GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Firefly and Herbert's Dune

POSTED BY: ZOID
UPDATED: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 13:37
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Tuesday, April 20, 2004 4:50 PM

ZOID


Howdy, Browncoats:

I was thinking the other day (a dangerous habit, I know) about a marginally related topic, when it suddenly occurred to me that there were perhaps some similarities between Firefly and Frank Herbert's Dune (the series of novels, as opposed to the movie). Specifically, the way Bene Gesserit have taken their Orange Catholic Bible and seeded it throughout the known galaxy -- along with little alterations (Missionaria Protectiva) to make it more acceptable to whatever local populace in which it finds itself taking root. One purpose of this is to allow a member of the sisterhood, unexpectedly stranded in some out of the way neck of the woods, to know how to speak the local dialect of religious power, and get herself extracted as soon as possible; meanwhile, living in style until her ride shows up.

Of course, the Bene Gesserit have more than religious manipulation going for them. Some (all?) of them are 'Truthsayers', a form of body language reading and sensitivity to other non-verbal cues, perhaps mixed with some psychic ability. They are also quite talented in martial arts, known as 'Prana-Bindu', which also gives them superior physical and emotional control. They utilize 'the Voice', a means of controlling weaker minds through persuasion or command. Their use of the spice, Melange, enhances all these abilities, promotes general well-being, and extends life, with the notable drawback of being highly addictive. Bene Gesserit are concubines and advisors, spies and assassins.

Another parallel I believe we would have seen manifested later in the show, is to the human computers of Dune, the Mentats. After the Butlerian Jihad -- basically a last-ditch stand by humanity against artificial intelligence -- thinking machines are outlawed. The Mentats use a drug, Saphoo, to achieve computational speeds rivaled only by these AIs of the past. Wikipedia offers a more succinct analysis:
Quote:

"Mentats are humans trained to be computers: human minds developed to staggering heights of cognitive and analytic ability.

Unlike computers, however, mentats are not simply human calculators writ large. Instead, the exceptional cognitive abilities of memory and perception are the foundation for supra-logical hypothesizing. Mentats are able to sift large volumes of data and devise concise analyses in a process that goes far beyond logical deduction: Mentats cultivate "the naive mind", the mind without preconception or prejudice, that can extract the essential patterns or logic of data and deliver, with varying degrees of certainty, useful conclusions."


There may be other parallels, but these are the ones that jump out at me as possibly relevant to Firefly. First, we have the Companions' Guild. We learn in OMR that Companions are taught how to read the body language of clients and how to compel others through seduction. We learn in "Shindig" that they are trained swordspersons with detailed knowledge of killing arts. Inara tells Mal, "It takes one and a half pounds of pressure to puncture human flesh" (paraphrased). The religious credo of the Guild, while never explained outright in the show, appears to be an amalgamation of at least a few Eastern religions, in a sort of 'whatever fits our needs' schema.

Many have speculated that Inara was dying and that the syringe in "Serenity" contained her meds for whatever it is she has. I think that's a fairly compelling argument; but moot until at least next summer. Likewise, so is my speculation that Inara is in fact an operative -- spy and/or assassin -- of her Guild, not just a run-of-the-mill Companion. I believe that the syringe contained a drug that would have enhanced her ability to engage in hand-to-hand combat, or swordplay against Reaver attack. I believe there's some evidence she's not dying: she seriously considers Atherton 'May I Call You Ath?' Wing's offer to live with him permanently. She never suffers 'bad days' or even an apparent cold in any of the episodes. In fact, she presents as a quite healthy young woman (a wink's as good as a nudge to a blind man). So, if she's not dying, and the syringe doesn't contain a lethal injection as Joss stated in commentary, what else could it contain? Why is she leaving? Just like she says: her feelings for Mal and the other "family" members on Serenity are interrupting her emotional discipline. Nandi died because Inara lost focus momentarily. Hopefully, we'll someday find out...

