GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Mal's issue with Companions &/or whores

POSTED BY: ANKHAGOGO
UPDATED: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 02:55
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Saturday, April 24, 2004 11:39 AM

ANKHAGOGO


Another thread got me to thinking about this: so why is Mal so against Companions &/or whoring?
Or is he not so much against Companion as a profession as he is against Inara specifically making a living that way?
No-one else seems to have a big issue with it --
Book doesn't appear to have any day to day issues with Inara, but he sure was taken off guard when he first met her.

Personally, I suspect part of Mal's issue with Companions is religious. He's rejected God, but often, the moral stuff you learn when you're small is the hardest to reject.
Another part of Mal's Companion issue is, I think, the fact that he wants to be more than friends with Inara, and he doesn't like the idea of a woman he's (seriously) interested in sharing herself with random strangers. Perhaps it's a trust thing -- I wouldn't guess that Inara actually trusts all her clients,and that doesn't seem to be necessary for her, while I suspect that Mal doesn't randomly bed-hop because it
is necessary for him. Lord knows I don't believe it's because he doesn't get the offers........


"We're just happy to be doin' good works."

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Saturday, April 24, 2004 2:14 PM

ZOID


Ankhagogo:

Well, to borrow from the other thread, maybe Mal hates prostitution because his mother was a prostitute! He says his mom ran a 'ranch' (like the Palomino in Vegas?) with "about 40 hands" -- he never specifies that they were men, we just assume that -- and that they were like family to him. Maybe that's why he was so quick to help out the HoG girls: Because his mother was a whore, he felt an obligation to people he saw as family, so he offered Serenity's services for free. Maybe...

Nah. I'm just joshin'.

I reckon Mal might dislike prostitution because nobody should sell their body, and certainly not their intimacy. I think Mal was deeply attracted to Inara from first sight, and that it hurts him that she sells herself. It's not that she sells to others what he can't have; but that she is hurting herself. That's what tortures him. Even though she plays it off with a straight face, and he at least half believes her, he can sense that sex-for-money diminishes her.

Inara's crying scene in HoG could certainly be seen as evidence that Inara is not as nonchalant as her facade would indicate...


Respectfully (if somewhat playfully),

zoid
_________________________________________________

"River and me was best friends, back then. I named my first-born daughter after her. 'Course, you can't swing a dead cat 'round here on I-Day without hittin' a River..."

- Kaywinnit Tam, wife and mother of 6, A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Saturday, April 24, 2004 2:34 PM

GUNHAND


Zoid I think you're dead on with it being mostly an Inara issue and not an all encompasing anti-companion issue.

Plus I think he also sees it as going against...well not God anymore since he pretty much gave up on God, but against the whole concept of self. That is allowing someone else to own you, even for a short period of time, is just plain wrong to him.

If he were competely against companioning (can I use that as a verb?) and/or whoring, then I seriously doubt he would have helped the Heart of Gold girls out.

So my money is on it being an Inara Thing(tm) not a Companion/Whoring Thing.

Pain is scary...

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Saturday, April 24, 2004 2:38 PM

ZOID



Gunhand:

Thanks. Now let me see if I can't turn this into some sort of political statement...

I don't know what's gotten into me lately. I am such a boob...



Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"River and me was best friends, back then. I named my first-born daughter after her. 'Course, you can't swing a dead cat 'round here on I-Day without hittin' a River..."

- Kaywinnit Tam, wife and mother of 6, A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Saturday, April 24, 2004 2:43 PM

GUNHAND


Hehe, well my momma told me to never talk about politics or religion in public...

...unless they're Firefly politics and religion then I'm all over that.

Hell I talk Firefly politics and religion WITH my mom, she's a Browncoat too she just won't admit it.

Oh and she told me not to talk about boobs too.

My mom, she's wise and stuff.

Pain is scary...

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Saturday, April 24, 2004 3:09 PM

HOWDYROCKERBABY1


Quote:

Originally posted by Gunhand:

If he were competely against companioning (can I use that as a verb?) and/or whoring, then I seriously doubt he would have helped the Heart of Gold girls out.

Pain is scary...



