GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

I think. . .

POSTED BY: STATIC
UPDATED: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 17:15
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Monday, April 12, 2004 5:24 PM

STATIC


Patience is probably dead.

We're discussing in another thread what villains from the original 13 eps. we'd see in the movie/new series and something occurred to me.

I don't think the Reaver ship was destroyed when they took Serenity into the crazy ivan and then went for full burn. They were tossed about, but then Wash or Mal made the comment of the Reavers not being able to 'come around in time' or somesuch.

SO. . .now we have a shipload of Reavers who are hungry, angry and humiliated. . .and look at that. . .here we are on a planet.

I'm betting they laid waste to Whitefall just as a tantrum sort of thing after being made to look stupid by Serenity. I figure that first the 'alpha male' of the party (going with the whole pack/tribe mentality) killed the pilot of their own ship for his failure, then they headed for town to satisfy the bloodlust of the rest of the group that had probably been worked into a frenzy with the notion of catching and boarding Serenity.


So I bet Patience is now a lovely dinner jacket.

==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

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Monday, April 12, 2004 6:03 PM

KINGOFKOINS


Well, that's nice for her then.

--------------------------------
It's sickening how comforting the privacy of the mind can be.
"Bible's broken; contradictions, false logistics. Doesn't make sense." - River
http://stripe.filetap.com

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Monday, April 12, 2004 6:05 PM

SEVENPERCENT


I could easily see Mal referencing that event later on, in a 'didnt you hear what became of Patience' sorta way- But, while this is a good idea, and highly possible, I'm not sure I'd go for it, and here's why-
Reavers apparently were very good at taking down unarmed transports and out of the way settlements, but Patience's gang seemed pretty well armed- And I'm betting what she brought with her to meet Mal was only a fraction of the force she actually had (just enough to take him down, or so she thought)- We have to face it, we just dont know with what or how well the Reavers are armed, or how many men they come with- Look at it like this- Lets say for the sake of argument that a Reaver crew is, oh, lets make it 35 (3-4x Serenity, based on ship size)- Now, 35 loonies armed with guns and knives are dangerous to transports and maybe small warships, and new settlements of a few hundred- But to a population of a couple thousand, led by armed personnel, not a threat (and I get the idea, call me crazy, that Patience runs a sizeable show)- Even if you up that number to 100 Reavers, same thing- There's only so many- And Patience and the townsfolk would obviously have seen the lightshow and been half-assed on guard-
But I have to admit, your way makes for better storytelling-

------------------------------------------
He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

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Monday, April 12, 2004 6:44 PM

WYDRAZ


The Reavers could have caught up with Patience in the valley before she made it back to town. That's my hope, at least.

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Monday, April 12, 2004 6:47 PM

DAVCO92


You're probably right Sevenpercent, but don't forget the role that panic could play in the situation. If Jayne is absolutely terrified of Reavers then imagine how some ordinarly townsfolk on the rim would react. Jayne may have first hand knowledge of Reavers, giving rise to his apprehension - but somehow I doubt it. It's probably based on rumors, which would likely have an even greater impact on civillians & simple hired guns. Either way, I figure them there folk'd run like spooked cattle. He he...steak on the hoof...fire up the grill, it's time to do some Reavin.

Burn the land, boil the sea...

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Monday, April 12, 2004 6:57 PM

SIGMANUNKI


I'm not so sure that patience could repel an assault. If the Reavers had say 100 and rushed a town from one end they could easily overcome the defenses at that point. I think it was said that Patience runs half that moon but that probably isn't just one town. And even if it is there probably a lot farming out there, etc. So, unless most of the people are armed, I give the Reavers a good chance at lunch.

----
"If you truly love the memory, you must set it free()!" -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 3:16 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:

Originally posted by Davco92:
You're probably right Sevenpercent, but don't forget the role that panic could play in the situation. If Jayne is absolutely terrified of Reavers then imagine how some ordinarly townsfolk on the rim would react. Jayne may have first hand knowledge of Reavers, giving rise to his apprehension - but somehow I doubt it. It's probably based on rumors, which would likely have an even greater impact on civillians & simple hired guns. Either way, I figure them there folk'd run like spooked cattle. He he...steak on the hoof...fire up the grill, it's time to do some Reavin.