Now to River. Many have speculated that she was being trained to be an assassin by BlueSun/Alliance. Mal even suggests the same in OiS (a dead giveaway by JW that she's not?). I have problems with that analysis. First, why would you scour the galaxy for those exceedingly rare intellects that make 'Top Three Percent' Simon look like an "idiot child", only to use them for something so simple as a single-target weapon? BlueSun/Alliance have no need to be subtle; they own everything and can have anybody offed, disappeared or imprisoned without fear of repercussion. Furthermore, they already have stone-cold assassins working for them, the Blue Hands. What then might be a more complete use of all of River's prodigious talents? I believe they were attempting to create a Mentat-style human computer for strategic military purposes. Such an individual would be worth infinitely more to BlueSun/Alliance than a mere assassin, regardless how good the assassin was. In fact, if they felt they had a single individual that would be able to operate as a human war-strategy computer, and that individual was at large, possibly even in the hands of an opponent (Independent remnants?), they would be frantic to resecure that individual. Furthermore, they would be careful to leave no trace of anyone who had come into contact with her. River's demonstrated ability with weapons, to my mind, is more remarkable from the standpoint that she was able to track and destroy multiple targets without even trying, with her eyes closed. That's more of a strategic analysis than an assassin's firing solution. And eliminating those multiple targets are child's play for her; I doubt seriously she sees them as anything but objects, units. She then smiles and says, "No power in the 'verse can stop me", the exact same words Kaylee had uttered after wrestling the apple from River during playtime earlier in the ep.

Whew! Sorry for being so long-winded, but it's a bit of a reach. Also, I'm not saying that JW & Co. intentionally used these elements from Dune. Herbert's classic has influenced many writers and filmmakers. I'd consider "Star Wars" more imitative of Dune than Firefly. Being influenced by a powerful story is not necessarily a sign of weakness in a storyteller. Herbert's Dune itself is, after all, influenced by a very powerful Messianic tradition; but it is ultimately an allegorical tale of Machiavellian machinations, political intrigue and revolt. Firefly has its own meaning, quite apart from the trappings of the individual characters' stories; it is a literal tale of Machiavellian machinations, political intrigue and (eventually, I believe) revolt.


Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"River and me was best friends, back then. I named my first-born daughter after her. 'Course, you can't swing a dead cat 'round here on I-Day without hittin' a River..."

- Kaywinnit Tam, wife and mother of 6, A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Tuesday, April 20, 2004 7:15 PM

KERNELM


Yep, I've definitely had idle thoughts about if the Companions may be at all similar to the Bene Gesserit. Though the religious figure/fighter thing may relate to Book as well (and a crazy theory about Book that I thought of the other day, but which is pretty unsupported by the show). Haven't thought about a Mentat/River connection though.

Really though, any similarities between the BG and the Companions is purely speculative. I think it's just that Herbert pretty much has the patent on futuristic powerful groups made of women.

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Tuesday, April 20, 2004 11:07 PM

CALHOUN


Yeah Zoid, its my belief that Inara's syringe was a powerful narcotic to enhance combat abilities. I alluded to this in other posts and was generally rebuffed..

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Wednesday, April 21, 2004 2:58 AM

NICOLACLARKE


Interesting thoughts. I definitely think there's more to the Companions than has thus far been shown, which makes the Bene Gesserit parallels intriguing.

That said, I can't quite envision Inara as a hand-to-hand fighter. She doesn't appear to have anything like the bodyweight/strength for that - although I could certainly see her being trained in finesse combat (eg swordplay) that relied less on brute strength. Hmm, though perhaps martial arts would kinda cover that base?

I like the idea of River as a human tactical computer very much. As Kaylee says, "She just... did the math." But can anyone suggest a way that an inability to suppress her own fear (that is what Simon discovers about her in 'Ariel', right?) would feed into this? If anything, you'd think they would want to scour out her emotions completely. Unless she was still a work-in-progress, I suppose...

