GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

My 10 year old in some FF related trouble

POSTED BY: JUSTDAVID
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 11:57
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 15568
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Friday, April 16, 2004 4:08 PM

TOMTBA2004


jesus punto, why do you sound so angry in you post.


De, iam not saying de. i am saying Duh. as for my translations every site in the chinesse translations on this site say Ta ma Duh as F'me blind as well as (I think insults.com)its another link from this site., there are lot of sites dedicated to firefly chinese. here are some, then maybe we can stop this (what sounds like arguing amongst our selves.)and become freinds.

http://fireflychinese.home.att.net
http://www.insults.net/html/swear/chinese.html
http://ljconstantine.com/fanfic/glossary.htm


the ones i first found i can't find but these should do. the first point i was making was the little girl didn't cuss anybody out. but herself.
even on the show it is used as a " OH my God " way. or "" F' me blind"


peace?

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Friday, April 16, 2004 5:50 PM

AERRIN


Quote:

Originally posted by Ghoulman:
just sayin'... Most 10 year olds, let alone girls, DON'T stand up for themselves. Gotta say, you're daughter was right to do so. And BTW you must be doing something right to have such a great girl.



I don't know what 10 year olds you're hanging with, but I have to say that the ones I work with have absolutely no problem standing up for themselves. Or bullying. Or putting each other down. Or looking for a fight. We actually had three girls (9) pin a boy down and start kicking him this week.

Someone earlier mentioned that a 'no touching' rule seems a bit excessive - but I have to say that depending on the district, it is entirely appropriate. Because in my year in schools, I've seen even good natured joking around escalate into some pretty serious violence, occasionally complete with blood.


And on that happy thought: Chinese is cool. Cussing in it at 10 is perhaps less so. In my own opinion.

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Friday, April 16, 2004 5:57 PM

GETUPKID


wow, thats, well huh, jus make sure she doesnt cuss in chinesse as often, cause then she will turn in 2 me, and thats a bad thing.


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Friday, April 16, 2004 6:40 PM

JASONZZZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Tomtba2004:
jesus punto, why do you sound so angry in you post.




No anger, no arguing either. Was it b/c I used all those swear words as examples. Thought I clearly delineated them with quotes...

Just trying to explain what it is.

I think you carry a true sincere misconception on what the phrase "Ta ma de" means, and I hope to offer some help in clearing it up.


Quote:

Originally posted by Tomtba2004:


De, iam not saying de. i am saying Duh. as for my translations every site in the chinesse translations on this site say Ta ma Duh as F'me blind as well as (I think insults.com)its another link from this site., there are lot of sites dedicated to firefly chinese. here are some, then maybe we can stop this (what sounds like arguing amongst our selves.)and become freinds.

http://fireflychinese.home.att.net




So alright. One thing is. While you are reading
this particular site, you should know that each phrase or words has two sections devoted to it. The first section of that particular (Ta Ma Duh) definition is how the subtitles appear in the Firefly show - both the anglicized spelling as well as the "translation" that appeared in the subtitles in the show.

You should know two things:

1. The anglicized spelling used in the subtitle in the show is often offered in a phoenetic form - as in something other than pinyin - and rather inconsistent most times.

2. The "translation" used in the subtitle are often skewed or exaggerated to fit the particular scene.

Now, "ta ma duh" is what the show used for the real pinyin form of the word "Ta Ma De". If you read further in that entry on that website, you will see that the *real* definition (what I would rather call usage) is "Damn it" and various variants.

"F* me blind" was only offered as the translation during the show. I am sure the mood fit the moment. But please don't attempt to take the phrase sound by sound apart and think that "Duh" or "de" = "Blind", etc, etc. It was *not* meant to be a sound by sound translation.


Quote:

Originally posted by Tomtba2004:


http://www.insults.net/html/swear/chinese.html
http://ljconstantine.com/fanfic/glossary.htm


the ones i first found i can't find but these should do. the first point i was making was the little girl didn't cuss anybody out. but herself.
even on the show it is used as a " OH my God " way. or "" F' me blind"


peace?



I couldn't find any particular entry for "Ta ma de" within either of those sites. In any case, what I am trying to convey is that "Ta ma de" is a general utterance, it is neither translated strictly as an insult against oneself or some one else. Depending on the situation, it can be used to:

1. curse out someone
2. curse out the situation in general
3. just a general "holy cow" utterance.
4. if the situation is proper, it might even be used for something like 'F* me'. But really, who uses that English phrase 'F* me' really as an insult against themselves? It's really used as a comment whatever is going on at the moment.





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Friday, April 16, 2004 8:38 PM

BOURNE


Actually, I remember hearing the phrase directed at other people (in real life) as well, either directly or in their absence. Typically "Wo cao" is the more self-directed equivalent.
And "ta ma DE" is the correct pinyin spelling of the phrase; "DUH" is prob'ly their attempt at an American-ear-friendly pronunciation guide.

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Saturday, April 17, 2004 3:09 AM

CANTTAKESKY


JustDavid,

I have a 3 year old daughter. If she were 10 and stood up to people picking on her with bilingual cussing, I'd be proud as all get out. Moreover, I'm Chinese, and I disagree with other Chinese speakers on this board that "Ta ma de" is all that offensive.

Unlike many people on this board, I don't have a problem with profanity. Contrary to popular misperception, swearing does not cause kids to hang out on street corners smoking, anymore than listening to heavy metal causes kids to engage in school shootings.

Some parents object to swearing. Some parents have no problems with it. I fully support whatever parental guidelines parents choose to set for their own children. But no one has the right to impose their own values on other people's children, on the presumption that their own values are superior and will improve societal health. That's just bullshit.

For whatever it's worth, I'm proud of your daughter too. :)

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Saturday, April 17, 2004 7:11 AM

JASONZZZ




I think that's a lot wrong in this society. Something is going on that clearly with have future repercussions - you should speak up. It's certainly not imposing or an imposition to offer advice, tidbits, aid, and/or suggestions. I would certainly disagree if someone decides to put JustDavid in a headlock and nuggie or pinkbelly him until he does exactly as requested. If my fly is down in public, rarely does anyone approach me and let me know - sure, there is plenty of gawking and avoiding the situation. How about a quick whisper "hey buddy, check your fly"? We all build societal values together - without family close by to help, you and I and eachother is all we've got. Sweeping issues under the rug isn't
going to help any. If we all just sweep the trash off of right in front of our threshold, it just comes right back the next day.

We all have to do our part to help. If it's superior, it's superior. If it's better, it's better. If it's good advice, take it. If it isn't, don't. One does *not* have to slander another's advice. It only shows how closed minded one is. That sort of attitude prevents one from learning and I certainly hope that it isn't being passed on to kids.

If someone offers an advice, listen. Everyone can decide whether to learn it, take it, or not. Judge the advice itself. But don't judge the attitude of offering an advice. How else could we pass knowledge around?


And if you can offer solid and valid scientific proof that:

1. swearing indeed does not cause kids to hang out at the street corner and smoke
2. listening to heavy metal doesn't cause kids to do school shooting

we can end all of those "misconceptions" right now. (and what's the beef with Heavy Metal, is there some sort of societal mar against Heavy Metal or something. Isn't Gangsta and Ska far more dangerous?)



Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
JustDavid,

I have a 3 year old daughter. If she were 10 and stood up to people picking on her with bilingual cussing, I'd be proud as all get out. Moreover, I'm Chinese, and I disagree with other Chinese speakers on this board that "Ta ma de" is all that offensive.

Unlike many people on this board, I don't have a problem with profanity. Contrary to popular misperception, swearing does not cause kids to hang out on street corners smoking, anymore than listening to heavy metal causes kids to engage in school shootings.

Some parents object to swearing. Some parents have no problems with it. I fully support whatever parental guidelines parents choose to set for their own children. But no one has the right to impose their own values on other people's children, on the presumption that their own values are superior and will improve societal health. That's just bullshit.

Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:


So, by that. You might mean that - if your next door neighbor does various nefarious acts and teaches their young'uns to steal, maim, hurt, kill. It's alright? You fully support how they are raising their kids and the type of parental guidelines that they choose to set for their own children? You very well can choose to do that - just know that those very kids:

1. live right next door - direct and very immediate repercussions for you and your family.
2. goes to the same school with your kids - let's hope your kids are completely impervious to peer pressure and peer learning.






For whatever it's worth, I'm proud of your daughter too. :)

Can't Take My Gorram Sky





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Saturday, April 17, 2004 7:51 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
I think that's a lot wrong in this society. Something is going on that clearly with have future repercussions - you should speak up.


Then Maybe people should worry about more important problems. Such as, the dumping down of school curriculum, the worsening of the "me attitude", crimes becoming more violent, in fact society becoming more violent and disconnected (socially) etc. Swearing is hardly one of these top issues and is most likely a side effect of them.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
It's certainly not imposing or an imposition to offer advice, tidbits, aid, and/or suggestions.


Depends on what words are used, how they are used and with what vigor they are used. Most of the time people come off a preachy and that spells shutdown for the person they are trying to dispense advice to. Your vigor is getting about that bad area.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
We all have to do our part to help. If it's superior, it's superior. If it's better, it's better. If it's good advice, take it. If it isn't, don't. One does *not* have to slander another's advice. It only shows how closed minded one is. That sort of attitude prevents one from learning and I certainly hope that it isn't being passed on to kids.


Again, in whose opinion is it superior. Different cultures will have different values in general, never mind the range that that societies people will have.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
How else could we pass knowledge around?


Mostly this is done from parents to child, school, friends, etc. Not some anonymous guy on a board.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
And if you can offer solid and valid scientific proof that:

1. swearing indeed does not cause kids to hang out at the street corner and smoke


Everybody that I know swore from time to time and only a handful hung out on the street corner and smoked. If 1) was true then all of the hundreds of kids that I went to high school with would have been there right beside me.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
2. listening to heavy metal doesn't cause kids to do school shooting


There are studies that show that heavy metal music cause the person to have a lesser IQ and a more aggressive attitude, but, for only a few minutes afterward. Interestingly enough, classical music has that opposite effect for about the same time.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
(and what's the beef with Heavy Metal, is there some sort of societal mar against Heavy Metal or something. Isn't Gangsta and Ska far more dangerous?)


1) no music is dangerous
2) heavy metal got a bad rap because it is the more extreme form of rock and roll which was demonized before it

----
"If you truly love the memory, you must set it free()!" -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River

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Saturday, April 17, 2004 8:16 PM

JASONZZZ


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
I think that's a lot wrong in this society. Something is going on that clearly with have future repercussions - you should speak up.


Then Maybe people should worry about more important problems. Such as, the dumping down of school curriculum, the worsening of the "me attitude", crimes becoming more violent, in fact society becoming more violent and disconnected (socially) etc. Swearing is hardly one of these top issues and is most likely a side effect of them.




