GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

RE: Serenity: Float Out (last page)

POSTED BY: ROCKETJOCK
UPDATED: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 16:06
SHORT URL: http://goo.gl/x82ha
VIEWED: 11973
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Saturday, September 18, 2010 9:41 PM

ROCKETJOCK


Ahem:

Please let this be cannon.

Please let this be cannon.

Please let this be cannon.

Please let this be cannon.

Please let this be cannon.

Please let this be cannon.

So mote it be. Amen.

(Note to anyone commenting: Please spoilerize where needed. Thanks.)

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn


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Sunday, September 19, 2010 3:47 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by RocketJock:
Ahem:

Please let this be cannon.

Please let this be cannon....

I don't think that ending means what you think it means, if you know what I mean.

Select to view spoiler:


That mightily pregnant woman might not be Zoe. And Jetwash isn't a funny enough name. The ship should have been called the Washout. Wash would have preferred the total disrespect of it.

You liked that comic? It needed far less Leland, Tagg, & Trey, the three Stooges, and more crew of Serenity. The crew would bring some much needed conflict to the Wash memorial ceremony. It was just too dignified to be entertaining. I had a very specific idea of what kind of conflict:

Wash still has a future baby girl Wash, but the mother is not Zoe. It's some other black woman that Wash was living with, before Zoe. Call her the other-mother. (You notice that other-mother was never greeted by name by the 3 Stooges? If she was Zoe, they would have said 'Hello, Zoe!' ) When Zoe finds out, thanks to telepathic River (see comic below), that other-mother is carrying Wash's baby, then Jayne says something insensitive and Zoe punches him in the mouth. Several times.

For the mechanics of how other-mother got pregnant years after Wash left her: Wash leaves a deposit at the cryogenic sperm bank. Wash then gets into an argument about having children and abandons other-mother. (They're not married. He's not ready because he's immature. You are a dog, Wash!) Now that Wash is never coming back, other-mother goes forward with the pregnancy. She always hoped Wash would return and never knew about Wash marrying Zoe. The 3 Stooges told other-mother that Wash died and that is why she was at the christening of the Washout.

That's the comic everybody would have wanted to read. Even people who never heard of Firefly.

http://ryuuenx.deviantart.com/art/four-weeks-51045376



The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Sunday, September 19, 2010 4:17 AM

GWEK


Joss approved every page personally, so, yes, the last page is canon (as far as canon goes for the Firefly-verse, anyway).

Interestingly, I believe "Floatout" is the ONLY post-SERENITY (BDM) canon that exist.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Sunday, September 19, 2010 4:18 AM

PENNAUSAMIKE


In my mind, until a film or series continuation says different, the crew put Wash in River's cryo-box to take him home for burial. Along the way, they got wind of an experimental medical process to record brain info to time of death and clone replacements for damaged body parts. They sneak Wash in in place of a politico who bumped a deserving recipient (ala PA's governor Casey who bumped everybody down the list for his transplant). Alliance bashing, witty dialog and some gunplay ensues. The Firefly 'verse returns to normal.

THAT'S the only story I want to see.
None of the comics have "done it" for me.
I read "Float Out" when it came, and now it's on the shelf.
I'd call "Better Days" the best of the comics.
The death of Wash is the death of Firefly, for me.
The harder canon works to establish that,
the less grip on me the 'verse has.
(grammar, formed, badly, ouch!)

Mike

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Sunday, September 19, 2010 5:19 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by pennausamike:
In my mind, until a film or series continuation says different, the crew put Wash in River's cryo-box to take him home for burial. Along the way, they got wind of an experimental medical process to record brain info to time of death and clone replacements for damaged body parts. They sneak Wash in in place of a politico who bumped a deserving recipient (ala PA's governor Casey who bumped everybody down the list for his transplant). Alliance bashing, witty dialog and some gunplay ensues. The Firefly 'verse returns to normal.

THAT'S the only story I want to see.

Mike

Oh, please, that's just too bizarre and complicated. I got a weirder way to bring Wash back. The idea is from the Warehouse 13 episode called "Where and When" a couple of weeks back, so it is good. River is clairvoyant, she sees the future, but she didn't see Wash's death coming. If she had, she would have pulled him out of the way. But if she could get a message inside her own head, into the past just before Wash died, she could prevent the death.

