to you." It's a little like wearing your grandmother's wedding band or something-- it's not specifically for you, but you imbue (dun dun dun) the item with your meaning.

I think the critical event is the war and specifially, the Battle of Serenity. If Mal were commanding some vast number at the start and down to just the hundreds by the time they were rescued, I'd think it would be instinctual level coping that would keep Zoe loyal to him. I know that's not a precise enough answer. Don't you just ache to see the scene specifically-- with all the blood and gore and tears and heart? I do.

As for where she's from-- she's from space. I think that that is so interesting about her. Even though we don't know what ship, where, when or anything, she claims she grew up fine on a space ship. Which could, not coincidentally, be one of the reasons she stays with Mal-- he seems very up front about getting a ship and getting out into the black. Perhaps, among other things, she sees sticking with him as an opportunity to be a spacer again.

I'm going to keep thinking about her being the one they'd need to watch out for. My first reaction is gut, like, 'naw, Zoe doesn't play.' But then little molecules of doubt creep in; she's quiet and deadly.

Very excellent thread.

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case



Glad to see you post Sarahetc. It is has been awhile since I saw a post from you & was wondering where you had gotten to.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Tuesday, May 18, 2004 5:49 AM

SARAHETC


Quote:

Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
Quote:

Originally posted by Sarahetc:
Wonderful Zoe questions. The surprise-left theory is very juicy.

Glad to see you post Sarahetc. It is has been awhile since I saw a post from you & was wondering where you had gotten to.




Hey, thanks. I still read every day, but I don't have much to add to most threads lately. And I'm of the "if you can't say anything interesting, don't say anything at all" school of posting.

I've thought some more about Zoe and what I can come up with is that the war has been the most significant event of her life. It now informs even what happened before the war.

At the same time, I can't get over the honest, loyal and straightforward hurdle. Like I said before, the "surprise left" theory is super juicy and fun to think about, but it seems contrary to her fundamental Zoe-ness that she would perpetrate anything against Mal. That does not take into consideration any traumatic events that might happen in the future, but at this point, she's Zoe. I think we don't know much about her because she doesn't want us to know much about her.

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

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Tuesday, May 18, 2004 6:29 AM

CYBERSNARK


As a "grown up on a ship" datapoint: note how impressed Zoe was with Wash's piloting ("That's my man") when they went back to rescue Mal from Niska.

Now, on one hand, she knows more about flying than, say, Jayne (to know how impressive it is what Wash was doing). OTOH, she doesn't seem so familiar with it that she'd be jaded.

And in OiS, remember how flustered she was (for her) when digging the bullet out of Simon. She wasn't entirely sure of her surgical skills. Something about being more experienced at puttin' them into people.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Tuesday, May 18, 2004 6:53 AM

ZOID



Cybersnark, et al:

Der 'snark wrote:
Quote:

As a "grown up on a ship" datapoint: note how impressed Zoe was with Wash's piloting ("That's my man") when they went back to rescue Mal from Niska.

Now, on one hand, she knows more about flying than, say, Jayne (to know how impressive it is what Wash was doing). OTOH, she doesn't seem so familiar with it that she'd be jaded.


Dude/ette (sorry, there are no hints on your Member Profile page), you totally reminded me of something! Who flies the shuttle when Mal rendezvouses (checked that one with Merriam-Webster) with shady types at 'the corner of No and Where'? Zoë does. She's a pilot. Remember in "War Stories" Wash mangles the shuttle's launch sequence so Zoë can't access it.

Here endeth the interruption...

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"History may say I saved River; but it's not like that. No, that's not it at all. I saved my sister."

- Simon Tam, M.D., husband and father of 4, Jiangyin; from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Tuesday, May 18, 2004 9:28 AM

SKYDANCE


On the subject of Zoe being a pilot ...

At the end of Serenity (the Pilot), Mal takes over the helm after Wash gets them out of the atmosphere. Mal even flicks some switches & generally makes it look like he's doing more than babysitting.

