GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Boycott Fox? You've got to be kidding.

POSTED BY: THRAWN
UPDATED: Friday, April 9, 2004 03:37
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 12114
PAGE 1 of 2

Sunday, April 4, 2004 1:52 PM

THRAWN


So, especially after Wonderfalls, there seems to be a HUGE number of people with the general thought "That's it. I'm done. I'm never watching a single Fox show ever, period."

I ask you - what are you hoping to accomplish? You think you're going to drive Fox out of business? You have no chance. No CHANCE. If everyone that ever watched Firefly or Wonderfalls never watched another Fox show again, we'd still barely make a dent. Fox's general audience is so completely different from those shows that us boycotting them isn't going to accomplish anything useful.

It will, however, accomplish one thing very well - the NEXT time Fox buys a Firefly, or a Wonderfalls, the audience that would watch it, the audience that would keep it on air, will be boycotting the network, so it will fail AGAIN. And the exact same thing will happen. All you're going to accomplish by refusing to watch anything Fox ever produces is help prevent Fox from ever producing anything interesting. Which, it seems to me, is exactly the opposite of what you'd want.

There is no conspiracy here. The only reason Fox cancels shows is because they tank. If you look at the Wonderfalls ratings, they fell sharply, from an already fairly bad first number. Granted, Fox is worse than most at promoting these shows and placing them in positions where they will be watched, and it's likely that they made a mistake by cancelling it early, but it's not because they're evil malicious conservatives or because they have a death feud against Tim Minear. It's because they don't understand how it takes a long time for cult followings to develop, and aren't willing to grant the time it takes for that to happen.

If we're ever going to get a show like this to stick around, we're going to have to show them that it's profitable for that to happen. Which means, first and foremost, that we have to actually watch it. Fox may be an unusually pathetic and incompetent network, but that's two good shows in a row they've been interested in and bought, and that failed because not enough people watched them. It's mostly their fault, but it's partially ours, too.

Don't boycott Fox, and don't assume that we'll never get one of these to work. All you're doing is causing more harm than good, and reducing the possibilities for more creative shows in the future. By all means, don't watch the bad ones - avoid any and all reality TV like the plague - but if you see one that looks interesting, watch it. And if you like it, get other people to watch it.

You never know what we can do when we try hard enough.


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 1:58 PM

KALIMEERI


How can they tell if my TV is off or if it's on, what channel I'm watching? Do they care?

Jen dao mei.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 2:05 PM

THRAWN


Obviously, they can't tell. But that works against the argument, too - if they can't tell you're not watching their network, what good does it do if you boycott?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 2:18 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Why does Fox put forth such effort to go w/ a show like Firefly, John Doe, Wonderfalls ,etc.. and not promote it? It's such a waste of talent to put forth these great shows and then just cancel them after as little as 4 weeks.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. Worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 2:29 PM

CALHOUN


I'm sorry but Fox has done its dash with me! We may not be able to hurt Fox by blacklisting them but to me its the principle that counts. They have shown far too much incompetence and ruined too many good things. So I had my Fox cable TV disconnected and when they begged me to leave it on I said BRING BACK FIREFLY YOU BASTARDS!

It felt good and I am not missing any of the TRIPE! they continue to show.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 2:48 PM

SLOWSMURF


Actually I found the promotion, at least before it aired, for John Doe quite good.

In fact, it was so good(compared to Firefly's) that it was the only reason I even saw firefly! Then within a few episodes I lost a good portion of my interest, firefly becoming why I tried to watch. As soon as firefly was canceled, I never even bothered trying to watch John Doe.

I think thats quite good evidence what the marketing can do for a show however.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 2:54 PM

RKLENSETH


Quote:

Originally posted by Calhoun:
I'm sorry but Fox has done its dash with me! We may not be able to hurt Fox by blacklisting them but to me its the principle that counts. They have shown far too much incompetence and ruined too many good things. So I had my Fox cable TV disconnected and when they begged me to leave it on I said BRING BACK FIREFLY YOU BASTARDS!

It felt good and I am not missing any of the TRIPE! they continue to show.



Note, FOX Network TV is a different company run by different people. I would be pretty sure that FOX Cable is a different company as well as there is FOX News, 20th Century FOX, and probably a few more. Don't screw all of FOX companies because an idiot executive in FOX Network TV screwed up. Screw FOX Newtork TV and I won't care but the rest of it shouldn't be. It was 20th Century FOX that was nice enough to put the show onto DVD and it was them that sold the movie rights to Universal Studios.

Oh, and play Cantr II at www.cantr.net.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 3:04 PM

ZOID


I have been boycotting not only Fox, but their show sponsors as seen in TV Guide and fishwrap ads as well, since they canceled Firefly. I sincerely hope they don't enlist Boddington Pub Ale as a sponsor, 'cause I'd miss it, but...

I don't believe my actions will cause Fox to go broke or shut its doors. That's not what I'm shooting for.

I'll start watching Fox (soft 'u' sound) primetime TV again, the very same day I see an announcement stating their programming team have been FIRED... Sorry for shouting, but those idiots need to be flipping burgers some place. It'd also be nice to get a blurb from Fox stating that they 1.) needed to go in a new direction, with 2.) people who knew something about quality programming, and that they 3.) had placed an strict ban on hiring the board of directors' immediate family members to positions where intelligence was essential.

The person or persons responsible for cancelling Firefly, in particular, have no business being in the field of entertainment. As soon as I hear they are no longer working at Fox, I'll tune in their shows again.

'Til then, not. It's not so much about a desire to hurt Fox as it is not to get screwed by these ignoramuses again. To quote Mr. Scott, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."


Respectfully,


zoid




_________________________________________________

"River didn't fix faith. Faith fixed River."

- Senator Richard 'Book' Wilkins, Independent Congress
author of A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 3:28 PM

INFRA172


Want to know how you can hurt the networks who cancel your shows? DONT BUY THE DVDs! Don't buy the Wonderfalls DVDs when they come out. Download pirated versions.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 3:41 PM

GHOLA


Quote:

Originally posted by infra172:
Want to know how you can hurt the networks who cancel your shows? DONT BUY THE DVDs! Don't buy the Wonderfalls DVDs when they come out. Download pirated versions.


Of course then Fox can't see that people will actually pay for Wonderfall's downloading pirated versions of Wonderfalls instead of buying the DVD's hurts Wonderfalls and it doesn't make that much difference to Fox.

I agree with the original poster completely. I watch what I like(now that's just 24) on Fox and avoid what I don't(everything else). I'm not going to boycott Fox because that won't do anything as I don't have a nielsen ratings box and even if I did that'd just be more of a reason to watch the (what very little of it there is) quality programming on Fox. I don't like it that Firefly and Wonderfalls got cancelled but it's honestly not that big of a deal to me either if I'm going to start boycotting someone I'd rather it be a company that I have a actual moral problem with not a company that just cancelled a TV show (however good it may have been).

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 3:52 PM

INFRA172




Alright. All the morons who don't know anything about business or economics stop posting here.

Stop buying the DVDs for these shows. Did it ever occur to you that the WB or Fox might cancel a show you like so that they can accelerate the release of the DVDs so that they can make a quick buck?

Here's how we'll win this: DESTROY NETWORK TELEVISION! Stop watching shows on network television. Start watching shows on cable. Cable shows aren't cancelled for political reasons like Wonderfalls or Firefly. Yes, I said political. Idiots who come on here and say its all about the ratings don't know what they're talking about. Wonderfalls and Firefly were cancelled before they even premiered. A network doesn't put a show on Friday night that they want to succeed. So no ammount of watching or not watching any particular show is going to change the situation.

