GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

1985 film Firefly fans should check out.

POSTED BY: CAPNRAHN
UPDATED: Friday, April 30, 2004 06:43
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Wednesday, April 28, 2004 8:15 PM

CAPNRAHN


And I am speaking of the - now classic, in my opinion, "Silverado".

Starring the likes of: Kevin Kline, Scott Glenn, a very young looking Kevin Costner, and Danny Glover as Mal. {check his costume!}

Including these notables: Rosanna Arquette, John Cleese, Brian Dennehy, Jeff Goldblum and Linda Hunt.

This film is very Firefly in my opinion. I have not read if Joss has quoted this or its 'base' - Akira Kurosawa's "Shichinin no Samurai" aka "The Magnificent Seven" (1954) as inspiration - but I bet one or both are.


"Remember, there is only ONE absolute - There ARE NO absolutes!!!"

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Wednesday, April 28, 2004 8:40 PM

GUNHAND


I definately agree with you there. Silverado is one of my favorite Westerns of all time. On the short list with the likes of The Outlaw Josey Wales and Tombstone.

Very fine movie indeed.

"Pain is scary..."

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Wednesday, April 28, 2004 10:05 PM

QUICKSAND


GREAT movie.... but you should really list any Western as "Firefly" inspiration... particularly the fun ones. Not John Wayne-- he had a tendency to be hatin' on our Native American bruthas.

"Tombstone," on the other hand... rawk.

"Silverado" had great characters and character-interaction (it's Lawrence Kasdan, who helped with 'Empire Strikes Back,' among many other things) ... but Kevin Costner's character, the womanizing wild card, is absent from Firefly, just as Kaylee, the heart of 'Serenity' is missing from "Silverado."

I gotta check on Danny Glover's costume though, that's funny. Great flick, I should go watch that again, actually.


\ o /
------------ (Qs)

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Thursday, April 29, 2004 2:17 AM

ZOID



Gunhand:

How could you possibly omit the greatest Western of all time: "The Unforgiven".

Hollowed out ex-badman (Clint Eastwood) goes to aid of prostitutes and winds up giving overdue comeuppance to bully gubmint type (Gene Hackman). Morgan Freeman gives a credible performance in a supporting role, as does the actor who plays 'The Schofield Kid' (blind as a bat, Billy Bonney wannabe).

But -- speaking as a former slave of demon rum -- when justice is required and Munny (Eastwood) starts and finishes a bottle of whiskey to get himself in the murderous mood he knows will result, that sequence was the truest I've ever seen in a movie. Some folks get happy when they have a few, others do dumb stuff and pass out; some -- like Munny and my former self -- get sharper until someone winds up getting cut. The transformation of Munny from kindly father, grieving widower and poor pig farmer into the snake-eyed killer he had been prior to his wife's redemption of him, was one of the most compelling performances ever given by a cinematic actor.

Hackman's no slouch as the affable (yet malicious) psychopathic sheriff with a penchant for beating the life out of defenseless men.

Best exchange:
"I don't deserve to die like this."

"We all deserve to die."

"I'll see you in hell, William Munny."

"Yeah." (beat, beat, beat) BOOM.

Authentic guns and costumes, too.


Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

(Of River) "Little Sis? I could see big things for her all along. Her and her brother both. I always knew they'd be worth something, y'know?"

- Jayne Cobb, Game Warden and co-proprietor, "Cretaceous Park", Hera; from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Thursday, April 29, 2004 2:36 AM

GUNHAND


Well Zoid, to be honest "Unforgiven" is probably one of the most beautifully shot westerns ever made, great acting, good cast but...I have a completely irrational aversion to it. I know it's great, I want to like it, I should like it, but when I went to see it in the theater there was all sorts of bad stuff going on with me and it tainted it for me forever pretty much.

Which is completely irrational, I've seen it since on cable and whatnot, and seen the whole thing. Just in pieces. Never watched it all the way through at one sitting because of the bad vibes.

Eastwood and Hackman are probably two of the finest living American actors, and I don't begrudge their work at all in it. But the fact remains I can't sit through it for more than 15-20 minutes at a stretch.

Doesn't make any sort of logical sense, but just the way it is.

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around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
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Thursday, April 29, 2004 3:55 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


I really like "Silverado". They play it on AMC about once a month now, and I catch it whenever I can.

Quicksand wrote:

Quote:

Not John Wayne-- he had a tendency to be hatin' on our Native American bruthas.


Don't hate on the Duke!