Though I do not think Whitefall was hit by the Reavers, and it would appear from watching the show that the Reaver ship might have been destroyed, I do agree w/ Davco92.

The fear evident in Jayne and the crew at the mere mention of Reavers is enough to tell me that the average person who is not accustomed to combat is going to run scared at the thought of Reavers on their world. Patience and her hired guns might make a stand, so long as the odds are even or in their favor. Patience has a vested interest and would fight, but the problem w/ hired guns is that they normally break and run to protect their own skins if the tide turns against them.

I would also think we would have heard of a Reaver attack on Whitefall if it had happened. There would have been some mention of it in the series somewhere, perhaps the episode Bushwhacked since there was a Reaver encounter in it.



"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 3:42 AM

LIZ


i don't think the Reavers hit whitefall either... i mean, if they could take out a town or two, why would they bother to go after Serenity in the first place?

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 7:35 AM

HATEHATEHATEFOX


I often wondered what the ground effects were of the afterburn that Serenity left in atmo when they escaped the Reavers in the pilot. I mean, it looks like a B.D.Explosion and since they'd ignited the air (right?) would that mean it would burn all the way to the ground? Or would it alter the weather patterns of the planetoid since they must have ate up a good deal of the Oxygen out of the atmo?

These questions and more, brought to you by an idle mind.


~~~~~~~~
Nothing is ever so profoundly regretted as a kind act.
Robertson Davies

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 8:42 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Interesting things to ponder HateHateHateFox. I would think that the effects would not be widespread or too detrimental to the atmo or enviroment. If it had wide ranging effects I don't think Mal would have suggested it and someone would have spoke up if it were.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 8:58 AM

SEVENPERCENT


Quote:

Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
Interesting things to ponder HateHateHateFox. I would think that the effects would not be widespread or too detrimental to the atmo or enviroment. If it had wide ranging effects I don't think Mal would have suggested it and someone would have spoke up if it were.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."




I have to say I very rarely disagree with BC1, but this is one of those times- While I agree that I doubt the burn had any long range effects on the environment other than a nice fireball and a cool lightshow, I have to disagree on the "stopping to consider the impact" point- No offense, but if I'm ever being pursued by flesh-eating cannibals, you can be damned sure the last thing on my mind would be environmental impact- Even as nice as Mal really is inside, he's worried about him and his, not the impact on Patience's little moon- As far as the speaking up goes, can anyone really see any one saying "I'll be glad while they're raping us to death that all the little birdies will be safe" - No way Jose (or no way BC1, )
They're gettin' the hell out, consequences be damned (and driving fast and eating cheese, if anyone out there gets the reference) -

------------------------------------------
He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 9:27 AM

SIGMANUNKI


I think it was Zoe that mentioned that full burn in atmo is a dangerous thing to do. I wish I had my DVD's to check on what was exactly said. Anyone?

----
"If you truly love the memory, you must set it free()!" -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 9:30 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:

Originally posted by SevenPercent:
Quote:

Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
Interesting things to ponder HateHateHateFox. I would think that the effects would not be widespread or too detrimental to the atmo or enviroment. If it had wide ranging effects I don't think Mal would have suggested it and someone would have spoke up if it were.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."




I have to say I very rarely disagree with BC1, but this is one of those times- While I agree that I doubt the burn had any long range effects on the environment other than a nice fireball and a cool lightshow, I have to disagree on the "stopping to consider the impact" point- No offense, but if I'm ever being pursued by flesh-eating cannibals, you can be damned sure the last thing on my mind would be environmental impact- Even as nice as Mal really is inside, he's worried about him and his, not the impact on Patience's little moon- As far as the speaking up goes, can anyone really see any one saying "I'll be glad while they're raping us to death that all the little birdies will be safe" - No way Jose (or no way BC1, )
They're gettin' the hell out, consequences be damned (and driving fast and eating cheese, if anyone out there gets the reference) -

------------------------------------------
He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.



I can see your point, but I did not mean to imply an impact on the immediate area would bother Mal & crew, but rather an impact on the moon itself or its atmo. If their burn altered the atmo so it was harmful to the people there, I don't think Mal would have done it. He would have come up with another plan.