/ pure intentions, juxtaposed /

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Wednesday, April 21, 2004 5:31 AM

XARR


Every time I read posts like this, discussing theories on subtle plot points, I get absolutley bouncy with anticipation! I can't wait for the movie! And I can't wait for the series to come back on the air!

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Wednesday, April 21, 2004 7:49 AM

JASONZZZ



Quote:

Originally posted by NicolaClarke:
Interesting thoughts. I definitely think there's more to the Companions than has thus far been shown, which makes the Bene Gesserit parallels intriguing.

That said, I can't quite envision Inara as a hand-to-hand fighter. She doesn't appear to have anything like the bodyweight/strength for that - although I could certainly see her being trained in finesse combat (eg swordplay) that relied less on brute strength. Hmm, though perhaps martial arts would kinda cover that base?




I am not exactly sure what you mean when you say that the Inara character doesn't appear to have the bodyweight/strength for hand-to-hand combat. Is it because she is slight? That might be a misconception. Here are some things to consider:

Someone like Bruce Lee, recognized by most of the martial arts world to be the strongest "pound for pound" and the "best-of-the-best" martial artists weighted in at only 140+ some lbs.

Many forms of martial arts are designed for smaller folks.

Sports kinesiologists and trainers, in their trade (not sure if absolutely all of them agree, but it's normal trade craft), using measurements from atheletes within the last few decades concludes that smaller atheletes are actually proportionally stronger than larger ones.

Most martial artists will conclude that speed and training are of more importance than brute strength. (Not saying strength isn't important, just not as important in comparison)

Maybe I misunderstood you, lmk if that's what you meant.

Quote:

Originally posted by NicolaClarke:


I like the idea of River as a human tactical computer very much. As Kaylee says, "She just... did the math." But can anyone suggest a way that an inability to suppress her own fear (that is what Simon discovers about her in 'Ariel', right?) would feed into this? If anything, you'd think they would want to scour out her emotions completely. Unless she was still a work-in-progress, I suppose...

/ pure intentions, juxtaposed /






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Wednesday, April 21, 2004 9:17 AM

NICOLACLARKE


*smiles* Well, yes, that was the idea that started to occur to me by the end of the paragraph, hence the "hmm" & slight backtrack. Teach me to post without proper proofreading.

Given the blending of cultures and the fairly 'eastern' overtones of the Companions (could I be more vague?), Inara being trained in (a) martial art(s) does seem possible.

I still think she looks as if she'd snap like a twig, but - as you point out - that's a misleading preconception. One that's partly born of only seeing the heftier / more obviously muscled crewmembers (Jayne, Mal, Zoe) do any fighting, and that very much in traditional western fisticuffs style. An unfair assumption, though, so I take the statement back.

Come to think of it, there's been surprisingly little in the way of martial arts in the show so far. Granted, it takes a great deal more time and dedication to train in a martial art than most of our regulars probably have to spare, but in a 'verse where people regularly swear in Chinese I would have expected at least some of the moves to have permeated society. Maybe it's just a function of most of the action taking place on border worlds. Or maybe you have to have a certain status or position to even be allowed to train? (including but not limited to Companion?)

(That said, if Inara _is_ secretly warrior woman it all sounds a bit Buffy: unfeasibly tiny girl kicks bad guy ass without a hair out of place... no flames for that, please, just jokin'!)

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Wednesday, April 21, 2004 9:42 AM

JASONZZZ



I very much agree with you and am also (as you are) quite surprised that the characters do not have more choreographed martial arts moves.
As you suggested, and I agree, a culture so
permeated with Chinese influence would also have a
bit more taichi / kungfu influence in their
fighting as well - especially for military
trained folks.

I certainly would like to see more martial
art in the movie and in future shows.


Quote:

Originally posted by NicolaClarke:
*smiles* Well, yes, that was the idea that started to occur to me by the end of the paragraph, hence the "hmm" & slight backtrack. Teach me to post without proper proofreading.