Seriously though, John Wayne never wrote the scripts, he just acted in the movies. Sure, all of his earlier movies depicted Native Americans as savage killers bent on scalping settlers, but then again, all westerns from that area stereotyped Native Americans that way.

In John Wayne's later films, once he was a big name star and had more control over such things, the NAs were cast as a people oppressed by an expanding American gov't, a people simply fighting for survival. John Wayne was always a big proponent of protecting the rights of the Native Americans.

Back on topic, there are many westerns that have that "Firefly" feel to them, or could have been used for inspiration for Firefly. Fistful of Dollars & For a Few Dollars More w/ Clint Eastwood. Shadow Riders w/ Tom Selleck & Sam Elliott is another good one about brothers who fought on opposite sides of the Civil War. The list goes on and on.


"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Thursday, April 29, 2004 4:14 AM

GUNHAND


I'd forgotten about "Shadow Riders", that movie actually surprised me. I though it was going to be fairly decent but probably not anything to write home about...and here I am writing about it.

Of course I should have known better, I mean Sam Elliot, he's the man.

Another recent one I saw that I was pleasently surprised with was "Jericho". Not a classic but worth the time spent watching it. Especially for R. Lee Ermy's portrayal of a U.S. Marshall. Why no one ever cast him in a Western before (at least one I heard of) eludes me. Seems like a no brainer and he did a fine job in it.



~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"

My eerie-ass website:
http://gunhandsfirefly.homestead.com/Index.html

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Thursday, April 29, 2004 4:20 AM

KUGELBLITZ


Well, if you want to see something with some terrific chinese cultural bits in it, and some pretty good action scenes-watch "The Sand Pebbles". It is set in the 1930s in China and is simply terrific. You could infer about the San Pueblo being a rough equivalent to the Serenity, but it doesn't quite work. Still, it is an an excellent character piece.

"We are exporting democracy because we have all of this unused democracy lying around at home. Why not make some money doing it?"

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Thursday, April 29, 2004 4:24 AM

SHINY


I believe somewhere in the DVD commentaries, someone mentions the magnificent seven -- I think in reference to HoG...

Please help Haken keep this site running by occasionally clicking on some of the sponsored ad links on the side of the page!

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Thursday, April 29, 2004 5:24 AM

JUSTME


All this talk got me to thinking of one of my favorite movies and a RPG I usta' play.
The movie is "Quigley Down Under" with Tom Selleck. Quirky humor, thrillin' heroics, Alliance troops (the Redcoats), defending the oppressed, alien world (1850's Australia), prostitutes - all the important Firefly stuff. Mathew Quigley comes across as a kind of cross between Jayne and Mal - Jayne's size and skills, Mal's sense of humor and morals.

The RPG is Space:1889. I can easily see adding the Ethership Serenity to that (if I ever get a chance to play again)

Have to agree with all about Unforgiven and Silverado.

JustMe

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Thursday, April 29, 2004 5:42 AM

BADGERSHAT


Quote:

Originally posted by BrownCoat1:

Quicksand wrote:

Quote:

Not John Wayne-- he had a tendency to be hatin' on our Native American bruthas.


Don't hate on the Duke!

Seriously though, John Wayne never wrote the scripts, he just acted in the movies. Sure, all of his earlier movies depicted Native Americans as savage killers bent on scalping settlers, but then again, all westerns from that area stereotyped Native Americans that way.

In John Wayne's later films, once he was a big name star and had more control over such things, the NAs were cast as a people oppressed by an expanding American gov't, a people simply fighting for survival. John Wayne was always a big proponent of protecting the rights of the Native Americans.





Um... this is one of the few times where I have to disagree with Broancoat1. John Wayne may have later become a defender of the Native American, but he's ALSO quoted (more than once) saying some rather un-nice stuff...

... such as "Of course we were justified in taking their land. Many people came to this country, and needed land, and the Indians were selfishly trying to keep it all to themselves"...

Great actor? Sure. Eternally sensitive to the plight of the Native Americans? Not so much...

Movie westerns have never been my thing, although I absolutely LOVE "Tombstone."



--The Hat (or is it now "Jefe" with a little accent mark?)

***************************
"I like smackin 'em"--Jayne

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Thursday, April 29, 2004 5:44 AM

LIZ


i'm sure you guys all know this already, but just in case... Fistful of dollars is a remake of Kurosawa's Yojimbo.

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Thursday, April 29, 2004 5:48 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:

Originally posted by Kugelblitz:
Well, if you want to see something with some terrific chinese cultural bits in it, and some pretty good action scenes-watch "The Sand Pebbles". It is set in the 1930s in China and is simply terrific. You could infer about the San Pueblo being a rough equivalent to the Serenity, but it doesn't quite work. Still, it is an an excellent character piece.