We can discuss causation and results. But the solution starts at home. We can work out all of the other problems too - but let's start at home - where the problems are small - and we, arguably, has the most and direct control over it. Schools only provide one small facet of a child's total curriculum. It has been shown that different children using the same curriculum proceed at a different pace not merely b/c of their own personal ability, but b/c of their support system at home. At home is where the big difference is made. At home is where we have the most control and influence. Take away MTV, take away gangsta rap, take away violent movies, take away Big Macs, 24 hour soda fountains, Britney Spears - and the parents *might* have a chance. I am not saying bringing up your child with a whitebread world - those other things do come, they will have to face it eventually. But let's provide the kids with a good stable foundation to be ready to understand and perhaps *appreciate* these things without being completely exploited by them.

(Again with the food analogy) Just like bringing kids into solid food for the first time - one wouldn't sit them in front of a 9 course meal complete with Beef Wellington, Baked Alaska and to finish it off a nice 1943 Port? (Before I get the responses - I am well aware of the possibility that perhaps some people indeedy do this, but let me present the alternative). One would, properly, start off with bland cereal and watered down fruit to get the digestive system and the taste buds ready. Then after several days or scant weeks - move on to some primary flavours, but one flavor at a time, so that:

1. they are not overwhelmed with the sudden strong flavors and get completely turned off by the awfulness and intensity.
2. learn to appreciate and differenciate each new food and flavour.
3. learn whether the kid actually has certain specific food allergy.

One lesson at a time, one thing at a time. Build upon the basis of prior experiences. Reinforce, build, and practice.


In any case, all we really have the most, direct, and immediate control over are things that are right around us. The idea that I have is at least to work on the things that you have the most influence and control over - and worry least about the things that you cannot control in no uncertain terms. People worry about the weather - it's cold, it's hot, it's snowing, it's not raining. They worry about whether they will catch a cold. They worry about world population, earthquakes, world hunger. I ask myself the questions:

1. do I have control over it at all?
2. how can I have an influence over it?
3. what can I do to help/ aid/ solve it?



Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
It's certainly not imposing or an imposition to offer advice, tidbits, aid, and/or suggestions.


Depends on what words are used, how they are used and with what vigor they are used. Most of the time people come off a preachy and that spells shutdown for the person they are trying to dispense advice to. Your vigor is getting about that bad area.




Again, you can use it or don't. I say it like it is. If you have a better way of putting it, I will gladly take your advice. We can all learn together. Way I see it, the problem is on the receiving end and not on the transmitting end (Again, if it's a problem on this end and there is a valid suggestion in improving it - I will gladly take it) If the receiving end just wants to turn a blind eye to it - no amount of "sugarring" it up will make it better. To quote a zen master "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear". And Let's not get into the student/teacher thing - I am not saying I am a teacher, I am just using the metaphor to illustrate the sharing of tidbits.

So, here then at the very least. I must at least thank you and possibly others who have contributed and represented your personal views with vigor as well. After all, if nobody talked or shared their viewpoints. What the heck is a community or a forum for?



Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
We all have to do our part to help. If it's superior, it's superior. If it's better, it's better. If it's good advice, take it. If it isn't, don't. One does *not* have to slander another's advice. It only shows how closed minded one is. That sort of attitude prevents one from learning and I certainly hope that it isn't being passed on to kids.


Again, in whose opinion is it superior. Different cultures will have different values in general, never mind the range that that societies people will have.




That's my whole point. Why does it have to be superior or inferior at all?! Someone shares a different perspective, possibly a new tidbit, if you could use it - fine, if you can't - don't.

Why shut off the process of possible enlightenment and sharing of tidbits - calling the other fellow some unenlighten terms. All I am saying is, if it's better - fine. But what difference does it make? The only difference at the end is whether we can all make a difference in the world - improving it. Make it a better place than we found it.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:



Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
How else could we pass knowledge around?


Mostly this is done from parents to child, school, friends, etc. Not some anonymous guy on a board.





Yes, but why does each parent have to re-invent the wheel each time? Why not share each other's insights. It might work, it might not. Last time I check, people spend their time on this board as much as they spend: with their child, school, friends. Maybe you do not, maybe some others do. It might not be here, it might be another place - a real place. So, why not an anonymous guy on a board. What makes this board so especially criminal that you or I can't offer some friendly tidbit? Why shut off a potential source of good info/advice? If this place is so worthless - while hang out here at all?

Is it really just for the mutual adulation? Hope its a tad bit more than that... Me, I never consider anything or anyplace a worthless place to learn.

All of the world is my school. I learn everywhere I go. Everyone is my teacher.


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
And if you can offer solid and valid scientific proof that:

1. swearing indeed does not cause kids to hang out at the street corner and smoke


Everybody that I know swore from time to time and only a handful hung out on the street corner and smoked. If 1) was true then all of the hundreds of kids that I went to high school with would have been there right beside me.




Well, not very scientific... but in any case, what you are telling me thru (rather anectodal, even though personal experience) is that swearing indeed can cause kids to hang out at the street corner and smoke - just not in every case.

So for the moment at least, we can show that the following statement posted earlier is, in fact, untrue:

Quote:


"swearing does not cause kids to hang out on street corners smoking"




Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
2. listening to heavy metal doesn't cause kids to do school shooting


There are studies that show that heavy metal music cause the person to have a lesser IQ and a more aggressive attitude, but, for only a few minutes afterward. Interestingly enough, classical music has that opposite effect for about the same time.




People like heavy metal, people like christian rock, people like pop, rap, ska, country, folk, classical. It's not just the music, it's the associated ideas, environment, behaviors, and people that makes the entire scene.

If one listens to recorded sessions of just plain conversations describe how crappy, horrible, and decrepit the world is, filled with demons and killing and bang your head. Hey, not a whole lot of chance that one would end up thinking the world has some kind of potential and possibility - let alone a beautiful place filled with potential.

Take that together with pulse crashing discordance that will drive monkeys crazy...

It might or might not *make* you do crazy things. It's certainly at the minimal self-reinforcing. e.g. I am depressed, so I listen to depressing music b/c it's fits the mood, which makes me kind of depressed... so I listen to depressing music...



Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
(and what's the beef with Heavy Metal, is there some sort of societal mar against Heavy Metal or something. Isn't Gangsta and Ska far more dangerous?)


1) no music is dangerous
2) heavy metal got a bad rap because it is the more extreme form of rock and roll which was demonized before it




Heavy Metal and like forms of music is demonized not only for it, but more so for all of the associated behaviours. If one just listens to Heavy Metal by themselves and go about the day - maybe it will be ok (though I certainly doubt it.)




Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:


----
"If you truly love the memory, you must set it free()!" -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River






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Monday, April 19, 2004 1:29 AM

ZORIAH


JustDavid: Leita sounds like a well adjusted, thoughtful and loving daughter. I hope to be so lucky one day ;)

Where I live (in NZ) profanity is not such a big deal as it seems to be in the US (we use words like damn, bollocks, hell, shit, bugger etc a lot in every day conversation. In my opinion strong cussing once in a while (where appropriate) is not a sign some huge break down in societal values.

What if I happen to like mushy spaghetti and think it's best that way? Or hate italian sausage? If it's my meal to prepare then I'll make it how I think it should be made with the ingredients I think are best. If I want advice on how to make spaghetti another way, then I'll ask. Simple as that ;)

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Monday, April 19, 2004 4:28 AM

JASONZZZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Zoriah:
JustDavid: Leita sounds like a well adjusted, thoughtful and loving daughter. I hope to be so lucky one day ;)

Where I live (in NZ) profanity is not such a big deal as it seems to be in the US (we use words like damn, bollocks, hell, shit, bugger etc a lot in every day conversation. In my opinion strong cussing once in a while (where appropriate) is not a sign some huge break down in societal values.




I agree, Swearing and cussing can be an effectual and important method to expressing oneself - when and where appropriate - at times. It might even be the preferred method or the singular method if one is a longshoremen or a pirate - but I wouldn't know that. All I know is that there are much better ways and words of expressing oneself in most particular situations. I swear alot when I am around people who's singular mode of communication is thru grunts and cussing. I swear when I am alone working on projects and done something dumb. The thing that I am trying to convey is that swearing shouldn't be the first and only option in a child's "bag of tricks". At such an impressionable young age, they should be taught how to get help when it's appropriate, how to deal with conflict, disarm the situation, and if completely appropriate and there are no absolutely no other options (I would say it's time to get help rather than swearing) perhaps other avenues.

IAC, swearing and cussing is increasingly a replacement in wide-open public places to expressing oneself. I know that there are plenty of parents out there who even objects to the use of *non-swear* words such as "stupid", let alone other more powerful incarnations. I sit in family restaurants (not in a bar) and the idiots around us just don't know how to shut up - it's a family restaurant, not some local pool hall.

Quote:

Originally posted by Zoriah:


What if I happen to like mushy spaghetti and think it's best that way? Or hate italian sausage? If it's my meal to prepare then I'll make it how I think it should be made with the ingredients I think are best.




Some people do indeed like mushy spaghetti. Maybe it's even the same as the pink mush I described. I wouldn't know. I don't much like it myself. I like sausages. You don't, we all like different things. But there are differences between mere preferences (which don't amount to any beans when it's all done) and decisions with societal impacts. I won't reiterate my views that things like raising kids are one of those - most parents would agree - it's just how we each do things at the end that we likely disagree on.


Quote:

Originally posted by Zoriah:

If I want advice on how to make spaghetti another way, then I'll ask. Simple as that ;)



Zoriah, we aren't talking about advices on fashion tips - like "Good Golly, look at that nasty shirt you are wearing!" or "Did you sleep in that outfit?" Maybe you live on an island by yourself, but last time I checked, we are all dependent on each other in this little world. But at your request, I have noted it down in my little book:

"No Spaghetti Advices for Zoriah"

and I expect that, since you won't take any advice, you also won't be dispensing any advices either? Bummer, I will have to do without that secret lamb stew spaghetti recipe - I suppose.

thanks,



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Monday, April 19, 2004 7:31 AM

JUSTDAVID


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
At such an impressionable young age, they should be taught how to get help when it's appropriate, how to deal with conflict, disarm the situation, and if completely appropriate and there are no absolutely no other options (I would say it's time to get help rather than swearing) perhaps other avenues.


This is a good example of why I think you're getting some opposition here.
First, you've said before that you're just offering suggestions, but your tone often comes across as preaching, and for me when it seems like someone is lecturing me, my gut reaction is to reject whatever point they're trying to make. From a teacher in a college class, I'm totally open to a lecture. But from most other sources, it just makes me turn off.
Second, many of us disagree with the idea that cussing is a significant evil, or that it leads to things like smoking or violence. I just can't see a connection there. From my point of view, cussing at the wrong time amounts to a social faux pas, like maybe eating spaghetti with your hands. People will disapprove, but not much harm done.