Given the blending of cultures and the fairly 'eastern' overtones of the Companions (could I be more vague?), Inara being trained in (a) martial art(s) does seem possible.

I still think she looks as if she'd snap like a twig, but - as you point out - that's a misleading preconception. One that's partly born of only seeing the heftier / more obviously muscled crewmembers (Jayne, Mal, Zoe) do any fighting, and that very much in traditional western fisticuffs style. An unfair assumption, though, so I take the statement back.

Come to think of it, there's been surprisingly little in the way of martial arts in the show so far. Granted, it takes a great deal more time and dedication to train in a martial art than most of our regulars probably have to spare, but in a 'verse where people regularly swear in Chinese I would have expected at least some of the moves to have permeated society. Maybe it's just a function of most of the action taking place on border worlds. Or maybe you have to have a certain status or position to even be allowed to train? (including but not limited to Companion?)

(That said, if Inara _is_ secretly warrior woman it all sounds a bit Buffy: unfeasibly tiny girl kicks bad guy ass without a hair out of place... no flames for that, please, just jokin'!)





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Wednesday, April 21, 2004 9:58 AM

SHINY


As I've said before, I don't believe the evidence points to Inara being skilled in martial arts (at least not in hand-to-hand combat):

1. In TTJ, she pulls Kaylee down behind some crates and hides with her, not helping Mal with his hand-to-hand combat against Crow.

2. In Shindig, her expression (as Morena points out in the commentary) is truly scared at the fisticuffs and the flying-about-of-people-and-crashing-into-mirrors.

3. In OMR, although she does block Saffron's first punch, she awkwardly ducks Saffron's follow-up kick and lands on her ass.

4. In OiS, she seems genuinely frightened after being backhanded by Early.

Of course, she could be acting all this time to conceal her true abilities, but that seems unnecessarily complicated to me.

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Wednesday, April 21, 2004 10:08 AM

XARR


Perhaps, if given the opportunity to shoot-up the spinach juice in that little syringe, she would not be so afraid of these things. Perhaps, if that is indeed some sort of combat drug, she would have more strength and confidence during a battle.

Of course, this is a theory, based on a theory.

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Wednesday, April 21, 2004 10:36 AM

GUNHAND


As far as Inara and Saffron's relative martial arts skill, I think that perhaps (going down the Dune BG trail here) different Houses teach their Companions different things. Inara always seemed to me to be more of the refined school, with the incense, tea ceremonies, etc while Saffron was...well a lot meaner.

When Inara said that Saffron had Acadamy training it made me wonder if there weren't different branches to it. Inara from the traditionalist school of Companions and maybe Saffron from the kung-fu, infiltrating, sneaky spy school perhaps.

I mean a Companion would be a perfect spy, highly respected, welcome everywhere and beyond reproach. The BG in Dune had sisters like this as well.

As for the vial in Serenity, I think it's a combat enhancing drug. Inara obviously has had some weapons training, but if she didn't go the Unknown Companion Spy School route she wouldn't have gotten in-depth training in combat. So maybe the 'normal' companions carry combat drugs as a last resort and surprise attack sort of trick.

As for why martial arts aren't more prominent in the FF universe a few things I can think of are:

1) Most of the Moons (technically all) that we've seen so far have been from the Anglo side of the Anglo-Sino Alliance, on the other rim of the galaxy things could be quite different.

2) Even though the Browncoats and the Alliance troops could have received martial arts training to be good enough to use it in combat would require something more than what you'd get in Basic, so probably some of the special forces in the War used it, but we haven't seen that yet either.

3) Martial arts developed in China and Japan because the peasantry wasn't allowed weapons, so they needed some way to fight back if they had to. With the availability of guns in the FF universe being pretty universal then one of the primary reasons to keep developing martial arts would be gone. Sure some specialists would learn it, scholars and people who just thought it'd be shiny to know but martial arts may be less common in the 'verse than they are even in modern day America.