We need to shift the money to cable networks. People abandoned network news for CNN and Fox News. News coverage on television is better than ever. The same could be true for our television shows. Hurt the major networks as much as you can so that the next time Joss wants to create a show, someone like the Scifi channel will pick it up.

Or don't listen to me and watch Fox create a new show you love every season just to crush it a few weeks later. Just keep thinking that "Yeah, next year we'll convince the heartless bastards to keep the show."


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 3:56 PM

GHOLA


Quote:

Originally posted by infra172:
Yes, I said political. Idiots who come on here and say its all about the ratings don't know what they're talking about. Wonderfalls and Firefly were cancelled before they even premiered. A network doesn't put a show on Friday night that they want to succeed. So no ammount of watching or not watching any particular show is going to change the situation.


Please tell me how this is political if Fox didn't like the show why would they bother putting money into it in the first place? I'm not saying that Fox is supportive of some of their shows but I can't see any reason why they'd create a show just so they could cancel it.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 3:57 PM

THEFOP


HAH. I feel a sense of moral superiority. I've not watched fox since shortly after Firefly was cancelled.


Course, I haven't had cable since shortly after Firefly was cancelled, so.........



once the snow got so deep you almost couldn't hear margaret atwood

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 4:12 PM

SAINT JAYNE


Quote:

Originally posted by infra172:
Alright. All the morons who don't know anything about business or economics stop posting here.


This is a free forum. We even let you post here.

If someone takes action like boycotting Fox on principle (or even because they think they can single handedly change the world!) then more power to them. I personally cancelled my cable subscription because I don't care for anything on the tube these days.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 4:18 PM

THRAWN


Quote:

Originally posted by infra172:


Alright. All the morons who don't know anything about business or economics stop posting here.

Stop buying the DVDs for these shows. Did it ever occur to you that the WB or Fox might cancel a show you like so that they can accelerate the release of the DVDs so that they can make a quick buck?

Here's how we'll win this: DESTROY NETWORK TELEVISION! Stop watching shows on network television. Start watching shows on cable. Cable shows aren't cancelled for political reasons like Wonderfalls or Firefly. Yes, I said political. Idiots who come on here and say its all about the ratings don't know what they're talking about. Wonderfalls and Firefly were cancelled before they even premiered. A network doesn't put a show on Friday night that they want to succeed. So no ammount of watching or not watching any particular show is going to change the situation.

We need to shift the money to cable networks. People abandoned network news for CNN and Fox News. News coverage on television is better than ever. The same could be true for our television shows. Hurt the major networks as much as you can so that the next time Joss wants to create a show, someone like the Scifi channel will pick it up.

Or don't listen to me and watch Fox create a new show you love every season just to crush it a few weeks later. Just keep thinking that "Yeah, next year we'll convince the heartless bastards to keep the show."




*I* don't know anything about business or economics? And you're telling me to stop buying DVDs for shows, and that the only reason Fox cancels shows is POLITICAL?

THINK about this. Fox cancels a show. The DVDs sell amazingly well. Now there's no more show being made for them to sell DVDs of, and that's lost profits for THEM. There is absolutely no reason they would ever cancel a show to expediate it going to DVD. If it would sell well on DVD, it would sell better on DVD if the show was running with new episodes.

And, as regards the Friday timeslot thing - you're a network exec. You have an enormous amount of successful reality shows, or whatever, and this weird sci-fi thing you don't quite understand, with a long-standing precedent of sci-fi shows dying quickly. You're going to attempt to capitalize more on the shows you KNOW will do well, rather than the shows you think will probably fail. It is, as you say, economics.

The problem lies with them thinking the show will probably fail, and so attempting to advertise it like another piece of lowest-common-denominator fluff. That's something we have to fix. And in order to do that, we have to show them that shows like these are successful.

How is Fox going to make money if they air all their shows for political reasons? That makes no sense at all! They air shows that make them money. Wonderfalls and Firefly didn't. Period. It's the fact that they didn't do well that we should be focusing on, because that's reason they were cancelled.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 4:19 PM

TOMANTA


Quote:

Originally posted by infra172:
Want to know how you can hurt the networks who cancel your shows? DONT BUY THE DVDs! Don't buy the Wonderfalls DVDs when they come out. Download pirated versions.



You don't seem to see the difference between the division of Fox that creates all these great shows, has enthusiasm for them and wants them to be shown, and the television network that airs them only to cancel them prematurely.

The former (along with the actors, writers, directors, producers, etc) gets money from DVD sales.

The latter gets money from advertisers. That's it. Not buying DVD's does nothing except hurt our favorite creators and a studio that IS trying to create quality television.

"FOX! Where the shit hits the fans." - Tim Minear

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 4:23 PM

THRAWN


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
I have been boycotting not only Fox, but their show sponsors as seen in TV Guide and fishwrap ads as well, since they canceled Firefly. I sincerely hope they don't enlist Boddington Pub Ale as a sponsor, 'cause I'd miss it, but...

I don't believe my actions will cause Fox to go broke or shut its doors. That's not what I'm shooting for.

I'll start watching Fox (soft 'u' sound) primetime TV again, the very same day I see an announcement stating their programming team have been FIRED... Sorry for shouting, but those idiots need to be flipping burgers some place. It'd also be nice to get a blurb from Fox stating that they 1.) needed to go in a new direction, with 2.) people who knew something about quality programming, and that they 3.) had placed an strict ban on hiring the board of directors' immediate family members to positions where intelligence was essential.

The person or persons responsible for cancelling Firefly, in particular, have no business being in the field of entertainment. As soon as I hear they are no longer working at Fox, I'll tune in their shows again.

'Til then, not. It's not so much about a desire to hurt Fox as it is not to get screwed by these ignoramuses again. To quote Mr. Scott, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."


Respectfully,


zoid



The eventual goal, as you yourself have said, is to change Fox. We want to get the people that don't understand quirky and interesting shows to either die, get fired, or change their minds. Right?

Now. How are we going to do this? If none of us watches any shows on that network at all, the only people that DO watch the shows on that network are the people that watch reality shows. The consequences are obvious - these people are going to look at the ratings and think, "well, no one's watching (insert good TV show here), so let's cancel it. Those shows never succeed." And they'll be right.

If you want to change that, if you want to make Fox air good shows, you have to show them that people watch good shows. And how are you going to do that if you don't ever watch anything? Principle is all well and good, but in this case, following the principle is defeating your own purpose.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 4:28 PM

CALHOUN


The Fox people regularly ring me up and tell me about a new deal or reduced subscription rate for their cable network and why I should have my cable reconnected.. My first question to them is always "has Firefly been resurrected yet?"...

I dont care what anyone says! I feel better for it!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 4:31 PM

THRAWN


Quote:

Originally posted by Calhoun:
The Fox people regularly ring me up and tell me about a new deal or reduced subscription rate for their cable network and why I should have my cable reconnected.. My first question to them is always "has Firefly been resurrected yet?"...

I dont care what anyone says! I feel better for it!



How great for you.