Thanks to Zoriah, CantTakeSky, and others further up the thread for all the kind words.


"Light it."

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Monday, April 19, 2004 7:36 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
I think that's a lot wrong in this society. Something is going on that clearly with have future repercussions - you should speak up.


Then Maybe people should worry about more important problems. Such as, the dumping down of school curriculum, the worsening of the "me attitude", crimes becoming more violent, in fact society becoming more violent and disconnected (socially) etc. Swearing is hardly one of these top issues and is most likely a side effect of them.




We can discuss causation and results. But the solution starts at home.



You have missed my point. It is the fact that parents after the first few years have little control over there child. ie Once they enter the school system. So, for the most part, the home has been taken out of the equation, unfortunatly.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Schools only provide one small facet of a child's total curriculum.


Total BS. The school in the past provided one small facet of a child's total curriculum, but, not anymore. The school has been called upon to teach sex-ed, phys-ed, general social behaviours, etc. This should be the parents domain, but, because parents don't want to deal with these things anymore they are offloading them on the schools. Which by the laws of the land, schools cannot provide these things to any degree of quality.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
It has been shown that different children using the same curriculum proceed at a different pace not merely b/c of their own personal ability, but b/c of their support system at home.


Don't these same studies say that a child is only significantly impacted with a bad home? ie divorce, abuse, etc. Which incidentally has nothing to do with a kid swearing. More likely a side effect of it.

You know, with the posts we exchange, I get the feeling more and more that you cannot tell the difference between cause and effect. You seem to treat them as one and not that one comes after the other. I know about cause and effect and have put forth ideas that get to the root of the problem not the symptoms.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Take away MTV, take away gangsta rap, take away violent movies, take away Big Macs, 24 hour soda fountains, Britney Spears - and the parents *might* have a chance.


So then, you are one of those black and white people. The situation is much more complicated than you make it as well and more complicated than can be discussed here.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
But let's provide the kids with a good stable foundation to be ready to understand and perhaps *appreciate* these things without being completely exploited by them.


Sheltering a child has never been good and never will be. I've had many friends that have been sheltered and they are not exactly well adjusted. Those that parents didn't try to shield them from the world, but, let it come at its natural pace are the ones that became the most.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
(Again with the food analogy)


I again make my disdain known for these analogies. They over simplify an obviously complicated issue.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
1. they are not overwhelmed with the sudden strong flavors and get completely turned off by the awfulness and intensity.


If a child never is able to overcome adversity then the will remain a coward or develop an over-inflated sense of self. ie I can do anything, which is ridiculous. By the way, what you suggest to do happens naturally with life.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
2. learn to appreciate and differenciate each new food and flavour.


So then, we treat our kids like they are stupid? Like they need to be spoon fed?

Those that are intellectuals will act out if they are not challenged. So, then this would make the problem worse. That is what it was with me, among others.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
3. learn whether the kid actually has certain specific food allergy.


What the hell is the real life parallel to this?


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
One lesson at a time, one thing at a time. Build upon the basis of prior experiences. Reinforce, build, and practice.


This will happen naturally. That is unless you take your 4 yr old to a rave.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
People worry about the weather - it's cold, it's hot, it's snowing, it's not raining. They worry about whether they will catch a cold. They worry about world population, earthquakes, world hunger. I ask myself the questions:

1. do I have control over it at all?
2. how can I have an influence over it?
3. what can I do to help/ aid/ solve it?


1 & 2 says to me that you have a need to be in control. If you have a kid and treat them this way you either break there spirit and have them become a sheep or you'll experience one hell of a backlash once the kid enters their teenage years. I know people that are examples of both.

3 lets me know that you actually believe that this is helpful. Which, to me, is kind of scary.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
We all have to do our part to help. If it's superior, it's superior. If it's better, it's better. If it's good advice, take it. If it isn't, don't. One does *not* have to slander another's advice. It only shows how closed minded one is. That sort of attitude prevents one from learning and I certainly hope that it isn't being passed on to kids.


Again, in whose opinion is it superior. Different cultures will have different values in general, never mind the range that that societies people will have.




That's my whole point. Why does it have to be superior or inferior at all?!


To quote you "If it's superior, it's superior. If it's better, it's better." Perhaps you should spend less time quoting zen masters and pay more attention to what you say and what you have said.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Why shut off the process of possible enlightenment and sharing of tidbits - calling the other fellow some unenlighten terms.


Quote them.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Make it a better place than we found it.


Yet the world continues to degrade. The main reasons being that people can't and/or don't think anymore. There are many issues that cause this and one of the many (and IMHO the biggest) is our schools not requiring the students to think or even do any real work anymore. Here are some examples (both high school):

1) I heard a news broadcast that stated that San Fransisco will no longer require there students to do homework as they already live a stressful life the the school doesn't want to add to that.

2) In Canada, at a teachers conference, there is talk that the physics students should no longer have to learn anything involving an inverse square law nor should the student be required to know how to solve a quadratic.

These things are appalling, and quite frankly, far worse that a little swearing. These will have lasting effects throughout the life of the child. Where as swearing is just something that someone does and (pretty much all the time) correct itself with time.

I do believe you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
How else could we pass knowledge around?


Mostly this is done from parents to child, school, friends, etc. Not some anonymous guy on a board.



Yes, but why does each parent have to re-invent the wheel each time?


Did you even read what I wrote? Parents to child. The child will raise his children as he was raised. This will usually (although getting less common) be done with the spouse. So, a combination of the two. Clearly, they aren't re-inventing the wheel. They are raising as they were raised most likely with some modifications that go more along there way of thinking.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Why not share each other's insights. It might work, it might not. Last time I check, people spend their time on this board as much as they spend: with their child, school, friends.


And where do you get this info? And what about that assumed spouse. Wouldn't they be with the child at that time? You assume too much and you make a moot point.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
What makes this board so especially criminal that you or I can't offer some friendly tidbit? Why shut off a potential source of good info/advice? If this place is so worthless - while hang out here at all?


Why can't you just take other people's criticism and let it go? Why do you think you need to defend this till the death? There are people that don't agree with nor appreciate such an approach to raising a child. If you really just wanted to dispense a tidbit, why stick around and beat a dead horse.

Besides, advice on raising a child will only be accepted from a trusted source (ie parents, friends, specialists, etc). You are not a trusted source. You are just words on a page. I know nothing about your true character as I have not met you IRL nor has the majority on this board. Why do you think that your advice is so special that you deserve this?

Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
And if you can offer solid and valid scientific proof that:

1. swearing indeed does not cause kids to hang out at the street corner and smoke


Everybody that I know swore from time to time and only a handful hung out on the street corner and smoked. If 1) was true then all of the hundreds of kids that I went to high school with would have been there right beside me.




Well, not very scientific... but in any case, what you are telling me thru (rather anectodal, even though personal experience) is that swearing indeed can cause kids to hang out at the street corner and smoke - just not in every case.

So for the moment at least, we can show that the following statement posted earlier is, in fact, untrue:

Quote:


"swearing does not cause kids to hang out on street corners smoking"





Do you have blinders on so bad that you need to see something that isn't there? Swearing has absolutely nothing to do with it. It was the type of people I hung with. People are not swearing.


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
2. listening to heavy metal doesn't cause kids to do school shooting
...
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
It's not just the music, it's the associated ideas, environment, behaviors, and people that makes the entire scene....





And whose ideas, etc would that be? The ideas that I get from the heavy metal that I listen to is ideas of freedom, don't trust authority just because they are authority, etc. These are all good lessons and those that think it's all about killing your mother and father don't know what they are talking about.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
If one listens to recorded sessions of just plain conversations describe how crappy, horrible, and decrepit the world is, filled with demons and killing and bang your head. Hey, not a whole lot of chance that one would end up thinking the world has some kind of potential and possibility - let alone a beautiful place filled with potential.


Looking at everyone I know and how they live there life goes against this line of thinking. How you ended up there I don't know. I will assume you listened to someone say it and just believed it without just cause.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
It might or might not *make* you do crazy things. It's certainly at the minimal self-reinforcing. e.g. I am depressed, so I listen to depressing music b/c it's fits the mood, which makes me kind of depressed... so I listen to depressing music...


These things are only true under the most cooked circumstances. They are not true in general.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
(and what's the beef with Heavy Metal, is there some sort of societal mar against Heavy Metal or something. Isn't Gangsta and Ska far more dangerous?)


1) no music is dangerous
2) heavy metal got a bad rap because it is the more extreme form of rock and roll which was demonized before it




Heavy Metal and like forms of music is demonized not only for it, but more so for all of the associated behaviours. If one just listens to Heavy Metal by themselves and go about the day - maybe it will be ok (though I certainly doubt it.)


You are being ridiculous. I listen to heavy metal music pretty much everyday yet I remain a productive member of society. In fact I've taken it upon myself to learn some Game Theory (because my university doesn't offer that course) and will start to prepare for the Putnam Contest shortly ( http://www.scu.edu/SCU/Departments/Math/putnam/).

Also, everyone I know throws in the face of this conjecture.

Quite frankly, I have the believe that I am wasting my key strokes discussing this with you. You have stuck to all that you believe in the face of logic. I'm not surprised as some of your beliefs aren't exactly logical. As such I will not waste anymore time on repeating myself and will only reply if you make a logical argument that is supported by something concrete. Also, if you wish to continue this on those conditions create a new thread. We have gone to far OT and loading this page wastes a lot of Haken's through-put.

----
"An airport gives a good cross section of the mentally unstable, doesn't it." -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River

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Monday, April 19, 2004 8:39 AM

JASONZZZ


Quote:

Originally posted by JustDavid:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
At such an impressionable young age, they should be taught how to get help when it's appropriate, how to deal with conflict, disarm the situation, and if completely appropriate and there are no absolutely no other options (I would say it's time to get help rather than swearing) perhaps other avenues.


This is a good example of why I think you're getting some opposition here.
First, you've said before that you're just offering suggestions, but your tone often comes across as preaching, and for me when it seems like someone is lecturing me, my gut reaction is to reject whatever point they're trying to make. From a teacher in a college class, I'm totally open to a lecture. But from most other sources, it just makes me turn off.




And from my experience, academics are the people who should lecture the least. Academics should do research and break ground in new theories. Unfortunately, very few academics have real live experience and applications. Few well studied academics are generalists enough to apply their field outside of very defined instances.

Like I said, the general attitude here is that "no one can teach me anything new". I hope that those folks can do a little reexamining and figure out that if we all help each other - just a little bit, we can all build something nice together.

The "preachiness" isn't my part - I challenge you-all to take anyone of my post and rewrite it to the point that you feel is *not-preachy*. That way I can learn something specifically on why either my words or the way I wrote was "preachy". Perhaps it was the words I used, perhaps it was my sentence structure - either way, I would be glad to learn more from you-all.

