GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

One Big Conspiracy?

POSTED BY: INVADERCHAT
UPDATED: Thursday, October 14, 2010 19:57
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Wednesday, October 13, 2010 5:46 PM

INVADERCHAT


Hello everyone.
so everyone knows Firefly is the best show in town right? And everyone also knows that it got a shit deal from Fox who are a bunch of *censored* and they should *censored* themselves.

But I kinda keep having this weird idea in the back of my head, it should be clear before I start this discussion that I don't actually think this is what happened and it's not meant to be a solid theory, just a suggestion.

Okay so, what if Joss is just an even bigger genius that we all thought? What if he PLANNED for Firefly to run for fourteen episodes and be like the underdog of the sci-fi world in an effort to purposely orchestrate the entire Browncoat group?

Like he said about the creation of the characters in the story 'the people history stepped on' they are characters that we like to hear about, the people who lost the war so maybe the whole series was created to be like a show that 'lost the war'?

There's also the fact that Joss said Fox made him write the series in an episodic fashion instead of a continuous story, LIES! He did that himself to show as many different aspects of his world as he could before pretending to be cancelled!

So really, he has thought all of this through, including the BDM to gather a huge support group for the REAL series/Movie that he is going to come out with any time now, using the original series and movie as simple trailers for the mighty...thing, that is going to come!

Go ahead, find a flaw in my logic. Joss has you all fooled.

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Wednesday, October 13, 2010 6:10 PM

BYTEMITE


Possible, in some ways...

The remake of the show V, you might know it, was taken off air for a while the first season because of a storyline about tainted vaccines interfering with ongoing efforts for swine flu vaccinations at the time. This sort of thing isn't necessarily unheard of.

Technically, most of the CIA activity that inspired Joss' take on human brain experimentation (Firefly, Dollhouse) has been declassified in the Family Jewel documents. Joss is allowed to take on the issues because portraying it all as fiction kinda blurs things over in the minds of the public, plus his versions are a little exaggerated in some ways. But if he's not careful, he could rankle them. The idea of the little people rising up against the intelligence community and industrial military complex would probably rankle them.

Joss also claims to be a left-wing Anarchist. So, taking on the government is a story he'd want to tell.

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Wednesday, October 13, 2010 7:15 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Wow, Joss really knows how to think long term. Firefly didn't find it's way to me until a couple of years ago. I have mixed thoughts on it's being canceled and leading to only one movie. While I'd love to see more, I'm also almost glad it ended as relatively happy as it did with my most favorite characters still alive.

I just know if it stayed on the air Joss would have played with our emotions. Awww... isn't that Kaylee so cute and adorable? DEAD! Isn't that Simon so selfless and caring? PLOT TWIST HE IS EVIL! Inara and Mal finally realize what they mean to each other. DEAD! but not both dead, cause one of them must live on to be eternally miserable. Book becomes atheist (screw you Christians!) Jayne becomes a shepard (j/k, Christians are okay too... I guess...)

Of course I'd still watch, cause Joss is awesome. Maybe he was more a genius than I realized. Maybe he stopped it early so it would remain the greatest science fiction series ever with immortally awesome characters, but then he was tempted by the dark side when making serenity and almost lost it all.

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Wednesday, October 13, 2010 7:23 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Inara and Mal finally realize what they mean to each other. DEAD! but not both dead, cause one of them must live on to be eternally miserable.


Ouch. Just... Ouch.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HarsherInHindsight

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Wednesday, October 13, 2010 7:40 PM

INVADERCHAT


Quote:

Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
Maybe he was more a genius than I realized. Maybe he stopped it early so it would remain the greatest science fiction series ever with immortally awesome characters.



That's kinda what I was getting at before going overboard with the whole revival thing, I don't think there would be so much love for Firefly if it went on to a proper length.

I also take a bit of bittersweet pleasure in the fact that it didn't continue on for the things you mentioned above to happen, I'd absolutely love it if it did but right now Firefly is frozen in that awesome stage before shows go down hill.

Obviously I'd watch it no matter what but as you've noted...Joss is mean.

