GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

What would have happened to Simon...?

POSTED BY: THESOMNAMBULIST
UPDATED: Thursday, September 26, 2013 04:15
SHORT URL: http://bit.ly/IA0x2X
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Friday, April 13, 2012 8:08 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by two:
Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
You’re right there are some places that Alliance does not seem to have a lot of influence and power, but the difference between those places and the US vs. Pakistan example is that the Alliance could very easily if it wanted to. Those places do not have standing armies.

Are you absolutely, positively sure that the "Alliance" army on every planet is centrally and completely controlled by the one and only Parliament? Are all planets enslaved to the will of the Parliament and not really allies of the Alliance? When the Parliament says jump, every big and small population planet says how high?

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two



Pretty sure. We never see anything to suggest otherwise. As Byte points out "The Alliance has power where it has sent soldiers." In Serenity we are told that the Alliance does not have the troops to cover every place, so they rely on private security, payed for by the Alliance. It's called the Alliance because of formation, not how it actively operates.

I don't think there is a place in the Verse that the Alliance could not take near total control of, if it wanted to. For me that is what makes them scary. You can't beat them. In the BDM had the Operative not given the order at the end the whole crew would be dead. If the Parlament decides to go after River and Simon with full force and knows they are on Sernity, the entire crew will be caught or killed.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Sunday, April 15, 2012 5:45 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
I don't think there is a place in the Verse that the Alliance could not take near total control of, if it wanted to. For me that is what makes them scary. You can't beat them. In the BDM had the Operative not given the order at the end the whole crew would be dead. If the Parliament decides to go after River and Simon with full force and knows they are on Serenity, the entire crew will be caught or killed.

The Alliance can go to war and not win. Leaving science fiction for a real example of David vs Goliath: Vietnam vs China. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War
One more for the other half of the Alliance: Vietnam vs USA.

China could try again to bend Vietnam to its will, but why bother to break peace? And a Rim planet that is at peace but doesn't obey the Parliament, why would the Alliance go to war and risk losing? Is killing Simon & River worth a fight? Imagine they are semi-famous heroes, not fugitives with no known location. ( River was on Beaumonde TV's Dancing with the Stars while Serenity was being rebuilt. She won. )

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Sunday, April 15, 2012 9:09 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Again there are big differences. The Alliance is limited in it's actions like the US was during Vietnam. The US and China couldn't just nuke Vietnam the way the Alliance could to any planet that decided to rebel. Shadow shows us that.

Also the Alliance may not have to go to war. All they have to do is locate Simon and River on the planet and kill them in a local strike.

We just don't see any evidence that any planet in the Verse is going to stand up against the Alliance, nor could. If a writer wants to add that it is up to them, but it adds entities to the Firefly Universe.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Sunday, April 15, 2012 10:51 AM

BYTEMITE


Blue Sun Company could probably strangle the Alliance simply because they're such a huge monopoly and because the Alliance's economy is dependent on it. But that's not a planetary government.

Really the only way single planets could take on the Alliance is if some division arose in the core between two big player planets with the others falling in or turning independent. I mean basically the Alliance would have to be dissolving or non-existent by that point.

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Sunday, April 15, 2012 3:20 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
We just don't see any evidence that any planet in the Verse is going to stand up against the Alliance, nor could. If a writer wants to add that it is up to them, but it adds entities to the Firefly Universe.

The Alliance is supposed to be one solid piece (or Peace) held together by armies.

The Alliance has 100 billion people to Earth's 7. There are 100 planets to Earth's 1. Our Earth is politically fractured, but the Alliance is MORE unified than our Earth? I doubt it.

The only 'Verse history we see is the partial history Mal and River see. That is a very incomplete, but we do know Earth history. And we know Joss Whedon didn't rewrite DNA to make humans better in 500 years.

The Unification War, call it a hot war, is over. You can't be certain it wasn't followed by a cold war. The Operative and the Hands of Blue men are assassins, which makes them appear to be future CIA. Cold warriors.

Why does the Alliance have assassins if it doesn't have external enemies? In Eastern Europe during the Cold war, it was secret police and courts, not roving assassins, that went after internal troublemakers like Simon and River.