In Warehouse 13, they save the past with the H.G. Wells Time machine. H.G. is actually there to operate the machine, which only sends your mind, not your body or brain, to the past. If Joss used a similar idea, he doesn't need H.G. Wells because he's got River Tam and her clairvoyance. I'm sure it fits in perfectly with telepathy. As a true scifi fan, I insist on scientific precision in explaining non-existent phenomenon.
www.filmschoolrejects.com/tv/review-warehouse-13-–-where-and-when.php
www.amazon.com/Where-and-When/dp/B00429H99U/



The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Sunday, September 19, 2010 5:44 AM

BYTEMITE


Wash isn't dead, not really, not with someone like River around who can sense the spectral traces of the departed. :)

There will still be plenty of Wash, and the crew slowly becoming aware of Wash, and even some Zoe/Wash scenes that make a vague shout out to that movie Ghost.

Book will be around too, but he had other lives, so he'll more come and go.

Crystal specifically says River did not save Wash or Book, even though she knew it was going to happen, because her visions of the future are fixed. Unfortunate, but it makes her even more of a tragic Cassandra figure.

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Sunday, September 19, 2010 5:51 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


One can never have too much cannon. Or grenades.

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Sunday, September 19, 2010 6:47 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Crystal specifically says River did not save Wash or Book, even though she knew it was going to happen, because her visions of the future are fixed. Unfortunate, but it makes her even more of a tragic Cassandra figure.

That view is what philosophers call Eternalism - the future and past of the world must be seen as static and fixed... Eternalism fits perfectly with what most physicists who are experts in general relativity believe. (i.e. Paul J. Nahin, Time Machines, Second Edition) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternalism

If we're getting Wash back alive with a Time Machine, there has to be a little slack or looseness in the past. Everything can't be set in concrete like Eternalism demands absolutely.

But Eternalism might not be exactly how Time works. You've heard of parallel universe, multiverse, many-worlds interpretation of quantum physics. It is real theoretical physics that goes to the other extreme, rather than everything fixed in one position forever, everything is in total flux. I think the truth is somewhere between Eternalism and Multiverse, although Eternalism has better mathematicians, while the Multiverse idea has better story tellers (i.e. physicist David Deutsch and his book The Fabric of Reality ). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_universe

And then there are the jokers who write about time travel for TV shows and movies. They digest serious physics ideas into multicolor, smelly piss. Those people will do anything for money and a laugh. I'm talking about Star Trek Enterprise and its temporal cold war hooey. How did that last 98 episodes? There is no justice. Joss and Mal are right -- there is no God but there is Satan.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Sunday, September 19, 2010 8:00 AM

PENNAUSAMIKE


Quote:

Originally posted by two:
Quote:

Originally posted by pennausamike:
In my mind, until a film or series continuation says different, the crew put Wash in River's cryo-box to take him home for burial. Along the way, they got wind of an experimental medical process to record brain info to time of death and clone replacements for damaged body parts. They sneak Wash in in place of a politico who bumped a deserving recipient (ala PA's governor Casey who bumped everybody down the list for his transplant). Alliance bashing, witty dialog and some gunplay ensues. The Firefly 'verse returns to normal.

THAT'S the only story I want to see.

Mike

Oh, please, that's just too bizarre and complicated. I got a weirder way to bring Wash back.
SNIP
But if she could get a message inside her own head, into the past just before Wash died, she could prevent the death.
SNIP
As a true scifi fan, I insist on scientific precision in explaining non-existent phenomenon.



Tracy was smuggling "grown" replacement organs in the Firefly episode, "The Message".
So there is precedence in the 'verse for "seems-dead-can-be revived";
moreso than clairvoyence reaching into the past to change history.
River's clairvoyance seems more to do with sensing future happenings based on the thoughts of people
(bar and Reaver fight, Miranda's history, Petaline's delivery)
and sensings of environment
(the imminent engine fire in "Out of Gas").
I'll buy surgical advances over the leap into time travel in the hard-scrabble world of the 'verse.

Mike

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Sunday, September 19, 2010 8:41 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


I agree with pennausamike that killing Wash was wrong. Maybe Joss preplanned a cool way to bring him back alive in Serenity 2. Joss already used biology like pennausamike's organ transplants, but much more extreme, in the script he wrote for Alien: Resurrection (1997), which resurrected dead Ripley from Alien 3, so that proves pennausamike's point about medical science being a story telling device more useful than super-speculative physics, also known as time travel.

But time travel stories get written about Firefly, even if there's no physical way to do it in this millennium. Or is there? See "Indistinguishable From Magic" www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=5185

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Sunday, September 19, 2010 9:13 AM

ROCKETJOCK


Quote:

Originally posted by two:
Quote:

Originally posted by RocketJock:
Ahem:

Please let this be cannon.

Please let this be cannon....

I don't think that ending means what you think it means, if you know what I mean.

Select to view spoiler:


That mightily pregnant woman might not be Zoe. And Jetwash isn't a funny enough name. The ship should have been called the Washout. Wash would have preferred the total disrespect of it.