Now if the burn only affected the area below their trajectory and a few plants and animals were harmed, I don't think he would be concerned.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 10:01 AM

BADGERSHAT


I gotta say--

I honestly think that the Reavers don't leave their ship, except to board another ship in space. I get the idea that sunlight, real ground, and un-recycled atmosphere disagree with them greatly.

I think they just got caught up in the explosion, got knocked around a bit, and then left for space again, to carry on as usual.

Also, I think they are just one of countless Reaver ships, and have short memories anyway--why would they remember Serenity specifically, if she's only one out of a whole class of ship?

--The Hat

***************************
"I like smackin 'em"--Jayne

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 12:34 PM

ANNIGERRIA


Static, you have a wicked sense of logical consequenses...

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 1:27 PM

TALVIN


Regarding the Reaver ship being destroyed or not...

If you watch "Serenity" with the commentary, Joss and Nathan do briefly discuss it. A bit much to quote from memory, but it was an important point that the crew did NOT win, they did NOT destroy the bad guys...they just lived. They got away.

So Joss, at least, thinks the Reavers survived that little set-to. I suspect his opinion matters.

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 2:11 PM

MORDRAIG


There was mention in an eppisode where a town was hit by reavers so the theory that they only prey on space faring traffic is out.

When they were passing the Reaver ship, Jayne's selection of weapons was interesting to me. He grabbed a single shot weapon with what looked to be about a 40mm round. Not very effective against a great deal of raiders but damn sure the biggest thing he had. He didn't grab Vera which is his pride and joy.

We all saw how the survivor of the reaver attack mutilated himself and how he reacted when he went nutsoid. But he was still just a survivor and not a full blown Reaver. Me thinks they are hard to put down in a terminator kind of way ... will keep coming until they are just itty bitty pieces. Might even have some level of psychic abilities which would explain the Blue Hands mind meddeling with River and others as perhaps a direct weapon against the Reavers?

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Tuesday, April 13, 2004 3:14 PM

SENTRY001


Hi there this is my first post.

I don't think the Reavers could take out the entire population of whitefall, besides the fact that doing so doesn't really fit with what we've been told about how they attack. From what we know about them (which is very little really) they are presented as more the 'hit and run' types. They attack the transport in Bushwacked which did have a fare amount of people on it maybe enough for a small village no more, they do give a rough number but I don't recall it. We also know for fact that they don't always attack it seems they attack when they are hungry and if they are not there is a good chance they will pass you by, as seen when we first see them in the pilot. It wouldn't really fit to have them take out all of Whitefall just on the fact that they wouldn't need to eat that many people. They might wipe out a town or a very large farm but when they are full they would run.

As said in the commentary they didn't destory the Reavers they just got enought time to get away. I agree the Reavers would be really mad but not enought to try and kill the whole population of the moon. It would be dumb for the Reavers to try, remember though they are crazy they aren't stupid We get the empression that Whitefall is a farely big place, not just one town, most likely a few towns all run by Patience.

I have personally always thought it would be cool if the Reavers picked up Dobson though. I sort of think he lived, I don't remember them checking to make sure he was dead before they tossed him out the cargo bay door. That would open up the idea that he could come back at some point. He was already pretty crazy to start with so maybe the Reavers would make him one of their own. It would be really cool and would be a nice pay off if when the show comes back to tv and they finaly get to have a face to face with the Reavers that Dobson would be one of them, all freaky looking with a huge scar where mal shot him

keep flying...

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Wednesday, April 14, 2004 1:28 AM

LJOSALF


Quote:

Originally posted by Mordraig:
When they were passing the Reaver ship, Jayne's selection of weapons was interesting to me. He grabbed a single shot weapon with what looked to be about a 40mm round. Not very effective against a great deal of raiders but damn sure the biggest thing he had. He didn't grab Vera which is his pride and joy....Me thinks they are hard to put down in a terminator kind of way ... will keep coming until they are just itty bitty pieces. Might even have some level of psychic abilities which would explain the Blue Hands mind meddeling with River and others as perhaps a direct weapon against the Reavers?