"We are exporting democracy because we have all of this unused democracy lying around at home. Why not make some money doing it?"



Excellent movie Kuge. Steve McQueen played the main character, whose name escapes me. I have not seen that movie in several years. Good movie though.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Thursday, April 29, 2004 5:54 AM

EMBERS


Re: Unforgiven
Quote:

Originally posted by Gunhand:
I have a completely irrational aversion to it.


Personally I was just creeped out by the whole crippling Clint Eastwood thing...
I can't watch a second of that film again for that reason!

But I thought 'Firefly' might be partly drawn from 'Gunsmoke'...
you know,
with Inara as Miss Kitty
?

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Thursday, April 29, 2004 5:57 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


BadgersHat wrote:

Quote:

Um... this is one of the few times where I have to disagree with Broancoat1. John Wayne may have later become a defender of the Native American, but he's ALSO quoted (more than once) saying some rather un-nice stuff...

... such as "Of course we were justified in taking their land. Many people came to this country, and needed land, and the Indians were selfishly trying to keep it all to themselves"...

Great actor? Sure. Eternally sensitive to the plight of the Native Americans? Not so much...



Not saying I doubt your word or anything Hat, but I have never heard that quote from John Wayne and I am interested in where you found it & the credibility of the source.


"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Thursday, April 29, 2004 5:59 AM

BEATLE


Any John Wayne movie. My favs are 'The Searchers', 'The Cowboys', 'The Shootist'.

The others I put high on my western list are 'Lonesome Dove' and 'Shane'.

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Thursday, April 29, 2004 6:23 AM

BADGERSHAT


I saw an episode of some Biography show a while back, about Western flicks in general.

Also, there's a hi-larious book called "The 776 Stupidest Things Ever Said" from a few years back. His quote is there (with the source, when, where, etc). All the quotes in the book are, unfortunately for the speakers, TRUE... some are pretty awful, too.

--The Hat/Jefé

***************************
"I like smackin 'em"--Jayne

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Thursday, April 29, 2004 7:16 AM

GUNRUNNER


Quote:

Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
Steve McQueen played the main character, whose name escapes me.



Jake Holman. Fantastic movie!

Also on the John Wayne thing, it is true that he bad mouth minorities, I remember seeing footage of him doing it on a PBS documentary.

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Thursday, April 29, 2004 7:25 AM

KERNELM


Quote:

Originally posted by CapnRahn:
And I am speaking of the - now classic, in my opinion, "Silverado".

Starring the likes of: Kevin Kline, Scott Glenn, a very young looking Kevin Costner, and Danny Glover as Mal. {check his costume!}

Including these notables: Rosanna Arquette, John Cleese, Brian Dennehy, Jeff Goldblum and Linda Hunt.

This film is very Firefly in my opinion. I have not read if Joss has quoted this or its 'base' - Akira Kurosawa's "Shichinin no Samurai" aka "The Magnificent Seven" (1954) as inspiration - but I bet one or both are.


Kurosawa's "Shichinin no Samurai" is commonly known as "The Seven Samurai". I've never seen anybody refer to it as "The Magnificent Seven" since that's the title of the 1960 Western remake. (Actually, hrm, IMDB does list that an an alternate title, but that's really stupid because of the existence of the other movie.)

HoG definitely has a very "Seven Samurai" feel to it.

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Thursday, April 29, 2004 7:26 AM

DRAGONFLYDIRECTOR


Hummm, have you noticed that really good westerns have a tendacy to be 'based', either in part or fully, on Kurosawa's "Shichinin no Samurai" {The Magnificent Seven}?

If you haven't see it - WOW, you need to!

Love "Quigly Downunder" and Larua SanGiacomo ... sigh!

"Observe Analyze & Respond"
Motto of the A.P.E.s
Alliance Protean Engineers


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Thursday, April 29, 2004 7:31 AM

KUGELBLITZ


Y'know... "Outland" with Sean Connery and Frances Sternhagen is a very western/sci-fi movie. It is essentially "High Noon" set on a mining colony on Titan. That fets in very nicely with the FF oeuvre, hell if the Serenity were to stop off there, I couldn't see any real clashes between the the two movie styles (maybe some minor tech stuff).

"We are exporting democracy because we have all of this unused democracy lying around at home. Why not make some money doing it?"