Even the Operative said the Alliance has external enemies, without naming them: "Key members of Parliament. Key. The minds behind every diplomatic, military and covert operation in the galaxy, and you put them in a room with a psychic." The Alliance doesn't have diplomatic, military, covert operations against itself. There is more than just the mighty Parliament with power in the Verse.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Sunday, April 15, 2012 3:27 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by THESOMNAMBULIST:
What would have happened to Simon had he and River been caught? River, I imagine would have been taken back to the academy, but what about Simon? Would he have been sent to jail. or something more severe...? Indeed is there any reference to the death penalty in the Verse ?



On the record? Probably a space-bus crashed and he was among the ashes....

Off the record? Hands of Blue......

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Monday, April 16, 2012 1:44 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by two:
The Alliance is supposed to be one solid piece (or Peace) held together by armies.

The Alliance has 100 billion people to Earth's 7. There are 100 planets to Earth's 1. Our Earth is politically fractured, but the Alliance is MORE unified than our Earth? I doubt it.

The only 'Verse history we see is the partial history Mal and River see. That is a very incomplete, but we do know Earth history. And we know Joss Whedon didn't rewrite DNA to make humans better in 500 years.

The Unification War, call it a hot war, is over. You can't be certain it wasn't followed by a cold war. The Operative and the Hands of Blue men are assassins, which makes them appear to be future CIA. Cold warriors.

Why does the Alliance have assassins if it doesn't have external enemies? In Eastern Europe during the Cold war, it was secret police and courts, not roving assassins, that went after internal troublemakers like Simon and River.

Even the Operative said the Alliance has external enemies, without naming them: "Key members of Parliament. Key. The minds behind every diplomatic, military and covert operation in the galaxy, and you put them in a room with a psychic." The Alliance doesn't have diplomatic, military, covert operations against itself. There is more than just the mighty Parliament with power in the Verse.



I think it would have those operations against itself. We see that in Serenity at the beginning. The first three people the Operative kills are Alliance.

I'm sure the Alliance government does have enemies. Thing is they are not entire planets with military power of their own. More political and economic factions that may wish to apply presser on the government. We see that in many countries in the world who have totalitarian governments. Again the world is not a good analog because it is not ruled by a single entity. People in the Verse may not like the Alliance government, but that does not mean they have the means or the will to fight them.

The biggest thing that does not make sense with your thoughts on the Verse is if another power exists why did River and Simon not seek asylum there? Why stay within Alliance controlled space and risk getting caught?



I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Monday, April 16, 2012 3:47 AM

BYTEMITE


Two thinks that Earth is still around and kicking, and the Alliance is keeping it secret.

Could be as you say and not going to Earth is an indication Earth is dead, or could be the crew hasn't found out about it.


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Monday, April 16, 2012 5:39 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Two thinks that Earth is still around and kicking, and the Alliance is keeping it secret.

Could be as you say and not going to Earth is an indication Earth is dead, or could be the crew hasn't found out about it.




Even if earth was still around it would be a generation if not more away and a non-factor.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Monday, April 16, 2012 5:41 AM

BYTEMITE


Two thinks FTL drives or prototypes exist.

I think the problem with retconning Earth's destruction is more an issue with climactic storytelling and use of antagonists, but to each their own.

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Monday, April 16, 2012 8:16 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


If that is what he believes that is fine. Everyone is going to have a slightly different view of the Verse. He just has to understand adding things like FTL drives is adding things to the Verse that we simple don't see.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Monday, April 16, 2012 1:55 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Two thinks FTL drives or prototypes exist.

I do not believe FTL should be part of Firefly. I want Firefly to be realistic -- the Anti-Star Wars/Trek, as Joss called it, in contrast to Star Wars/Trek fantasy world that has faster than light travel making possible galactic empire nonsense.
Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I think the problem with retconning Earth's destruction is more an issue with climactic storytelling and use of antagonists, but to each their own.

If Earth is dead, it kills possible stories. Who wants to oversimplify the Verse? Where is the fun in that?

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, April 16, 2012 2:00 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
He just has to understand adding things like FTL drives is adding things to the Verse that we simple don't see.