Thank you for helping to kill Wonderfalls.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 4:51 PM

MAUGWAI


If we all refuse to watch crap like "The Swan" because that's what Fox is airing in place of good shows like "Firefly" and "Wonderfalls", maybe Fox will realize that we won't watch crap. Maybe they will bring back shows with plots. So let's boycott the crap and watch the good stuff. Since Fox is seriously lacking in good stuff, let's all watch other networks or DVDs of our favorite shows instead. And occasionally "24". Or
"The Simpsons".


"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 5:06 PM

DECKROID


==============================
AURAPTOR
Why does Fox put forth such effort to go w/ a show like Firefly, John Doe, Wonderfalls ,etc.. and not promote it? It's such a waste of talent to put forth these great shows and then just cancel them after as little as 4 weeks.
====================================


Two words, my friend, two very short words:

Tax Writeoff.


I call her "Vera"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 5:32 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Perhaps if people in our demographic don't watch Fox, then the shows we like can be picked up by a network who will support their product.

Fox can die alongside reality TV... Hopefully Soon

" Thats not fair !!!!
I didn't even have a soul when I did that!"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 6:02 PM

ZOID


Thrawn wrote:

Quote:

The eventual goal, as you yourself have said, is to change Fox. We want to get the people that don't understand quirky and interesting shows to either die, get fired, or change their minds. Right?

Now. How are we going to do this? If none of us watches any shows on that network at all, the only people that DO watch the shows on that network are the people that watch reality shows. The consequences are obvious - these people are going to look at the ratings and think, "well, no one's watching (insert good TV show here), so let's cancel it. Those shows never succeed." And they'll be right.

If you want to change that, if you want to make Fox air good shows, you have to show them that people watch good shows. And how are you going to do that if you don't ever watch anything? Principle is all well and good, but in this case, following the principle is defeating your own purpose.



Okay, first off, I never said I wanted to change Fox. I said I wanted their TV programmers fired. While it may seem these two statements are the same, they are not. Yours is about Fox TV network. Mine is about some specific -- if anonymous -- morons who couldn't pour piss out of a boot with directions on the heel.

I'll try an analogy.

I've read biographies of Bill Gates. Now, I figure I'm in an extreme minority and probably flame-baiting here, but I like the guy. Or at least I'm withholding judgement to see if he carries through on his stated intention of giving away all his money to charities, with the exception of $50 million for each of his children.

On the other hand, Microsoft -- as an entity in its own right -- is an evil bitch. The company has virtually cornered the market and strangled anyone who attempted to compete with it.

Some say, "Microsoft is Bill is Microsoft," but I disagree. Companies become personalities themselves, and the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. For the sake of argument, whether you agree or not just play along for a sec... The equation goes like this: Bill's okay, the programmers are okay, the marketing people are okay, and the company's lawyers are...
well, there's no such thing as a lawyer with a soul, but we're playing along, right?

Put all these 'okay' people together and form a company and place that company in a competitive environment... What happens? The company -- like any organism -- evolves in accordance with Darwinism. Darwin was wrong, but we'll take it as read, still playing along.

In Microsoft's case, evolution yielded a predator. But it really had very little to do with the human element involved. Everybody just did their jobs, but something happened along the way and the thing grew fangs and venom pits.

Fox is not bad. It's just Fox, and I don't hate it for that. But it's got a cancer in its body: the aforementioned TV programmers responsible for cancelling Firefly. I don't want to change Fox, any more than I want to change my GSD into a poodle. But if my Shepherd gets a bad tooth, I have it pulled before it can infect the neighboring teeth, sicken and maybe even kill my dog.

Another analogy: If I go to a fast food restaurant and order a burger, and they give me one made from feces, is it your argument that I should continue buying feces burgers in the hopes that one day they'll start using dead cow, like any responsible purveyor of burgers would do from the outset?

Well, I ain't doin' it. I want dead cow burgers. Fox ain't got 'em, and what they do have is manure, so I'm going elsewhere and get the burgers I like.

But, to each his own; by all means, enjoy your shit sandwiches!


To Maugwai:

Since you mentioned "The Swan", I'd just like to say how horrified I was the very first time I saw the promo for that turd. How far have we fallen as a culture and a society that cutting up women and making them eye candy is entertainment?

How sad that these women don't see themselves as worthy people because of whatever physical 'imperfections' they may have. How sad that our culture has become so narcissistic and vain that external appearance is the only measure of a person's value!?!

My skin crawls just thinking of this. Fire Fox's programming brain trust, NOW! Next they'll be after your children to warp their value systems, too.

Wait, they've already done that: Junior American Idol.


Respectfully,

zoid


_________________________________________________

"River didn't fix faith. Faith fixed River."

- Senator Richard 'Book' Wilkins, Independent Congress
author of A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 6:11 PM

CARDIE


First question for all: Do you have a Nielsen box or are you able to influence someone who does? If not, whatever you do in regard to the FOX television network will not affect them one darn bit. By all means do what your principles tell you to do, but don't think you are having any effect.

Secondly, people ought to get a basic grasp of how the economics of television work. FOX the network buys shows for a certain fee, and they make money on them by selling advertising. The advertising rates are based on ratings. Reality shows are cheap to make and cheap to license. It's basic economics that a more expensive, scripted show will have to demonstrate that it can draw ratings fairly soon, or it will be dropped because it's a money loser.

FOX launched one of the longest-running SF shows of all time out of a Friday night slot: The X-Files. It seems to me that they keep thinking they can do it again. But they were a new and hungry network then and gave it time to build a cult following. Now that they are one of the big four, they have less patience and get nervous if something doesn't look like it's catching on right away. This may in the long run be a bad business practice, and FOX executives do seem to commission shows and then lack conviction in them more than the more established networks, but it is not some sort of evil conspiracy or vendetta. All these folks care about is making money, and the only way they can make money is to sell commercials at a good rate prompted by good ratings.

As was said above, the network makes nothing off of DVD sales, and downloading episodes also makes their audience look smaller than it is (assuming some Nielsen families download in the same proportion that fans do.) So, for heaven's sake, if you want the DVDs of a show FOX cancelled, go buy them. You aren't benefiting FOX in any way.

Also note that Joan of Arcadia has been a huge hit at 8 pm on Friday, and that CSI started out on Friday. It can be done if you can appeal to both mainstream and genre fans.

Cardie

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 6:22 PM

CALHOUN


Anyone else here think that this Thrawn character sounds like a Fox exec? He is beating his drum for Fox loud enuff.. or maybe just beating something else.

I loved you analogies Zoid :)


STUFF FOX!!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 6:24 PM

THRAWN


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:

Okay, first off, I never said I wanted to change Fox. I said I wanted their TV programmers fired. While it may seem these two statements are the same, they are not. Yours is about Fox TV network. Mine is about some specific -- if anonymous -- morons who couldn't pour piss out of a boot with directions on the heel.

I'll try an analogy.

I've read biographies of Bill Gates. Now, I figure I'm in an extreme minority and probably flame-baiting here, but I like the guy. Or at least I'm withholding judgement to see if he carries through on his stated intention of giving away all his money to charities, with the exception of $50 million for each of his children.

On the other hand, Microsoft -- as an entity in its own right -- is an evil bitch. The company has virtually cornered the market and strangled anyone who attempted to compete with it.

Some say, "Microsoft is Bill is Microsoft," but I disagree. Companies become personalities themselves, and the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. For the sake of argument, whether you agree or not just play along for a sec... The equation goes like this: Bill's okay, the programmers are okay, the marketing people are okay, and the company's lawyers are...
well, there's no such thing as a lawyer with a soul, but we're playing along, right?