You liked that comic? It needed far less Leland, Tagg, & Trey, the three Stooges, and more crew of Serenity. The crew would bring some much needed conflict to the Wash memorial ceremony. It was just too dignified to be entertaining. I had a very specific idea of what kind of conflict:

Wash still has a future baby girl Wash, but the mother is not Zoe. It's some other black woman that Wash was living with, before Zoe. Call her the other-mother. (You notice that other-mother was never greeted by name by the 3 Stooges? If she was Zoe, they would have said 'Hello, Zoe!' ) When Zoe finds out, thanks to telepathic River (see comic below), that other-mother is carrying Wash's baby, then Jayne says something insensitive and Zoe punches him in the mouth. Several times.

For the mechanics of how other-mother got pregnant years after Wash left her: Wash leaves a deposit at the cryogenic sperm bank. Wash then gets into an argument about having children and abandons other-mother. (They're not married. He's not ready because he's immature. You are a dog, Wash!) Now that Wash is never coming back, other-mother goes forward with the pregnancy. She always hoped Wash would return and never knew about Wash marrying Zoe. The 3 Stooges told other-mother that Wash died and that is why she was at the christening of the Washout.

That's the comic everybody would have wanted to read. Even people who never heard of Firefly.

http://ryuuenx.deviantart.com/art/four-weeks-51045376



The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two




Umm . . . Right.

Let me know when Elvis gets here . . .

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

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Sunday, September 19, 2010 9:24 AM

ROCKETJOCK


Quote:

Originally posted by GWEK:
Joss approved every page personally, so, yes, the last page is canon (as far as canon goes for the Firefly-verse, anyway).

Interestingly, I believe "Floatout" is the ONLY post-SERENITY (BDM) canon that exist.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."



Thanks. Nice to know. I think you're right about this being the first bit of fresh news from the 'Verse since the BDM,

Select to view spoiler:


and no more than a few months after at that . . .



I've been hoping for this particular development since Serenity's credits rolled for the first time, and I wasn't alone in the wish. Nice to have fannish daydreams verified.

Heh. Wouldn't it be great if

Select to view spoiler:


Kaylee was preggers by Simon at the same time?

Love to see the look on Mal's face . . .

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

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Sunday, September 19, 2010 9:34 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by RocketJock:
Umm . . . Right.

Let me know when Elvis gets here . . .

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

I shouldn't be ugly about Patric Reynolds' ability to draw the big damn heroes, but Wash didn't look like Wash and ...

Select to view spoiler:


..."Zoe" did NOT look like Zoë Washburne. "Zoe" looked like Oprah in 1990 after her extreme dieting. That's enough reason for me, along with the fact nobody said her name, to think it wasn't Zoë Washburne. And why would only "Zoe" come to the christening of the Washout? Where is everybody from Serenity? Did "Zoe" tell them to stay away? I don't think so. If that is really Zoë Washburne in Float Out, this is a half-written story. Where's the rest of it explaining why nobody from Serenity came?

I know Patton Oswalt, the writer of Float Out, is a new father. He probably was thinking that a really adventurous & important story is about a husband impregnating his wife. Readers of Serenity: Float Out are less impressed with that ancient story. If the story had been about Wash cheating on Zoë, that would create some conflict. Zoë wants a child by Wash; she doesn't get one. The other woman "Zoe" gets Wash's child. Can you imagine how mad Zoë would be about that? That's entertainment. Zoë may shoot Jayne before the day is over.



The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Sunday, September 19, 2010 9:40 AM

ROCKETJOCK


Quote:

Originally posted by piratenews:
One can never have too much cannon. Or grenades.



Heh. Ooops.

For the record, PN, this is one of the few times that I agree with you on something.

Mortars is nice, too.

"There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload.'" -- The Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates

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Sunday, September 19, 2010 11:25 AM

GWEK


Guys, Wash is dead. Get over it.

To deny his death or try to negate it is to belittle the sacrifice that he and Book (and Universe) made, and that the others were willing to make to set things concerning Miranda to right.

Wash is gone and he's not coming back (at least not in any form that would really be "our" Wash. We've all seen enough of Whedon's work to know that, haven't we?).

Don't forget that Joss and Alan have discussed the fact that Wash was slated to die in the series had it continued.

RIP, Hoban. I'm sorry for all these folk who keep messing with your grave trying to pull a monkey's paw out of their butts... :P

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Sunday, September 19, 2010 4:48 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by GWEK:
Wash is gone and he's not coming back (at least not in any form that would really be "our" Wash. We've all seen enough of Whedon's work to know that, haven't we?).