I think Mal just out right does not agree with Prostitution or anything. I think Mal helped the Heart of Gold out because they kind of represent himself forgive me sounding like Hyde from that seventies show but i'm going to put it in these terms

"The Heart of Gold was being supressed by The Man, and this Man just happens to be very similar to Mal being suppressed by the government"
This is further proven when they Inara tells Mal that there is no government out there, they are all on their own, so the only Law is that SOB.

So in all essences Mal is helping himself, whether he sees it that way or not, its a subconsious thing.

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"Here's to Jayne, the box dropping man-ape-gone-wrong-thing"
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

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Saturday, April 24, 2004 3:10 PM

FIREFLYTHEMOVIE


Quote:

If he were competely against companioning (can I use that as a verb?) and/or whoring, then I seriously doubt he would have helped the Heart of Gold girls out.


I think he still would have. We all have degrees of freedom. While the people at the HoG are arguably giving away a good deal of what they already have, Rance Burgess was trying to take away even more. Although if he was really dead set against it, I doubt he would've had sex with Nandi. It's like he told Inara in Shindig: he doesn't respect what she does, but he does respect her as a person, and while Nandi and her girls are whores, they're still people.

{Edit} Simulpost with HowdyRockerBaby1.

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Saturday, April 24, 2004 4:16 PM

DELIA


I never really tried to analyze this before, just sort of accepted it as part of his character.

I do agree that it's more about Inara than the profession as a whole. But to look at it from that perspective . . .

Mal seems to value honesty (can't say that I can point to a particular scene to prove that, just a general impression). Companioning (if Wash and GunHand can use it as a verb, so can I, darn it) is about artiface and acting. He says as much to Inara in Shindig.

He also probably objects to it for the same reasons he objects to slavery (though I'm not 100% certain what those are). Inara sells herself, at least temporarily (Atherton refers to her as "bought and paid for"). That's got to be difficult thing to come to terms with in someone you care about.

Finally, I think calling her a whore, or diminishing what she does, is Mal's way of keeping some sort of barrier between them, picking fights to push her away when there's a danger of her getting too close.

I don't think it really has much to do with religion.

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Saturday, April 24, 2004 5:37 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


"...and while Nandi and her girls are whores, they're still people." BINGO! You just nailed it. ( no pun )

Who can say for sure what Mals intentions are and why he feels the way he does. Maybe he's just 'old school', and some hic from the farm. Perhaps he feels that, despite his attraction for Inara ( which is clearly not a 1 way street ) , he would not be able to 'afford ' her , and perhaps that is what annoys him so much. He sees her as all manner of fine and respectable, yet rich boys like in 'Shindig' get to own her , for a price. While Inara admits that dating is 'complicated' , it can occur. But from Mals perspective, when is Inara being sincere, and when is she ' on the clock' ? It does get a might complicated.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, April 24, 2004 8:08 PM

PURPLEBELLY


The question posed by this thread is problematic in that it seems to ignore the distinction between a courtesan and a prostitute. Malcolm Reynolds has a pragmatic approach to commerce, 'We do business', that is the prostitute's life. He has an antipathy towards the political influence and manipulation of interest that are part of the courtesan's life; entertaining people of power sometimes includes talking of that power

Or am I being too European?

PB

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Saturday, April 24, 2004 10:05 PM

INSIGHT SPINNER


Quote:

Originally posted by howdyrockerbaby1:

So in all essences Mal is helping himself, whether he sees it that way or not, its a subconsious thing.




BWAHAHAHA!! I'm sorry, that is just too funny, Mal helping himself.


Yep. Sure did.


insight spinner
__________

Just an object. It doesn't mean what you think....

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Sunday, April 25, 2004 2:16 PM

ANKHAGOGO


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
I reckon Mal might dislike prostitution because nobody should sell their body, and certainly not their intimacy. I think Mal was deeply attracted to Inara from first sight, and that it hurts him that she sells herself. It's not that she sells to others what he can't have; but that she is hurting herself. That's what tortures him. Even though she plays it off with a straight face, and he at least half believes her, he can sense that sex-for-money diminishes her.



