GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

What’s the element of success for Firefly

POSTED BY: BARLONG
UPDATED: Sunday, May 6, 2012 07:52
SHORT URL: http://bit.ly/J5zZI5
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Thursday, May 3, 2012 12:47 AM

BARLONG


We are all here for the same thing, but what made us so emotionally attached to this specific SCI-FI theme?
Maybe the story?
The actors?
The fact that it was cancelled and we never had the chance to see the best and the worst of it?
Something else?


For me it was for sure first the actors and then the story. You can easily see that they had something special all together that made them glow in front of the camera. That’s why I think that a future remake will not be the same even if Joss is writing the scripts.

What do you think?

Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:

Most of all it was about people who were doing the things we all do everyday, get by. They were not looking to save empires or anything like that. They were just going from one day to the next.

Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:
and that these people actually have LAYERS, like REAL people do....

And they threw in a joke once in a while too! I don't know how many shows I've quit watching because they got sooo serious that I couldn't relax enough to enjoy them... So many writers don't understand that comedy diffuses tension and helps you relate, and that is one thing that Joss gets where others don't...

But overall, I think they just did "cool" well. It's a whole basketload of eye candy.



Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
Charactors and their situations and relationships with each other, setting, plots, wild West plus space minus aliens, human nature: the good the bad and the really ugly, costuming, dialogue and comedic elements (one of the most quotable shows I know). This is what makes Firefly a brilliant classic never to be eclipsed.


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Thursday, May 3, 2012 1:31 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


All of the above...

Firefly just had that right mix. The characters are great, but made even better by that actors that played them. Can you really imagine someone other then Fillion playing Mal? What about someone else playing Jayne, or River?

It was set in the future with all kinds of fantastic technology yet focused on a ship without those sleek amenities. Things like touch screens are cool, but deep down everyone like a good button. Serenity felt real because of this. I think every Browncoat can imagine walking through the ship much more then walking through one of the many ships named Enterprise.

Most of all it was about people who were doing the things we all do everyday, get by. They were not looking to save empires or anything like that. They were just going from one day to the next.


I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 2:24 AM

BARLONG


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:


Most of all it was about people who were doing the things we all do everyday, get by. They were not looking to save empires or anything like that. They were just going from one day to the next.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.



You are SO correct with the above.

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 3:14 AM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


Quote:

Originally posted by barlong:
We are all here for the same thing, but what made us so emotionally attached to this specific SCI-FI theme?


I think part of it was that we all knew it had to be heading somewhere, both as a plot and as characters, and also it was that they were kinda fighting back in their own little way against something they couldn't let go of and I think many of us only wish we could fight back. And there was the whole breaking of traditions with having a mixed race couple and a female spaceship mechanic, the portrayal of a character with a mental disorder (which we don't do a lot), the decriminalization of sex, a Captain who doesn't pretend to be so freaking perfect!! and that these people actually have LAYERS, like REAL peple do....

And they threw in a joke once in a while too! I don't know how many shows I've quit watching because they got sooo serious that I couldn't relax enough to enjoy them... So many writers don't understand that comedy diffuses tension and helps you relate, and that is one thing that Joss gets where others don't...

And it helped redefine our rediculous expectations for a sterile future of spaceflight... I mean synthahol??? Where's THAT get fun???

But overall, I think they just did "cool" well. It's a whole basketload of eye candy.

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 3:22 AM

BARLONG


Joss is a genius and I think his latest project Avengers will give him the credit he deserves.

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 4:32 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Can you really imagine someone other then Fillion playing Mal? What about someone else playing Jayne, or River?


Technically I can, but Nathan, Alan, and Adam would have major sad face. We're talking King Lear level tragic poutiness.

You can not withstand that amount of puppy eyes from them. You can't.

Seriously though, someone asked Nathan and Adam this very question in an interview recently, and the reactions they had, the thought had clearly never even occurred to them that someone else could play the roles. They were not only kinda flat-footed and shocked by the suggestion but seemed almost genuinely a little hurt. They managed to recover a bit, say something supportive, but it looked like it was hard for them.