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Tuesday, May 18, 2004 9:59 AM

GUNHAND


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:

Cybersnark, et al:

Der 'snark wrote:
Quote:

As a "grown up on a ship" datapoint: note how impressed Zoe was with Wash's piloting ("That's my man") when they went back to rescue Mal from Niska.

Now, on one hand, she knows more about flying than, say, Jayne (to know how impressive it is what Wash was doing). OTOH, she doesn't seem so familiar with it that she'd be jaded.


Dude/ette (sorry, there are no hints on your Member Profile page), you totally reminded me of something! Who flies the shuttle when Mal rendezvouses (checked that one with Merriam-Webster) with shady types at 'the corner of No and Where'? Zoë does. She's a pilot. Remember in "War Stories" Wash mangles the shuttle's launch sequence so Zoë can't access it.

Here endeth the interruption...

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"History may say I saved River; but it's not like that. No, that's not it at all. I saved my sister."

- Simon Tam, M.D., husband and father of 4, Jiangyin; from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard



Hello Zoid...

True she does fly a shuttle, but so does Inara and Mal. I think shuttle flying is a mite bit different than flying something like Serenity So all of them are pilots...kinda, but not Pilots like Wash is.

Mal does do Captainy flicking of switches too, and in Out of Gas he's the one that diverts the fire out of the airlock and all. And as stated takes over a bit. But I think that's more "Captain read the manual" than actual skill at piloting the thing. Give me a manual and in theory I could fly a B-52, but just basic things, I couldn't do anything fancy, wouldn't remember right off the top of my head what all the switches did, and wouldn't know what to do in an emergency by instinct. So Mal's a 'kinda pilot' and may even have more book knowledge of it that Zoe in fact.

Speaking of Book, he knows where the engine subsystems are in Serenity and also in The Message he does a pretty good job of running scans of the planet to find the Alliance base and spectrum band analysis to tell that Womack hasn't sent any messages. I'd be very interested to see what would happen if there was some sort of emergency that needed some fancy flying with Wash incapacitated. My money is on Book being the man to do it...



~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"

My eerie-ass website:
http://gunhandsfirefly.homestead.com/Index.html

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Tuesday, May 18, 2004 11:17 AM

ZOID



Gunny wrote, amongst other things:
Quote:

True she does fly a shuttle, but so does Inara and Mal.

I don't think there's much evidence that Mal does fly a shuttle. In "War Stories", he clearly expects Zoë to fly the shuttle, and he does not threaten to fly it himself. He tells Zoë and Wash to figure out which of them is going to pilot to the rendezvous, so they can get going.

The only time I remember Mal acting like he was going to do something operator-like with a shuttle was when he started the preflight on Inara's bird in OoG; whereupon she promptly pushes him aside and says, "You never did know how to run this thing." As far as Mal taking the console while Zoë and Wash head back for some 'R&R', looks to me like it was already on autopilot (he stows the flight yoke) and all he was doing was stationkeeping -- you know, watching the dials, listening for alarms, that sort of thing. ...Kinda like the old NASA joke that ends with the punchline, "Feed the monkey".

Since the hard part of flying is -- by consensus -- takeoffs and particularly landings, I'd say that atmospheric shuttle piloting is fairly tricky indeed (though not as hard as dodging in and out of canyons in something as big as a cargo ship). We don't really know what Book can do, but Zoë and Inara must be pretty good at handling a stick (everyone out of the gutter, please). I suspect Inara's Guild training includes operating air- and spacecraft, in addition to hand-to-hand combat (evidenced in OMR), melee weapons (evidenced in "Shindig") and using sexual skills in order to incapacitate/poison targets (again, OMR). I'd bet good money she's a crack shot with a bow and long-range target rifle, too. *Ker-she's-an-assassin-chooo!* Gesundheit to myself! (Sniffle)...and she plays a wicked game of pub darts.

As regards Zoë's mysterious past, where would a groundling grunt pick up piloting skills? With the exception of a single deleted line, we have no clues. But to reiterate the focal point of the thread, what is Joss hiding in this character, while distracting us with Inara's, Book's and River's all-too-apparent mysteries? I don't think it's anything sinister, quite the contrary; but, I definitely get the sneaking suspicion that JW's got something 'in the hole' on this one, and that it'll absolutely knock our heads off.


Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"History may say I saved River; but it's not like that. No, that's not it at all. I saved my sister."

- Simon Tam, M.D., husband and father of 4, Jiangyin; from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Tuesday, May 18, 2004 11:32 AM

GUNHAND


Good points again, as always Zoid.

Almost forgot. Hello Zoid...

Mal does fly a shuttle though in Trash, when he and YoSaffBridge leave Serenity to go to the floaty island he's the one flying it not her.

As to where Zoe learned to fly a shuttle, that's something we really don't know. But since most guys like sharing their interests with their significant other I'm willing to assume that Wash probably showed her a few things, and if she showed any interest at all he probably gave her a full blown unofficial flight school. Zoe's a smart cookie, as a matter of fact in sheer smarts she's probably the smartest of the actual crew, discounting the "passengers" which include Mr. 3% and his Math Using Sister here.

I'm not sure Zoe actually needs a mysterious past, she's kind of like the ship's rock. When Mal comes up with a stupid idea who's the one to tell him it's stupid? Zoe. And Mal listens to her. She's the sounding board and for lack of a term that really fits the "straight (wo)man" of the bunch. She can tell Jayne to stand down and he does. She can tell Wash to come back from the funny place and he does. And she's the one that glares when anyone does something to Kaylee. When someone needs to know something important about Reavers or the War or Griswalds who does the exposition? Zoe.



~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"

My eerie-ass website:
http://gunhandsfirefly.homestead.com/Index.html

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Tuesday, May 18, 2004 12:23 PM

ZOID



Gunhand wrote:
Quote:

Mal does fly a shuttle though in Trash, when he and YoSaffBridge leave Serenity to go to the floaty island he's the one flying it not her.


Yep, yer right. QED.

So, you're thinking the reason there's no smoke with Zoë is because there's no fire? Care to go on the record with that opinion? I would challenge you to a wager, but it'd be like stealing.

Problem is, unless there's a return to series television, I doubt we'll ever find out even over the course of three BDMs. The only person(s) that know(s) at this point are/is JW and possibly TM.

BTW, if JW/TM would like me to cease and desist with all my speculating, all they gotta do is email me a copy of 'The Big Book' of Firefly they're sitting on, along with a non-disclosure agreement. I'll promptly sign it in blood and then drop off of FFFn without a trace... ;)


Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"History may say I saved River; but it's not like that. No, that's not it at all. I saved my sister."

- Simon Tam, M.D., husband and father of 4, Jiangyin; from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Tuesday, May 18, 2004 1:31 PM

ANNIK


Is Warren Zoe's last name, or Wash's? If Wash's, then he would be Wash Warren. (Wash and Worn).

Wacky fun.

Cheers,
Annik
... my sister's a ship. We had a complicated childhood.

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Tuesday, May 18, 2004 4:13 PM

WHOODAHN


Quote:


Speaking of Book, he knows where the engine subsystems are in Serenity and also in The Message he does a pretty good job of running scans of the planet to find the Alliance base and spectrum band analysis to tell that Womack hasn't sent any messages.



I always though that scene was very telling about Book's past. While the rest of the crew is wondering if they are going to get bombed, Book is running scans. He is very cool in a fire fight.



"I ain't crazy and I've got papers to prove it"

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Tuesday, May 18, 2004 4:17 PM

GUNHAND


Quote:

Originally posted by WhooDahn:
Quote:


Speaking of Book, he knows where the engine subsystems are in Serenity and also in The Message he does a pretty good job of running scans of the planet to find the Alliance base and spectrum band analysis to tell that Womack hasn't sent any messages.



I always though that scene was very telling about Book's past. While the rest of the crew is wondering if they are going to get bombed, Book is running scans. He is very cool in a fire fight.



"I ain't crazy and I've got papers to prove it"



Book is almost too cool in a firefight. It's downright creepifying at times. I swear during the fight on Niska's Skyplex he actually dodged a bullet, well at least that's my story and I'm sticking to it.