While I definitely agree with you on a personal level that no-one should sell their body, I suspect that attitude is a build-up of hundreds of years of the influence of Western religion/culture on a sociological view, and is perhaps peculiarly American. You know,the whole "sex is special thing and it should alwaysmean something so you shouldn't sleep with just anyone" line -- which is a view most often influenced by some religion. But it definitely hasn't always been that way -- someone mentioned courteseans, which was a very good point to bring up. Courteseans were having sex with men and getting paid for it, but there was alot more to it. It is a very European thing, and it's fairly hard for me to actually understand,due to the growing up in a fairly puritan country, but I do kinda think that may be the vibe they're going for with Inara.

I don't think Inara truly believes it diminishes her to companion (heh). It appears to be a (mostly) well-respected profession, and I'm sure there are one million psych tests you have to take before even being admitted to the Academy, and probably follow-up tests at those yearly exams, to make absolutely sure you don't have any hangups about the whole thing.
Quote:


Inara's crying scene in HoG could certainly be seen as evidence that Inara is not as nonchalant as her facade would indicate...


Oh, I think she's nonchalant about her work as a whole -- but I believe that Inara was so upset because, after all his snarky little comments about Companions, Mal slept with Inara's dear friend, a former Companion and current whore, and yet he never makes advances to Inara at all. From a big giant girl point of view, what that comes across as is that Mal's ok with Companions and whores in general, he's just contemptuous of Inara herself. You know, "We're in the same business,which he says he hates and he jumped into bed with her easy enough,so there must be something wrong with me personally that he dislikes."


"We're just happy to be doin' good works."

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Sunday, April 25, 2004 2:35 PM

ANKHAGOGO


Quote:

Originally posted by Delia:
Mal seems to value honesty (can't say that I can point to a particular scene to prove that, just a general impression). Companioning (if Wash and GunHand can use it as a verb, so can I, darn it) is about artiface and acting. He says as much to Inara in Shindig.


This is a very good point that I'd totally forgotten about. Frankly, I personally have always wondered why Inara runs around the ship in her perfectly lovely gowns, all made-up and perfect when there's no-one but the crew there to see her. I'd be runnin' around in jeans and some trashy t-shirt as soon as we broke atmo.
It is a very artifical profession, and the fact that she keeps up the facade when she's among people I assume she considers friends is a little odd to me.
Interestingly, now that I'm thinking about it, the moment I started liking Inara was when she was dressed the most casually I can remember seeing her. It's in Our Mrs Reynolds, the whole "I only fell is all" scene -- she's got on a very simple dress-skirt combo that's really nothing like most everything else we see here in.
I'm kind of a costume dork, in the sense that I will often notice how clothing changes are meant to express some mood/attitude/important point we should be getting, and I think that was the whole point of that outfit -- to make her seem less stand-offish.

Quote:

Finally, I think calling her a whore, or diminishing what she does, is Mal's way of keeping some sort of barrier between them, picking fights to push her away when there's a danger of her getting too close.


I could not agree with you more, and maybe Inara's staying pretty all the time is part of her version of keeping Mal at a distance. When she's all dressed up, the difference in both station and education between her, and everyone else on the ship, is very obvious, and I find it a little off-putting. However, it doesn't really seem to bother any of the crewexceptMal. They're mostly not intimidated by her at all.
Someone said that maybe Mal thinks he can't "afford" her, which I took to mean he thinks she can do better than him, so he has no chance with her. I do kinda get that impression from Mal sometimes -- that he feels Inara couldn't possibly return his feelings because he's not rich, powerful, or educated.

"We're just happy to be doin' good works."

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Sunday, April 25, 2004 3:49 PM

ZOID


Delia wrote:
Quote:

Finally, I think calling her a whore, or diminishing what she does, is Mal's way of keeping some sort of barrier between them, picking fights to push her away when there's a danger of her getting too close.


Didn't your daddy ever tell you? When a boy's mean to you -- calls you names or sticks your pigtails in the inkwell -- it just means he likes you. I don't know about barriers; I think he just plain likes her, but doesn't know how to approach her because he likes her so much. He's got no problems with casual encounters like Nandi. The one that means something to him, though, is a different ball of wax.


Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"River and me was best friends, back then. I named my first-born daughter after her. 'Course, you can't swing a dead cat 'round here on I-Day without hittin' a River..."