So, if there's ever a continuation or even a reboot, I think it should be them. And you know, Mal might've been around fifty at the time of the story depending on what you believe, and considering the genre of the story and the characters themselves there's no reason they couldn't be a little more crusty. Except Wash, he wouldn't wear grizzled well on his personality, and some of the other characters might have to be updated for the age difference as well, but we can think of something.

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 5:50 AM

STORYMARK


For me, it's the characters, and the setting - and how Joss and Co. play with genre conventions.

I like all the actors, no doubt - but Ive never really been able to really get into any of the shows they've been on since, so they alone are certainly not the draw for me.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 5:53 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
All of the above...Firefly just had that right mix. The characters are great, but made even better by that actors that played them. Can you really imagine someone other then Fillion playing Mal? What about someone else playing Jayne, or River?



Not really - but that's becuase they're who I associate with the character. Had someone else gotten a given role, say if NPH had been cast as Simon, well - HE'D be Simon for me, and Sean Maher would be just some dude I couldn't imagine in the role.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 5:56 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Not that anyone asked, but Joss Whedon has a reason why Serenity is not a regular comic while Buffy Season 9 and Angel & Faith are regular as clocks:
"Despite requests from fans, Joss Whedon has stated that Serenity is unlikely to be released as a regular publication series.[34] He believes that the pacing and storyarc structure he created for Firefly would work poorly as a regular series, and unlike the monthly-issued Buffy Season 8, Serenity does not have the wealth of background material generated by seven seasons of television to draw from.[34] However, Dark Horse senior editor Scott Allie wants to produce new miniseries on a more regular basis, reducing the three-year wait between Those Left Behind and Better Days.[34]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_%28comics%29#Reaction

Joss' actual words about why there aren't Serenity novels and monthly comics:
Quote:

Publishers Weekly Comics Week: What’s it like taking something from screen to comics?

Joss Whedon: It’s complicated, with Serenity particularly. It’s easy with Buffy in a way because again it’s a pop idea, it could have been a comic book before it was a movie. Serenity doesn’t really lend itself to that in the same way. You can tell fun, compelling stories about it, but you have sort of an ensemble drama that you’re making into a comic book, so you have to find stories that are gonna move in a different rhythm than Buffy stories.

With Serenity and Firefly, you couldn’t do a regular monthly comic the way you can with Buffy because their life isn't [event after event] in the same way. I know that’s strange because we did do a TV show that was not monthly but weekly, but it lends itself to these stories that we tell in a few issues that we really think out beforehand.

Whereas Buffy, maybe because it was on for so many years, already has its own "Marvel universe" attached to it, with hundreds of ancillary characters and situations, so it’s easier to build that kind of story. With Serenity, you want it to feel more like a novel than a straight-up superhero comic.

Publishers Weekly Comics Week: Are there more Serenity comics planned ?

Joss Whedon: Scott [Allie, Dark Horse editor] was definitely like, “Can we not wait three years in between comics next time ?” I’m like, “I hear where you’re going with that.” It is definitely contingent on us having time and finding a particular story. With Buffy, I have an overarching story and I can do anything I want in that. Obviously, like I said before, Serenity doesn’t work that way, so it has to be right. It’s not simple. And the dialogue is very easy to get wrong. Luckily [co-writer Brett Matthews] worked on the show, so he really understands it, but it’s hard to make sure—you can’t take a wrong step with that or it won’t work. Hopefully, we’re not doing that with Buffy, either, but it’s a little more delicate.

The difference also with Serenity is I have more trouble letting it out of my hands. Buffy I ran as a show, and obviously Firefly had a writing staff, a great one, but, for example, with novels—they’re like, “[Let’s do] Serenity novels !” The idea of somebody else writing a Serenity novel, I can’t handle. [But] there are 10 Buffy novels.

Publishers Weekly Comics Week: Do you think that’s because you had more time with Buffy ?