Put all these 'okay' people together and form a company and place that company in a competitive environment... What happens? The company -- like any organism -- evolves in accordance with Darwinism. Darwin was wrong, but we'll take it as read, still playing along.

In Microsoft's case, evolution yielded a predator. But it really had very little to do with the human element involved. Everybody just did their jobs, but something happened along the way and the thing grew fangs and venom pits.

Fox is not bad. It's just Fox, and I don't hate it for that. But it's got a cancer in its body: the aforementioned TV programmers responsible for cancelling Firefly. I don't want to change Fox, any more than I want to change my GSD into a poodle. But if my Shepherd gets a bad tooth, I have it pulled before it can infect the neighboring teeth, sicken and maybe even kill my dog.

Another analogy: If I go to a fast food restaurant and order a burger, and they give me one made from feces, is it your argument that I should continue buying feces burgers in the hopes that one day they'll start using dead cow, like any responsible purveyor of burgers would do from the outset?

Well, I ain't doin' it. I want dead cow burgers. Fox ain't got 'em, and what they do have is manure, so I'm going elsewhere and get the burgers I like.

But, to each his own; by all means, enjoy your shit sandwiches!


Respectfully,

zoid



First of all, I actually agree about Bill Gates/Microsoft. The situation there, though, is the exact reverse of what you're saying about Fox - I understand what point you were making, but I don't see how there's a point there besides background.

Then, skipping a bit, regarding the burger thing - say you had a choice of four restaurants (simplified because cable networks exist, but you get the idea). Each restaurant had bunch of dishes. You ate at all four every once in a while. One of them kept introducing really excellent dishes, then taking them off the menu because they didn't sell well. You'd still go eat them, right? If only for variety's sake. That's the better analogy. I'm not saying I watch what Fox usually airs; I don't, it's definitely shit-burgers. Every so often, they have a good one, and I watch it, and that's what I'm saying should be done.

Now, for the bit of your argument that was actually an argument. I understand what you mean about the particular Fox execs. I understand that you like the rest of the company, and it's just a few people that are bad. I don't understand how it makes my point invalid. They have jobs, they do jobs, and, so far, the ratings have pretty much proven to the rest of the network that they do those jobs well. The only way they're going to get fired, shot, whatever, is if either they change their minds or the rest of the company realizes what liabilities they are. And I cannot for the life of me see how not watching good shows is going to do a damn bit of good about that.

If you at least look for quality programming on Fox, then when you find one, you spread the word, you have a chance of it staying around. Mild, improbable, sure, but a chance. If you just boycott the network, you have no chance of ever changing anything, and the assholes you hate are keeping their jobs that much easier.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 6:28 PM

THRAWN


Quote:

Originally posted by Calhoun:
Anyone else here think that this Thrawn character sounds like a Fox exec? He is beating his drum for Fox loud enuff.. or maybe just beating something else.

I loved you analogies Zoid :)


STUFF FOX!!



Heh. I'm 19 and go to Rice University. I work for no one having anything to do with TV. And you'll notice I'm not promoting what Fox did at all; I'm just saying that they're stupid rather than evil, and the only way that's gonna change is if we change it. You can't ignore them and expect them to change on their own.

Kindly refrain from insulting me when all I've done is post an opinion as intelligently as I'm able. I will, at least, grant you that much politeness.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 6:31 PM

MCNALLY


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
To Maugwai:

Since you mentioned "The Swan", I'd just like to say how horrified I was the very first time I saw the promo for that turd. How far have we fallen as a culture and a society that cutting up women and making them eye candy is entertainment?

...

My skin crawls just thinking of this.

...



I actually felt physically ill when I saw the promo. The phrase "Beginning of the end" came to mind, until I remembered it began a long time ago and no end is in sight. You know those Star Trek episodes where the existence of humanity was put on trial? We already lost.


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 6:34 PM

THRAWN


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Perhaps if people in our demographic don't watch Fox, then the shows we like can be picked up by a network who will support their product.

Fox can die alongside reality TV... Hopefully Soon

" Thats not fair !!!!
I didn't even have a soul when I did that!"



That's possible but it seems to me unlikely...I mean, Tim and co. went pitching Wonderfalls to a bunch of places, and Fox is the only place that went for it. If Fox hadn't, no one would have, and that isn't much of an alternative.

I mean, I'd rather have Fox be included in the list of networks that put on good shows, wouldn't you? More places for good shows to go. If that can't happen, then Fox not buying them in the first place might be an alternative, but when Fox buys a good show I still think it's worth at least trying to support it rather than dismissing it out of hand because it happens to be on Fox, don't you?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 6:50 PM

CALHOUN


I say STUFF FOX!

BOYCOTT the BASTICHES!






Jayne - "I like Smackin'em"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 6:55 PM

SERGEANTX


Is Fox a television network or something?

SergeantX

"..and here's to all the dreamers, may our open hearts find rest." -- Nanci Griffith

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 7:08 PM

ZOID


Cardie,

You said:
Quote:

"...whatever you do in regard to the FOX television network will not affect them one darn bit. By all means do what your principles tell you to do, but don't think you are having any effect."


Principles are the only thing that matters. I let the other guy worry about "the effect".

Then you said:
Quote:

"Secondly, people ought to get a basic grasp of how the economics of television work."


Economics in television works the same as it does in any other business proposition. Build a better product, and people will buy it. Manufacture crap and they'll do business someplace else. With the exception of "American Idol", which they transplanted along with Simon from the UK (i.e., not by any means an original creation) and Fox Sports -- stole baseball from NBC and the entire NFL Today cast and crew from CBS -- Fox can't see daylight they're so deep in the ratings hole from the Big 3. That's economic reality.

So they get some truly original programming -- something that could put them on the map -- and what do they do with it? What they always do: mismanage it to death.

Next you said:
Quote:

"FOX launched one of the longest-running SF shows of all time out of a Friday night slot: The X-Files."


Actually, Fox also initially cancelled "X-Files". Fan outrage and letter-writing was the only thing that brought it back from the dead.

You wrote:
Quote:

"All these folks care about is making money, and the only way they can make money is to sell commercials at a good rate prompted by good ratings."


True. But 'Fox the Parent' also breaks out its ratings. They know how much the Sports Division brings in and charge accordingly. They know how much News brings in and charge accordingly.

If their Primetime is in the toilet, except for the unoriginal "Idol", they'll get around to lopping heads in that division.

Thanks for playing...


As I said originally:
Boycott Fox primetime and their primetime sponsors. If you don't buy the sponsors' products, the sponsors get the picture that Fox Primetime is a bad advertising buy and spend their money elsewhere (see response to "[You] people ought to get a basic grasp of economics", above). You don't need a Nielsen box.

Regardless what some of the apologists may say, you are the customer, you can demand more, and you can and will have an effect if you are united and resolute.


Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
My dream conversation with the Fox programmer who pulled the plug on Firefly:

Fox Moron: "Would you like to supersize that order, sir?"

Me: "No thanks."

Fox Moron: "$4.53 at the first window. Please pull up."

Ahhhh!

[zoid]

_________________________________________________

"River didn't fix faith. Faith fixed River."

- Senator Richard 'Book' Wilkins, Independent Congress
author of A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 7:30 PM

THRAWN


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
Economics in television works the same as it does in any other business proposition. Build a better product, and people will buy it. Manufacture crap and they'll do business someplace else. With the exception of "American Idol", which they transplanted along with Simon from the UK (i.e., not by any means an original creation) and Fox Sports -- stole baseball from NBC and the entire NFL Today cast and crew from CBS -- Fox can't see daylight they're so deep in the ratings hole from the Big 3. That's economic reality.