- Kaywinnit Tam, wife and mother of 6, A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Sunday, April 25, 2004 3:55 PM

DELIA


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:

Didn't your daddy ever tell you? When a boy's mean to you -- calls you names or sticks your pigtails in the inkwell -- it just means he likes you. I don't know about barriers; I think he just plain likes her, but doesn't know how to approach her.



Actually, Zoid, it was my Mama who explained all that. (Though she left out the inkwell part). She also assures me that they grow out of it. . . but she never told me when. Maybe long around their 90th birthdays?


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Sunday, April 25, 2004 3:58 PM

DELIA


Quote:

Originally posted by Ankhagogo:
Frankly, I personally have always wondered why Inara runs around the ship in her perfectly lovely gowns, all made-up and perfect when there's no-one but the crew there to see her. I'd be runnin' around in jeans and some trashy t-shirt as soon as we broke atmo.



Okay, that had never occurred to me. It's an interesting point. I wonder, though, if her look would have causualed up as the show progressed, both as she got more comfortable with the crew and as the audience was expected to not need the visual reminder that she is who she is (so more for our benefit than hers).

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Sunday, April 25, 2004 4:05 PM

ZOID



Delia wrote:
Quote:

Actually, Zoid, it was my Mama who explained all that. (Though she left out the inkwell part). She also assures me that they grow out of it. . . but she never told me when. Maybe long around their 90th birthdays?


Wow, you're fast on the reply-side. I edited and was rereading when I saw you'd already responded (gulp)...

I don't know that men ever get over boyhood behavior, except artificially. We may put on airs, rationalize and alter our behavior; but at least part of our initial reaction to any situation is to behave childishly. I'm 45 and haven't cleansed myself of basic instinctive behavior; I just filter it (somewhat) better.

I suspect y'all 'distaff' types have got some childish instincts struggling to get free, too.


Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"River and me was best friends, back then. I named my first-born daughter after her. 'Course, you can't swing a dead cat 'round here on I-Day without hittin' a River..."

- Kaywinnit Tam, wife and mother of 6, A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Sunday, April 25, 2004 5:46 PM

ZOID


Ankhagogo wrote:
Quote:

While I definitely agree with you on a personal level that no-one should sell their body, I suspect that attitude is a build-up of hundreds of years of the influence of Western religion/culture on a sociological view, and is perhaps peculiarly American. You know,the whole "sex is special thing and it should alwaysmean something so you shouldn't sleep with just anyone" line -- which is a view most often influenced by some religion. But it definitely hasn't always been that way -- someone mentioned courteseans, which was a very good point to bring up. Courteseans were having sex with men and getting paid for it, but there was alot more to it. It is a very European thing, and it's fairly hard for me to actually understand,due to the growing up in a fairly puritan country, but I do kinda think that may be the vibe they're going for with Inara.


Sorry for the longish quote, but it seemed to be of a piece...

Okay, first: Undoubtedly, our society is based on the so-called Judeo-Christian ethic. According to this ethic, sex is an expression of intimacy between heterosexually married couples (please keep the laughing down, I'm trying to get through this). While the 'married' aspect or the 'heterosexual' aspect of the equation may be more or less variable by historical era, the 'intimacy' aspect seems to be deeply important. Many people find that even casual sex -- let alone sharing the act with a complete stranger for monetary or other material reward -- is deeply disturbing to them. This feeling seems to be shared by those who live in non-traditional relationships, too, either out-of-wedlock or same-sex orientation. Being monogamous and committed is culturally important. Having sex with (many) strangers for money violates this cultural imperative.

This is undoubtedly because of our cultural emphasis on the importance of the individual human being. Other cultures demphasize the individual; as such, 'kamikaze' (self-sacrifice) and prostitutive behaviors are acceptable and even valued. I am not judging those other ethoses; they appear to be viable (e.g. their civilizations thrive and grow) even if they are sometimes in diammetrical opposition to ours. The tendency to view one's own culture as superior to differing cultural value systems is called 'ethnocentrism' and is perfectly normal, so long as it's not taken to extremes.

Aside from that, I have known many women who claimed to be liberated from Judeo-Christian guilt, who nevertheless got 'moody' after sex, or who entertained ideas about marriage (see "sex is an expression of intimacy between heterosexually married couples", above) after one or two repeat encounters. My point is that we are products of our culture, whether we like it or not. What we learn as children is reinforced by every aspect of our culture as we live and mature. We learn what normal behavior is, and we judge our own worth by that cultural standard.