~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"

My eerie-ass website:
http://gunhandsfirefly.homestead.com/Index.html

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Tuesday, May 18, 2004 4:58 PM

INSIGHT SPINNER


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
Fellow Browncoats:

Good morning. It's Monday, the first day of my 'weekend' and for most of you, the first day back at the grindstone. I hope it goes tolerably.

As I reflect on Firefly -- something I do a lot, obviously -- it occurs to me that perhaps the greatest mystery of the show is the one not readily apparent as a mystery. I'm talking about the motivations and history of the show's one steadfast character, Zoë Warren. I get the feeling that Joss might possibly be pulling a little sleight-of-hand here. Please allow me to digress slightly, in order to illuminate my assertion.

My father, when I was a lad, used to 'rassle' around with me, much to my childish delight. He'd get on his knees to equalize our heights and then 'slap-box' spar with me, ostensibly just playfully; but those lessons a father teaches a son invariably prove useful in real-life situations later. While it may seem like I'm meandering a bit, here's the point: He'd strike a fighting stance, then say, "You see this hand? You see this hand?" bluffing with his right; then he'd sneak in with his left, delivering a light tap to my cheek and say, "This is the one you've gotta watch out for."

So maybe, by showing us all those other gravid mysteries of Book and River, Blue Hands and Reavers, Joss is saying, "See this hand?". What if Zoë -- seemingly the least mysterious character on the show -- is the "one you've gotta watch out for"?

People have noted the ostensible wardrobe mistake of having Zoë wearing the 'wedding necklace' prior to having met Wash. Is it possible that it was not a mistake at all? Perhaps she was married and widowed previously, still wearing the necklace from mourning, or from a desire to avoid unwelcome advances. Back in the day, I knew lots of women who -- though unmarried -- bought a wedding ring to wear to clubs so they could drink in peace with their friends (pick-up lines are the most disgraceful things about the average male, not so?). I've also been giving some thought that the necklace may symbolize a different form of bondage than marriage, and that her continued wearing of it is a symbol of her hard-won freedom from that bondage. But it's probably just a silly notion of mine; there's certainly no evidence to support.

There's more to the 'Zoë Mystery'. Why is she so faithful to Mal? We may reasonably presume that the horrendous circumstances of the Battle of Serenity Valley have formed a bond between them. But what was the crystalizing event that made them inseparable? Many men at arms have been through the fire together, but few will form so strong or lasting a bond. Whatever that critical event was, how will it affect future actions, and ultimately the outcome of the series?

We are given glimpses of most of the other characters earlier homes or formative years. We know Mal was reared on Shadow, on a large cattle ranch. We know Wash's original home was a place so smoggy (cough, Los Angeles, cough) that he became a pilot just to see the stars. We know that River and Simon grew up in affluent surroundings on a hospitable planet. Conversely, we know that Jayne was brought up poor and rough on some backwater chunk of matter. We know Kaylee grew up on a similar backwater, the mechanic daughter of a mechanic. We may reasonably assume that Inara was initiated on Sihnon at a very young age, being educated in Guild schools until she came of age (in the Firefly 'verse what, 12?) and then became a sexual servant exclusively to the rich and powerful of society (ponder on this, if you will). We know virtually nothing of substance about Book's formative years, because that's his mystery ("See this hand?").

With Zoë however, why do we know nothing more about her childhood/formative years? Joss seems to have gone out of his way to deliver evidence of even Jayne's and Wash's; why not Zoë's, if everything's on the up-and-up? I've got some suspicions, but no proof, so I'll not further enumerate them, for now. But that's precisely what I'm talking about: Zoë is a mystery with no clues whatsoever. Perhaps there's nothing mysterious to tell. If so, why the conspicuous silence on any details of her past?

Could it be that Zoë's mystery is the most startling of them all? I think only Joss knows, at this point; that it has repercussions not only in Zoë's actions, but perhaps in some of Mal's predilections, as well, if you catch my drift... In the words of my father, "This is the one you've gotta watch out for." Perhaps.


Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"History may say I saved River; but it's not like that. No, that's not it at all. I saved my sister."

- Simon Tam, M.D., husband and father of 4, Jiangyin; from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard



Zoid,

I think that Zoë is a mystery because she is a very closed person. Why she is a closed person, everyone presumes has something to do with the war, but that might be your lefthand stroke. Many folks suggest that this would have to be sinister (sorry, joke unitended), but I don't think so. I think Zoë's background leaves ample opportunity for twists that do not have to do with disloyalty to Mal.

These twists would just deepen the story, surprise us, etc.

For example, what if Zoë wants children so badly because she lost a child or children related to the war, or her background, or whatever happened in the 6 years between Serenity Valley and Serenity the ship we meet in, err, Serenity the episode.

Anyway...

Zoë is the quiet enigma and there is definitely something there that Joss would turn into gold if time for that story is allowed. Until then, we are left to wonder.

insight spinner
__________

Just an object. It doesn't mean what you think....

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Wednesday, May 19, 2004 5:10 AM

CYBERSNARK


As another random thought:

Zoe's whole "cardboard cutout" act got me thinking of where I've seen such things before. Animé has a tradition of taking cardboard people and rendering the emotionlessness as extreme coolness. The first example that popped into my head was Heero and Trowa, from Gundam Wing.

Of course, At the core of GW, there're two commentaries. One is "what do soldiers do after the war is over," and the other is about child soldiers.

Child soldiers are a tactic used in many less-populated and/or less geopolitically stable nations. Grab up as many orphans (or even "conscripted" children) as you can, and run them through boot camp/psych indoctrination in their formative years. You get soldiers who are totally devoted to the cause, highly skilled (because they don't have any of that "personal life" crap getting in the way of their training). These people are living weapons, whose only purpose is to fight and die for their officers.

Heck, those of us who've watched Dark Angel will have seen the process up close, through Max's flashbacks. You can also read about it in Orson Scott Card's Ender's Game books. We've seen Jem'Hadar on DS9, and clonetroopers (and heck, even the Jedi themselves) in the Star Wars prequels. And, of course, the Gundam pilots.

It occurred to me that Zoe might be a survivor of some War-era youth training program. It'd certainly account for her overall badassitude and by-the-book personality, as well as her utter devotion to Mal. It might even explain her marriage to Wash, whose reckless fun-loving personality are the exact counterpoint to just about everything she's been brought up to be. Wash liberates her.

Now, child soldiers doesn't seem like something the Independents would try, unless the war got really desperate. The Alliance, OTOH. . .

Possibly Zoe was a soldier who somehow developed some sense of morals. Maybe even outright sympathy for the Independents. Maybe Mal (or, more accurately, Mal's unit) rescued her, and she repaid that the only way she knew how --total loyalty to her Superior Officer.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Wednesday, May 19, 2004 5:21 AM

GHOULMAN


I haven't read the posts so maybe I'm stating the obvious... sorry to just interject...

Zoe is scared. The reason she is still hanging with Mal has to do with the Battle of Serenity, at least mostly. I suspect Zoe survived the battle by acting as we have always seen her; at Mals side backing him up. Since the battle, I can only guess Zoe is stuck in this behavior as a survival mechanism. Even a dependance on Mal for emotional security.

Remember, her marriage to Wash is recent and she didn't even like him upon first meeting. So Wash is a changing element for her... too bad we didn't get to see what changes Wash might have brought out of Zoe.

Oh and GINA TORRES IS FREAKY LUSHIOUS! Mmmmm... warrior woman. She has a perfect profile. Anyone ever notice? Perfect!

Oops! Gotta go work or something.

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Wednesday, May 19, 2004 5:34 AM

INSIGHT SPINNER


Quote:

Originally posted by Cybersnark:
As another random thought:


It occurred to me that Zoe might be a survivor of some War-era youth training program. It'd certainly account for her overall badassitude and by-the-book personality, as well as her utter devotion to Mal. It might even explain her marriage to Wash, whose reckless fun-loving personality are the exact counterpoint to just about everything she's been brought up to be. Wash liberates her.