So they get some truly original programming -- something that could put them on the map -- and what do they do with it? What they always do: mismanage it to death.

Actually, Fox also initially cancelled "X-Files". Fan outrage and letter-writing was the only thing that brought it back from the dead.



Right. The primetime managers of Fox TV are dumb. You can stop making this point. We all agree.

Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
True. But 'Fox the Parent' also breaks out its ratings. They know how much the Sports Division brings in and charge accordingly. They know how much News brings in and charge accordingly.

If their Primetime is in the toilet, except for the unoriginal "Idol", they'll get around to lopping heads in that division.

Thanks for playing...

As I said originally:
Boycott Fox primetime and their primetime sponsors. If you don't buy the sponsors' products, the sponsors get the picture that Fox Primetime is a bad advertising buy and spend their money elsewhere (see response to "[You] people ought to get a basic grasp of economics", above). You don't need a Nielsen box.

Regardless what some of the apologists may say, you are the customer, you can demand more, and you can and will have an effect if you are united and resolute.


Respectfully,

zoid



What really strikes me is how much we agree. We both think that the problem is a few people, we both think that they need to be fired and the rest will follow, and we both want to effect that change. You keep making those arguments, and I actually agree with them. Let's move on.

Here's the disagreement - you think that boycotting the whole network will do it; I think that watching the good shows will help them get adopted. (Let us leave the argument about advertisers for a moment.) I ask you, what do you think will have a better effect, of the following two options.

1) We don't watch Fox at all. The only Fox shows that ever get reasonably high ratings are reality TV shows.

2) We only watch the good shows on Fox (and also buy the DVDs of the shows that are cancelled, etc), and don't watch the reality TV shows.

Think for a second. You run a network. Which one of those is going to make you want to make LESS reality TV and MORE good TV? I'm thinking the one where the good TV is actually watched/bought. This, and only this, is my argument.

Just to touch on a couple of your other points, though - boycotting the advertising companies will do no good. There's no way for them to connect lower sales of their product with them advertising on Fox even if the people boycotting manage to noticably lower their sales, which is doubtful on the face of it. Also, principle is not the only thing that matters. You do the things that make what you want to happen happen. And what you're doing is useless...you may feel morally superior, but you're making no difference at all. Wouldn't you rather cause them to fix the problem, rather than just feeling good about yourself for not letting it get to you?

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 8:01 PM

MAKEROFPATHS


Quote:

Originally posted by Thrawn:

. . . (much deleted) . . .

Also, principle is not the only thing that matters. You do the things that make what you want to happen happen. And what you're doing is useless...you may feel morally superior, but you're making no difference at all. Wouldn't you rather cause them to fix the problem, rather than just feeling good about yourself for not letting it get to you?



I would aree with the principled stand, but I also believe that you have to act to prove your principles. Typically, these principled actions might include boycotting the broadcaster and the products of advertisers on the broadcaster, which typically leads to discussions with friends and acquaintances such that the ripple of your activities flows out and joins the activities of other participants. Word of mouth spreads and maybe a real impact is registered, whether through ratings or advertiser interest/disinterest. Yes, I believe my single, personal vote has an impact.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 8:09 PM

ZOID


Thrawn, hope you're still reading:

Let me say I'm a native Houstonian -- though I schooled crosstown (Eat 'em up, eat 'em up...) -- and that it's good to have bright young people participating in the discussion. You've got to be something of a 'River' to attend Rice. Congrats and say 'hi' to the Mob for me...

Now, to the meat:

You wrote:
Quote:

First of all, I actually agree about Bill Gates/Microsoft. The situation there, though, is the exact reverse of what you're saying about Fox - I understand what point you were making, but I don't see how there's a point there besides background.


Background on the 'secret life of corporations' was the point. As I said, there's nothing (particularly) wrong with Fox as an entity. But that dog won't hunt, cuz it's got a tumor in the Primetime Division. Read on...

You wrote:
Quote:

Then, skipping a bit, regarding the burger thing - say you had a choice of four restaurants (simplified because cable networks exist, but you get the idea). Each restaurant had bunch of dishes. You ate at all four every once in a while. One of them kept introducing really excellent dishes, then taking them off the menu because they didn't sell well. You'd still go eat them, right? If only for variety's sake. That's the better analogy...


Very good; but incomplete and hence, fallacious. A more appropriate revision of your analogy is that this hypothetical restaurant brings the "really excellent dish", lets you take four bites from it, then removes the plate before you can get a fifth episode ...er, forkful, and replaces it with aforementioned feces burger, which are in fact its standard fare. I -- and my sympathizers here -- are tired of this particular restaurant not letting us finish our meals and forcing ordure down our throats. What you're defending is not even a satisfying portion. It leaves one feeling distinctly unfulfilled, poisoned and betrayed.

Quote:

(Snipped) ...They have jobs, they do jobs, and, so far, the ratings have pretty much proven to the rest of the network that they do those jobs well.


This statement is a problem. They do indeed have jobs, but I disagree that they're doing them competently or responsibly with regards to their consumers -- the viewers, not the advertisers. Viewers (or 'eyeballs') are what Fox sells to advertisers. If they can't produce them, or chase them off through bad faith practice, then they cannot succeed in fulfilling their obligations to those advertisers. Therefore, Fox's first loyalty must be to the consumers of their programming. Otherwise, they have no product (us) to sell (to Madison Avenue types). As for your mention of ratings, please see also my response to Cardie, above.

Study hard.


Respectfully,

zoid


_________________________________________________

"River didn't fix faith. Faith fixed River."

- Senator Richard 'Book' Wilkins, Independent Congress
author of A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 8:51 PM

THRAWN


Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
Thrawn, hope you're still reading:

Let me say I'm a native Houstonian -- though I schooled crosstown (Eat 'em up, eat 'em up...) -- and that it's good to have bright young people participating in the discussion. You've got to be something of a 'River' to attend Rice. Congrats and say 'hi' to the Mob for me...



My roommate's in the MOB; request accomplished.

Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
Now, to the meat:

You wrote:
Quote:

Then, skipping a bit, regarding the burger thing - say you had a choice of four restaurants (simplified because cable networks exist, but you get the idea). Each restaurant had bunch of dishes. You ate at all four every once in a while. One of them kept introducing really excellent dishes, then taking them off the menu because they didn't sell well. You'd still go eat them, right? If only for variety's sake. That's the better analogy...


Very good; but incomplete and hence, fallacious. A more appropriate revision of your analogy is that this hypothetical restaurant brings the "really excellent dish", lets you take four bites from it, then removes the plate before you can get a fifth episode ...er, forkful, and replaces it with aforementioned feces burger, which are in fact its standard fare. I -- and my sympathizers here -- are tired of this particular restaurant not letting us finish our meals and forcing ordure down our throats. What you're defending is not even a satisfying portion. It leaves one feeling distinctly unfulfilled, poisoned and betrayed.



Fair enough.

Quote:

Originally posted by zoid:
Quote:

(Snipped) ...They have jobs, they do jobs, and, so far, the ratings have pretty much proven to the rest of the network that they do those jobs well.