Plus I read/heard somewhere that because of Buffy and Angel Joss wanted to get away from the kung-fu fighting for a while, so most of the hand to hand combat we see in Firefly is of the good 'ol fisticuffs and thrown dirt fashion. So it could all just be racked up to a matter of style.

Pain is scary...

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Wednesday, April 21, 2004 1:37 PM

ZOID



All:

Very interesting responses, and definitely along my lines of thinking.

I suspect that Inara might be more of a swordswoman or otherwise skilled with piercing weapons. I don't know how nifty Morena is physically. She states in "Shindig" commentary that she practiced all day with the sword, out in her driveway, until her arm about fell off. Some things -- like sword fighting and trumpet playing -- are virtually impossible to pretend to do convincingly. As a consequence, I'd tend to think of Inara as more of a 'get the guy in bed, then after you've loosened his lips and gotten his secrets, slit his throat' type of operative, because it may be all the actress can do convincingly. If, on the other hand, anybody catches wind of Ms. Baccarin taking jiu jitsu, or hiring Billy Blanks or Jackie Chan as a personal trainer, or dating Wesley Snipes, please let us know ASAP...

Another way of assassinating a client would be a variant of the 'good night kiss' from OMR. A slow acting poison instead of anesthesia, something that approximates or actually causes a heart attack, say two days downstream of the event would be very effective, in a Bene Gesserit way. Also, Inara seems very glad to find Mal still alive, after Saffron was finished with him. Safe to assume that Inara felt Saffron had enough of the right kind of training at the Academy to have assassinated a trained, combat-proven veteran.

As for River, I think a possible motivation for wrecking her brain -- a process that is clearly unfinished -- is that BlueSun/Alliance have failed to find a way to create a computer AI. So they do the next best thing: remove the humanity from an exceptionally intuitive human genius. The amygdala would be a good place to start. So, although the idea is similar to a mentat, River is not identical to a mentat. Mentats are not surgically altered to remove their emotions. Thufir Hawatt's downfall is his trust of Yueh, compounded by his misplaced hatred for Jessica, because of her supposed betrayal of Leto.

I was particularly intrigued by the way River's whole brain lights up at the end of the scan in "Ariel", like something has triggered an overdrive mode. If she is in any way psychic, which seems quite likely even though Simon doubts it, it may well be that it's an unexpected side effect of the process she was undergoing at the BlueSun Academy...

If only we knew something tangible about the Blue Hands operatives and specifically how those wands functioned; and why the Blue Hands themselves were immune to its effects...

Which triggers another logical argument in my mind that River was more than just an assassin. Observations and suppositions: 1) The Blue Hands guys might be using a form of telepathy or telekinesis focused through the wands to burst vessels and organs in an opponent; 2) This makes them assassins, and they can go where they want and kill who they want with impunity because they are warranted by BlueSun/Alliance; 3) In "Ariel", they kill the security man and everyone on his team who spoke with River, because they spoke to River; 4) They did not kill the officers they spoke with and showed pictures of River to in TTJ, because just speaking to a Blue Hand is not a secret that needs to be guarded by assassination. Ergo, you can walk away from an interview encounter with a Blue Hand; but if they find out you questioned River, "this is your brain on drugs", crackle, sizzle...

Conclusion: River is more important, more secret, more jealously guarded than a run-of-the-mill psychic assassin.

What d'ya think? I'm sticking with 'human war-strategy computer', at least until the movie comes out next year...




Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
Associated conclusion from above argument: If the Blue Hands ever catch up with River, they'll fry up whoever she's with, meaning the entire crew of Serenity. (I really dislike these guys)


_________________________________________________

"River and me was best friends, back then. I named my first-born daughter after her. 'Course, you can't swing a dead cat 'round here on I-Day without hittin' a River..."

- Kaywinnit Tam, wife and mother of 6, A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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