All interesting points and worth considering. I would like to point out that Inara is calmer and more in control than Jayne is in this sequence. Jayne's hands shake as he is loading his gun. Here's a thought: if you invert the stereotypes--as Joss has been known to do--instead of "big, tough man preparing to fight tooth and nail; weak, ineffectual woman contemplating suicide to spare herself the horror", you have Inara reaching for an effective weapon and Jayne making sure he didn't suffer when the Reavers overwhelmed the ship as they surely would have, had they attacked. Joss does mention in the commentary that Inara's hypo is not the suicide method it appears on the surface to be and Jayne is always the most unnerved whenever Reavers are mentioned.

Just a thought.

Ljosalf

The voyage of discovery is not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes.
Marcel Proust (1871 - 1922)

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Wednesday, April 14, 2004 1:54 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


I think it is possible the Reavers attacked somewhere on Whitefall out of frustration of not capturing Serenity. But when you consider the amount of time the chase took up before they performed the Crazy Ivan and full burn, they were probably halfway around to the other side of the moon from where Patience was.




wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Wednesday, April 14, 2004 5:22 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Sentry001 wrote:

Quote:

Hi there this is my first post.


Welcome to the board Sentry001. Glad to have a new face w/ us. Hope to see you posting regularly w/ us.

As to the Reavers on Whitefall, I did rewatch the episode last night, and the Reavers in fact did survive the burn. You see thier ship tossed about a bit, but not destroyed. Zoe's comment was "They'll never turn in time to catch us now" or something to that effect.

I have to agree that one Reaver ship would never attack Whitehall. The impression we get is that Patience has a sizeable community there and something would have been mentioned of a Reaver attack if they did hit Whitehall.


"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Wednesday, April 14, 2004 11:14 AM

BADGERSHAT


Hello, time for a few more cents from The Hat--

I think it's important to keep in mind that the Reavers are human. Yes, Jayne reached for the biggest gun he had (not Vera, I think because Vera hadn't been introduced yet, and was conceived of later by Joss for the Our Mrs Reynolds ep).

I think Jayne is a really bad ass dude, with the typical paranoid fears that most bullies have about something or another (I was regualrly harassed in grade school by a guy with a serious attitude... he'd constantly take on the biggest and baddest without batting an eye, but he would run screaming at the sight of a Daddy Long Legs).


Obviously, the Reavers are the baddest of the bad, but I think that, like many predators, they choose specific targets. If they fail to bring in their prey, they don't go on a random strike tantrum, that wastes too much energy.

They probably wouldn't have bothered with Whitefall, and would simply have gone back to their previous path in space.

And, do we KNOW the Reavers attacked a town? I don't recall the actual mention--was it history, or a Kaiser Sose moment? Was it something that was passed down person to person, like a myth?

I also get the impression that the Reavers, while they cooperate when striking, probably don't even get along with each other too well, so I doubt there's too many on one ship...


--The Hat

***************************
"I like smackin 'em"--Jayne

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Wednesday, April 14, 2004 4:42 PM

MORDRAIG


The mention to a town being hit by Reavers was in Serenity. After getting the brush off by Badger and discussing where they could sell the loot, Mal runs down a list of possibles. "Capshaw's brain blown, Rubik's dead" Zoe "Rubik's dead?" Mal "Town got hit by Reavers" Jayne "I aint goin no where near Reaver's, them people aint right" or something to that effect ... my memory might be a bit fuzzy on the wording.

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Wednesday, April 14, 2004 5:15 PM

STATIC


A few things to consider. . .and bear in mind, we really know almost NOTHING about Reavers, so this is all educated guesses. . .

I'm thinking Reavers culture is something of a pack/tribe mentality with the leadership coming from and 'alpha' type character. . .whomever is the biggest, meanest in the group. Here's a scenario. . .

The ship full of Reavers, as Mal suggests, probably a raiding party judging by their size, passes Serenity. Maybe they just hit somewhere, or maybe they were on their way somewhere specific. Now, since Serenity didn't run, the Reavers didn't chase. This is very similar to behavior we see in the animal kingdom. . .don't make eye contact, don't show fear.

BUT. . .the Reavers are not a single being, and I don't think it's a 'hive mind'. . .but as I stated before, more of a 'pack mind'. The current Alpha figures not to bother with Serenity, and one of the lesser males takes issue with that. There is some sort of power struggle, the lesser male kills the Alpha male. Watching the conflict gets the Reavers all in a tizzy, and the NEW leader now has a boatload of Reavers who are a mite hungry. That's why it took so long for them to actually get around to going after Serenity in the first place.

Like I said before. . .attacking Whitefall afterwards would PROBABLY be necessary to sate the blood lust built up from the chase (and possibly the previous fight between former alpha and current alpha).

Think pack animals.

==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

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