I'll leave that fascinating (I think) topic, and go on to Point Two: European courtesans were the product of a Judeo-Christian ethos, as well. The trick of being a courtesan was in doing what was culturally banned -- having sex out of wedlock with typically powerful, married men -- without getting caught out-and-out doing it. (For an interesting exploration of the complications of courtly life, read Pierre Choderlos de Laclos' novel of 1782, Les Liaisons Dangereuses available in English translation, or see any of the three movies based on it. I personally prefer 1988's Dangerous Liaisons with Glenn Close and John Malkovich) It was a dangerous balancing act for those who chose the lifestyle. Great power could be gained from successfully gambling one's chastity and reputation; great ruination could come to those who got caught with a losing hand. And don't forget the diseases of Venus (hence, 'venereal') were as wasting and fatal then, as our generation's are now. Before the advent of penicillin in the 1930's, one could scarcely think of a more gruesome death than one caused by syphillis (it eats your eyes and brain, yechh!).

My point is (again, in my very obscure way) European courtesans were playing against the grain of their culture's belief system. The ones who were good at playing the game became legendary -- like Jesse James, Bonnie and Clyde, or Bill Gates in American folklore -- but they were not strictly smiled upon by proper folks, and you'd certainly not invite them to Sunday dinner at your folks.

Today, the closest thing you'd find to a courtesan in our society would be a stripper. Not your average, run-of-the-mill stripper, mind you; but, the sort that are employed at the so-called 'gentlemen's clubs' of major metropolises; the kind that cater to an exclusive clientele, and employ only the most perfect physical specimens. There's a lot more sexual enticement going on in these places than there is actual sex. But, if a customer manages to find the right combination, he may 'pick the lock' of one or more of these girls. If he's a special kind of fellow, he may even marry one. Some few of these females find suitably affluent husbands through their trade, as was the case of the 18th century courtesans.

It's all very fascinating. But I think Inara's problem stems from the fact that she's being converted to Mal's (Judeo-Christian) belief system; that she subconsciously is beginning to suspect she has worth as an individual, and that her intimacy should not be sold. There are at least 3 separate instances from the show where Inara's facial expressions or spoken words indicate that a customer has injured her feelings, her heart, her inner child after a sexual encounter. The funny part is that Mal is an apostate (one who has lost his belief); but, it doesn't matter. Mal could no more stop being what his culture has made of him than he could wean himself off of breathing. He may shun God, but can't stop being a Southern boy with a Judeo-Christian cultural orientation.

And she loves him too, even though she can't understand why. Nandi saw it.



Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"River and me was best friends, back then. I named my first-born daughter after her. 'Course, you can't swing a dead cat 'round here on I-Day without hittin' a River..."

- Kaywinnit Tam, wife and mother of 6, A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Monday, April 26, 2004 4:18 AM

DELIA


Zoid,

Didn't mean to reply too quickly -- I'm in the middle (well, I'm pretty near the beginning) of a massive paper, so I'm on my computer all the time, and checking the boards is keeping me sane.

Delia

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Monday, April 26, 2004 4:53 AM

ZOID



Delia:

I was just teasin'. No offense taken and none intended toward you. Study hard.


Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

(Of River) "Little Sis? I could see big things for her all along. Her and her brother both. I always knew they'd be worth something, y'know?"

- Jayne Cobb, Game Warden and co-proprietor, "Cretaceous Park", Hera; from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Monday, April 26, 2004 4:55 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


I do think that Mal's apparent issue w/ Inara's profession is probably two fold. First off it is because it is the profession Inara has chosen. Mal obviously loves her, but either can't or won't admit it. I imagine it must be pretty difficult being interested in someone who regularly takes men to her bed for money. That and the two of them being from different worlds must make things harder than they should be for two people.

I think part of Mal's issue w/ prostitution might come from his perception of freedom. We see many examples of Mal doing anything to stay free, and we have seen the lengths he will go to in helping other people secure their freedom. His drive for freedom could cause him to view prostitution as some form of slavery or giving away of personal freedom.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Monday, April 26, 2004 5:56 AM

DELIA


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:

(Of River) "Little Sis? I could see big things for her all along. Her and her brother both. I always knew they'd be worth something, y'know?"