Don't forget that Joss and Alan have discussed the fact that Wash was slated to die in the series had it continued.

RIP, Hoban. I'm sorry for all these folk who keep messing with your grave trying to pull a monkey's paw out of their butts... :P

We wouldn't be arguing about whether Joss was a brilliant storyteller for killing Wash if Joss Whedon had only cut off Wash's arm. THAT would have been brilliant.

More shocking than killing Wash is Wash losing his right arm. He is bleeding to death. The crew is in a panic. Wash can't be moved far without killing him. They can't bring as much ammo because Zoe and Mal are carrying Wash. Mal is forced to split the group. In the movie, the group splits for a ridiculous reason: “This is a good hold point.” Bull! If not for Wash, the smart move would be for Mal and crew to retreat up the elevator and then shutdown the elevator.

Instead of everyone being trapped by a broken elevator ( Notice how the elevator magically fixed itself when Mal returned? Very fortunate. ) the crew is realistically trapped by Wash. The story could have the tension of staying to defend Wash or fleeing to safety in the elevator. Who is staying to fight beside Zoe? Who will abandon Wash and Zoe? I can see Jayne oscillating between saving himself and staying with Wash and Zoe. Simon stays for Wash. River stays for Simon. Kaylee and Inara dither.

I think Joss goofed when he killed Wash. The movie would have been more intense and scarier if Wash was only maimed, not dead. With him dead, Wash becomes nothing. With him alive, Wash becomes everything, even more important than delivering the Miranda message.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Sunday, September 19, 2010 6:07 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by two: With him dead, Wash becomes nothing. With him alive, Wash becomes everything, even more important than delivering the Miranda message.



There is NOTHING more important than the delivering of the message. That's kinda the whole reason of the show existing. Mal has this ship to say to the Alliance and show everyone that the needs of the many to be free is WAAAY more important than the need of anyone for faux security and the illusion of perfection.
Plus there's that whole screwin' wit "da MAN" fun. That never gets old. ;)


I agree with Gwek. You can TRY to bend reality to fit you, but all that ever comes of it is YOU are the one getting bent... Wouldn't be much integrity left to the show if Joss pulled out the "easy button/magic wand" and caved... Real life is messy, sometimes the nice guy just DIES and ain't nuthin' to be done about it... Besides, nothing good ever came without sacrifice, so it's fitting to me.

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Sunday, September 19, 2010 6:14 PM

BYTEMITE


A number of physicists are beginning to believe the future IS set, which means the past also has to happen the way it happened. In quantum mechanics, they're discovering that not only does the Uncertainty Principle come into play, where just measuring one state of reality can alter that state of reality, but even that measurements in the future retroactively altered measurements in the past to what they were recorded as.

Bizarre!

This has interesting implications on River, and why she might not only be able to read people, but also the future. Logical prediction comes into play, of course, but depending on how minutely River can read people, if she's somehow aware down to a molecular level, she could theoretically SEE the changes the future affects on the past in people's minds, and see phantom will-be connections of memories and experiences those people will have LATER. :o

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Sunday, September 19, 2010 6:29 PM

GWEK


Quote:

Originally posted by two:
We wouldn't be arguing about whether Joss was a brilliant storyteller for killing Wash if Joss Whedon had only cut off Wash's arm. THAT would have been brilliant.



I didn't realize that we were arguing about Whedon's brilliance.

If he had chose to cut off Wash's arm, those of us who appreciate what SERENITY is about, thematically, would be arguing that Whedon was a sell-out who took the easy way out--much as Lucas did in RETURN OF THE JEDI.

As a thirteen-year-old, I was excited that all my childhood heroes survived to the end of RotJ, but it wasn't long before I realized that the story might well have been much stronger with the noble (and foreshadowed) demise of the Millenium Falcon and Lando Calrissian.

Not that I WANT my heroes to die, but without risk, their sacrifice and struggle has little meaning.

Despite the best efforts of some of his staff, Lucas veto'd the idea of killing Lando, noting that Star Wars is basically a fairy tale and the heroes should all come home.

Whedon, though, isn't writing a fairy tale. He's writing a story for grown-ups, where grown-up things happen.



www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Sunday, September 19, 2010 6:36 PM

BYTEMITE


Yeah. :) I know I argued a few threads ago about pointless death, but when I realized this about River, I realized that there are no plot holes, and therefore I no longer have any problem with the deaths in Serenity.

...Though I still don't really like deaths for the sake of upping the ante, and think there are probably better devices to use for that. But so long as there are no introduced plotholes, I'm willing to grudgingly accept this in a story.

Anyway.

Should we spoiler this? Do we need to spoiler it?