This statement is a problem. They do indeed have jobs, but I disagree that they're doing them competently or responsibly with regards to their consumers -- the viewers, not the advertisers. Viewers (or 'eyeballs') are what Fox sells to advertisers. If they can't produce them, or chase them off through bad faith practice, then they cannot succeed in fulfilling their obligations to those advertisers. Therefore, Fox's first loyalty must be to the consumers of their programming. Otherwise, they have no product (us) to sell (to Madison Avenue types). As for your mention of ratings, please see also my response to Cardie, above.

Study hard.


Respectfully,

zoid



Yes, Fox is quite behind the other three. But the only shows they do have that get good ratings are the reality TV shows, so I can understand the higher-ups saying "good job - you got more good reality TV programming", you know?

I mean, I agree they're doing their jobs poorly, I just realize how it could seem they're doing their jobs well. And I think that that won't change if we don't change it.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 9:11 PM

ZOID


Thrawn, still awake? Ain'tcha got school later today?

Ah, well. One last response to your adamant defense of Fox as purveyors of unfinished symphonies, then I've got to get back to more productive pursuits:

You wrote:
Quote:

Also, principle is not the only thing that matters. You do the things that make what you want to happen happen. And what you're doing is useless...you may feel morally superior, but you're making no difference at all.


(Sighs wearily) As I said in that post, Principle is the only thing that matters. I assure you, I neither consider myself nor feel in any way superior to anyone. I am sufficient for the world and for myself.

If you have not discovered the value of principles for yourself, or have not had them instilled in you by a parent or teacher in a personally meaningful way, then I offer you this insight to consider:
At the end of the day, it is illusion to think you can control any of the circumstances of your life, the events that occur, the tides of fate. I don't know what your worldview is, but when I was young I felt that I could grab the world by the throat and wring from it whatever fortune I chose, and your potential is certainly greater than mine ever was.

But, now I'm older (much) and I realize that Life is more Chaos than Order. The only thing in this world that we have any chance whatsoever of controlling is our own behavior. Frankly, given the amount of weakness and myopia I have observed in myself and my fellow human beings, I'd say one's chances of even that much success are far from likely.

But, if you develop an appreciation for principled, ethical behavior ("Ethics is what you do when no one is looking") at least you can know that you did your best, didn't quit or take the easy way out, used all of your -- undoubtedly estimable -- God-given talent, and never gave up or cheated on yourself, your true nature. When you look back on your day, your year and ultimately your life, whether Fortune makes of you a king or a fool, you will be able to hold your head up, and look folks in the eye. As sure as I'm drawing breath, that's the only thing that matters. Everything else in this world is "shadows and dust" (Oliver Reed), vanity and folly.

I know that sounds like some old fart blowing. And I don't claim any right to preach at you. Take it as you will; but one day in your future, I promise you will experience a crisis -- everyone does. When you do, maybe you'll recall these words and gain an appreciation for Principle has to offer.

Like our hero, Mal -- a man of honor -- would say, "Just keep flying".


Respectfully,

zoid


_________________________________________________

"River didn't fix faith. Faith fixed River."

- Senator Richard 'Book' Wilkins, Independent Congress
author of A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 9:57 PM

TRITON


ok, for those asking "who has a neilson box?" or "who has influence over someone who does?" how many people have heard of Tivo or even have Tivo? Those people who have Tivo...hey guess what you have a Neilson box. Tivo tracks what shows are recorded, what shows have season passes and what shows are wishlisted, anonymously of course, to this day firefly stands as one of the most requested season pass shows of 2002. currently the "Top 10 List" is published to the networks for free, also apperently in USA Today, i havent looked for it yet. My point you ask? Buy a Tivo, Tivo good shows, dont Tivo anything on Fox, see what happens?, and if nothing comes of it, at least you still have Tivo

P.S. Tax Write Off is three words

-Triton

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 4, 2004 10:30 PM

SEVENPERCENT


Well, since I'm one of the "boycott Fox" posters, and I've been following this thread, I figured it was finally time to weigh in-

Will my boycott of Fox or their advertisers do anybody any good? Nope, but you make the mistake of believing that I'm kidding myself that it will- What I'm doing is venting, which is what many of my fellow Browncoats (and Wonder-kids?) are doing as well- When you get a network that counts its viewership in the millions, a few thousand complaints and boycotts are nothing, since you arent going to stop the average guy from watching anyway- It's the same problem modern unions face with outsourcing and sweatshop labor; 10,000 people boycott Nike, but 40 million buy the shoes, what does Nike give a shit about the 10k? (Ans: nothing) -
But what our venting does is it gives people like Joss and Tim faith- Faith that their dreams are being heard, and that someone out there thinks what they produce is meaningful, so that maybe they will produce more of it and something will stick- I tell you a Fox boycott, DVD sales, and continued venting (that Joss heard, even if Fox didnt) turned our beloved FF into a movie- Without venting and all the rest, Joss would have given up-
And why not boycott Fox? You say that we dont give good shows a chance because we miss them- Well, let me ask you a real life-metaphor type question- When was the last time you sat down with someone you were diametrically opposed to and let them ramble on until they gave you a nugget of wisdom? My bet is you havent, just like none of the rest of the human race would- Why? The reward just isnt worth the hassle- I proved this with WF; I gave the enemy a chance to redeem itself, came back to the network, and watched them do it again- And, when it all comes down to it, whether your principles make a difference or not, in the end your principles are what define you as a person- How does the exact phrase go (I forget), morality or values are what you are when no one is looking (which I'm sure I mangled, but you get my drift) -

So, I'll continue my boycott- I'll vent- And when Joss and Tim tell me it's time, I'll return- Because I believe in what they do, and whether or not that matters to Fox is inconsequential, because it matters to me-


------------------------------------------
He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 5, 2004 2:19 AM

OUTLANDER


Please Don't boycott the Wonderfalls DVDs. Think what would have happened if people had boycotted the Firefly DVDs. I'm guessing we wouldn't have a Firefly movie in production. If Wonderfalls is released on DVD and sales a very good maybe another network will pick it up for a second season and at very least it will give exposure to the people that made such a great show. Please think before you act.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 5, 2004 5:21 AM

THATWEIRDGIRL




Just to touch on a couple of your other points, though - boycotting the advertising companies will do no good. There's no way for them to connect lower sales of their product with them advertising on Fox even if the people boycotting manage to noticably lower their sales, which is doubtful on the face of it. Also, principle is not the only thing that matters. You do the things that make what you want to happen happen. And what you're doing is useless...you may feel morally superior, but you're making no difference at all. Wouldn't you rather cause them to fix the problem, rather than just feeling good about yourself for not letting it get to you?


Man, I hope this is not true. "Principle is not the only thing that matters. You do the things that make what you want to happen happen." It is a sad day for humankind if it is.

I boycott when I feel the need to let a company know that I have a problem with them. I also tell them I am boycotting then and why I am boycotting them. I tell my friends and my family and ask for their support. Some agree, some don't. Right now, I could log onto messenger and ask 60 family members( the ones that know what a computer is) to boycott Fox for their horrible programming. I bet all 60 would do it. Okay so now there are 61 people telling Fox and their sponsors that they are boycotting until they do something about the programming. We may only be 61, but they have to wonder if we represent a cross section of people, and we do. We come from all classes, multiple ethnicities, professional and trade, and various locations. Just as the little Nielsen box represents a cross section, a known, verbalized boycott can too.


www.thatweirdgirl.com

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 5, 2004 5:40 AM

ZEKE023


Do you not steal things because you might get caught or because it's the wrong thing to do? Do you not shop at Wal-mart because you want your efforts to drive them out of business, or do you just not want your money to support the company that refuses to give any benifits to its workers and sells clothing made by asian children?