I want to add a government of Beaumonde -- home of Fanty and Mingo, also the planet where Serenity was rebuilt -- that the Alliance will hesitate before pissing it off.

After the movie, there is nothing keeping the Alliance from killing Simon and River when the whim once more strikes the Parliament. There needs to be an Avenger moment when an Operative is told in deadly seriousness, “We might not be able to save the Tams, but you can be damn sure we will avenge them.” Without a little counterbalance to the Alliance, the Tams are dead, dead, dead.

Or they have to leave Serenity to keep from being blown out of the sky. If the Tams, Kaylee & Inara leave Serenity because it is missile target so long as the Tams are onboard, the show can't be called Firefly. Nobody wants the name change.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, April 16, 2012 3:01 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I tend to agree with the British Empire interpretation of the verse, the Alliance is able to impose law everywhere, but some areas have less, sometimes very little, Alliance presence because the Alliance sees them as backwaters with nothing of importance, but if something did happen there they'd high tail it over to those little planets which they can get away with doing because they do have official power, even if they don't usually excercise it.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Monday, April 16, 2012 3:47 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by two:
I want to add a government of Beaumonde -- home of Fanty and Mingo, also the planet where Serenity was rebuilt -- that the Alliance will hesitate before pissing it off.

After the movie, there is nothing keeping the Alliance from killing Simon and River when the whim once more strikes the Parliament. There needs to be an Avenger moment when an Operative is told in deadly seriousness, “We might not be able to save the Tams, but you can be damn sure we will avenge them.” Without a little counterbalance to the Alliance, the Tams are dead, dead, dead.

Or they have to leave Serenity to keep from being blown out of the sky. If the Tams, Kaylee & Inara leave Serenity because it is missile target so long as the Tams are onboard, the show can't be called Firefly. Nobody wants the name change.



You can believe and add what you want. Thing is I don't think you need to add a governments to planets that will make that Alliance think twice, nor have an avenging moment against the Tams. The Parliament will have enough to worry about after the Miranda Wave, not to mention that some in power may indeed think that revenge against the Tams is pointless. More so if it is kept secrete that Serenity sent the wave.

To me having factions within the Parliament wanting different things and believing in different ways to proceed is easier to swallow that what you are purposing because it goes against what is seen.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Monday, April 16, 2012 4:55 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
You can believe and add what you want.

You sound like my great-grandma, who can't imagine the Apollo moon landings happened. She wants more proof. A round trip to Luna would be enough to change her mind.

The only Browncoats we know for sure disarmed after Serenity Valley were Mal and Zoe. As far as we know, other battles ended with cease fires. More war was possible. For a real example, see Korean War. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War

Because neither side crushed the other, the USA is careful about North Korea to this day. There is no war, but no treaty. Now imagine N Korea with H-bombs & ICBMs. The USA would be very, very careful.

If a Rim planet, such as Beaumonde, signed an armistice and has H-bombs, the Alliance would be very polite, especially if Beaumonde, before and after the Unification War, is like S Korea after the Korean War, an important trading partner. Anyone claiming that the central planets captured the Rim's H-bombs needs to explain how the Alliance did that magic trick without being nuked.

Now imagine the Tams become national heroes of Beaumonde because of their trip to Miranda and the ass-whooping they gave the Alliance. Our heroes are heroes! The Alliance might think very carefully about killing the Tams. Killing might be the wrong move.



The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, April 16, 2012 5:38 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by two:
You sound like my great-grandma, who can't imagine the Apollo moon landings happened. She wants more proof. A round trip to Luna would be enough to change her mind.



No, because we have proof of the moon landing, there is no evidence within Firefly or Serenity to support your vision.

Quote:

Originally posted by two:The only Browncoats we know for sure disarmed after Serenity Valley were Mal and Zoe. As far as we know, other battles ended with cease fires. More war was possible. For a real example, see Korean War. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War


Again the Korean War is not a good analogue because of the outside factors. The US Civil War is much better especially when you considered it was a big part of Joss's inspiration in writing Firefly.