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Sunday, September 19, 2010 6:49 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

A number of physicists are beginning to belief the future IS set, which means the past also has to happen the way it happened.
You got that right! I can say with confidence that everybody that earns their living from general relativity believes that the future and past are fixed. That is built into the theory. The show Lost said it best when Daniel Faraday says at one point, “What happened, happened”; Sawyer just says “What’s done is done.” Doesn't leave any wiggle room to rescue Wash from death.
A real physicist writing about time travel:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/01/28/time-trave
l-in-lost-the-metaphorics-of-predestination
/
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/02/03/time-trave
l-done-right-a-book-excerpt
/

General Realitivity doesn't leave any room for undoing past errors. But that never stopped story writers from creating Time Travel romances.

Quote:

In quantum mechanics, they're discovering that not only does the Uncertainty Principle come into play, where just measuring one state of reality can alter that state of reality, but even that measurements in the future retroactively altered measurements in the past to what they were recorded as.
You got that right, too! I'm looking a David Z Albert “Time and Chance” and Huw Price “Time's Arrow and Archimedes' Point”. Both books say what you say. The name for backwards causality is Advanced Action, which doesn't sound like it violates commonsense as much as saying that the future determines the past for particular quantum experiments.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Sunday, September 19, 2010 7:23 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by GWEK:
Quote:

Originally posted by two:
We wouldn't be arguing about whether Joss was a brilliant storyteller for killing Wash if Joss Whedon had only cut off Wash's arm. THAT would have been brilliant.



I didn't realize that we were arguing about Whedon's brilliance.

If he had chose to cut off Wash's arm, those of us who appreciate what SERENITY is about, thematically, would be arguing that Whedon was a sell-out who took the easy way out--much as Lucas did in RETURN OF THE JEDI.

As a thirteen-year-old, I was excited that all my childhood heroes survived to the end of RotJ, but it wasn't long before I realized that the story might well have been much stronger with the noble (and foreshadowed) demise of the Millenium Falcon and Lando Calrissian.

Not that I WANT my heroes to die, but without risk, their sacrifice and struggle has little meaning.

Despite the best efforts of some of his staff, Lucas veto'd the idea of killing Lando, noting that Star Wars is basically a fairy tale and the heroes should all come home.

Whedon, though, isn't writing a fairy tale. He's writing a story for grown-ups, where grown-up things happen.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

If Joss wants to follow the example of Cormac McCarthy, then it's perfectly alright for him to slaughter characters at random. Joss should direct Cormac McCarthy's The Road. Whoops! That's been done. How about No Country For Old Men? Been done. What is the body count on McCarthy's All the Pretty Horses? I haven't seen that one. The summary: "Two young Texas cowboys on the cusp of manhood ride into 1940's Mexico in search of experience. What they find is a country as chaotic as it is beautiful, as cruel and unfeeling as it is mysterious, where death is a constant, capricious companion."

Should Harry Potter be killed by Voldemort in the first book? Not if J. K. Rowling wants a sequel. Does James Cameron kill John Connors? Not if Cameron wants a sequel. Pop storytellers can slaughter characters by the thousands, yet some characters they can't kill without alienating their audience and ruining book & ticket sales. That's a limitation of pop culture and Joss is wanting to test the limits.

Joss can try to be Cormac McCarthy, who does not write sequels and has permission to murder whomever his heart craves because it is PROFOUND ART FOR GROWN-UPS where we learn about death. Or Joss can stay with kinder and gentler Pop Culture with occasional horror motifs. It is his career.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, September 20, 2010 5:12 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

General Realitivity doesn't leave any room for undoing past errors. But that never stopped story writers from creating Time Travel romances.


General Relativity also doesn't rule out time travel!

There's a trick to "fixing" things, you see. If you're going into the past to change something, sorry, but you're out of luck. But if you're going into the past to preserve the timeline, then you have to be successful!

This has more applications than you might think. For example, if you're from the future, and you see a story about a cute girl who would've died if not for the intervention of her boyfriend, and you realize "ho crap! That's ME!" then you will end up getting the girl. Good news! :) Similarly, if some unknown fate is supposed to befall your girl, have your future self abduct her, so that your past self will also want to travel back into time and save her. She might be a little cheesed off about it once she figures out that you caused the whole mess you were warning her about in the first place, but eventually, if she has any kind of head on her shoulders, she'll find the irony hilarious. If she doesn't, dump her ass.

Horray science!

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Monday, September 20, 2010 5:29 AM

BYTEMITE


That's okay. I don't remember anyway.

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Monday, September 20, 2010 5:30 AM

BYTEMITE


-into existence about now.

Phew. Sorry about that. Forget I said anything.