Joss Whedon: I think so. If anybody wrote a Serenity novel right now, it would be the only thing apart from these comic books, which come out very rarely—that there is to say about Serenity. If something’s going to be said about Serenity, it’s going to be said by me. It’s too close to me still. It’s the child that never got to grow up and go to college.
www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/new-titles/adult-announcements/ar
ticle/6675-whedon-can--t-get-enough-serenity-.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20090415090750/http://www.publishersweekly.
com/article/CA6497916.html?nid=2789

www.whedon.info/Joss-Whedon-Buffy-Tv-Series-Comic.html



The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 5:59 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Not really - but that's becuase they're who I associate with the character. Had someone else gotten a given role, say if NPH had been cast as Simon, well - HE'D be Simon for me, and Sean Maher would be just some dude I couldn't imagine in the role.


Doogie Howser: The Psychic Assassin Frontier Case Files.

Actually, he'd probably be pretty good.

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 6:04 AM

OUTERRIMVAGRANT


Honesty.

The honesty of the characters and their perspective on the 'verse. (Both the BDH's and the bad guys.)

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 6:12 AM

ZEEK


I think it was a combination that made Firefly work so well. They nailed the sense of family among the crew. They did very well at having witty dialog which is something I really like. And I think you could just tell that the actors were enjoying themselves. No one was just going through the motions. All of that combined just made it kind of magical.

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 6:15 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Not really - but that's becuase they're who I associate with the character. Had someone else gotten a given role, say if NPH had been cast as Simon, well - HE'D be Simon for me, and Sean Maher would be just some dude I couldn't imagine in the role.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"



True, but a huge part of what made the show great was the interactions with the other actors. So if Harris would have been cast as Simon, he would be Simon to you and everyone else, of course that also means the show may not have been as good and you may not care who played the role at all.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 6:26 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Not really - but that's becuase they're who I associate with the character. Had someone else gotten a given role, say if NPH had been cast as Simon, well - HE'D be Simon for me, and Sean Maher would be just some dude I couldn't imagine in the role.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"



True, but a huge part of what made the show great was the interactions with the other actors. So if Harris would have been cast as Simon, he would be Simon to you and everyone else, of course that also means the show may not have been as good and you may not care who played the role at all.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.



Honestly, Simon is the character I have the least affection for, and Maher, nothing personal against him, has never really registered much for me as an actor. If anything, I may have liked it more with Harris.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 7:10 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Honestly, Simon is the character I have the least affection for, and Maher, nothing personal against him, has never really registered much for me as an actor. If anything, I may have liked it more with Harris.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"



For you then, maybe it would have worked.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 8:10 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

I mean synthahol??? Where's THAT get fun???


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So come try some. -It's Shiny!-

...Welp. Now I gotta go make an old-timey advertising poster. For unrelated reasons.

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 9:41 AM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


Quote:

Originally posted by two:


He believes that the pacing and storyarc structure he created for Firefly would work poorly as a regular series Serenity does not have the wealth of background material generated by seven seasons of television to draw from

Joss' actual words about why there aren't Serenity novels and monthly comics:

Joss Whedon: It’s complicated, with Serenity particularly. It’s easy with Buffy in a way because again it’s a pop idea, it could have been a comic book before it was a movie. Serenity doesn’t really lend itself to that in the same way. You can tell fun, compelling stories about it, but you have sort of an ensemble drama that you’re making into a comic book, so you have to find stories that are gonna move in a different rhythm than Buffy stories.

With Serenity and Firefly, you couldn’t do a regular monthly comic the way you can with Buffy because their life isn't [event after event] in the same way. I know that’s strange because we did do a TV show that was not monthly but weekly, but it lends itself to these stories that we tell in a few issues that we really think out beforehand.

With Serenity, you want it to feel more like a novel than a straight-up superhero comic.

Publishers Weekly Comics Week: Are there more Serenity comics planned ?

Joss Whedon: Scott [Allie, Dark Horse editor] was definitely like, “Can we not wait three years in between comics next time ?” I’m like, “I hear where you’re going with that.” It is definitely contingent on us having time and finding a particular story. With Buffy, I have an overarching story and I can do anything I want in that. Obviously, like I said before, Serenity doesn’t work that way, so it has to be right. It’s not simple. And the dialogue is very easy to get wrong. Luckily [co-writer Brett Matthews] worked on the show, so he really understands it, but it’s hard to make sure—you can’t take a wrong step with that or it won’t work. Hopefully, we’re not doing that with Buffy, either, but it’s a little more delicate.