Because neither side crushed the other, the USA is careful about North Korea to this day. There is no war, but no treaty. Now imagine N Korea with H-bombs & ICBMs. The USA would be very, very careful.

Quote:

Originally posted by two:If a Rim planet, such as Beaumonde, signed an armistice and has H-bombs, the Alliance would be very polite, especially if Beaumonde, before and after the Unification War, is like S Korea after the Korean War, an important trading partner. Anyone claiming that the central planets captured the Rim's H-bombs needs to explain how the Alliance did that magic trick without being nuked.


Simple, turning over such weapons if they where used as part of the armistice. From what see it is very clear that the Independence lost the war almost completely. Stories tell use that Shadow was bombed into a black rock. Most planet would want to avoid that.

Plus Beaumonde as we see it in Serenity (novel) is under enough Alliance control for the Operative to pick up Fanty and Mingo and question them.

Quote:

Originally posted by two:Now imagine the Tams become national heroes of Beaumonde because of their trip to Miranda and the ass-whooping they gave the Alliance. Our heroes are heroes! The Alliance might think very carefully about killing the Tams. Killing might be the wrong move.


Okay, I would not read past the description, nor watch that story. The whole thing that set Firefly apart is that it was not about hero's that change the 'Verse. It was about people who lost a war and them having to exist within that reality. The movie was understandable, but still did not bring down the Alliance.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Monday, April 16, 2012 6:43 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

If Earth is dead, it kills possible stories. Who wants to oversimplify the Verse? Where is the fun in that?



Kills possible stories, but this way the impact of the main myth arc isn't lessened. If they could have just left any time, the villains become a laughable threat and there's no reason to confront them. If there's no reason to confront them then the deaths, past and probable future, become pointless.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 2:21 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Again the Korean War is not a good analogue because of the outside factors. The US Civil War is much better especially when you considered it was a big part of Joss's inspiration in writing Firefly.

The Rebels were back in charge of Virginia 4 years after the War. Virginia was back in Congress in 5 years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstruction_Era_of_the_United_States

20 years after the War, 1884, a Democrat was President. The Civil War analogy would have the Independents in control of some Rim planets in 4 years after War and controlling the Central Planets in 20.

Once the Civil War Reconstruction was over, the Northerner Army withdrew until the Civil Rights clashes of the next century. If the same happens on the Rim, the Alliance has already started withdrawing before the movie, Serenity.

If the Tams pick a planet to live on where the Alliance is withdrawing, the natives will be friendly. I see why the Alliance has Operatives assassins -- to surgically strike inside territory that the Alliance doesn't control after the Army withdraws. If they did control it, the Alliance would be using the local courts and police. See the history of Reconstruction, where Republicans took charge and then lost control.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 3:49 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by two:
20 years after the War, 1884, a Democrat was President. The Civil War analogy would have the Independents in control of some Rim planets in 4 years after War and controlling the Central Planets in 20.

Once the Civil War Reconstruction was over, the Northerner Army withdrew until the Civil Rights clashes of the next century. If the same happens on the Rim, the Alliance has already started withdrawing before the movie, Serenity.



I did not realize we live in the United Confederate States of America...oh we don't! I can see pockets of Independent resistance holding up on some planets after the end of the war. Thing is Virginia being back in congress does not equate to a take over, it equates to acceptance. Democrat does not equal and never did equal rebel. After the civil war we had a single country under a single federal government.

Even if former Independence’s planets sent representatives to parliament and gain influence, it would still be the Alliance Government.

Quote:

Originally posted by two:
If the Tams pick a planet to live on where the Alliance is withdrawing, the natives will be friendly. I see why the Alliance has Operatives assassins -- to surgically strike inside territory that the Alliance doesn't control after the Army withdraws. If they did control it, the Alliance would be using the local courts and police. See the history of Reconstruction, where Republicans took charge and then lost control.



We see the use of local police, and the use of local courts is not very hard to imagine. The Alliance government is not going to allow them to be used for people it really wants tried.

You also may see the natives turning the Tams over in fear of the Alliance. If the Alliance held the planet once they could do it again. In the end we only see a lack of direct Alliance control on the Rim planets that have little means to live let alone fend off the Alliance military.