And BYTEMITE, are you suggesting that Firefly was canceled due to a government cover up that Joss was trying to expose through TV?

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 1:30 AM

BRUCEPLUTO


So Joss purposely produced a failed tv show that would lead to a failed movie that would eventually have him be involved in a writers strike ( because shows like Firefly were doing well on the web and were getting nothing for the writers) That would then lead to Dr. Horrible then to Dollhouse then ……..

In a word NOPE!

Joss is in it for the money. He doesn’t care about fans, he doesn’t care about the “art” and doesn’t he have a conspiracy bone in this body…..

He’d just wanting the “green back”…..

My theory…….BP

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 3:15 AM

GWEK


I think the truth of things is really in Joss's writing, which has changed significantly (largely for the worse) since the cancellation of FIREFLY.

The loss of the show caused a wound in him (and in his creative abilities) that time has not yet healed. FIREFLY was his true love, and he lost her (arguably, twice).

That can't be faked.

Now, having said that, I think there IS a kernel of truth to what you're saying. I think that Joss, when he was creating FIREFLY, lived with the constant shadow of awareness that it could end at any time, and that inspired him to be daring and try things that he might not done had he had, for example, a full season commitment from the network. Basically, "This might be my only change, so what do I have to lose?"

I know that as an audience member during the original run of the show, that element was always there. On some level, I think that we KNEW that even though we loved this show immensely, it might not survive for long and that "summer fling" feel served to heighten the intensity of the experience. (Similarly, for those who caught the show on DVD, there's been discussion that the DVD set is--by coincidence, not conspiracy! :)--the exact right length to make it something you can fall in love with. Just enough episodes to get emotionally attached, but not so many episodes that it's daunting to watch).

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 3:36 AM

INVADERCHAT


BRUCEPLUTO, I can see your point of view but it doesn't necessarily preclude my suggestion. I didn't say that he was doing it out of love or for art. Infact the whole thing would basically BE about the money if he had indeed intentionally caused Firefly to fail only to gather fans for his new venture so they'd definitely buy.

Just think how many people would have viewed if episode fifteen came out right after fourteen way back on the original run and then consider how much of an event such a thing would be right now, it'd be worth cashy money.

And GWEK, the little theory I have presented aside, I agree with what you're saying. I believe Joss truly loved Firefly and that he has suffered for it.
Even though I didn't like Buffy or Angel, the writing in it was still very good and conversely I liked Dollhouse but recognized that the writing had gone down hill.

All in all, while I agree with your opinion that out of sheer coincidence the show was the perfect length to gain it so much love I still can see that being part of Joss' evil plan. :P

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 3:49 AM

GWEK


Another thing that you'r theory fails to take into account is that unless Joss Whedon is some sort of actual super-villain, it would be very hard (bordering on impossible) to predict the social and media changes that happened to combine to make FIREFLY a success.

It's very easy NOW to sit back and say "Yes, Joss knew that 14 episodes would make a perfect series length," but in 2002, there was no reason to assume that a failed show would be ported to DVD (most weren't) and that people would have easy access to TV shows through things like netflix (back in 2002, if you were lucky, your local Blockbuster carried SOME TV series--or you could pay 60 bucks on Amazon [as opposed to 80 bucks in the store!]).

If Joss actually did have that kind of foresight, I suspect he'd be using it for something more meaningful... like ACTUAL world domination.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 4:17 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by InvaderChat:

And BYTEMITE, are you suggesting that Firefly was canceled due to a government cover up that Joss was trying to expose through TV?



It's highly unlikely, but considering the subject matter was taboo twenty years ago, it's not impossible.

But again, it's highly, highly unlikely, as most of the ideas that Joss exposes have been around for a while... Most people will weirdness censor stuff that sounds like crazy conspiracy theory (but which actually happened) on their own, and the conspiracy theorist fringe elements who talk as much actual overlooked leaked information as they do bullshit don't exactly do a good job attracting credibility to themselves. No government intervention required.