The difference also with Serenity is I have more trouble letting it out of my hands. Buffy I ran as a show, and obviously Firefly had a writing staff, a great one, but, for example, with novels—they’re like, “[Let’s do] Serenity novels !” The idea of somebody else writing a Serenity novel, I can’t handle.










*sigh
IF YOU WANT IT TO FEEL LIKE A NOVEL, JOSS- DO A DAMN NOVEL!!! Yer not the only decent writer on the planet...

I REALLY don't think he's giving us enough credit, or even, ANY credit. WE've hung around for TEN YEARS!!! waiting for a STORY. All he has to do is read and authorize stories he likes. He doesn't even have to give up complete creative control over THOSE, I'm sure most authors would agree to a little re-write on his say-so. And the dialogue isn't THAT hard to grasp either, I think most of us are pretty fluent. IT's a modern-westernized-redneck-cool- with an efficient streak, removing some conjunctions, and adding a little force and a little rhythm. Pah.



This guy is starting to drive me just a little insane.

Well, OK. Just a little MORE insane than I already was...

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 10:35 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


It's his and he does not want anyone else doing anything with it. Lots of people are very protective of their work. George Lucas is the same way. Lucas may have licensed Star Wars out, but has said more then once that the Extended Universe is a different one then his Star Wars Universe.

"I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."


EDIT: Joss even says that he can't handle someone else writing a Serenity (Firefly) novel...

The difference also with Serenity is I have more trouble letting it out of my hands. Buffy I ran as a show, and obviously Firefly had a writing staff, a great one, but, for example, with novels—they’re like, “[Let's do] Serenity novels!” The idea of somebody else writing a Serenity novel, I can’t handle. [But] there are 10 Buffy novels.

http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/new-titles/adult-announcem
ents/article/6675-whedon-can--t-get-enough-serenity-.html





I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 10:58 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Charactors and their situations and relationships with each other, setting, plots, wild West plus space minus aliens, human nature: the good the bad and the really ugly, costuming, dialogue and comedic elements (one of the most quotable shows I know). This is what makes Firefly a brilliant classic never to be eclipsed.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 12:26 PM

BYTEMITE


Wish: Well he IS letting his brother write in the verse now. So it's not a total wash.

I kind of understand Joss and where he's coming from. He's still hurt by the cancellation and he's still trying to protect himself and the Firefly verse from further losses. I actually think he could make oodles of money if he wanted to put out a heist a week sort of serial, but maybe that's not what he wants. He wants it to keep its integrity I think.


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Thursday, May 3, 2012 1:11 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Wish: Well he IS letting his brother write in the verse now. So it's not a total wash.

I kind of understand Joss and where he's coming from. He's still hurt by the cancellation and he's still trying to protect himself and the Firefly verse from further losses. I actually think he could make oodles of money if he wanted to put out a heist a week sort of serial, but maybe that's not what he wants. He wants it to keep its integrity I think.

We are going to find out if Zack Whedon is still trustworthy. He wrote for Joss a short, new, free comic coming this Saturday -- Serenity: Firefly Class 03-K64—It’s Never Easy www.freecomicbookday.com/Home/1/1/27/1041?stockItemID=STK459374


The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 1:28 PM

BYTEMITE


I've heard good word of mouth actually. Waiting for the actual official release date though for a final determination.

Wish the inside art was prettier, but I guess for more Firefly story it's not that important. And the cover art makes up for it. :D

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Thursday, May 3, 2012 10:27 PM

BARLONG


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
Charactors and their situations and relationships with each other, setting, plots, wild West plus space minus aliens, human nature: the good the bad and the really ugly, costuming, dialogue and comedic elements (one of the most quotable shows I know). This is what makes Firefly a brilliant classic never to be eclipsed.



You are so correct for all the above!!