I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 4:32 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
After the civil war we had a single country under a single federal government.

If the Alliance held the planet once they could do it again. In the end we only see a lack of direct Alliance control on the Rim planets that have little means to live let alone fend off the Alliance military.

A second Unification War is possible, but there wasn't a second Civil War in the US. While President Grant suppressed the KKK through the Force Acts, other paramilitary insurgents organized, including the White League in 1874, active in Louisiana; and the Red Shirts, active in Mississippi and the Carolinas. They used intimidation and outright attacks to run Republicans out of office and repress voting by blacks, leading to Rebels regaining power by the elections of the mid-to-late 1870s.

The Republicans lost the South for a century. The Civil War Reconstruction failed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstruction_Era_of_the_United_States

If Joss Whedon followed Civil War history, the Browncoats would eventually control their own planets.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 6:18 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by two:
A second Unification War is possible, but there wasn't a second Civil War in the US. While President Grant suppressed the KKK through the Force Acts, other paramilitary insurgents organized, including the White League in 1874, active in Louisiana; and the Red Shirts, active in Mississippi and the Carolinas. They used intimidation and outright attacks to run Republicans out of office and repress voting by blacks, leading to Rebels regaining power by the elections of the mid-to-late 1870s.

The Republicans lost the South for a century. The Civil War Reconstruction failed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstruction_Era_of_the_United_States

If Joss Whedon followed Civil War history, the Browncoats would eventually control their own planets.



The South does not control a single state in the US, the South, as in the Confederacy, does not exist anymore. So, not following Civil War history the Browncoats would not control planets.

Again Republican does not equal the North and Democrat does not equal the South.

I don't think there could be another Unification War. Far before any one could build up the resources to do that the Alliance would stop them. Your not going to build an army that big and keep it a secrete.

Even if a Planet managed to revolt and kick the Alliance off of it the Alliance would still have the power to simple bombard the planet from space. Unless that planet has enough ships to defend it as well.

It seems you believe that the Alliance will come after Simon and River after Miranda full force for no good reason and unless there is some power to hide or protect them they will die. I think if you believe the Alliance will try and take revenge at all costs you have to accept the fact Simon and River are doomed.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 6:18 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Gorram double post!

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 8:51 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Gorram double post!

Wasn't the Unification War over slavery? (There are slaves in the 'Verse.)

I'm certain the American Civil War was over slavery. (Some argue it was the states' right to slavery. Close to the same thing.)

If I got the motivation for the Unification War correct, Joss Whedon made the Browncoats anti-slavery and the Alliance pro-slavery. Too bad the wrong side won. Topsy-turvy 'Verse.

Not a good place for Simon and River unless Joss Whedon makes the 'Verse story similar to Civil War Reconstruction -- after some years, the Republicans' Northern Army (Alliance) leaves because of the great expense and Southerners (Browncoats) vote the Republicans out of political office in the Southern states only. Freedom is restored by the ballot box, not war.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 11:23 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by two:
Wasn't the Unification War over slavery? (There are slaves in the 'Verse.)

I'm certain the American Civil War was over slavery. (Some argue it was the states' right to slavery. Close to the same thing.)

If I got the motivation for the Unification War correct, Joss Whedon made the Browncoats anti-slavery and the Alliance pro-slavery. Too bad the wrong side won. Topsy-turvy 'Verse.

Not a good place for Simon and River unless Joss Whedon makes the 'Verse story similar to Civil War Reconstruction -- after some years, the Republicans' Northern Army (Alliance) leaves because of the great expense and Southerners (Browncoats) vote the Republicans out of political office in the Southern states only. Freedom is restored by the ballot box, not war.



Nothing in Firefly nor Serenity indicates that the Unification War was about Slavery. Everything states that the Independents were fighting to stay free of Alliance control. Slavery is mentioned once that I know of and that was in "Shindig", but gave no indication if it was legal or not.

So you have the reasons for the Unification war wrong.

The Verse is not a good place for River and Simon, that is part of the shows drama and why the Alliance is scary.