The show V I mentioned and being temporarily taken off network during the tainted vaccine story line is a far more likely example of government meddling.

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 4:18 AM

INVADERCHAT


Joss could have had inside information as a part of the business. You know it takes media companies AGES to do anything and there were probably talks of this brand new thing where all sorts of tv shows would be readily available for purchase, a light bulb went on in Joss' devious mind and Firefly was born.

And who's to say Joss' next television series, watched by millions after the engineered failure and massive fanbase of Firefly, will not be imbedded with some mind control code that will cause entire populations to kill world leaders and praise Joss as their new supreme ruler?


EDIT* Yeah BYTEMITE, I seriously doubt that it would have been taken seriously enough for the government to bother trying to shut him up, like you said I guess people would just censor anything like that for themselves.

What makes you think that V wasn't just taken off of the air to avoid the subject and not cause problems? I remember one chinese movie (I CAN NOT remember the name) back when those earthquakes happened was held back like eight months just to prevent causing negative impact.

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 4:20 AM

JONGSSTRAW


The network suits killed Firefly despite Joss and Tim's every concession to their whims. Joss produced an amazing Pilot that the network rejected out of hand because they were too lazy and too stupid to grasp it. Then the execs f**ked with Firely every way they could by preempting episodes at every opportunity. For some reason Firefly was preordained to fail for them, and I'm sure they were quite pleased when it did.





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Thursday, October 14, 2010 4:24 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by BrucePluto:
So Joss purposely produced a failed tv show that would lead to a failed movie that would eventually have him be involved in a writers strike ( because shows like Firefly were doing well on the web and were getting nothing for the writers) That would then lead to Dr. Horrible then to Dollhouse then ……..




Hey, Dr. Horrible was good, I'd even say it was almost as good as Firefly. The Dr. Horrible verse has as much potential for awesome as the Firefly verse (Mad Scientists! Supervillians versus Superheroes forming unions to manage their conflicts!)

It just didn't have as many characters or enough time to show off the verse and delve into the deliciously complicated storylines we all crave. I watch Firefly more than Doctor Horrible because I was able to get in deeper, but that doesn't mean potential isn't here.

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 4:30 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by InvaderChat:
What makes you think that V wasn't just taken off of the air to avoid the subject and not cause problems? I remember one chinese movie (I CAN NOT remember the name) back when those earthquakes happened was held back like eight months just to prevent causing negative impact.



It probably was. That's my point. But the reason it was taken off air for a while was because someone in the CDC saw the storyline, realized it could scare people away from getting flu vaccines, and asked the network to kibosh it at least until peak season was over.

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 4:31 AM

INVADERCHAT


Coding, Error...

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 4:33 AM

INVADERCHAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
The network suits killed Firefly despite Joss and Tim's every concession to their whims. Joss produced an amazing Pilot that the network rejected out of hand because they were too lazy and too stupid to grasp it. Then the execs f**ked with Firely every way they could by preempting episodes at every opportunity. For some reason Firefly was preordained to fail for them, and I'm sure they were quite pleased when it did.




That's actually another thing that I've been thinking of after listening to the commentary tracks again and reading some old interviews. Joss especially did NOT concede whenever given the tiniest opportunity not to. Sure the pilot was rewritten because it wouldn't have aired but Joss also shot in widescreen when told NOT to shoot in widescreen and not only that but he made the shots near impossible to reverse by standing actors at opposite ends of the shot and stuff like that.

Fox network automatically cuts to commercial whenever a black screen appears, blank screens aren't allowed so Joss just fades to...dark grey?
He left in stuff he was told to cut as well I think, the point is, while his rebellion was one of the things that allowed Firefly to be so great it was also probably one more reason for Fox to say 'screw you Joss, your show is canceled'.


Dr. Horrible was really amazing in my opinion, I was expecting to come away laughing my arse off but instead I was so immersed in the actual story of this ridiculous musical... and the ending...whoa.

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 4:37 AM

INVADERCHAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
It probably was. That's my point. But the reason it was taken off air for a while was because someone in the CDC saw the storyline, realized it could scare people away from getting flu vaccines, and asked the network to kibosh it at least until peak season was over.