- Jayne Cobb, Game Warden and co-proprietor, "Cretaceous Park", Hera; from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard




OOOOHHHHH. New quote for the collection. Very exciting.

I wasn't offended. Just don't want you to think these terribly quick replies are going to last beyond the end of the semester.

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Monday, April 26, 2004 6:04 AM

JAHZARA


Quote:

Originally posted by Ankhagogo:
This is a very good point that I'd totally forgotten about. Frankly, I personally have always wondered why Inara runs around the ship in her perfectly lovely gowns, all made-up and perfect when there's no-one but the crew there to see her. I'd be runnin' around in jeans and some trashy t-shirt as soon as we broke atmo.
It is a very artifical profession, and the fact that she keeps up the facade when she's among people I assume she considers friends is a little odd to me.
Interestingly, now that I'm thinking about it, the moment I started liking Inara was when she was dressed the most casually I can remember seeing her. It's in Our Mrs Reynolds, the whole "I only fell is all" scene -- she's got on a very simple dress-skirt combo that's really nothing like most everything else we see here in.
I'm kind of a costume dork, in the sense that I will often notice how clothing changes are meant to express some mood/attitude/important point we should be getting, and I think that was the whole point of that outfit -- to make her seem less stand-offish.

I could not agree with you more, and maybe Inara's staying pretty all the time is part of her version of keeping Mal at a distance. When she's all dressed up, the difference in both station and education between her, and everyone else on the ship, is very obvious, and I find it a little off-putting. However, it doesn't really seem to bother any of the crewexceptMal. They're mostly not intimidated by her at all.
Someone said that maybe Mal thinks he can't "afford" her, which I took to mean he thinks she can do better than him, so he has no chance with her. I do kinda get that impression from Mal sometimes -- that he feels Inara couldn't possibly return his feelings because he's not rich, powerful, or educated.

"We're just happy to be doin' good works."



Okay, here's hoping I haven't edited your quote enough to not make sense.

I always saw Inara as gliding around Serenity in all of the expensive clothes as perfectly natural, especially for the character. Although next to nothing is known about her childhood or "companion training" it can be assumed that Inara's from a well born family. This can be evidenced by the fact that she was born on Shinon
and people are a lot richer there. Remember Zoe's comment in Ariel about everybody being happy and rich in the Core?

It could be a series of combinations that keep Inara from dressing down, beside the visual asthetics and contrast she plays to the rest of the crew. It could be her upbringing (it's never really crossed her mind to dress down), her training (she feels more comfortable or her costume could help keep her composure, or artificiality, as you said), or simply part of the elegance that we love.

Mostly, I'm just glad I can look at her clothes and dream they were mine.

_____________________
"So..We gonna sing army songs now?"

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Monday, April 26, 2004 11:23 AM

SKYDANCE


I don't think Mal has a problem with Companions at all. I think it's Inara.

Mal & Inara have one of those "fighting" relationships. They dig at each other. You see the small jabs all the time.

Problem is, Inara is so darn regal that Mal isn't left with much ammo in a fight. She can tease him about a million little things, but when push comes to shove, the only thing he knows he can say to get under her skin is "whore."

So, it's not a problem with whores. If it didn't bother Inara, he'd never mention it. Just watch: next time you see him refer to her being a whore, stop and think about what she said/did to him the minute before that. Then try to think of anything else he could have said that would have gotten back at her.

Has he ever called YoSaffBridge a whore? I can't remember.

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Monday, April 26, 2004 11:31 AM

GUNHAND


He yelled "You dirty, dirty whore...Yeah you better run." at YoSaffBridge as she flies away from leaving him naked in the desert on Trash.

Complete with dirt kicking!

So yep, but just the once I can recall.

"Pain is scary..."

