GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Proper grammar

POSTED BY: OPPYH
UPDATED: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 17:09
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 5490
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Wednesday, December 9, 2009 7:32 PM

OPPYH


You're-contraction of you, and are

They're-contraction of They, and are.

Thank you.




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Wednesday, December 9, 2009 7:56 PM

IREMISST


What ya meanin' Guv'na?

Any y'all have a clue what's he's talkin' about?

I ain't gettin' his pickin' on semantics thang,


OMG, O no she di ent...

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Wednesday, December 9, 2009 10:15 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Oh no, thank you Oppy. It's been horrendous of late, hasn't it?

If you still have some confusion, please see my Handy Grammar Guide for more tasty grammar and usage pointers.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=12&t=30118
Really. Please. For the sake of all that is good and decent.

[/sig]

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 3:13 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


If it's not in the grammar guide...

"Then" is a sequential measure of time. First this, THEN that.

"Than" is a comparative. It's better to be pissed OFF, than pissed ON.

And the song goes,

"I'd rather be a hammer than a nail,"

NOT

"I'd rather be a hammer THEN a nail."




Meh, I only get testy about it when someone is ranting about another's intelligence - and misspells it "intellegence". And true story: One member actually addressed the following to me: "You are a idiot." And wasn't being ironic about it. :) I saved it; it's priceless.



Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 4:45 AM

CLJOHNSTON108


And I wish folks would remember the extra 'o' in 'too'!

________________________

"Spry for a dead fella!"

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 4:51 AM

FREEBROWNCOAT


Using a preposition to end a sentence with.

Churchill reportedly said, "That is something up with I will not put."

Not quite true but anusing. http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/churchill.html

No idea where this started but it is fun.

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 5:38 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Noone was the leader of Herman's Hermits. If the room is empty there is no one there.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 6:16 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Noone was the leader of Herman's Hermits. If the room is empty there is no one there.

"Keep the Shiny side up"




YES!!! Thank you for that!

I've also seen it hyphenated ("no-one"), which is acceptable.


You can have a lot of something, but you better not pay alot for it. :)

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 6:21 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Freebrowncoat:
Using a preposition to end a sentence with.

Churchill reportedly said, "That is something up with I will not put."

Not quite true but anusing. http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/churchill.html

No idea where this started but it is fun.


I don't like folks who talk about rain and snow-- why bring weather one would rather stay in out of up for?

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 6:27 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by cljohnston108:
And I wish folks would remember the extra 'o' in 'too'!



And don't forget the same goes for "so" when used as an adverb:

"I'm soo tired." People always forget that one.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 7:35 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Freebrowncoat:
Using a preposition to end a sentence with.

Churchill reportedly said, "That is something up with I will not put."

Not quite true but anusing. http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/churchill.html

No idea where this started but it is fun.




Reminds me of Ben Affleck doing Keith Olbermann on SNL: "This is an outrage, the kind of outrage up with which we dare not put, sir!"

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 7:36 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:

Originally posted by cljohnston108:
And I wish folks would remember the extra 'o' in 'too'!



And don't forget the same goes for "so" when used as an adverb:

"I'm soo tired." People always forget that one.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com




[Raises hand]... Guilty. [/raises hand]

I SOOOOOOOOOO do that. REEEEEALLLLLY I do. :)

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 10:52 PM

RIVERDANCER


Most things mentioned are in that grammar guide. It's a quite excellent grammar guide, I must say. I was and am so happy to find others who love and care for our wonderful language. I still consider, sometimes, starting a similar 'spelling guide' sort of thread, but I think that might be more difficult.
There is one that I like to promote, though.

D-E-F-I-N-I-T-E-L-Y

Many people in this world seem to have uncommon trouble with that one. I'm not sure why. The root word is 'definite' here, not 'defiant.' You might, on some level, think it's defiant to say definatly or some variation thereof, but it really isn't. It's just not a word. At all. Thank you.

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Friday, December 11, 2009 3:16 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


The Internet and internet communications have been a terrible influence on my grammar. Things like typing instead of writing, and texting, and the informality of emails, and the abbreviated style of leaving comments, and the super informality of forums, my Engrish has gone toward teh crapper.
Now, I find myself having a harder time with punctuation; comma placement I'm about 50-50, and "how about a hyphen instead of a period since it's more of a continuation of the same thought?"


Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Friday, December 11, 2009 12:58 PM

11THHOUR


Awesome website:

Common Errors in English Usage

http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/errors.html#errors

Wonderful resource and reference. I've spent time just looking through and finding errors that I've made, without even realizing.

The Interwebs can actually help us with the English language too...

11th

>>>}———————————————)))======<[]>======(((———————————————{<<<

"Because teenage pranks are fun when you're about to die!" - Hoban Washburne

Firefly/Serenity Guerilla Marketing Posters ~ http://the11thhour.home.att.net
Cafe Press Shop ~ http://www.cafepress.com/11thhourart


Spread the word today ~ Give the gift of Firefly: http://www.apple.com/itunes

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Friday, December 11, 2009 1:31 PM

FREELANCERTEX


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko: "Then" is a sequential measure of time. First this, THEN that.

"Than" is a comparative. It's better to be pissed OFF, than pissed ON.

I LOVE it when people mix those up.

RiverDancer: the misspelling of 'definitely' is one of my friend's biggest pet peeves.

My personal favorite is "a lot." Every time I see someone spell it "allot" or "alot" I die a little inside.

a lot: a quantity, as in "a lot of cookies."

allot: to assign as a share or portion -- completely different meaning from 'a lot'


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Friday, December 11, 2009 1:57 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


I'm sure I am not the only person who has become very discouraged by the fact that many people don't seem to care whether they use proper grammar or spell correctly, and they become outraged that anyone would ever call them on it.

One pet peeve I have is when someone voices a concern over another person's grammar but then spell that word incorrectly...grammer.

Another one I see a lot is that people seem to think something can peak their interest. The word is pique. It is possible for your interest to reach a peak, but only after it has been piqued.



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Friday, December 11, 2009 3:23 PM

BORIS


as a speech pathologist...who lives in rural NSW.I have learned not to be to thingy about "correct grammar usage" There are many variations and dialects of the English language used in Australian society and they are for the most part cultural variations. I used to cringe when I overheard people using "bad Grammar" now I cringe when I feel myself cringing in situations I know it's due to diversity rather than educational deprivation or slackness. Who gets to decide what is regarded as proper usage anyway.

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Friday, December 11, 2009 3:59 PM

RIVERDANCER


Quote:

Originally posted by boris:
Who gets to decide what is regarded as proper usage anyway.


Merriam-Webster has my vote. I'm willing to consider other expert sources.



*********************************
"Languages are not just sets of symbols. They also often conform to a rough grammar, or system of rules, used to manipulate the symbols. While a set of symbols may be used for expression or communication, it is primitive and relatively unexpressive, because there are no clear or regular relationships between the symbols. A language that also has a grammar can manipulate its symbols to express clear and regular relationships between them."
*********************************

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Friday, December 11, 2009 4:08 PM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by freelancertex:

My personal favorite is "a lot." Every time I see someone spell it "allot" or "alot" I die a little inside.

a lot: a quantity, as in "a lot of cookies."

allot: to assign as a share or portion -- completely different meaning from 'a lot'


Funny debunk I found in the Wired:

'Alot' The CORRECT form of the term meaning "a large amount" of something. "A lot" (as 2 words) means "a large empty piece of land" as in "a lot for used cars."
"I have alot of friends" means "I have a large number of friends," whereas "I have a lot of friends" means that your buddies are outside standing around in a big empty piece of land, looking like idiots!


LOL. Gotta give the guy credit for originality. :)

Now, for Dictionary.com's Word FAQ:

This should be written as two words: a lot. A lot of people make the mistake of writing them as one. You would not dream of writing, "I am going for alittle walk," so use that to remember that these are two separate words. Remind yourself that just as you would not write alittle you should not write alot.

While I would never write 'alot' myself, it's not so braindead as peeps would have us believe. I say it's akin to 'a while' and the contracted form, 'awhile.' While the latter is an adverb, of course, both these expressions are acceptable: "Stay awhile." and "Stay a while." I can't think of a real legit way to use 'alot' adverbially (like: "How do I love thee? Alot!" LOL). Nonetheless, I can see how people would come to use it that way.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Friday, December 11, 2009 5:55 PM

FREELANCERTEX


That is a funny debunk attempt XD I think he needs to double check his dictionary research especially since 'alot' isn't in the dictionary. Also, the definitions they have under 'a lot' include "a number of units of an article" and "a considerable quantity or extent "

I love how dictionary.com says within its answer: "A lot of people..." XD That kind of settles it right there, lol.