In exchange, I ask that you take a moment and reflect on why it is that we all have to reinvent every single thing on our own - brush me off if you must (as you said, I am but one small insignificant individual in a sea of people - like everyone of us are) - but don't brush off the idea. We can all build a better place together.


Quote:

Originally posted by JustDavid:


Second, many of us disagree with the idea that cussing is a significant evil, or that it leads to things like smoking or violence. I just can't see a connection there. From my point of view, cussing at the wrong time amounts to a social faux pas, like maybe eating spaghetti with your hands. People will disapprove, but not much harm done.

Thanks to Zoriah, CantTakeSky, and others further up the thread for all the kind words.


"Light it."



Let's move away from "cussing is a significant evil" - my entire point is that there are better things to do than cussing in most situations and a child should learn those things. I have already stated and many folks have stated the same that cussing can be useful at the appropriate time and the appropriate place - I've reiterated that there are probably better avenues to resolve the situation.

And I think you agree there. I believe your thoughts are (correct me if my interpretation from your post is incorrect) that. Your instruction to your child is that "you won't do that the next time". I take that to mean that - should the same (or similar) situation occur again, she will not use those words. I am thinking that you believe there are other avenues to explore, in this particular situation, besides swearing. In which case, what I've done is to model the situation with my kid and have them play act out the part, let their lips, tongue, brain, and body experience the different types of behavior that they could have done. That's all I want to say.



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Monday, April 19, 2004 9:28 AM

BLAZINGBUG


If within this community we may provide advice, allow me to propose two thoughts.

"Until thy feet have trod the Road
Advise not wayside folk."--Rudyard Kipling ("The Comforters")

"The true secret of giving advice is, after you have honestly given it, to be perfectly indifferent whether it is taken or not, and never persist in trying to set people right."--Hannah Whitall Smith

"Wacky fun..."

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Monday, April 19, 2004 10:52 AM

JASONZZZ


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
I think that's a lot wrong in this society. Something is going on that clearly with have future repercussions - you should speak up.


Then Maybe people should worry about more important problems. Such as, the dumping down of school curriculum, the worsening of the "me attitude", crimes becoming more violent, in fact society becoming more violent and disconnected (socially) etc. Swearing is hardly one of these top issues and is most likely a side effect of them.




We can discuss causation and results. But the solution starts at home.



You have missed my point. It is the fact that parents after the first few years have little control over there child. ie Once they enter the school system. So, for the most part, the home has been taken out of the equation, unfortunatly.




No, parents do not *have* to give up everything to the world. I've stated earlier in this thread that I am quite well aware of the fact the type of curriculum the school imposes on the parents nowadays. The home is not take out of the equation if you don't let it. Here, in our household, we work with our teacher every week and find out what's coming down the line; we keep a close tap on who the friends are in the classroom, who they hang out with, how they behave in the classroom, what they have been learning, what teaching methods the teachers use in each of the subject. All of this so that we can properly supplement the lessons that are going on in the classroom with what we can teach and how we can help at home - not just academically, but emotionally as well.

If you admit that you've completely given up control, then you must have. The school and teaching systems nowadays are relegated to doing what they have to do b/c they still believe in the things that must be taught to children - b/c a few parents care enough to take control of what's going on. None of these would be necessary if most of us care enough to offer advice to new parents and make sure that most of the kids are prepared to get into school - then be there for them and guide them thru the school years.

I hope that you don't truly believe that one has absolutely no control over what happens to a child once they enter school - I don't know if you have children or not (from your other threads, I gathered that you do not). The fact is, you do lose a little control, but by that time, it's time to let go a little and have them learn a little bit of the real world.


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Schools only provide one small facet of a child's total curriculum.


Total BS. The school in the past provided one small facet of a child's total curriculum, but, not anymore. The school has been called upon to teach sex-ed, phys-ed, general social behaviours, etc. This should be the parents domain, but, because parents don't want to deal with these things anymore they are offloading them on the schools. Which by the laws of the land, schools cannot provide these things to any degree of quality.




The school plays a comparatively small part in my child and our family's life b/c that's what we allow it to have. What we teach, how we supplement the material at home, all of the family activities we do together continue to far surpass what is done in school. We make what the teachers do an integral part of what our child do, but we certainly assert control of how the lessons are taken in. No, we can't control what they are spoon-fed along with the other kids, but we certainly work with our kids on what lessons are "learned".


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
It has been shown that different children using the same curriculum proceed at a different pace not merely b/c of their own personal ability, but b/c of their support system at home.


Don't these same studies say that a child is only significantly impacted with a bad home? ie divorce, abuse, etc. Which incidentally has nothing to do with a kid swearing. More likely a side effect of it.

You know, with the posts we exchange, I get the feeling more and more that you cannot tell the difference between cause and effect. You seem to treat them as one and not that one comes after the other. I know about cause and effect and have put forth ideas that get to the root of the problem not the symptoms.




I am quite well aware of causation and effects - thanks. The problem is agreeing on the root cause. Is it poverty? There are no singular root causes in a complex system. The harder you try to figure out one particular cause, the more wrong you would be. In the real world, there are a million things to worry about. I am not naming particular symptoms either. I am picking specific things that I (and each one of us) can do something about and prioritizing them. I can help my kids at home more readily and successfully than I can solve world hunger - case closed. Does that mean that I forget about world hunger - maybe, maybe not. With world hunger - what I can do is talk to people who are more immediate to the problem and help their cause. What I can do at home is where I (and my child) can reap the greatest benefit.

Look, you can't worry about every single global issue there is. If everyone focuses at what they can do and help out with the rest, we can all solve the problems better - not the other way around (of course, if your specialty *is* global issues - then maybe I can bend your ear a bit on that). Our present day school system is a direct illustration on what happens when we do not focus our attention at home and our kids but instead relegating it to someone else ( unfortunately for some of us, it's to someone more competent )

as a P.S., let me make it more clear that, cause and effect is a tool at the micro-problem level.
Once you get into a complex system, you have to use different tools (I am not saying cause and effect is not important at that level, but just there are much better tools).

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:




Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Take away MTV, take away gangsta rap, take away violent movies, take away Big Macs, 24 hour soda fountains, Britney Spears - and the parents *might* have a chance.


So then, you are one of those black and white people. The situation is much more complicated than you make it as well and more complicated than can be discussed here.




I don't see what you are getting at, maybe you could explain this issue more clearly? Here I illustrated things that kids at impressionable age just imitate without any real understanding. At this age, there are far more importatnt lessons than "Oops, I did it again", "Like a Virgin", "Shoot the banger" and whatever else the entertainment industry has to offer in those areas. We do watch selected cartoons, we do watch selected movies - but they are all based around what lessons can be gleamed.


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:



Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
But let's provide the kids with a good stable foundation to be ready to understand and perhaps *appreciate* these things without being completely exploited by them.


Sheltering a child has never been good and never will be. I've had many friends that have been sheltered and they are not exactly well adjusted. Those that parents didn't try to shield them from the world, but, let it come at its natural pace are the ones that became the most.




I am not absolutely certain where you draw the line on "sheltering". My opinion on the word "sheltering" is that a shelter offers protection. Sheltering in general is a good thing. But I digress.

Instead of "throwing out the baby with the bath water" (I hope that's a proper phrase to use as an analogy), and broadly generalize everything I've talked about as "Sheltering", we can talk about specific things that a parent can do to help a child to grow up and be a decent productive human being. I've offered some (that you generally agreed with in prior posts), perhaps you could offer some as well.

By sheltering, I take it that you mean that I shut the world out completely from my kids. If that's the impression that I offered, then I further offer the following to hopefully, help clarify:

I don't agree with shutting kids out from the world completely.

I don't agree with plugging their mind directly into the world unfiltered and unregulated at full PSI. The media and the world isn't what it was in the gentler years - the world is out to exploit kids where-ever they can. Look at Joe-Camel building their customer base, look at Gap selling tottler hip huggers, look at all of the examples where they are directly advertising to your kids.

I agree with providing a stable foundation to help them out in making their own decisions.

I agree with building lessons and letting kids exercise their mind and their behaviors within a structured environment, and when they are ready, use those new found lessons and take over (in that particular area) in interacting with the world on their own.

Case in point: for several weeks now we've been highlighting for the kids to observe the behaviors within the restaurant - the protocol when we enter the restaurant, how we get seated, what we go thru to evaluate the menu items, how to interact with the staff when ordering items, when requesting specific things, when then arrive with the refill pitcher, etc, etc. We talk about what their impressions are in getting what they need and what other people do - what constitutes service (good service in particular) We practice at home several times (play-acting) with them being the wait-staff and us being the wait-staff, etc. All of this not only let's them practice what they have observed and what we have talked about in a comfortable environment, it's fun, it gets us doing something interactively, it accelerates their learning, it allows them to *fail* within a safe confine. But this isn't all about restaurant ordering and proper restaurant etiquette. It allows the kids to get another notch on normal social interaction. It gets them a recipe for other types of commercial exchange/interaction. When they get this a couple of times, then we move on to the Grocer or other types of behavior.


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:



Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
(Again with the food analogy)


I again make my disdain known for these analogies. They over simplify an obviously complicated issue.




Alright then, I would use a new type of analogy when I've learned a new one. Similar to any situation where two people have to split a decision in sharing a dish for dinner in a fine restaurant - if you don't like my suggestion, you ought to offer one up. If you could offer one that we can both share and use - I would be glad to take it, learn it, and use it.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:




Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
1. they are not overwhelmed with the sudden strong flavors and get completely turned off by the awfulness and intensity.


If a child never is able to overcome adversity then the will remain a coward or develop an over-inflated sense of self. ie I can do anything, which is ridiculous. By the way, what you suggest to do happens naturally with life.




I am not sure where you are coming from with overcoming adversity. All I offered was a way to let my kid experience new things, slowly, a bit at a time. In the real world, it's called acclimation. They recommend similar usages for travelers - take the timezone ease a little at a time. Schedule no (or light) activities the first day, etc.

I am not exactly sure where "I can do anything" came from. But you must believe the same that "I can do anything attitude" - otherwise why would you persist in solving the world's problems before what is right immediately in front of you. For me, there is no reason to reject the "I can do anything" attitude outright - the problem is "whether I have the time to do it all".



Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:



Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
2. learn to appreciate and differenciate each new food and flavour.


So then, we treat our kids like they are stupid? Like they need to be spoon fed?




Kids are not exactly stupid. I know they are "not knowledgeble" if you mean that. I don't think you need logic to know that they don't know the "banana" or "creamed spinach" flavour if all they have been getting is mother's milk, formulas, and supplements.

BTW, what I described is not exactly rocket science. Each of my kid's pediatrician agreed that it is the best way to help acclimate a child to solid food. I just extended it to a lot of the way we teach our kids new skills.


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:



Those that are intellectuals will act out if they are not challenged. So, then this would make the problem worse. That is what it was with me, among others.