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Monday, September 20, 2010 5:55 AM

ZEEK


Quote:

Originally posted by two:
Quote:

Originally posted by GWEK:
RIP, Hoban. I'm sorry for all these folk who keep messing with your grave trying to pull a monkey's paw out of their butts... :P

We wouldn't be arguing about whether Joss was a brilliant storyteller for killing Wash if Joss Whedon had only cut off Wash's arm. THAT would have been brilliant.

More shocking than killing Wash is Wash losing his right arm. He is bleeding to death. The crew is in a panic. Wash can't be moved far without killing him. They can't bring as much ammo because Zoe and Mal are carrying Wash. Mal is forced to split the group. In the movie, the group splits for a ridiculous reason: “This is a good hold point.” Bull! If not for Wash, the smart move would be for Mal and crew to retreat up the elevator and then shutdown the elevator.

Instead of everyone being trapped by a broken elevator ( Notice how the elevator magically fixed itself when Mal returned? Very fortunate. ) the crew is realistically trapped by Wash. The story could have the tension of staying to defend Wash or fleeing to safety in the elevator. Who is staying to fight beside Zoe? Who will abandon Wash and Zoe? I can see Jayne oscillating between saving himself and staying with Wash and Zoe. Simon stays for Wash. River stays for Simon. Kaylee and Inara dither.

I think Joss goofed when he killed Wash. The movie would have been more intense and scarier if Wash was only maimed, not dead. With him dead, Wash becomes nothing. With him alive, Wash becomes everything, even more important than delivering the Miranda message.


What? If they retreated up the elevator and shut it down the reavers would have torn the place apart getting in. Then they'd be stuck in a room with no cover and reavers coming out of the woodwork. Didn't you see the operative get in through the ceiling?

When did the elevator break? I didn't see any of them trying to get on the elevator. I think they had a few too many wounded to squeeze everybody in for one trip. Anyone left behind would be dead. It would really only buy them a few minutes before the reavers climbed up after them anyway.

The deaths really ramped up the intensity in a way that a lost limb just couldn't compete with. We all know that in stories the good guys tend to survive despite all the ways they should have died. When Joss killed 2 of the 9 main cast members, busted up Serenity and had other people getting critically wounded it really started to seem like the crew was making their last stand. You can't get that kind of intensity from a wound that we all know the character will survive.

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Monday, September 20, 2010 6:21 AM

BYTEMITE


If the argument we're making against two's point is that it would pin them down so the Reavers would get them, hell, isn't that what happened anyway? Supposedly the only reason that room was a good hold point was because it had a door that Kaylee could seal shut... That later turned out to be broken.

The situation was borked as it was, down the elevator or staying in the room. Admittedly, there were two reasons for staying in the room. 1) They were buying Mal more time, and 2) the room happened to be fairly close to the outside wall for the Alliance to storm in and unintentionally save their bacon.

But they could have also done that with Wash "dying," and it would add another plausible reason for them to stay there.

It works either way, Wash dead or Wash with them and dying... Just sayin'. I bet that considering Book already died, a lot of people would be worried about a Wash dying scenario, whether or not logically they think "if he's not already dead, then he probably lives." An uncertain outcome would only ramp up tension in the scene, especially because the situation already looks bad enough that you have to wonder if any of the crew would make it through. It's also possible the shock of Wash's death might have surprised or irritated some fans that they didn't feel the full intensity of the situation.

Quote:

When did the elevator break? I didn't see any of them trying to get on the elevator. I think they had a few too many wounded to squeeze everybody in for one trip. Anyone left behind would be dead. It would really only buy them a few minutes before the reavers climbed up after them anyway.


Yeah, I don't think the elevator was broken. They were buying Mal time, like I said, and if that was the objective then leading the Reavers DOWN to him would be self-defeating.

I was more bothered by the bridge magically extending when the fight with the Operative was over... You two boys couldn't have found the bridge control panels from the OTHER SIDE of the gap? Honestly. I doubt Mr. Universe was so particularly acrobatic with his space-monkey ancestry that he'd just hand-over-hand on CHAINS hanging above rotating fans to reach a powerful communication array.

On the other hand, imagine Mal grumbling about the hard to find control panel as he's crossing the bridge after all the excitement is over. :)

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Monday, September 20, 2010 7:16 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by Zeek:
When did the elevator break? I didn't see any of them trying to get on the elevator. I think they had a few too many wounded to squeeze everybody in for one trip. Anyone left behind would be dead. It would really only buy them a few minutes before the reavers climbed up after them anyway.