I will ask if you just ignore part of what I say or you just don't understand it. Republican did not equal north during the time of reconstruction. Republicans were voted out in the South because they took a much harder stand against the South then the Democrats did.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 1:27 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I do find Two's scenario highly unlikely, but even so, even though its not how I see the verse, I'd give such a story a go, it isn't breaking any cardinal rules for stories-I-read, so why not. That's just me.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Wednesday, September 25, 2013 8:25 PM

OONJERAH


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:
With Doctor Mathias gone, and substantial knowledge from their
experiments so far, the Academy might continue to train psychic
assassins in a more humane way ... could be a doctor, even a
psychiatrist, who sees that humane training would help to insure
loyalty.

Don't think Joss would agree, though. No.



Oonj, I think Joss Whedon was interested in revealing to us US GOV'T programs that had actually happened, have supposedly been scrapped, but which probably are still ongoing.

I direct you to the Family Jewels Report, MKULTRA, MKDELTA.

Quote:

Funding of behavior modification research on unwitting US citizens, including unscientific, non-consensual human experiments.(see also Project MKULTRA)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Jewels_%28Central_Intelligence_Age
ncy%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKULTRA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKDELTA

Quote:

MKDELTA, and its associated program MKULTRA, were mind control and interrogation operations run by the Central Intelligence Agency.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Men_Who_Stare_at_Goats

Quote:

The Men Who Stare at Goats (2004) is a book by Jon Ronson about the U.S. Army's exploration of New Age concepts and the potential military applications of the paranormal. The title refers to attempts to kill goats by staring at them. Research was carried out in part by Jon Ronson, but also by documentary filmmaker John Sergeant.

The book examines connections between military programs and psychological techniques being used for interrogation in the War on Terror. The book traces the evolution of these covert activities over the past three decades, and sees how they are alive today within U.S. Homeland Security and the Iraq War. It examines the use of the theme tune to Barney & Friends on Iraqi prisoners-of-war, the smuggling of a hundred de-bleated goats into the Special Forces command center at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, and the connection between the U.S. military and the mass-suicide of members of the Heaven's Gate cult in San Diego.



There are some very dark rabbit holes out there.



Very dark indeed!

Does no good to try to inform me, Byte. Whooosh! Over my head.
I am a professional Ostrich.


"Becker explained how Dr. Joseph Sharp of the Walter Reed Army Institute
of Research developed an analog pulse that successfully beamed an otherwise
unheard word directly into the brain. Sharp had, essentially, created what
would become voice to skull technology and, in effect, what could be mis-
interpreted as telepathic communication."

Above paragraph from article titled, "The Human Hypothesis for Some
Reports of Alien Abduction: Trauma, Covert Research Projects and Non-
Lethal Weapons,"
on: Credible info on incredible topics
http://www.ufotrail.blogspot.com/2011/10/human-hypothesis-for-some-rep
orts-of.html


However, as the paragraph above claims that our spooks & schientists
can, since 1985, project a word(s) into my head ... interesting, but
I never heard of it.

BUT, if our CIA has all this powerful tech to influence the human mind (as
the article describes) ... would we not use it to achieve global domination
instead of bankrupting our country with endless shooting wars??
Or does the continuous distraction of wars help to smoke screen what we
are really doing? ... And why all the damn waterboarding?

MKULTRA :>
FIREFLY CANCELLED FOR HITTING ON THE TRUTH!
Posted by: TRUTHISHERE. Sunday, June 25, 2006
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=2&tid=15603#218242

========================= :>

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Thursday, September 26, 2013 4:15 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


One of two things would have happened:

1) The Alliance hires Niska to torture Simon in front of River as a warning to behave or;

B) Simon escapes with the help of a rag-tag crew (in another Firefly ship, same one that helped break out River) as he prearranged with that crew. Reason why I think he had this contingency plan all set to go, one word, Ariel.

I'm going with option B.


SGG

Quote:

Originally posted by THESOMNAMBULIST:
What would have happened to Simon had he and River been caught? River, I imagine would have been taken back to the academy, but what about Simon? Would he have been sent to jail. or something more severe...? Indeed is there any reference to the death penalty in the Verse ?


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