Not sure what you are getting at here. But I do challenge my kids, just not with the full force of the universe every single moment of the day. Trust me, kids will act up more if you don't give them only a little experience at a time. The "real" and "intense" flavor of something as innoculating as apple can overwhelm them, most kids will get turned off immediately. I am not saying feed them nothing but brand bread and water - I am saying a little at a time.

I am not exactly sure of what you experienced or why you were not challenged. Maybe you can talk more about this.


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:



Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
3. learn whether the kid actually has certain specific food allergy.


What the hell is the real life parallel to this?




Peanut allergies, wheat allergies... For god's sake, some kids are allergic to milk and juices. You can kill your kid if you don't know what's causing them to turn blue each time you feed them the kitchen surprise. Maybe you aren't into real life, but real death is plenty real enough.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:



Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
One lesson at a time, one thing at a time. Build upon the basis of prior experiences. Reinforce, build, and practice.


This will happen naturally. That is unless you take your 4 yr old to a rave.




If you are saying that I can drop my 4 yr old at a street corner and all this will happen naturally. Then I congratulate you on discovering a completely new type of humans. Kids demand a structure environment in which they are challenged (a little at a time), where they can learn and practice without possibility of great physical injury. where they can safely reinforce and build on what they have learned.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:



Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
People worry about the weather - it's cold, it's hot, it's snowing, it's not raining. They worry about whether they will catch a cold. They worry about world population, earthquakes, world hunger. I ask myself the questions:

1. do I have control over it at all?
2. how can I have an influence over it?
3. what can I do to help/ aid/ solve it?


1 & 2 says to me that you have a need to be in control. If you have a kid and treat them this way you either break there spirit and have them become a sheep or you'll experience one hell of a backlash once the kid enters their teenage years. I know people that are examples of both.

3 lets me know that you actually believe that this is helpful. Which, to me, is kind of scary.




hmmm... not sure where this is going at all. Why would you bother to do something if you don't have some influence over it. I think you take the word control as having only one single meaning and you have also either misinterpreted or twisted my words into something else. I don't necessarily wish to establish dominance over every single situation (or my child to that effect). Would it help you to understand if I were to use the words "having an influence over" or "something I can do or help"?

IAC, I've paraphrased myself above as an aid to clairfy:

( do I have control over it at all? )
1. Is this something I can effect a change?

( how can I have an influence over it? )
2. Do I have other ways or someone else who
can make a change to this?

( what can I do to help/ aid/ solve it? )
3. ur. what can I do to help/ aid/ solve it?


I don't know about you (no really, I mean it how ever number of ways you interpret that - I don't know about you), but I can't worry about things that I can do nothing about.

Really, god help you if you are constantly worrying about things that you *know* you can do nothing about - you must be going insane constantly worrying about things that you just can't do anything about.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
We all have to do our part to help. If it's superior, it's superior. If it's better, it's better. If it's good advice, take it. If it isn't, don't. One does *not* have to slander another's advice. It only shows how closed minded one is. That sort of attitude prevents one from learning and I certainly hope that it isn't being passed on to kids.


Again, in whose opinion is it superior. Different cultures will have different values in general, never mind the range that that societies people will have.




That's my whole point. Why does it have to be superior or inferior at all?!


To quote you "If it's superior, it's superior. If it's better, it's better." Perhaps you should spend less time quoting zen masters and pay more attention to what you say and what you have said.




That's exactly what I mean. "If it *is* indeed deemed better or superior. Then there it is." You didn't happen to have caught the sentence that I typed immediately after that, did'ya ? I also said "who cares about whether it's superior or better" because that wasn't my point of the argument. I never once injected that mine opinions or ideas is that much far superior that yours or any others. I offer just my view - it probably isn't even an alternative view - there are prolly at least 10 other people who are thinking the exact same thoughts as you and I right now.

As for zen masters - I can't quote them. They quote themselves.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:



Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Why shut off the process of possible enlightenment and sharing of tidbits - calling the other fellow some unenlighten terms.


Quote them.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Make it a better place than we found it.


Yet the world continues to degrade. The main reasons being that people can't and/or don't think anymore. There are many issues that cause this and one of the many (and IMHO the biggest) is our schools not requiring the students to think or even do any real work anymore. Here are some examples (both high school):

1) I heard a news broadcast that stated that San Fransisco will no longer require there students to do homework as they already live a stressful life the the school doesn't want to add to that.

2) In Canada, at a teachers conference, there is talk that the physics students should no longer have to learn anything involving an inverse square law nor should the student be required to know how to solve a quadratic.

These things are appalling, and quite frankly, far worse that a little swearing. These will have lasting effects throughout the life of the child. Where as swearing is just something that someone does and (pretty much all the time) correct itself with time.

I do believe you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.




Again, the school system is just something to supplement what the parent can teach their kids (and once the kid can learn to read, what the kid can teach themselves). There are plenty of things that they leave out at school or otherwise just plain half-truths (if not outright lies) served merely to perpetuate the academic system.

If you are half as appalled as I am, you do have the option to home school in most parts of the country.

Look, if the only thing I can do something about is the mole hill, that's where I will focus my attention. So call it a mole hill if you really just want to minimize it. I will continue to support the people who has to work on "the mountain". One thing I wouldn't do is to minimize their efforts if they can really do something about it. And I won't slight it just in a maniacal effort to beat them down.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:



Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
How else could we pass knowledge around?


Mostly this is done from parents to child, school, friends, etc. Not some anonymous guy on a board.



Yes, but why does each parent have to re-invent the wheel each time?


Did you even read what I wrote? Parents to child. The child will raise his children as he was raised. This will usually (although getting less common) be done with the spouse. So, a combination of the two. Clearly, they aren't re-inventing the wheel. They are raising as they were raised most likely with some modifications that go more along there way of thinking.




So, the biological process of birthing a child (I am not even going to get into what made the the other partner a father all of a sudden postpartum) all of a sudden imbues the parents with this wonderous knowledge automagically? I did read what you wrote and it didn't make sense, that's why I asked the questions that I did. Where the wheel gets reinvented each time is when each parent has to figure out yet another "new" way of teaching kids things.

I am starting to get the feeling that somehow you believe that the *parents* just go about the day doing whatever they feel like and somehow, like magic, the kids raise up themselves. Biologically as animals, babiees grow up without much other attention then food, shelter, and clothing. With few exceptions, the end result is what you get. A biological animal. All other bets are off.



Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:



Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Why not share each other's insights. It might work, it might not. Last time I check, people spend their time on this board as much as they spend: with their child, school, friends.


And where do you get this info? And what about that assumed spouse. Wouldn't they be with the child at that time? You assume too much and you make a moot point.




Not sure where you assume that my point is moot. If you could provide some supporting evidence, otherwise, I would just assumed that most of the rest of what you write is a red-herring.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:



Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
What makes this board so especially criminal that you or I can't offer some friendly tidbit? Why shut off a potential source of good info/advice? If this place is so worthless - while hang out here at all?


Why can't you just take other people's criticism and let it go? Why do you think you need to defend this till the death? There are people that don't agree with nor appreciate such an approach to raising a child. If you really just wanted to dispense a tidbit, why stick around and beat a dead horse.




I wouldn't assume to point out the same with the beginning of this long lasted discussion which was n't sparked by my need to defend "my position" as much as the need to vigorously oppose the idea of "offering a tidbit and accepting it" to begin with. I really careless on people who won't take this particular tidbit or not. But the idea that people are saying "You can't offer tidbits at all" on a community board is plain ridiculous, and very uncharacteristic of what we are all about.

If a dead horse wasn't worth beating, some of the world's greatest achievements can't be discovered. It's you and my steadfastness that makes revolutions worthwhile - it's not for folks who blink the first time they are offered something they disagreed with.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:



Besides, advice on raising a child will only be accepted from a trusted source (ie parents, friends, specialists, etc). You are not a trusted source. You are just words on a page. I know nothing about your true character as I have not met you IRL nor has the majority on this board. Why do you think that your advice is so special that you deserve this?




I don't presumed to be trusted, but you could take it as an advice and let it spark a conversation perhaps IRL. Talk with your own trusted source, it's just a tidbit - take it or leave it. (But I take it that you don't have many *trusted source* except for yourself. and Congratulations on winning the "No man is an island" award ) I offer to you again that there is no reason to *not* learn from a printed page. There are many authors out there who are personally unknown to you - by your logic, why would you learn from them? Do you have to know everything about your Professor's personal life before learning from them?

IAC, my entire deal is that you should not turn from a source of knowledge just b/c it's in this or that category; unless if you have examined it and saw that that the particular case is flawed...

There is a word for that particular type of attitude - it's prejudice. You have formed some sort of irrational and unreasonable preconceived notion about this particular channel.


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:



Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
And if you can offer solid and valid scientific proof that:

1. swearing indeed does not cause kids to hang out at the street corner and smoke


Everybody that I know swore from time to time and only a handful hung out on the street corner and smoked. If 1) was true then all of the hundreds of kids that I went to high school with would have been there right beside me.




Well, not very scientific... but in any case, what you are telling me thru (rather anectodal, even though personal experience) is that swearing indeed can cause kids to hang out at the street corner and smoke - just not in every case.

So for the moment at least, we can show that the following statement posted earlier is, in fact, untrue:

Quote:


"swearing does not cause kids to hang out on street corners smoking"





Do you have blinders on so bad that you need to see something that isn't there? Swearing has absolutely nothing to do with it. It was the type of people I hung with. People are not swearing.




??? que?

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:



Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
2. listening to heavy metal doesn't cause kids to do school shooting
...
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
It's not just the music, it's the associated ideas, environment, behaviors, and people that makes the entire scene....





And whose ideas, etc would that be? The ideas that I get from the heavy metal that I listen to is ideas of freedom, don't trust authority just because they are authority, etc. These are all good lessons and those that think it's all about killing your mother and father don't know what they are talking about.




Good for you... not everyone hears that or is capable of hearing that - especially not when one is bombed out of their mind.

Again, I congratulate you on your much in need of praise accomplishments. Accolates indeedy!

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:



Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
If one listens to recorded sessions of just plain conversations describe how crappy, horrible, and decrepit the world is, filled with demons and killing and bang your head. Hey, not a whole lot of chance that one would end up thinking the world has some kind of potential and possibility - let alone a beautiful place filled with potential.


Looking at everyone I know and how they live there life goes against this line of thinking. How you ended up there I don't know. I will assume you listened to someone say it and just believed it without just cause.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
It might or might not *make* you do crazy things. It's certainly at the minimal self-reinforcing. e.g. I am depressed, so I listen to depressing music b/c it's fits the mood, which makes me kind of depressed... so I listen to depressing music...


These things are only true under the most cooked circumstances. They are not true in general.