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Friday, December 11, 2009 7:45 PM

SIGMANUNKI


"Peeps", eh?

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Saturday, December 12, 2009 4:00 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
"Peeps", eh?

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"




Peeps? Aren't those the little marshmallow Easter birds that you put in the microwave until they expand to about 10 times their normal size?

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Saturday, December 12, 2009 6:41 PM

SIGMANUNKI


I do believe you are correct. But, I was taking a poke at Asarian. Probably should've put an @ to him/her instead of just hitting the reply on his/her post.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Monday, December 14, 2009 7:07 PM

BORIS


having taken the time to analyse the language used by many people that seem "ungrammatic" (usually on the bus in Newcastle Australia...generally populated by many lower socio economic types some of which I have befriended)I have found that their variations of English are in fact rule governed. The rules are somewhat different to acceptable standards but valid nonetheless e.g. using the past participle forms of verbs instead of simple past forms: "I seen him yesterday" rather than "I saw him yesterday" etc. etc.
on occasion just to test reactions I have pointed out the linguistic differences used by some of my regular bus buddies from the wrong side of the tracks, and have been told that they would sound like "wankers" if they spoke like me as I speak English like a "toff" (Novacastrian term for snob)

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 7:47 AM

RIVERDANCER


Quote:

Originally posted by boris:
have been told that they would sound like "wankers" if they spoke like me as I speak English like a "toff"


And this completely illogical opinion on their part justifies their butchering of the English language, does it? Sounding as though you belong in the gutter should certainly not be a matter of pride.
Even if I were to agree with you on dialect rules, we're not talking about dialect here, because this is a written medium. Netspeek has its own rules, much of the time, but netspeek is mostly limited to abbreviations and shortcuts. Using the completely wrong form of a word is not netspeek and it's certainly not dialect, it's just incorrect. Your instead of you're as is so common, and the original problem this thread brought up, is never correct. The 'correct' netspeek would be ur, likely for both forms of the word. I find that sort of thing both lazy and annoying, much as I do with certain dialects, but at least it follows some previously established rules, which relate solely to the internet. Even on the internet, though, if one is attempting to have a lengthy, intelligent, or meaningful conversation, there's no good reason to use netspeek. Prolonged or pervasive use of such shortcuts can make anything more than a sentence or two long into a jumbled mess. Even more so, improper usage of words or improper grammar are a roadblock to understanding. Trolls often use such roadblocks deliberately, calling non-existent 'internet rules' to justify their asshattery when anyone calls them on it.
Imagine if this whole post was a mass of netspeek, improper forms of words, little to no punctuation, et cetera. In the unlikely event that it could be understood, no one would be likely to take me very seriously at all. Speaking on any subject beyond the casual necessitates a certain level of communication and demonstrable intelligence, if anyone is going to understand or take you seriously. You may well say, "hay guyz, wat r u doin?" in a chatroom or a text or what have you, and that's short and casual enough that it won't be terribly confusing; you're not debating or professing knowledge or anything else that would require depth of understanding and/or respect for said knowledge. On the other hand, someone who says, "im so better than you i has smart and your wrong cuz i no wat im sayin" is just setting themselves up for ridicule. Especially here, on a forum of some intelligent people who have been known to sharpen language into a pretty devastating weapon, who won't take you at all seriously if you can't figure such simple things out.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 8:17 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Kwicko hearts RiverDancer. :)


That was beautiful.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 8:21 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I also find informal "netspeak" acceptable on a LOLCatz pic.



I don't assume cats are very good with grammar. ;)

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 9:28 AM

PHYRELIGHT


Quote:

Originally posted by 11thHour:
Awesome website:

Common Errors in English Usage

http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/errors.html#errors

Wonderful resource and reference. I've spent time just looking through and finding errors that I've made, without even realizing.

The Interwebs can actually help us with the English language too...