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Thursday, April 29, 2004 7:42 AM

SKYDANCE


OMG! Silverado! What a classic! *laughs*

Danny Glover might wear the brown coat, but Kevin Kline is definitely The Mal. I mean, seriously, think about how Kline got caught: he stopped to save the dog?

"It worked out in the end. The dog sprung me."

Such a great movie. *chuckles*

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Thursday, April 29, 2004 7:54 AM

DRAGONFLYDIRECTOR


Quote:

Originally posted by Skydance:
OMG! Silverado! What a classic! *laughs*

Danny Glover might wear the brown coat, but Kevin Kline is definitely The Mal. I mean, seriously, think about how Kline got caught: he stopped to save the dog?

"It worked out in the end. The dog sprung me."

Such a great movie. *chuckles*



Fro me, I see Kevin Kline's part more like Book than Mal. A man trying to live past his violent history.

I do agree that Danny Glover wasn't 'our' Mal, but his clothes surely were. Red shirt, dust brown 'high' pants and suspenders and of course - the duster.

Heh, wasn't Jeff Fayhey {Dennhey's 'OddJob'} really good in the film too?

"Observe Analyze & Respond"
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Thursday, April 29, 2004 8:30 AM

CAPTAINCDC


Silverado, The Outlaw Josey Wales, and Tombstone are all quality flicks but I would not say they are classics. I know there are a lot of John Wayne critics on this site but he was in some the best movies/westerns ever made: Rio Bravo, The Sons of Katie Elder, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, Red River just to name a few. And The Searchers and Stagecoach are two of the best movies of all time IMO. Also, if you are looking for a particular western that may have influenced Joss more than any other I would say it would have to be Stagecoach. The themes are very similar to me.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Thursday, April 29, 2004 8:50 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Not what I would call the greatest western of all time, but if it's Firefly-like Westerns you're looking for, I got one.

"Two Mules for Sister Sara"

Now. After you fellas pick yourselves up from falling on the floor laughing, here's some food for thought:

Whore who pretends to be a righteous upstanding nun played by the lovely and fiesty Shirley MacLaine.

Nefarious-type gun slinger with a mind for larceny and an eye for a pretty face, played by none other than the man himself, Clint Eastwood.

Big bad man - French, not Mexican for a change - bent on terrorizing an entire countryside.

Mexican Rebels bent on saving countryside from the big bad Frenchie.

Gunfire, horses, theivery, lust, and do-gooding topped off with really bad whiskey. Doesn't get any more Firefly than that.

I once watched "Rio Bravo" very late at night with my father and that movie will forever remain in my heart as my all-time favorite western.

As for Tombstone, I have only one thing to say -
Val Kilmer as Doc Holiday, "I'm your huckleberry."

hoo-SHA

We have art so as not to die of truth ~ Neitzsche
http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922

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Thursday, April 29, 2004 9:07 AM

CAPNRAHN


Spot on Channain!!! I am right there with ya!

"Remember, there is only ONE absolute - There ARE NO absolutes!!!"

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Thursday, April 29, 2004 11:05 AM

GUNHAND


Quote:

Originally posted by justme:
All this talk got me to thinking of one of my favorite movies and a RPG I usta' play.
The movie is "Quigley Down Under" with Tom Selleck. Quirky humor, thrillin' heroics, Alliance troops (the Redcoats), defending the oppressed, alien world (1850's Australia), prostitutes - all the important Firefly stuff. Mathew Quigley comes across as a kind of cross between Jayne and Mal - Jayne's size and skills, Mal's sense of humor and morals.

The RPG is Space:1889. I can easily see adding the Ethership Serenity to that (if I ever get a chance to play again)

Have to agree with all about Unforgiven and Silverado.

JustMe



"Quigley Down Under" is a pretty good movie too, Alan Rickman as an ebil, yes I said ebil, ranch owner just made me grin a lot. Although the whole time I was waiting for him to say,"Because a spoon hurts more."

Space: 1889 is also a very cool game, never got as much publicity as it should but I ran it a while back and a good time was had by all, even if the Jack the Ripper Goes to Mars bit I ran sorta creepified everyone. But that was the point.

And for y'all that liked "Tombstone" (the flick) too, well in Tombstone (the town) the old Central Hotel is still up and running but they re-named it Big Nose Kate's (for Doc's girlfriend) and if that isn't just cool enough if you order one of their 40 oz. steaks the first draft is a nickle. The Birdcage Theatre is still there too, but it's a museum now. Oh well.

I happen to live in Cochise County, Arizona so I get me a 40 oz. steak and nickle draft pretty regularlike.