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Friday, May 4, 2012 5:08 AM

EBFIDDLER


Compelling characters. They're not perfect, entirely heroic, entirely bad. They're complicated and human.
Interesting setting. Joss has talked about the "used future" feel. It's not all shiny and high tech. They have the fancy gadgets but the gadgets don't always work. Sometimes you fall back on low-tech solutions, even on a spaceship. Like real life. Despite being set in space and on planets that don't exist, we can all relate to it because it feels like real life.
Mix of drama, action, humor and romance. Without focussing overmuch on any one of those to the exclusion of the others. It gets angsty, creepy, serious, tense -- and then there's a joke. And again, that feels real, because that's how real people cope with stress.
And on the show: some really good acting by actors who cared about their work and invested in portraying their characters well; and let's not forget good writing, directing, camera work, music, costuming, set dressing, props, and dozens of other jobs that were well done to put together a cohesive show. Truly a crew that pulled together.

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Saturday, May 5, 2012 12:52 PM

GREENKA61


Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:


*sigh
IF YOU WANT IT TO FEEL LIKE A NOVEL, JOSS- DO A DAMN NOVEL!!! Yer not the only decent writer on the planet...

I REALLY don't think he's giving us enough credit, or even, ANY credit. WE've hung around for TEN YEARS!!! waiting for a STORY. All he has to do is read and authorize stories he likes. He doesn't even have to give up complete creative control over THOSE, I'm sure most authors would agree to a little re-write on his say-so. And the dialogue isn't THAT hard to grasp either, I think most of us are pretty fluent. IT's a modern-westernized-redneck-cool- with an efficient streak, removing some conjunctions, and adding a little force and a little rhythm. Pah.


b]



Nodding in agreement. There are other decent writers out there who will take direction from Joss.

I just want a damn novel!

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Saturday, May 5, 2012 2:22 PM

BYTEMITE


>_> No offense or nothing, but there's a little bit more to writing Firefly dialogue than that. As someone who has both put a lot of effort into writing it, and also not put effort into it and seen the writing suffer as a result.

Long story sort, we all have an investment in his world, we've all made it ours in our own way and Joss understands that fanfic is an inevitability. At the same time, it is technically Joss' world. He says he's not ready to let go, then it's not up to us to hate him for it (especially when he dug out this sandbox for us in the first place), but to be there when he decides to pick it up again.

In the meantime, we meet each other, we enjoy and we share in the experience.

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Saturday, May 5, 2012 3:37 PM

WISHIMAY

There will be fire and brimstone and Earth will be destroyed!... in several billion years!----------------------------------------- "Well, so long Earth. Thanks for the air... and what-not." -Philip J. Fry


I don't hate him, I'm irritated...If I hated him I'm thinkin' my eyes would be just a bit wider, 'course with a face like mine....

I'm not good with the sitting around on mah DUFF, and wondering and worrying if we're gonna get something afore the actors get in walkers... Or I do...
Besides, It's just a BOOK. It's not like the fate of the universe is wrapped up in it...

Well, we already know Avengers went well. Maybe we'll get tossed a bone someday soon.

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Saturday, May 5, 2012 4:33 PM

BYTEMITE


Sorry, I guess that came across as pretty preachy.

Quote:

and wondering and worrying if we're gonna get something afore the actors get in walkers...


You know, at this point I think I might be okay with that.

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Sunday, May 6, 2012 5:23 AM

BARLONG


Thanks you all for your contribution to this post. Firefly is unique to all of us!!!!

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Sunday, May 6, 2012 7:33 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST


For me it's really about the legitimate sense of continuity with the stories. I really love that about Firefly. It's something that has always drawn me to Joss' work. Ever since Buffy. His characters follow the story and the story follows the characters. It seems obvious but it's actually really hard to do.

As for Joss not wanting to let go of his projects - I personally can totally understand that. I'd be exactly the same. I'm selfish that way.

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Sunday, May 6, 2012 7:52 AM

BYTEMITE


Yeah. And I mean, it would be amazing if we got more, a WHOLE LOT more maybe with live acting and broadcasting/livestreaming over some kind of medium, but at least we have this much. That's not so bad.

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