Now, child soldiers doesn't seem like something the Independents would try, unless the war got really desperate. The Alliance, OTOH. . .

Possibly Zoe was a soldier who somehow developed some sense of morals. Maybe even outright sympathy for the Independents. Maybe Mal (or, more accurately, Mal's unit) rescued her, and she repaid that the only way she knew how --total loyalty to her Superior Officer.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.



Hmmm...let me pursue your theory a bit. So, we have Zoe as a child-soldier of the Alliance rescued by Mal's unit. She would believe that the enemy would do all manner of unseemly things to her body from her training. Instead, they treat her with dignity and respect and her loyalty is eventually won. Hmmm. that could be and might explain the lack of other females in the war flashback sequences. Believe me, I've looked at dead and alive both for more women and haven't detected even one other woman. It doesn't make sense that the Alliance would use child soldiers.

Rather, what if Zoe is not a child, but an adolescent who has determined to dedicate herself to the war effort in retaliation for what may have happened to her loved ones or her way of living. She may even have done the "Joan of Arc" thing, disguising herself as a male in order to be allowed to make her mark in the war. Hey, if it's good enough for Eowyn....

By the time her secret is known, her value as a fighting instrument is reknowned and she is accepted as a part of the team (now letting her hair grow back or whatever. It does seem odd that she is fighting with all that hair. At the very least you would think they would have braided it up and put it up on her head to be more functional. but I digress...).

So that explains her presence in the war, her devotion to the cause. It doesn't explain her devotion to Mal, though. It would have to be more than being accepted into his unit, yes?

And Cybersnark, I LOVE badassitude!! Can I borrow that word?

insight spinner
__________

Just an object. It doesn't mean what you think....

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Wednesday, May 19, 2004 5:44 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:

Originally posted by Sarahetc:
Quote:

Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
Quote:

Originally posted by Sarahetc:
Wonderful Zoe questions. The surprise-left theory is very juicy.

Glad to see you post Sarahetc. It is has been awhile since I saw a post from you & was wondering where you had gotten to.




Hey, thanks. I still read every day, but I don't have much to add to most threads lately. And I'm of the "if you can't say anything interesting, don't say anything at all" school of posting.

I've thought some more about Zoe and what I can come up with is that the war has been the most significant event of her life. It now informs even what happened before the war.

At the same time, I can't get over the honest, loyal and straightforward hurdle. Like I said before, the "surprise left" theory is super juicy and fun to think about, but it seems contrary to her fundamental Zoe-ness that she would perpetrate anything against Mal. That does not take into consideration any traumatic events that might happen in the future, but at this point, she's Zoe. I think we don't know much about her because she doesn't want us to know much about her.

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case



Glad to see you are still around Sarahetc. I was beginning to wonder where all the browncoats that had been posting here since I joined back in the day had gone.

I agree w/ your "if you can't say anything interesting, don't say anything at all school of posting" philosophy. I have found myself w/ less to offer to many of the threads that have been posted of late.

I find myself wondering what Zoe was like before the war. Was she always so hard and soft spoken? Did she know Mal before the war began? Did she go to war only because Mal volunteered? I do agree w/ you though that the war has most likely been the most significant event in her life as far formative events.

I agree that Zoid's "surprise left" theory is interesting and bears consideration, I am drawn up short by Zoe's personality as well. She is a woman of few words, but when she speaks, what she has to say is worth hearing. She is a woman of action and is the one person you can rely on in a firefight. Zoe is not duplicitous, nor is she the type to serve her own interests. Zoe is the futuristic example of a myrmidon. Her loyalty to Mal is unswerving. She would die to protect anyone of the crew because they are her family, her unit if you will.