Er, again, I must claim that I must be the most non-original fellow there is. I didn't originate the ideas of self-reinforcing behaviors. I am afraid people much more eminent than I am did that. I just learn it and made as best as I could.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:



Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
(and what's the beef with Heavy Metal, is there some sort of societal mar against Heavy Metal or something. Isn't Gangsta and Ska far more dangerous?)


1) no music is dangerous
2) heavy metal got a bad rap because it is the more extreme form of rock and roll which was demonized before it




Heavy Metal and like forms of music is demonized not only for it, but more so for all of the associated behaviours. If one just listens to Heavy Metal by themselves and go about the day - maybe it will be ok (though I certainly doubt it.)


You are being ridiculous. I listen to heavy metal music pretty much everyday yet I remain a productive member of society. In fact I've taken it upon myself to learn some Game Theory (because my university doesn't offer that course) and will start to prepare for the Putnam Contest shortly ( http://www.scu.edu/SCU/Departments/Math/putnam/).




Again, Huzzah! Huzzah indeedy! You shouldn't be less proud of yourself. But is it because you listen to heavy metal that you can learn Game Theory, or is it just you? Since you know (obviuosly) more about cause and effect than I do, perhaps you would let me know that as well?

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:



Also, everyone I know throws in the face of this conjecture.

Quite frankly, I have the believe that I am wasting my key strokes discussing this with you. You have stuck to all that you believe in the face of logic. I'm not surprised as some of your beliefs aren't exactly logical. As such I will not waste anymore time on repeating myself and will only reply if you make a logical argument that is supported by something concrete.




What logic? Logic requires show of proof and rigorous methodical demonstration. Beliefs are by definition not logical. If they have been proven thru logic, they are no longer beliefs. I am quite surprised that you thought anything of what you or I have said were logical - or required logic. What's the point of discussion if what I have said can be proven incontrovertibly? It will be taken as the golden rule.

Frankly, I am just as surprised at you that this is being discussed and argued like it's some sort of watershed event in human history.

And even more frankly, the deal has always been, take it or leave it. The whole pervasive NIH (Not Invented here) attitude is pretty sickening ( I am too smart for any other person's ideas or tidbits, if it wasn't invented by me, then it bears no effort for my examination attitude ).


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:


Also, if you wish to continue this on those conditions create a new thread. We have gone to far OT and loading this page wastes a lot of Haken's through-put.




Haken's website have lived thru being slashdotted thrice over. If this is a worthwhile discussion, bandwidth matters not.

If you read Haken's first post in this thread, you might also gather that he is quite flabbergasted at the fact that a 10 year spouted those words.
But I wouldn't presume, you can read it and interpret as you like.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=4715#55285

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:



----
"An airport gives a good cross section of the mentally unstable, doesn't it." -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River






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Monday, April 19, 2004 11:16 AM

JASONZZZ


BlazingBug,

Agree with you 100%

Wouldn't have it or take it any other way...

Thanks for quoting them.


Quote:

Originally posted by BlazingBug:
If within this community we may provide advice, allow me to propose two thoughts.

"Until thy feet have trod the Road
Advise not wayside folk."--Rudyard Kipling ("The Comforters")

"The true secret of giving advice is, after you have honestly given it, to be perfectly indifferent whether it is taken or not, and never persist in trying to set people right."--Hannah Whitall Smith

"Wacky fun..."





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Monday, April 19, 2004 1:47 PM

SIGMANUNKI


I will only comment on this, because quite frankly, I find your other ramblings... well... ramblings.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
BlazingBug,

Agree with you 100%

Wouldn't have it or take it any other way...

Thanks for quoting them.


Quote:

Originally posted by BlazingBug:
If within this community we may provide advice, allow me to propose two thoughts.

"Until thy feet have trod the Road
Advise not wayside folk."--Rudyard Kipling ("The Comforters")

"The true secret of giving advice is, after you have honestly given it, to be perfectly indifferent whether it is taken or not, and never persist in trying to set people right."--Hannah Whitall Smith

"Wacky fun..."







Yet you persist.

----
"An airport gives a good cross section of the mentally unstable, doesn't it." -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River

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Monday, April 19, 2004 2:32 PM

JASONZZZ



Not sure what you mean. Regular normal everyday humans interaction actually would sort of demand some sort of directness. Vagueness leaves everything one guessing - and not the hallmark of an "intellectual". Intellectuals actually want to be understood and want to understand.

Now, not only are you being vague, but you have started to lace your commentary with some sense of contempt. If that's the way it is with how *intellectuals* are when they feel they have got nothing else better to say. I would say that you are correct and you have just proven the otherwise side issue that cussing does no good to people in general - quite apparently in your case, not only has it stunted your speech and vocabulary, but your thinking and thought process as well. shame...

I've asked you for examples of what your ideas on:

1. parenting (least of my concerns, obviously no one wants to really talk about this one)
2. sharing of knowledge in general
3. logic
4. how I could structure my writing better so as to not appear less "preachy"
5. a better analogy then my spaghetti analogy and food analogy in general.

But what I've gotten so far is bupkis... Oh wait no, I've got:

"Your rambling is ur... rambling"

You couldn't even point out what was rambling. I am looking for advice help from a self-prescribed intellectual - obviously maybe neither is the case.

If you've got issues with your own upbringing (you seemed to have alluded to them in two posts), you ought to bring it up with your own parents - I might have a few words, but I honestly don't have all mine sorted out yet.

If you have something to offer, something you can teach me, correct me, I welcome it. If you can further the discussion without reducing yourself to vague commentary and some passive-agressive "rambling", I welcome the discussion. I can certainly learn a thing or two from an "intellectual".


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I will only comment on this, because quite frankly, I find your other ramblings... well... ramblings.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
BlazingBug,

Agree with you 100%

Wouldn't have it or take it any other way...

Thanks for quoting them.


Quote:

Originally posted by BlazingBug:
If within this community we may provide advice, allow me to propose two thoughts.

"Until thy feet have trod the Road
Advise not wayside folk."--Rudyard Kipling ("The Comforters")

"The true secret of giving advice is, after you have honestly given it, to be perfectly indifferent whether it is taken or not, and never persist in trying to set people right."--Hannah Whitall Smith

"Wacky fun..."







Yet you persist.

----
"An airport gives a good cross section of the mentally unstable, doesn't it." -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River





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Monday, April 19, 2004 3:27 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by BlazingBug:
"The true secret of giving advice is, after you have honestly given it, to be perfectly indifferent whether it is taken or not, and never persist in trying to set people right."--Hannah Whitall Smith
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Agree with you 100%
Wouldn't have it or take it any other way...
Thanks for quoting them.




Then I said, "Yet you persist." I don't know how much more clear I can make it.


I said:
"""
I will only comment on this, because quite frankly, I find your other ramblings... well... ramblings.
"""

Which you couldn't even quote properly. I didn't show you anything because I didn't feel the need too. I still don't. Which is clear by what I had written. Then you proceed to insult my intelligence and scold me?!?

Let me say this. I am not a self prescribed intellectual. I am just good at what I do. I don't think that just because I get good grades. See below for my thoughts on grades.

I think I am good because I have been mistaken for a 2nd year student by many other students when I was in 1st year and chosen for a summer research position after that 1st year. The research I did, how another student entering his graduate studies put it, "What someone would be doing after there 3rd or 4th year." This year I had a prof offer to go around and promote me to the other profs doing research because his grant ran out. Otherwise I'd be working for him.

I have been told by those above me (way above me with regards to education) that I impress them, pretty much no matter what I have done. I have been the best cook at the "restaurant" where I worked when I cooked. When I went to school to become a programmer I was one of the best that was there. When I was in the IT industry I was one of the best programmers in the shop that I worked at (Didn't start that way, but ended up that way.). I have been among the best students in Physics when I was there and as for Math... the profs seem to think I am good as well. If fact one has stated that directly to me.

Does any of this require logic. Clearly, all of it does.

Does any of this make me an intellectual? Maybe, maybe not. To me, it just makes me good at things I like and try at. If some calls me an intellectual, super, if not, whatever. I know what I have accomplished and what I am.

To me grades only show that someone tests well. I know people that would intellectually crush those who have a ~4.5 CGPA, but, they themselves are around 3.5 CGPA.

And after your last post, if you think that I'm willing to continue this to any degree you're sadly mistaken. I'm done with this. It has become a drain on my time and I find it fruitless. Any further attempts to engage me will be ignored.

----
"An airport gives a good cross section of the mentally unstable, doesn't it." -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River

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Monday, April 19, 2004 4:40 PM

TOMTBA2004


ok, i didn't realize that chinese was so much like spanish. Sentences could partially change meaning depending on the situation (which is all you had to say) But the main thing i was saying and where i first got the translation from was that, the girl wacthed the show (and it is used as a "Holy s***" kinda way.) she took it from that and said it to a person but thinking it from the show. which would make no sense..Get what i am thinkig?

Ps. if you don't mind me asking how old are you and what nationality? I think it is kinda funny to people discussing the proper way of chinese and not being of the origin ourselves.

Have a nice day

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Monday, April 19, 2004 4:41 PM

TOMTBA2004


ok, i didn't realize that chinese was so much like spanish. Sentences could partially change meaning depending on the situation (which is all you had to say) But the main thing i was saying and where i first got the translation from was that, the girl wacthed the show (and it is used as a "Holy s***" kinda way.) she took it from that and said it to a person but thinking it from the show. which would make no sense..Get what i am thinkig?

Ps. if you don't mind me asking how old are you and what nationality? I think it is kinda funny to people discussing the proper way of chinese and not being of the origin ourselves.

Have a nice day

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Monday, April 19, 2004 6:19 PM

JASONZZZ


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:

Originally posted by BlazingBug:
"The true secret of giving advice is, after you have honestly given it, to be perfectly indifferent whether it is taken or not, and never persist in trying to set people right."--Hannah Whitall Smith
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Agree with you 100%
Wouldn't have it or take it any other way...
Thanks for quoting them.




Then I said, "Yet you persist." I don't know how much more clear I can make it.





I think you misunderstand quite a bit, let me sum it up and following me if you please.

I have explained time and again that the "parenting" tidbit about the cursing (which was simply that in my situation, I would model an alternative behaviour in addition to explain that cursing should not be done next time) was offered and that's it - take it or leave it. I certainly didn't obsess on it. So, I do agree with BlazingBug and his quotes absolutely.

However, what I do not agree with is the attitute of "I am not gonna listen to your yammering b/c I didn't invent me". My opinion is this completely NIH (Not Invented Here) attitude is complete lunacy.


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:



I said:
"""
I will only comment on this, because quite frankly, I find your other ramblings... well... ramblings.
"""

Which you couldn't even quote properly. I didn't show you anything because I didn't feel the need too. I still don't. Which is clear by what I had written. Then you proceed to insult my intelligence and scold me?!?