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Tuesday, April 27, 2004 4:41 PM

ANKHAGOGO


Quote:

Originally posted by Jahzara:
Quote:

I always saw Inara as gliding around Serenity in all of the expensive clothes as perfectly natural, especially for the character. Although next to nothing is known about her childhood or "companion training" it can be assumed that Inara's from a well born family. This can be evidenced by the fact that she was born on Shinon and people are a lot richer there. Remember Zoe's comment in Ariel about everybody being happy and rich in the Core?
It could be a series of combinations that keep Inara from dressing down, beside the visual asthetics and contrast she plays to the rest of the crew. It could be her upbringing (it's never really crossed her mind to dress down), her training (she feels more comfortable or her costume could help keep her composure, or artificiality, as you said), or simply part of the elegance that we love.



I hadn't considered the "part of her upbringing" possibility, probably because I never really took Mal's "everyone's rich & happy" remark seriously. I mean, Badger lives on Persephone, and he's kinda, well, you know -- skanky. But Simon started as being Mr Spiffy Dresser all the time, and by the time we'd gotten to The Message, he was already starting to dress down more frequently.
Perhaps it's the opposite. Perhaps Inara had a very poor upbringing, and she likes to stay dressed up all the time because she wore gunny sacks and no shoes as a kid.
And I don't mean Gunne Sax either, for all you 80s-prom going girls.

"We're just happy to be doin' good works."

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Tuesday, April 27, 2004 5:13 PM

ANKHAGOGO


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
Point Two: European courtesans were the product of a Judeo-Christian ethos, as well. The trick of being a courtesan was in doing what was culturally banned -- having sex out of wedlock with typically powerful, married men -- without getting caught out-and-out doing it. (For an interesting exploration of the complications of courtly life, read Pierre Choderlos de Laclos' novel of 1782, Les Liaisons Dangereuses available in English translation, or see any of the three movies based on it. I personally prefer 1988's Dangerous Liaisons with Glenn Close and John Malkovich)
My point is (again, in my very obscure way) European courtesans were playing against the grain of their culture's belief system. The ones who were good at playing the game became legendary -- like Jesse James, Bonnie and Clyde, or Bill Gates in American folklore -- but they were not strictly smiled upon by proper folks, and you'd certainly not invite them to Sunday dinner at your folks.


Gee, I really prefer Valmont to Dangerous Liaisons. If you're looking for a depiction of the life of a courtesan, then check out Dangerous Beauty. Dreadful title, good movie, and based on an actual biography of a courtesean.
Now courtesans were very big in Italy, and, while we all know Italy is a very Catholic country, their social history is the rather not-too-chaste Roman Empire, and, as long ago as that was, I think there are aspects of that they've never shaken off. All that is to say that I don't necessary think Italian courteseans were going against their social ethics -- but it's probably madness to compare any other society with Italy. They seem to often be a law unto themselves.
Quote:

There are at least 3 separate instances from the show where Inara's facial expressions or spoken words indicate that a customer has injured her feelings, her heart, her inner child after a sexual encounter.

I noticed this, too, and also, there are at least two places where Inara says something like "I must be losing my touch", and do you know what I decided? I think our Inara is nowhere near as confident as she tries to come across most of the time. Now whether this is because she's coming to feel that being a Companion is lessening her as a person, or whether she's lost confidence for some other reason, I don't know. Maybe the reason she came aboard Serenity has something to do with it --but I think she's lost confidence in her "undefinable allure". I think it's kind of reflected in some of the clients we've seen her with : 2 youngsters who both seemed a little intimdated by her, if not awed(that dude who insulted her in Serenity and Fess Higgins),the Counsellor, who was not quite fawning over her, and Atherton Wing, who was practically begging her to stay with him. All of those people would be great ego soothers, if she was feeling a little unsure of herself.

On the clothing-dork front, I also realized that,when Inara breaks down in Heart of Gold, I think she's wearing the same outfit she was in Our Mrs Reynolds. I'd get up and go check to be sure, but I'm apocolyptically lazy.

Quote:

I'll leave that fascinating (I think) topic

Oh, I think it's fascinating -- it's why I started the thread. Heh.

"We're just happy to be doin' good works."

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Tuesday, April 27, 2004 9:56 PM

MANTHEYCALLJAYNE


I think the answer is very simple and consistent. First of all, it is not just Inara. Remember in Our Mrs. Reynolds, how Mal tried to convince Saffron to get honest work rather than be his wife? He was concerned about her humanity, about her not being treated as an object or degraded as a slave. (For other references to slavery, see the opening segment of Shindig.) Mal doesn't want anyone to be treated as anything less than an autonomous, moral being, and it pains him to see people accept their lot in life to serve and as a means to an end.