My bad, I meant by the network, not the government.

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 4:47 AM

GWEK


Quote:

Originally posted by InvaderChat:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
The network suits killed Firefly despite Joss and Tim's every concession to their whims. Joss produced an amazing Pilot that the network rejected out of hand because they were too lazy and too stupid to grasp it. Then the execs f**ked with Firely every way they could by preempting episodes at every opportunity. For some reason Firefly was preordained to fail for them, and I'm sure they were quite pleased when it did.




That's actually another thing that I've been thinking of after listening to the commentary tracks again and reading some old interviews. Joss especially did NOT concede whenever given the tiniest opportunity not to. Sure the pilot was rewritten because it wouldn't have aired but Joss also shot in widescreen when told NOT to shoot in widescreen and not only that but he made the shots near impossible to reverse by standing actors at opposite ends of the shot and stuff like that.

Fox network automatically cuts to commercial whenever a black screen appears, blank screens aren't allowed so Joss just fades to...dark grey?
He left in stuff he was told to cut as well I think, the point is, while his rebellion was one of the things that allowed Firefly to be so great it was also probably one more reason for Fox to say 'screw you Joss, your show is canceled'.


Dr. Horrible was really amazing in my opinion, I was expecting to come away laughing my arse off but instead I was so immersed in the actual story of this ridiculous musical... and the ending...whoa.



I wish I could find the quote (which I think is in one of the FINDING SERENITY books) where Joss talks about meeting with the FOX execs in 2001/2002. The conversation, by his own admission, goes something like this:

FOX: Mister Whedon, do you have any ideas for a show that's uplifting, patriotic, and straightforward?
WHEDON: I have this idea for nine people stuck in the darkness of space trying to eke out an existence at the poverty level.
FOX: Great! Let's do it!

Right there, FIREFLY was doomed--and it wasn't just FOX's fault. It takes two parties to not listen to each other. It takes two parties to disrespect each other.

I definitely agree with you a bout Joss's culpability. While the network was definitely to blame for many of the problems of the show (especially marketing and support), Joss himself was rebellious to the point of being subversive. Now, in many cases, he was RIGHT, but being subversive and rebellious (even when you are right) is a good way to get fired.



www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 6:17 PM

BORIS


I think you are wrong about there not being as much love for Serenity if it went on. If TV series are well produced, developed and thought out they can continue for a while and still garner alot of love. E.g. Chuck, Big Bang Theory, The Star Treks, Dr Who, The A-Team, Mash (I still cry everytime I see the series fianle just because of how it made me feel the first time I realised there would be no more new Mash eps), Happy Days, the Rockford Files, The Wire,Homicide: Life on the street (could have gone on forever as far as I'm concerned) X-files, Northern Exposure, The Venture Bros (Okay I know it's not everyone's cup of tea but those of us that do love it are totally dedicated and happy for it to go on and on and on), Black Adder, Mr Bean,. Some shows I think are tired and should end now are Desperate Housewives and How I Met Your Mother .Nothing more to explore in either of those two shows and I'm at the point that I actually don't care who the mother is coz Ted is such a douche.

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 7:57 PM

INVADERCHAT


Yes, Joss was definitely partly to blame for the failure, on the other hand his bullshitting skills did manage to get PART of Firefly aired, if he had just gone along with them we would likely have seen a much more watered down version or simply no Firefly at all.

And on that same point, while people hate Fox for their part in what happened (including me) it still has to be said that THEY were the studio that picked it up and aired it at all, nobody else did.




Boris, I can see where you're coming from but I still disagree. I'm sure that had Firefly been allowed a proper run it would still have gained a big ol' fanbase and have become very popular but somehow I can't see as much actual love happening that way. I mean, people rallied behind this fourteen episode, shown out of order, meddled with show and managed to get a movie, years later people are still walking about in Jayne hats, singing original songs about Firefly and showing regular charity screenings, STILL hoping it will come back. People love the underdogs.

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