I para-phrased that time. I would have been more careful had I wanted to quote. Since I didn't feel that you had taken the care to explain yourself. IAC, was that phrase really worthwhile to quote in complete accuracy. I think I got your drift in a shorter phrase. Anyways, I had all the important morsels that you wanted to impart - did I not? I didn't insult your intelligence. But I meant what was in there - seems you ran out of words or thought and decided to attack me with some meaningless yammering instead. I stated it so.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:


Let me say this. I am not a self prescribed intellectual. I am just good at what I do. I don't think that just because I get good grades. See below for my thoughts on grades.




I gathered that you would be an intellectual from here.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=4715&m=56449#56420

About midway down. I don't think it was out of context. I quoted a complete thought there.

"Those that are intellectuals will act out if they are not challenged. So, then this would make the problem worse. That is what it was with me, among others."

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:


I think I am good because I have been mistaken for a 2nd year student by many other students when I was in 1st year and chosen for a summer research position after that 1st year. The research I did, how another student entering his graduate studies put it, "What someone would be doing after there 3rd or 4th year." This year I had a prof offer to go around and promote me to the other profs doing research because his grant ran out. Otherwise I'd be working for him.

I have been told by those above me (way above me with regards to education) that I impress them, pretty much no matter what I have done. I have been the best cook at the "restaurant" where I worked when I cooked. When I went to school to become a programmer I was one of the best that was there. When I was in the IT industry I was one of the best programmers in the shop that I worked at (Didn't start that way, but ended up that way.). I have been among the best students in Physics when I was there and as for Math... the profs seem to think I am good as well. If fact one has stated that directly to me.

Does any of this require logic. Clearly, all of it does.

Does any of this make me an intellectual? Maybe, maybe not. To me, it just makes me good at things I like and try at. If some calls me an intellectual, super, if not, whatever. I know what I have accomplished and what I am.

To me grades only show that someone tests well. I know people that would intellectually crush those who have a ~4.5 CGPA, but, they themselves are around 3.5 CGPA.

And after your last post, if you think that I'm willing to continue this to any degree you're sadly mistaken. I'm done with this. It has become a drain on my time and I find it fruitless. Any further attempts to engage me will be ignored.

----
"An airport gives a good cross section of the mentally unstable, doesn't it." -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River




Not sure why you felt the need for the dissertation on that part of your background. Was it a brag or was it an attempt at a Fallacy of False Authority? In any case, let it be known that while I am suitably impressed, but not persuaded.

But I certainly agree with you, grades, station in life, material worth, degrees, education, professorship, the kind of car one drives means a whole hell of a lot of beans to me. The only that matters is if you can work it, can you get the job done, can you benefit society, can you effect change, can you make it a better place. Nothing wrong if you can't, wouldn't think the slightest of you unless if you want to just tear the place apart.



I don't think it's honorable to abandon this conversation now, you have drawn me into this and invested quite a bit of time. You have also challenged quite a few assumptions of mine and took apart a few things that I have said. I offered to you that if you thought I was wrong, that should you offer me better examples - I am willing to make revisions.

So if you are no longer continuing this, then I take to mean that:

0. you can dish out challenges and hack apart other's statements, but you are unwilling to accept like challenges.
1. you have nothing else you could offer - either revisions or further examples.
2. you find nothing further to accurately challenge the basis of my offering.
3. you would just rather be happy sitting at the top of your various pyramids and would rather either not provide mentorship or would rather not be challenged at all.

Something we've learned in the last couple of years talking with various advanced eduation coordinators in our school district, the teachers thought that it was harmful to not place the more advanced students in the advance classes - they learn to cruise, they learn to simply be happy sitting at the top - always the best of the class. At the very first opportunity when they are truly challenged - something that they are perhaps not as well practiced at - and if they don't do as well (perhaps not at the very top) they fold, they crumple, they feel defeated.






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Monday, April 19, 2004 6:39 PM

JASONZZZ



Hi Tomtba:

I am glad now that you can use the phrase "Ta ma de" with full confidence of what it could be.

I am interested in finding out more about your thoughts on and maybe some comparative examples on how Spanish can do the same. I believe many languages exhibit the same type of behavior - those linguists on the board might like to share a bit on what this type of deal is called in linguistic terms.



Quote:

Originally posted by Tomtba2004:
ok, i didn't realize that chinese was so much like spanish. Sentences could partially change meaning depending on the situation (which is all you had to say) But the main thing i was saying and where i first got the translation from was that, the girl wacthed the show (and it is used as a "Holy s***" kinda way.) she took it from that and said it to a person but thinking it from the show. which would make no sense..Get what i am thinkig?

Ps. if you don't mind me asking how old are you and what nationality? I think it is kinda funny to people discussing the proper way of chinese and not being of the origin ourselves.

Have a nice day






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Monday, April 19, 2004 9:11 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
I gathered that you would be an intellectual from here.


Sarcasm or not, can't tell b/c the tone of your previous messages had become hostile. And below as well.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Not sure why you felt the need for the dissertation on that part of your background.


You insulted my intellect. It was an attempt to display that not only do I have one, I have what some think to be a damn good one. As in, not just my opinion. Nothing more.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
I don't think it's honorable to abandon this conversation now, you have drawn me into this and invested quite a bit of time.


I am rather charged right now. Give it a couple weeks and I'll see where I am then. If you're still interested and I'm ok with it we can discuss the finer points through the message system at our user profiles. And if you do, restate your arguments here. I will have forgotten them by that time.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
So if you are no longer continuing this, then I take to mean that:

0. you can dish out challenges and hack apart other's statements, but you are unwilling to accept like challenges.
1. you have nothing else you could offer - either revisions or further examples.
2. you find nothing further to accurately challenge the basis of my offering.
3. you would just rather be happy sitting at the top of your various pyramids and would rather either not provide mentorship or would rather not be challenged at all.


Funny you only pick the degrading options.

----
"An airport gives a good cross section of the mentally unstable, doesn't it." -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River

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Monday, April 19, 2004 9:29 PM

WHOODAHN


Isn't it fun to watch a simple thread take on a mutated life of it's own?

I feel like I just watched a new Fox reality series titled "Who's the Best Parent"

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Monday, April 19, 2004 10:30 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by WhooDahn:
Isn't it fun to watch a simple thread take on a mutated life of it's own?


On what do you base your definition of "fun"? Mutations require a genetic variable which you have failed to provide. Please explain.
Quote:

I feel like I just watched a new Fox reality series titled "Who's the Best Parent"

I don't know how you feel you are qualified make an observation like this. You've failed to support your position.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, April 20, 2004 12:03 AM

ZORIAH


Gives Sigmanunki a virtual hug.

Jasonzzz: Here's me sharing a little tidbit. I'm sorry but from your very first post your tone came across to me as a little proscriptive, didactic and superior. You have asserted that was not your intention, that you were merely offering up your opinion, engaging in discourse. While it was not your intention to sound like you were taking some kind of moral high ground and implying that Justdavid's methods of upbringing were lacking compared to yours - that is the impression I got from your posts.

I do not think that anyone here wants to or condones bringing up a child without guidance and support, however we may disagree on the best approach to achieve the most positive outcome.

Therefore I think that *unsolicited* advice on child-rearing that springs from an implication of perceived shortcomings should be avoided here. If Justdavid had asked for tips or advice on the situation with Leita then I would have no problems with your responses, however I feel that this thread that started out as a cute anecdote about a father and daughter has turned into an unwarranted lecture.
Just my thoughts.

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Tuesday, April 20, 2004 12:36 AM

WHOODAHN


Exactly

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Tuesday, April 20, 2004 6:28 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Zoriah:
Gives Sigmanunki a virtual hug.




My first virtual hug And thanks to yourself and Whoodahn.

----
"An airport gives a good cross section of the mentally unstable, doesn't it." -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River

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Tuesday, April 20, 2004 6:44 AM

JASONZZZ



Zoriah:

First of all, I got your tidbit, but if you could help me out a bit in figuring out how I could sound less "a little proscriptive, didactic and superior". Some selected bits on how yourself might phrase some of the things I've said. Usually, tidbits include a suggestion to improve something or an alternative method. To use my food analogy, "Try a bit of rosemary", or "I've used a bit more cumin before and the chili tasted great". Rather than "That tastes too tart", or "it's a bit saucy, no?", which are criticisms - and criticisms are fine. I just need more help as far as tidbits go, that's all.

I myself have been off of the "Child rearing" tidbit topic for quite sometime. But seems like everyone is all charged up about that and repeatedly brings it up. If the feeling that I conveyed is JustDavid's way is lacking (from the mere several posts that he had, I don't know how anyone can come to that conclusion from that thin sample) that wasn't my intent. However, the prevailing attitude is seems to be that "people can't seem to do *poorly*" and that "doing poorly is bad". Here's my take:

People can do poorly at times. But most times it's not a fault of their own. It's not *bad*. It just means that they need an alternative way or maybe they need a bit more practice.

There is nothing *wrong* in being wrong or doing poorly at all. The problem is people don't want to be *wrong* (they think it's *bad*, you see?)- improvements cannot come without that one realization.

Remember? "Failure is the mother of all inventions?"

I think I've said enough of that front. Unless if there are new thoughts regarding this - I am not really going to repeat anything here.


It is in the best of human interest for us to pool together our resources and gathered knowledge. I share a bit and you share a bit.

I myself think the best kind of advice are what you call "unsolicited" advice. Do you think Nasa engineers can use some "unsolicited" advice now and then? Exactly when we stand to be the most confident about our thoughts and way of thinking is when we should have a through examination of it.


Quote:

Originally posted by Zoriah:
Gives Sigmanunki a virtual hug.

Jasonzzz: Here's me sharing a little tidbit. I'm sorry but from your very first post your tone came across to me as a little proscriptive, didactic and superior. You have asserted that was not your intention, that you were merely offering up your opinion, engaging in discourse. While it was not your intention to sound like you were taking some kind of moral high ground and implying that Justdavid's methods of upbringing were lacking compared to yours - that is the impression I got from your posts.

I do not think that anyone here wants to or condones bringing up a child without guidance and support, however we may disagree on the best approach to achieve the most positive outcome.

Therefore I think that *unsolicited* advice on child-rearing that springs from an implication of perceived shortcomings should be avoided here. If Justdavid had asked for tips or advice on the situation with Leita then I would have no problems with your responses, however I feel that this thread that started out as a cute anecdote about a father and daughter has turned into an unwarranted lecture.
Just my thoughts.





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Tuesday, April 20, 2004 7:02 AM

JASONZZZ


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
I gathered that you would be an intellectual from here.


Sarcasm or not, can't tell b/c the tone of your previous messages had become hostile. And below as well.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Not sure why you felt the need for the dissertation on that part of your background.