In the movie, Inara is by the elevator, pounding for it to come.
INARA - "Lift isn't moving..."
Inara was at the elevator because they were running out of bullets. It was time to leave, but Joss Whedon, the naughty boy, had turned off the elevator because he could. He is the director/writer and does as he pleases. Joss turned on the elevator, which was very convenient, when Mal returned. The gang is still trying to patch themselves together when the elevator doors open. Mal staggers out, holding his bleeding side.

And this is how I know they running out of bullets:
ZOE - "How much ammo do we have?"
JAYNE - "We got three full mags and my swingin' cod. That's all."

I know that the elevator (sometimes broken, sometimes not, depending on Joss' whim ) seems like an unimportant detail, but it is not because it is the ONLY thing prevented them from escaping the Reavers. For fun and extra excitement, Joss Whedon decided that there would be no emergency stairway near the elevator. (sarcasm on) Maybe that's normal in 500 years when elevators are super-reliable and power never fails, (sarcasm off) but that is criminally negligent on Earth. Joss is the director and commonsense can't stop him.

I admit that I'm a fool. I expected too much from only a $40,000,000 production budget for Serenity. Joss will not obsess over major details of movie sets like Stanley Kubrick did on "Full Metal Jacket", even if those details in "Serenity" are life and death in a real gun battle inside a building.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, September 20, 2010 7:31 AM

BYTEMITE


Hmm. I don't remember this. Is this in the movie or the shooting script?

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Monday, September 20, 2010 7:47 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Hmm. I don't remember this. Is this in the movie or the shooting script?

Movie. Should I get a screenshot of Inara standing by the elevator, mashing the button? Why not! That is Inara saying, "Lift isn't moving... Damn you, Joss! We are trapped!" In a few minutes, Joss will miraculously fix the elevator in time for Mal's return. Mal has to be there to see River's triumph.

If you have ever seen how ranchers sort their cattle by opening and closing gates, you will understand that Joss is doing the same to his actors by turning on and off the elevator. What would have been cool and only take 5 seconds is for Joss to show the lift starting to move. Then Joss shows a Reaver throwing a switch to stop it. “I want you for dinner, pretty women,” thinks the Reaver with a villain’s black mustache.



The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, September 20, 2010 9:26 AM

BYTEMITE


Heh. Okay. Valid pet peeve and detail overlook. :)

Although that brings up another option. Maybe it's possible that all the lens flares and documentary look and the occasional continuity goofs are the result of a character telling the story to their kids. Maybe the end of the series will be Wash, alive and well, relating this story and greatly enjoying how his kids don't believe a word of it after "And then I died."

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Monday, September 20, 2010 9:44 AM

STORYMARK


It could also just be, that Mr. Universe, who presumably built or designed the elevator, put in a safety so that the elevator couldn't be recalled while someone was down there, preventing him from ever getting trapped at the bottom. No biggie.

And this is setting aside the fact that they had just crashed Serenity, not to mention Reaver ships, into the facility. Such things could just maybe cause an electrical short which would make the controls unreliable.



"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, September 20, 2010 10:13 AM

BYTEMITE


Also true!

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Monday, September 20, 2010 1:19 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


The most likely reason the lift wouldn't work is that Mal blocked the doors open on his end so that the Reavers could not get to him.



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Monday, September 20, 2010 8:25 PM

BORIS


Wash is dead folks...Joss's STORY, Joss's prerogative...Life is ugly at times and so are Joss's STORIES, which is why I find them so refreshingly appealing. Note my emphasis on STORY and STORIES and how I cleverly tied that in with them belonging to Joss. I'm greatful he shares them with us and respect HIS (because they are his ideas) right to choose what direction they go in.

Rose S

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Tuesday, September 21, 2010 1:11 AM

MOOSE


Quote:

Originally posted by ecgordon:
The most likely reason the lift wouldn't work is that Mal blocked the doors open on his end so that the Reavers could not get to him.


Kinda leaves his crew high and dry, though.

My fanwank is that the Operative shut the lift down so no one come down and surprise him.

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Tuesday, September 21, 2010 1:21 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
I was more bothered by the bridge magically extending when the fight with the Operative was over... You two boys couldn't have found the bridge control panels from the OTHER SIDE of the gap? Honestly. I doubt Mr. Universe was so particularly acrobatic with his space-monkey ancestry that he'd just hand-over-hand on CHAINS hanging above rotating fans to reach a powerful communication array.

On the other hand, imagine Mal grumbling about the hard to find control panel as he's crossing the bridge after all the excitement is over. :)

Technology confuses the hell out of Joss. He is terrible with elevators and moving walkways. He leave those problems to be solved by his set builders and special effects people, which is perfectly right most of the time. Famous example: River did a split to hang from the ceiling. Her legs were too short to reach across the hallway. The solution was to move the walls closer. Summer Glau got wet paint on her feet that day.