It's not a question of FOX failing due to my decision not to watch it. It's simply a matter of, FOX will never publish anything I want to watch anyway and even if they do, it will be gone within a season. I don't want them getting any populartiy. My part in this effort is to not watch them.

It's "doing the right thing" regardless of outcome. Not that this is as important as not shopping at wal-mart... but doing your own small part always feels good.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 5, 2004 6:21 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:

Originally posted by Thrawn:
So, especially after Wonderfalls, there seems to be a HUGE number of people with the general thought "That's it. I'm done. I'm never watching a single Fox show ever, period."

I ask you - what are you hoping to accomplish? You think you're going to drive Fox out of business? You have no chance. No CHANCE. If everyone that ever watched Firefly or Wonderfalls never watched another Fox show again, we'd still barely make a dent. Fox's general audience is so completely different from those shows that us boycotting them isn't going to accomplish anything useful.



You are right, to a point.

I don't think anyone hopes to drive Fox out of business. The Browncoats here are an intelligent bunch, if not a bit passionate. We all know that unless we have a Nielson box Fox doesn't give a ruttin' hump about us or what we watch.

There is however this little thing called principle. We may not hurt FOx, but if enough band together, their voices may be heard in expressing our outrage at the mishandling of yet another great show.

Of course the Nielson Box works two ways. If we don't have one and watch a show, the networks don't know what we are watching and don't care. If we don't have a box, and don't watch a show, they still don't know or care. So our watching or not watching any given show really doesn't matter one gorram bit.

Quote:

It will, however, accomplish one thing very well - the NEXT time Fox buys a Firefly, or a Wonderfalls, the audience that would watch it, the audience that would keep it on air, will be boycotting the network, so it will fail AGAIN. And the exact same thing will happen. All you're going to accomplish by refusing to watch anything Fox ever produces is help prevent Fox from ever producing anything interesting. Which, it seems to me, is exactly the opposite of what you'd want.


Not really. See, without that much vaunted Nielson box, they don't know what we are or are not watching. They are not trying to reach us, they are trying to reach Nielson families.

Quote:

There is no conspiracy here. The only reason Fox cancels shows is because they tank. If you look at the Wonderfalls ratings, they fell sharply, from an already fairly bad first number. Granted, Fox is worse than most at promoting these shows and placing them in positions where they will be watched, and it's likely that they made a mistake by cancelling it early, but it's not because they're evil malicious conservatives or because they have a death feud against Tim Minear. It's because they don't understand how it takes a long time for cult followings to develop, and aren't willing to grant the time it takes for that to happen.


I agree. Obviously the chimps (read network execs) @ Fox have no clue about sci fi or the fact it takes a while for such things to catch on. Cancelling show after only 4 or 5 episodes is ridiculous. They have already bought the full 13 episodes, why not run them and see if they catch on. Sure, move it around a bit if you have to, but why waste the money you have already invested by cancelling it before it really ever started?

Quote:

If we're ever going to get a show like this to stick around, we're going to have to show them that it's profitable for that to happen. Which means, first and foremost, that we have to actually watch it. Fox may be an unusually pathetic and incompetent network, but that's two good shows in a row they've been interested in and bought, and that failed because not enough people watched them. It's mostly their fault, but it's partially ours, too.


Not entirely true.

If asked what the ratings were for say Firefly, someone will spit some statistic at me garnered from the Nielson people based on how many Nielson homes tuned in to the show. That number in no way reflects how many non-Nielson families watched the show, so how is it an accurate representation of the number of viewers? What are there, like less than 100,000 homes in America w/ a box? That is very small percentage of the millions of homes in America that turn on the tube every night. Just doesn't add up to me.

As for it being our fault, what more can we do than tune in and spread the word. It seems quite a few here did that.

Quote:

Don't boycott Fox, and don't assume that we'll never get one of these to work. All you're doing is causing more harm than good, and reducing the possibilities for more creative shows in the future. By all means, don't watch the bad ones - avoid any and all reality TV like the plague - but if you see one that looks interesting, watch it. And if you like it, get other people to watch it.

You never know what we can do when we try hard enough.



Interesting shows and Fox mix like oil and water. It just doesn't work. Fox mishandles the shows, and does little in the way to advertise the show. Seems to me they don't know how to sell a product unless it is a reality show. Are they truly that incompetent, or do they simply not care?

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 5, 2004 6:34 AM

STARHAND


Quote:

Originally posted by zeke023:
Do you not steal things because you might get caught or because it's the wrong thing to do? Do you not shop at Wal-mart because you want your efforts to drive them out of business, or do you just not want your money to support the company that refuses to give any benifits to its workers and sells clothing made by asian children?

It's not a question of FOX failing due to my decision not to watch it. It's simply a matter of, FOX will never publish anything I want to watch anyway and even if they do, it will be gone within a season. I don't want them getting any populartiy. My part in this effort is to not watch them.

It's "doing the right thing" regardless of outcome. Not that this is as important as not shopping at wal-mart... but doing your own small part always feels good.



I avoid Wal-mart as well. Last night I might have tuned in to Malcolm and Arrested Development but I just couldn't do it. I am soooo disgusted with Fox and then this morning's newspaper has this blurb by their television critic.

"WE'RE NOT SUFFERING ENOUGH?
Make it stop. Please. Fox unveils its latest reality show, The Swan, in which non-babes undergo plastic surgery, as well as life coaching and physical training so they can compete in a beauty pageant that serves as May's finale. Just describing it makes me want to shower. Ick."

People going under the knife for the sake of entertaining the masses. What's next? I can just see the pitchmen in front of the Fox executives, "Convicted criminals fighting to the death with swords and tridents is the next big thing, it was massive in old Rome! It's time has come again, it'll be huge" Panem et circum, we haven't come very far have we? Sorry if I butchered the latin.

“but I’ve been sane awhile now and change is good” …Wash

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 5, 2004 7:03 AM

SPLIBERTARIAN


Personally, I place great importance on acting on principle. I just find it more spiritually fulfilling to act in a positive way, than to dwell on the negative; to be constructive, rather than destructive. So, rather than decry the powers that be at Fox TV, I do what I can to support Firefly. I put my money where my mouth is and purchase the DVDs. I use my mouth too, blabbering on about how much I like the show, hoping to turn others onto it. In the end, I am happier because I am spending my time, money, energy, and enthusiasm on something I love (Firefly), rather than focusing on something that brings me stress and pain (Fox TV). If Fox airs another program I enjoy, I will watch it and support it because it is in line with my principles to support good works. As Zoe said in Heart of Gold,"...I ain't so afraid of losing something that I ain't gonna try to have it."

Tearing down Fox TV, or even the execs. responsible for decisions that do not serve me well will not bring back Firefly, but purchasing the DVDs, spreading the word, and supporting the movie just might. And at the end of the day, I am happy to have had the pleasure and hopeful to have more, rather than bitter and spiteful for having been burned.

In Firefly, Mal has lost everything; as a result, he's not such a happy guy. I just lost a TV show, and I refuse to sacrifice my happiness over that injustice.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 5, 2004 7:19 AM

GNOC


This is an interesting thread. I felt extremely disappointed when Fox cancelled Space Above and Beyond so many years ago. Then they would not sell the rights to sci fi so the rumors went. I was in the boycotting mood. I cannot think of a series I have watched on Fox for a long time.. but it would not matter in the least, like the original post went.