Shindig also demonstrates his ideas of humanity. Atherton Wing wasn't really being mean to Inara, but he was being awfully possessive. He referred to her as "mine" several times, including once to Mal's face right before Mal punched him. Mal was disgusted that a man of Atherton's station in life, someone allegedly intelligent and civilized, should think that another human being is his rented property just because "money changed hands." Mal punched him not to protect Inara's honor, but to punish him for treating people like objects.

Finally, let me address the Heart of Gold girls. Because of all I said, he probably didn't like their profession. But he also admired the sense of independence that Nandi showed in her determination to protect her business against those who are determined to destroy it. These girls make a living servicing others, but their other option was being somebody's wife... and by the looks of how Ranse treated Mrs. Burgess, that's not much of a life of freedom. Those girls chose the freer of two paths, and that's something Mal might admire. Him having sex with Nandi--he didn't pay her for her services; he really fell in love with her, probably because of the aforementioned sense of independence. I mean, she was Mal in petticoats! She resembled him more than anybody in any episode except for maybe Zoe. Her refusal to run away from the fight definitely sealed the deal for him.

So to sum up, Mal isn't opposed to prostitution because he's defending 19th-century sexual morality. He is morally opposed to those who take advantage of prostitution to use people to satisfy their own desires. He also is pained to see people who are in the position of being used accept their life as is, because they do not recognize their own autonomy and humanity. I also thought the point about Companions being artificial was also valid. And it's not about Inara. Not _just_ about her, anyway.

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Wednesday, April 28, 2004 2:34 AM

DRAKON


I don't think its got anything to do with religion specifically. What I think it has to do with is that what Inara does is essentially lie. Yes, she knows, her client knows, and the rest of the world knows that is a simple economic exchange of services for cash. But there is a lot of pretense toward romance that goes into it, and why she can command such a high price.

Its not that Mal is anti sex, he's anti lying about it. And he sees Inara's chosen profession as a fraud.

Plus, Inara has his number with her various "petty" comments. She knows that she can hit Mal any time she wants by reminding him that he is just a petty criminal. So Mal responds by calling her a whore, because he sees how that upsets her.

But it does not upset her for the same reason Mal thinks it does. Inara is not a whore, as whores are independent of the guild. Inara is not independent, she is someone's paid lover and slave, all in accordance with Guild Law.

So, Mal calls Inara a whore, because her profession, while "honorable" and legal, its still a fraud. And it pisses Inara off. Inara is pissed off by being called a whore, because it is inaccurate. She is not free to be a whore. Just the paid chattle of some rich, young and suitably hygenic.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

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Wednesday, April 28, 2004 2:55 AM

PATOLVER


> It could be a series of combinations that keep
> Inara from dressing down, beside the visual
> asthetics and contrast she plays to the rest of
> the crew. It could be her upbringing (it's
> never really crossed her mind to dress down),
> her training (she feels more comfortable or her
> costume could help keep her composure, or
> artificiality, as you said), or simply part of
> the elegance that we love.

I always assumed that the Companion training was rather like that of a geisha, in that everything was ritually prescribed - the clothing, the cosmetics, the ceremony, the required talents (music, fencing?), the business procedures and formalities - and that Inara would consider herself "off duty" only when she is alone in her shuttle with the door firmly locked.
It's not so much artificiality as getting "in character", being exactly what the customer expects and has paid for, in every detail.
And I don't think Mal has an issue with companions - just with Inara.
Mal's taunting of Inara is definitely that of a spoilt little boy.
The first day they met she told him clearly and dispassionately that there could be nothing between them. At the time she probably had no idea how much she would grow to love, desire and respect him - he was just a scruffy captain of a scruffy ship, and that was just part of the deal for her.
However, being told "you can't" was like a red rag to a bull for Mal. He resented what she said. In return he took every opportunity to demean her publicly for the only thing he could find in her that was not admirable and beautiful - her profession.
And once he came to love her, he couldn't afford to stop doing it - because any softening on his part of the campaign against her would have revealed what he was so desperate to hide, that he had feelings for her.

Pat



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