In thinking on it, I don't think Zoe is more than she seems, more likely she has a past she does not talk about because she sees no need. Unless Joss is one sneaky individual, I think Zoe is the one character we can count on to be the rock of the crew.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Wednesday, May 19, 2004 4:25 PM

ZOID


Cybersnark, Insight Spinner, Browncoat1 and Ghoulman, et al:

I've read your posts intervening since my last, and I find them thoughtful and interesting (as always). I am particularly intrigued by 'snark's suggestions.

Bearing in mind Firefly's Oriental underpinnings, I immediately thought of a venerable warrior tradition: the samurai of Japan. For some reason, I never really considered Zoë in quite that light, but 'snark's comment about child-soldiers reminded me of the children on "The Last Samurai" training and kicking T. Cruise's ass.

On the other hand, I don't see Zoë being as single-minded as Kurt Russell's character 'SGT Todd 3465' from "Soldier" (a movie I enjoyed enough to repeat view, even though Russell's man-as-German-Shepherd was pretty campy). She's a very mature and well-socialized human, in a way that makes me doubt she has been through a deprogramming process. Still, citing from "Last Samurai" as though it was a credible reference on that culture, those samurai were respectful and humane within their communities and appreciative of the arts and philosophy; they were humans, even though they were fearsome and inhumane warriors (zoid suddenly remembers Zoë unceremoniously slitting an enemy's throat in "The Message"). Therefore a traditional samurai upbringing for Zoë might render the character we observe.

On a final note, I never meant to imply that when Joss 'hits us... with a surprise left' (thnx E. Vedder) that it will be in the form of a betrayal on the part of Zoë. I believe she is the steadfast character she appears to be, to the same depth that I believe Book is a man of genuine morality. Neither of these characters is other than they appear in terms of their essential nature. But I believe both have a startling revelation in store for us; we expect Book's mystery. The fact that we don't expect Zoë's may make it more mind-bending.

'Pretentious' mentioned the deleted line of Zoë's indicating that she had been raised on a ship. The more I think of that, the more I think, "Why did JW pull that line from the scene?" It's not a deleted scene; the scene is in HoG. It wasn't too time-consuming; it would only have added maybe 10 seconds to that included scene. It wasn't awkward or inconsequential to the discussion between Zoë and her husband: it was a germane question.

I'm beginning to believe Joss whipped out the Big Book of Firefly and either said, "No, it isn't true that she was raised on a ship; take the line out," or he said, "No, I'm not ready to let that clue slip out about Zoë just yet; take it out." Either way, if Joss went to the Big Book to nix that one simple, innocuous line, then he's definitely got something up his sleeve.

Or not. ;)


Respectfully,

zoid
P.S.
Spinner, you may be right about Zoë pretending to be a guy, but I kinda doubt any guy would be fooled. She's definitely all girl. Of course, I'd have also said you couldn't make me believe Hilary Swank was a guy, either (especially considering the way she over-filled the gown she wore to accept her Oscar for that performance; here's a peek http://tinyurl.com/28fy9).
_________________________________________________

"History may say I saved River; but it's not like that. No, that's not it at all. I saved my sister."

- Simon Tam, M.D., husband and father of 4, Jiangyin; from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Wednesday, May 19, 2004 5:15 PM

ELWOODMOM


>>Remember, her marriage to Wash is recent and she didn't even like him upon first meeting. So Wash is a changing element for her... too bad we didn't get to see what changes Wash might have brought out of Zoe.<<


That's the one thing about the series that never made sense to me. How did she get from not liking Wash to marrying him?? No hints, nothing about what made her do an about-face.

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 2:14 AM

GHOULMAN


The Zoe before the Battle of Serenity is veeeeery different from the Zoe after. The Zoe attached to Mals' hip.

And yea, we would have loved to see more of Zoe and Wash. But I didn't need to see more to understand that without Wash the Zoe before the War would have remained buried and all Zoe would be (or I might say could be) is Mals hip hugger. And be miserable.

Thanx to Wash, Zoe is on a journey to becoming a complete person. A journey the War nearly ripped from her. A journey we all take - the one where you can't get there alone.