Some problems can not be solved by a carpenter and a painter. For those the solution is to rewrite the screenplay, else the scene deserves to be mocked like a B movie from Mystery Science Theater 3000. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_Science_Theater_3000

Once filming starts, it is too expensive to rewrite the screenplay. The best that can be done is to put a band-aid on it. The executive producer can hope nobody notices. Another famous example mentioned on the DVD commentary: Test audiences who saw an early version of Serenity thought River slaughtered the Alliance soldiers. The solution that should have always been in the screenplay was for the Operative to say to the soldiers that “It is over. We are finished here.” That was added as a voice-over. And to add to the scene the soldiers lowering their rifles after Joss had said, “Cut! Print it!” That little piece of film needed to be slowed down so it didn't look like the extras were tired of holding the very heavy weapons.

That leaves us with mistakes that are too big to fix. Joss will always say those were part of his artistic vision. Just like Tony Blair will always say stuff about the Iraq War. What can Tony do about Iraq now? What can Joss do about Serenity?

Blair blames God for Iraq War Decision: "I think if you have faith about these things, you realise that judgement is made by other people … and if you believe in God, it's made by God as well." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4772142.stm Well said, Tony! If God and Bush were also wrong about Iraq, how could Tony be blamed? But Tony never bluntly said that because he was so very clever.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Tuesday, September 21, 2010 1:26 AM

BORIS


Fanwank? that's new

Rose S

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Tuesday, September 21, 2010 3:37 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Wash is dead folks...Joss's STORY, Joss's prerogative...Life is ugly at times and so are Joss's STORIES, which is why I find them so refreshingly appealing. Note my emphasis on STORY and STORIES and how I cleverly tied that in with them belonging to Joss. I'm greatful he shares them with us and respect HIS (because they are his ideas) right to choose what direction they go in.


Sure, absolutely. Joss hasn't been doing much work on Firefly, but you don't see me demanding that he drop everything and do what I want him to do. I wasn't in the crowd who was upset that he did Dollhouse, and I wasn't even around during the time when Buffy and Angel fans thought he'd abandoned them for Firefly.

The Firefly series is my favourite, otherwise I wouldn't be here on fireflyfans. But despite my enjoyment of both the series and the movie, intellectually I must acknowledge that the movie and even some of the episodes had plot holes. I'm also waffling about whether or not Wash dying satisfied the emotional impact that Joss was going for. I didn't really "feel" Wash's death, you see, other people say it worked for them, but I just don't know.

Respect for what he's written, the characters and the universe, that's a different thing from an honest literary critique. You strike me as offended by the very thought of analyzing the movie and series for flaws; you needn't be. None of us are pissing on Joss' abilities as a writer, we're just discussing oversights and alternative scenarios.

Also, you say fanwank like it's a bad thing. Lots of FANS do FANwank. The only difference between fans who do and fans who don't is in the manner of how one chooses to express one's fandom.

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Tuesday, September 21, 2010 11:30 AM

BORIS


Ah see this is where writing doesn't capture genuine intent...you can't see my facial expressions or listen to the calm dulcic tones of my voice when I'm writing so the true intent of things gets lost. so here it is: I'm not offended by critique about Serenity at all as I myself can see where the plot holes are and they make me cringe. As for Wash dying I didn't see that as a plot hole, a plot shock perhaps but not a hole. I was was shaken by it but accepted it as part of the story. Also I genuinely do not know what "Fanwank" means, so no I'm not saying it like it's a bad thing It's actually new terminology to me and I was not sure if it was a newly made up slang term or not. thus my question(In Australia to "Wank" means to masturbate so you could imagine what imagery the term Fanwank brings up in my head)not sure how you deduced I was saying it like a bad thing...Apologies much for any unintentional offence caused. In future I will try not to speak about things that may touch on sensitivities (And I mean that genuinely too, not in a bad way).

Rose S

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Tuesday, September 21, 2010 11:37 AM

BYTEMITE


Yep, I completely misinterpreted you. :) Sorry.

Listen, don't censor yourself on our account, keep saying what you want to say, and if it causes some confusion, we can get that ironed out just like we did here. You have the right to your opinion, same as anyone else.

Fanwank, well, it's basically when someone starts to come up with theories either for backstory or unsupported ideas or to account for problems in a story. Some people only apply fanwank to when someone goes to an extreme, obsessing over pointless details or something no one else would care about.

I'll toss up an article about it for reference.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FanWank

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Tuesday, September 21, 2010 4:06 PM

BORIS


Ta muchly on both counts...Fanwank I like it.

Rose S

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