If you want to boycott, do it for your own personal satisfaction: don't do it to stick it to the man. You will be disappointed.

I feel if you boycott the dvd's, you are shooting yourself in the foot. If no one bought the Firefly dvd's, would the movie be a reality? I think that by sending a message to the creator of the series, not the network that had no vision, is more important. It is Joss you are supporting, not fox. He knew it was good, we know it is good.. hence the, what? 35 million for a movie? That is the message to send to fox. Hopefully, the movie will be a hit and then the series might pop up again.. anywhere but Fox, I hope.

Sorry so long..
g

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 5, 2004 8:06 AM

ZOID


I've written a lot on this topic, but maybe left a couple of things unclear. So, briefly (I promise):

1. I boycott only Fox Primetime and Fox Primetime sponsors. Where a sponsor package-buys time on Primetime, Sports and/or News, I don't cut them any slack. I boycott. I have never started a "Boycott Fox" campaign. I do as my conscience guides me, and intend to let others make up their own minds over the issue of the appropriate way to behave as responsible consumers.

2. The only exception to my Primetime boycott has been Wonderfalls, because of loyalty to the artist, Minear. This is complementary with the sentiment of my "Principles" sermon, posted earlier (Loyalty is one of my Principles).

3. I downloaded SVCD versions of all the Firefly eps from the A.B.M.F. newsgroup, most provided by generous Brit fan "Hel", who not only got all the episodes, but in correct order from SciFi UK. I did that because we never got a chance to see them all, never got a chance to see reruns.

4. When the DVD set came out, I purchased it, even though I already had the eps burned to CDR. Why? Because it deserved my support... Because I wanted to show my appreciation to the show's creators and actors. Even though JW said they got no money from the sales, that the show "belonged to Fox", I figure good sales figures would let Mutant Enemy know that the people care about their work, and in doing so, give them the encouragement to carry on. I feel we have succeeded there and I feel good about our accomplishment.

5. Besides that 'good feeling' achieved by encouraging true artists to continue making good art, buying the DVD instead of continuing to watch pirated versions was the right thing to do. See again, "Principles" and item #2, above.

I promised 'brief' and I think that about covers anything I may have left unsaid in previous posts. Thanks for listening.


Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
The only pirated Firefly-related material I still possess and regularly view is the uncut gag reel extra. It's considerably longer and includes video clips of all the office people, gaffers, makeup artists, et al, who made the show what it was. I thought those 'family photos' were a poignant example of how much ME & JW care about their team, the people who ultimately cared enough to make Joss' endeavor a success.

It also made me shed a tear to think that Fox would excise so noble a tribute from the released version... I'm sorry, but that's just plain evil.

zoid

_________________________________________________

"River didn't fix faith. Faith fixed River."

- Senator Richard 'Book' Wilkins, Independent Congress
author of A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 5, 2004 9:06 AM

INFRA172


POLITICAL:

http://tv.zap2it.com/tveditorial/tve_main/1,1002,271|87282|1|,00.html

"Alias" has been a critical favorite since its premiere and has a devoted fan following. However, its ratings have never been more than mediocre, earning it the dubious honor of being a "cachet show" -- one that might not perform well overall, but a good project for a network to be associated with."

I like Alias but this is true. Alias doesn't have great ratings but they keep it on because they like it. Wonderfalls, Firefly, and Angel have been cancelled because a TV exec doesn't like it. Ratings aren't the only factor for these people.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 5, 2004 9:40 AM

THRAWN


Quote:

Originally posted by splibertarian:
Personally, I place great importance on acting on principle. I just find it more spiritually fulfilling to act in a positive way, than to dwell on the negative; to be constructive, rather than destructive. So, rather than decry the powers that be at Fox TV, I do what I can to support Firefly. I put my money where my mouth is and purchase the DVDs. I use my mouth too, blabbering on about how much I like the show, hoping to turn others onto it. In the end, I am happier because I am spending my time, money, energy, and enthusiasm on something I love (Firefly), rather than focusing on something that brings me stress and pain (Fox TV). If Fox airs another program I enjoy, I will watch it and support it because it is in line with my principles to support good works. As Zoe said in Heart of Gold,"...I ain't so afraid of losing something that I ain't gonna try to have it."

Tearing down Fox TV, or even the execs. responsible for decisions that do not serve me well will not bring back Firefly, but purchasing the DVDs, spreading the word, and supporting the movie just might. And at the end of the day, I am happy to have had the pleasure and hopeful to have more, rather than bitter and spiteful for having been burned.

In Firefly, Mal has lost everything; as a result, he's not such a happy guy. I just lost a TV show, and I refuse to sacrifice my happiness over that injustice.



That's exactly what I was trying to say by starting this thread. Thank you.

And, Zoid - once again, I agree with all of your philosophical ramblings, and I've already had quite a few experiences to acquaint me with life's little habit of being random. I just don't see how boycotting Fox on principle counts as a real principle...it seems to me that what you actually want to do is promote good TV, and that, with all the randomness and the unlikeliness for anything we do to have any effect, it still seems like refusing to watch anything on Fox is going to do nothing but be counter-productive.

I didn't mean to get into a philosophical argument about ethics; I'm in complete agreement with just about everything that's been said about principle and doing things because they're right. I bought the Firefly DVDs despite the fact that I had all the episodes pirated, too, because it was the right thing to do. I don't steal, because it's the right thing to do. That's all well and good.

But I can give you reasons why stealing is wrong that make sense, outside of just "I think it's morally right". I feel like any system of morals has to be logically/pragmatically based at some level. And I feel like it's more morally right to try and convince Fox they're wrong, by promoting the hell out of good shows to anyone I can find who'll listen to me and hoping to get the word out, than just ignoring them and refusing to have anything to do with them in the hope that it will eventually get better. I don't think that's ever going to change anything, and I wouldn't feel better about myself for not trying.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 5, 2004 9:47 AM

THRAWN


Quote:

Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
If asked what the ratings were for say Firefly, someone will spit some statistic at me garnered from the Nielson people based on how many Nielson homes tuned in to the show. That number in no way reflects how many non-Nielson families watched the show, so how is it an accurate representation of the number of viewers? What are there, like less than 100,000 homes in America w/ a box? That is very small percentage of the millions of homes in America that turn on the tube every night. Just doesn't add up to me.

As for it being our fault, what more can we do than tune in and spread the word. It seems quite a few here did that.

Quote:

Don't boycott Fox, and don't assume that we'll never get one of these to work. All you're doing is causing more harm than good, and reducing the possibilities for more creative shows in the future. By all means, don't watch the bad ones - avoid any and all reality TV like the plague - but if you see one that looks interesting, watch it. And if you like it, get other people to watch it.

You never know what we can do when we try hard enough.



Interesting shows and Fox mix like oil and water. It just doesn't work. Fox mishandles the shows, and does little in the way to advertise the show. Seems to me they don't know how to sell a product unless it is a reality show. Are they truly that incompetent, or do they simply not care?

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."




I know about the Nielsens boxes, and I realize the logistical problems introduced. That's not what I'm arguing. What I meant was if you don't ever try to find good shows, and thus don't make the effort to get the word out (such as by boycotting Fox), then the problem will never be solved.

And I definitely disagree with the argument that we shouldn't try just because we haven't succeeded lately.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

FFF.NET SOCIAL