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"

My eerie-ass website:
http://gunhandsfirefly.homestead.com/Index.html

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Thursday, April 29, 2004 12:26 PM

BADGERSHAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Channain:
... As for Tombstone, I have only one thing to say -
Val Kilmer as Doc Holiday, "I'm your huckleberry."

hoo-SHA

We have art so as not to die of truth ~ Neitzsche
http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922




... I got two guns, one for each o'ya...

--The Hat/Jefé

***************************
"I like smackin 'em"--Jayne

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Thursday, April 29, 2004 12:41 PM

GUNHAND


There are so many quotable Doc lines from "Tombstone" could go on all day. But I won't.

For my part I think that's the best performance Val Kilmer ever did.

And Michael Bien as Johnny Ringo, if his "Hell Follow With Me" speechifying, complete with crazy eyes and psychotic grin doesn't get ya, well then nothing will.

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"

My eerie-ass website:
http://gunhandsfirefly.homestead.com/Index.html

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Thursday, April 29, 2004 12:45 PM

KERNELM


Quote:

Originally posted by DragonFlyDirector:
Hummm, have you noticed that really good westerns have a tendacy to be 'based', either in part or fully, on Kurosawa's "Shichinin no Samurai" {The Magnificent Seven}?

If you haven't see it - WOW, you need to!


Indeed. Great movie. There's also plenty of movies based on "Yojimbo" and "Sanjuro" too (most notably "A Fistful of Dollars".

Actually though, the influence goes both ways. Kurosawa's samurai films was influenced greatly by earlier Westerns, and he in turn greatly influenced later Westerns.

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Thursday, April 29, 2004 2:59 PM

DRAGONFLYDIRECTOR


Egg-Zactly and the cycle continues...

"Observe Analyze & Respond"
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Thursday, April 29, 2004 5:50 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.


Silverado was OK. But the two westerns that bring Firefly to mind for me are, The Searchers with John Wayne as Ethan Edwards and The Outlaw Josey Wales.

Ethan Edwards has a lot of characateristics that bring Mal to mind, especially the "Dark Mal" that we didn't get to really see on TV. He never officially surrendered at the end of the civil war. He's tough as nails and is meaner than an angry snake. Mal's knowledge of Reavers reminded me of his knowledge of the Commanche.

The plot of Josey Wales reminds me of Firefly. You have this civil war vet, who refused to surrender, and ends up the protector of a mixed bag people moving west.

As I write this Rooster Cogburn is on AMC and Katherine Hepurn's character is saying prayers over the men they just shot. Seemed rater "Bookish" to me.

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Friday, April 30, 2004 5:40 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:

Originally posted by Channain:
Not what I would call the greatest western of all time, but if it's Firefly-like Westerns you're looking for, I got one.

"Two Mules for Sister Sara"

Now. After you fellas pick yourselves up from falling on the floor laughing, here's some food for thought:

Whore who pretends to be a righteous upstanding nun played by the lovely and fiesty Shirley MacLaine.

Nefarious-type gun slinger with a mind for larceny and an eye for a pretty face, played by none other than the man himself, Clint Eastwood.

Big bad man - French, not Mexican for a change - bent on terrorizing an entire countryside.

Mexican Rebels bent on saving countryside from the big bad Frenchie.

Gunfire, horses, theivery, lust, and do-gooding topped off with really bad whiskey. Doesn't get any more Firefly than that.



Excellent movie Channy, and overlooked by many as a western classic. I would say it is in my top ten favorite Eastwood movies.

Quote:

I once watched "Rio Bravo" very late at night with my father and that movie will forever remain in my heart as my all-time favorite western.

As for Tombstone, I have only one thing to say -
Val Kilmer as Doc Holiday, "I'm your huckleberry."

hoo-SHA



Rio Bravo was a western great. AMC plays it once evey month or so.

I liked Val Kilmer as Holiday in "Tombstone". I thought he acted circles around everyone else.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Friday, April 30, 2004 6:43 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


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Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
Excellent movie Channy, and overlooked by many as a western classic. I would say it is in my top ten favorite Eastwood movies.

it also never fails to make my father laugh.
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Rio Bravo was a western great. AMC plays it once evey month or so.
I have it on tape - I NEED it on DVD.
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I liked Val Kilmer as Holiday in "Tombstone". I thought he acted circles around everyone else.
He usually does, no matter what he's in. But as Doc Holliday, he was AMAZING.

"Where's Wyatt?"
Doc: "Down at the river. Prob'ly walkin' on watah."

We have art so as not to die of truth ~ Neitzsche
http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922

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