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 3:07 AM

LIZ


Zoe's is the epitome of that Western concept of "the (wo)man with no name" -- as in "A Fistful of Dollars" (based on "Yojimbo" of course). There had to be a character that could fill that role.
just my thought

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 3:33 AM

GHOULMAN


Hmm. Nice Fist Full of Dollars catch. I love how Firefly emulates the spagetti western of days past. I can't agree that Zoe is the 'no name' character except to agree she is the closest character to that. And the only character on the show who might fulfill that role ... should it come up. :)

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 4:22 AM

ASTRIANA


Quote:

Originally posted by Elwoodmom:
>>Remember, her marriage to Wash is recent and she didn't even like him upon first meeting. So Wash is a changing element for her... too bad we didn't get to see what changes Wash might have brought out of Zoe.<<

That's the one thing about the series that never made sense to me. How did she get from not liking Wash to marrying him?? No hints, nothing about what made her do an about-face.

You really outta read some of Sarahetc's fanfic about them. She really captures how it could have come about. All of her Wash/Zoe stuff is truly incredible. I believe they run in this order, chronologically (within the existing canon), but Sarah could tell you for sure:

Where the Truth Was
Mood to Burn Bridges
The Heart of Her
RSVP
First Mate
Laid Bare
Over and Over and Over

~A~
El Jefe Magnifico's Mistress... of Communications and Harems...

...I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me.

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 4:24 AM

CYBERSNARK


Quote:

Originally posted by insight spinner:
And Cybersnark, I LOVE badassitude!! Can I borrow that word?

Of course. I'm pretty sure it's mine; I used to use it on the Andromeda newsgroup (to define what Tyr lost when the show went pear-shaped).

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 4:38 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Nicely put Ghoulman. I do believe that Wash may have "saved" Zoe from the life she had sunk to after the war. I think he helped to bring out the side of Zoe she had to bury in order to get through the war and deal w/ the aftermath when the Independents were beaten.

Nice catch on the "man (woman) w/ no name" comparison Liz. That had never occured to me, but it is very accurate.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Thursday, May 20, 2004 5:15 AM

SARAHETC


Quote:

Originally posted by Astriana:
You really outta read some of Sarahetc's fanfic about them. She really captures how it could have come about. All of her Wash/Zoe stuff is truly incredible.



Thank you so very much. Really, truly, thank you. I never got around to putting them in much of an order, but RSVP, Where the Truth Was, Mood to Burn Bridges and The Heart of Her are all pre-series. To make the chronological, I'd go: WTTW, MTBB, THOH, and RSVP.

After that Laid Bare and Over and Over and Over are missing scene fics. First Mate is a stand alone.

I'm actually close to posting a "how Zoe grew up" story-- with relevant Mal and Wash scenes. It's still being beta'd, but should be done soon. I fretted about saying that endlessly, but there it is. I hope it's not as ugly as I'm afraid it could be.

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 5:41 AM

ELWOODMOM


You really outta read some of Sarahetc's fanfic about them. She really captures how it could have come about. All of her Wash/Zoe stuff is truly incredible. I believe they run in this order, chronologically (within the existing canon), but Sarah could tell you for sure:

Where the Truth Was
Mood to Burn Bridges
The Heart of Her
RSVP
First Mate
Laid Bare
Over and Over and Over


Thanks much!

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Thursday, May 20, 2004 11:44 AM

INSIGHT SPINNER


Quote:

Originally posted by Cybersnark:
Quote:

Originally posted by insight spinner:
And Cybersnark, I LOVE badassitude!! Can I borrow that word?

Of course. I'm pretty sure it's mine; I used to use it on the Andromeda newsgroup (to define what Tyr lost when the show went pear-shaped).

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.



Oh yeah. Tyr had badassitude. It's your word, so I encourage you to start a thread just on the subject.

insight spinner
__________

Just an object. It doesn't mean what you think....

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Friday, May 21, 2004 10:31 AM

GUILDSISTER


I think the necklace thing being a wedding symbol came from some of the guys on a DVD commentary track speculating without certainty--I think it's actually the bracelet she wears. She's not wearing it in the Out of Gas pre-Wash flashbacks but is in the post-scenes.

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