You insulted my intellect. It was an attempt to display that not only do I have one, I have what some think to be a damn good one. As in, not just my opinion. Nothing more.




fine, except I didn't insult your intellect. You did self-describe yourself as an intellectual and you have some issues with how your parents didn't do you right. I merely pointed out that intellectual (people well studied) offers evidence and examples rather than slice and dice other's words and offer non-sequitors. Read what I have wrote, provide an alternative theory, then provide supporting evidence or examples.

Again, I am no longer in doubt that you are well priased. Fine, let's move on. I will never understand why Academics are always indulging these kinds of mutual adulation. Some Freudian thing, always seeking peer approval. Nevermind, it's not germaine to the conversation.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
I don't think it's honorable to abandon this conversation now, you have drawn me into this and invested quite a bit of time.


I am rather charged right now. Give it a couple weeks and I'll see where I am then. If you're still interested and I'm ok with it we can discuss the finer points through the message system at our user profiles. And if you do, restate your arguments here. I will have forgotten them by that time.




Well, if you are going to, fine. But if it's only a half hearted attempt, nevermind. If you grow tired of it, then it won't be interesting. I would rather not delve on boring things.


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
So if you are no longer continuing this, then I take to mean that:

0. you can dish out challenges and hack apart other's statements, but you are unwilling to accept like challenges.
1. you have nothing else you could offer - either revisions or further examples.
2. you find nothing further to accurately challenge the basis of my offering.
3. you would just rather be happy sitting at the top of your various pyramids and would rather either not provide mentorship or would rather not be challenged at all.


Funny you only pick the degrading options.




Again, with the snide commentary. Someone as eminent as yourself could provide a bit more help to the downtrodden here. There must be other options then? If you don't name them, then maybe other options do not exist. And if these are the only options, then it doesn't matter if they are degrading or not. Either way, these are the only options.

Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:


----
"An airport gives a good cross section of the mentally unstable, doesn't it." -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River





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Tuesday, April 20, 2004 8:48 AM

LIZ


since no one else will take you up on the request to try and restate your advice in what my be considered a more friendly manner, i'm going to give it a shot... Wish me luck!
BTW -- i put in the bit w/the translation just for context, i wouldn't change that.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:

Don't know where you got your translations from, but "Ta Ma de..." literally translates to Your/His/Her mama... but used in the same sense and generality as "F*ck" or "S*it"...

Kid 10 year old using that kind of language in China also stands around on the corner of the block smoking and beating each other up. If I catch my kid even thinking anything like that, we are going to go thru the 12 pack of Irish Spring before we are done.



How about -- "That phrase is cetainly not used in polite company. The fact that she cursed in Chinese doesn't negate the fact that she cursed; it just confused those at whom she cursed. I personally would be a bit stricter with my child. I think it's important to nip these kind of things in the bud, but then again, the situation may be drastically different than what i imagine. Nonetheless my child would have tasted Irish Spring before we were done because I would want to make sure that it didn't happen again."
I think that this would have gone over a bit better without having to lose the point of the message, which, as i see it, is that you would have acted differently and perhaps being more strict would be beneficial for the child.
If the conversation started like this it would seem like less of an attack and the other comments may have been taken in the manner you had intended -- friendly advice. just a thought.
I do see your point, but from what was described i think Leita did learn her lesson and probably won't be swearing in any language anytime soon.

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Tuesday, April 20, 2004 9:02 AM

BLAZINGBUG


If examples and advice will help, allow me. These quotes are from your first and third posts on this thread (skipping one related to translation alone).

Quote:

Kid 10 year old using that kind of language in China also stands around on the corner of the block smoking and beating each other up.


Explanation: It has already been stated that this child used "that kind of language." This statement by you infers that she will also engage in smoking (addictive behavior) and violence. It is therefore by inference an attack on the child's morality.

Advice: First, don't make statements you can't factually support. Second, don't make generalizations because they can never be supported. Third, don't write hastily; that leads you to see your words only within your point of view. That sentence could have had a much less antagonistic meaning if you had just inserted the word "regularly" before "using." More than likely, that's how you saw that sentence, but it isn't what you wrote.


Quote:

If I catch my kid even thinking anything like that, we are going to go thru the 12 pack of Irish Spring before we are done.


Explanation: Once more this reads as an attack. We know the child said this, and we know the parent's response. Stating that in an even lesser situation you would have reacted in a more extreme way is simply an indirect way of condemning that person's actions.

Advice: First, if you are making a point within the context of your situation, always clearly state it as your independent opinion within your comment. Second, hyperbole is only one step away from ridicule; you should always consider this before using it. This sentence would have been much different as, "I would have been more punitive with my child, but that's just me."


Quote:

Well... as my kids' Kteacher would put it so diplomatically (When we were applying our kids for the Magnet program) "A lot of parents think their kids are super bright"...


Explanation: After a description of the child's positive points by the parent, you open your reply with this disparaging remark on a parent's ability to assess their own child. Only later do you go on to state that you think the parent is handling their child correctly.

Advice: Never open a paragraph with a negative remark and then switch to positive statements. It makes the positive statesments look sarcastic.


Quote:

Leita did what she did b/c she didn't have an existing library of responses for that situation.


Explanation: Once more, you've made an attack out of your statement. The big problem here is that you have directly named the child and as such, the statement can have no other meaning than to refer to her. Then you state your opinion of why she did what she did as fact without any qualifiers whatsoever. Then that causation is based off what the parent should provide the child. Short translation: "You are a bad parent."

Advice: First, the third person is your friend. Second, remember the part about not making statements you can't factually support. Third, you cannot support any absolute statement, so don't make them. Qualifiers are your responsibility, not the reader's.

Hope this helps.

"Wacky fun..."

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Tuesday, April 20, 2004 9:23 AM

LIZ


ummm... yeah what he said. (that was much better than my attempt. well done BlazingBug!)

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Tuesday, April 20, 2004 11:57 AM

JASONZZZ


BlazingBug, thanks for the advice.

But you might have either misinterpreted or inferred a bit too much into what I said.

Quote:

Originally posted by BlazingBug:
If examples and advice will help, allow me. These quotes are from your first and third posts on this thread (skipping one related to translation alone).

Quote:

Kid 10 year old using that kind of language in China also stands around on the corner of the block smoking and beating each other up.





Obviously a reference to "Kids 10 years old using that kind of language in China" and what I know about them. It was indeed a good suggestion to reduce the amount of generalization and to something less. But I didn't make the immediate inference that Leita would do those things - rather I lend it as an impact for the type of things that Kids in China who use that particular phrase (It was a Chinese phrase) do that I know of.

I agree that I don't have hard stats on whether every single Kid 10 years old in China do exactly that. I could have used a better qualifier - thanks for pointing that out. Hyperboles aside.

And I would also not use the word attack, if it was an attack, I would have used better words and a bit more direct.

However, for the rest of it, you have mis-read what I wrote.

Quote:

Originally posted by BlazingBug:


Explanation: It has already been stated that this child used "that kind of language." This statement by you infers that she will also engage in smoking (addictive behavior) and violence. It is therefore by inference an attack on the child's morality.

Advice: First, don't make statements you can't factually support. Second, don't make generalizations because they can never be supported. Third, don't write hastily; that leads you to see your words only within your point of view. That sentence could have had a much less antagonistic meaning if you had just inserted the word "regularly" before "using." More than likely, that's how you saw that sentence, but it isn't what you wrote.


Quote:

If I catch my kid even thinking anything like that, we are going to go thru the 12 pack of Irish Spring before we are done.





BlazingBug, I (me) will think abit more about this one, but I am pretty sure this one stands on its own. I pretty clearly use the word "If I" and "we are going to" and "we are done". I might use your suggestion on using "but that's just me", but again, I'm not so sure about the rest. But obviously, at least a few saw/read it that way and generated that feeling...

Quote:

Originally posted by BlazingBug:



Explanation: Once more this reads as an attack. We know the child said this, and we know the parent's response. Stating that in an even lesser situation you would have reacted in a more extreme way is simply an indirect way of condemning that person's actions.

Advice: First, if you are making a point within the context of your situation, always clearly state it as your independent opinion within your comment. Second, hyperbole is only one step away from ridicule; you should always consider this before using it. This sentence would have been much different as, "I would have been more punitive with my child, but that's just me."


Quote:

Well... as my kids' Kteacher would put it so diplomatically (When we were applying our kids for the Magnet program) "A lot of parents think their kids are super bright"...





hmm... it's rather difficult with this one. I actually meant to place it in there for context.
I will have to think about this one a bit more as well.

Small difference - but I actually didn't open up that post with that particular phrase, but that's just being picky there - like I said inconsequential and very small minor difference.

Quote:

Originally posted by BlazingBug:



Explanation: After a description of the child's positive points by the parent, you open your reply with this disparaging remark on a parent's ability to assess their own child. Only later do you go on to state that you think the parent is handling their child correctly.

Advice: Never open a paragraph with a negative remark and then switch to positive statements. It makes the positive statesments look sarcastic.


Quote:

Leita did what she did b/c she didn't have an existing library of responses for that situation.





While I agree with your assessment (not the attacking part), you ought to grant me a little license here. Others obviously have taken the same exact license in their evaluation of the child's behavior (rather glowing positively) in exactly the same way without any qualifiers as "I think", "My opinion is that", or "I believe".


Quote:

Originally posted by BlazingBug:



Explanation: Once more, you've made an attack out of your statement. The big problem here is that you have directly named the child and as such, the statement can have no other meaning than to refer to her. Then you state your opinion of why she did what she did as fact without any qualifiers whatsoever. Then that causation is based off what the parent should provide the child. Short translation: "You are a bad parent."

Advice: First, the third person is your friend. Second, remember the part about not making statements you can't factually support. Third, you cannot support any absolute statement, so don't make them. Qualifiers are your responsibility, not the reader's.

Hope this helps.

"Wacky fun..."



I thank and value your assessment. It's constructive - eventhough I don't agree with parts of your assessment - it *was* constructive (rather than just watching the "you are wrong and I am sooooooo right" ball getting batted back and forth.) Of course, we don't have to absolutely agree, but I think we can be constructive nevertheless and I think you and I have bridged that gap here. Thanks... Obviously we can discuss this back and forth. Taken all of my posts (in this thread) together, I think you know where I am coming from - obviously, some of the things I agree that I could have used better qualifiers and phrased it in a better way. Others though, while not up to the *reader*'s responsibility - I think it also behooves both parties to challenge each other's assumptions and verify what is on the typed page. I can't water down the language far enough so that it can be exactly clear to all parties - look at legal documents, they were meant to be exact but actually resulted in the opposite effect, no one (including most law makers) can read, nor understand them.

So, if there are more discussion, I welcome them. More advices, tidbits, I will take them under advisement and clarify where I can. But I also invite the readers to confirm your suspicion if you believe someone is making a personal attack. The writer might be tired, it could be a language barrier, it could be a multitude of things. Let's share the burden of communication. It's a two way street.






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