11th

>>>}———————————————)))======<[]>======(((———————————————{<<<

"Because teenage pranks are fun when you're about to die!" - Hoban Washburne

Firefly/Serenity Guerilla Marketing Posters ~ http://the11thhour.home.att.net
Cafe Press Shop ~ http://www.cafepress.com/11thhourart


Spread the word today ~ Give the gift of Firefly: http://www.apple.com/itunes

*glances at the first post in this thread*

*snort*




 /l、
(゚、 。 7 -- I can haz cheezburger?
 l、 ~ヽ
 じしf_, )ノ

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:06 AM

KINGEICHOLZ


Quote:

Originally posted by RiverDancer:
Quote:

Originally posted by boris:
have been told that they would sound like "wankers" if they spoke like me as I speak English like a "toff"


And this completely illogical opinion on their part justifies their butchering of the English language, does it? Sounding as though you belong in the gutter should certainly not be a matter of pride.
Even if I were to agree with you on dialect rules, we're not talking about dialect here, because this is a written medium. Netspeek has its own rules, much of the time, but netspeek is mostly limited to abbreviations and shortcuts. Using the completely wrong form of a word is not netspeek and it's certainly not dialect, it's just incorrect. Your instead of you're as is so common, and the original problem this thread brought up, is never correct. The 'correct' netspeek would be ur, likely for both forms of the word. I find that sort of thing both lazy and annoying, much as I do with certain dialects, but at least it follows some previously established rules, which relate solely to the internet. Even on the internet, though, if one is attempting to have a lengthy, intelligent, or meaningful conversation, there's no good reason to use netspeek. Prolonged or pervasive use of such shortcuts can make anything more than a sentence or two long into a jumbled mess. Even more so, improper usage of words or improper grammar are a roadblock to understanding. Trolls often use such roadblocks deliberately, calling non-existent 'internet rules' to justify their asshattery when anyone calls them on it.
Imagine if this whole post was a mass of netspeek, improper forms of words, little to no punctuation, et cetera. In the unlikely event that it could be understood, no one would be likely to take me very seriously at all. Speaking on any subject beyond the casual necessitates a certain level of communication and demonstrable intelligence, if anyone is going to understand or take you seriously. You may well say, "hay guyz, wat r u doin?" in a chatroom or a text or what have you, and that's short and casual enough that it won't be terribly confusing; you're not debating or professing knowledge or anything else that would require depth of understanding and/or respect for said knowledge. On the other hand, someone who says, "im so better than you i has smart and your wrong cuz i no wat im sayin" is just setting themselves up for ridicule. Especially here, on a forum of some intelligent people who have been known to sharpen language into a pretty devastating weapon, who won't take you at all seriously if you can't figure such simple things out.

When did u because a big expert on the english language/ Get off it if you don't like how people spell then don't read it.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:19 AM

RIVERDANCER


Aw, RiverDancer hearts Kwicko. :)


lolcats get away with a multitude of sins, by virtue of being so cute and hilarious.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 4:50 PM

BORIS


Riverdancer I can see where you are coming from and maybe this will make me seem hypocritical, but I feel the same way in many respects.E.g. I am irked when educated people mis spell, or mispronounce words.I abhor it when people give their kids stupid made up names, or names that have been mis-spelled. I find variations such as netspeak and text speak baffling and irritating but on some level I am equally intrigued by their development. Regarding spoken English, I've had the advantage of mixing with and befriending many different kinds of people (including professional linguists who hold similar beliefs to my own regarding what is regarded as "correct" spoken language use).I have been exposed to people who have difficulty communicating due to diverse cultures or disorders, and who have had to adapt the way they reach out to others through language. Subsequently for me as long as people are respectful and are able to communicate with me on some level I understand, I try to accept whatever variety of English they use to get their message across and try not to make judgements. (which considering a history of being an intellectual snob is difficult). also re my friends who think I speak like a Toff: they are not all from the gutter, those that are did not choose to come from there, and for the most part they accept that the way I speak as being part of who I am, in the same way i do not judge them for using English differently to the way I use it.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 5:09 PM

RIVERDANCER


Quote:

Originally posted by boris:
as long as people are respectful


Bingo. The main beef of this thread and those like it are the people who flatly refuse to spell/use words correctly. If they would listen the first five dozen times someone said they were being utterly incomprehensible, if they would refrain from deliberately butchering the language in the hopes of pressing buttons, this sort of conversation would likely never start.
Quote:

they are not all from the gutter, those that are did not choose to come from there

I didn't say they were, or that they did, I said speaking and acting as though one belongs in the gutter should not be a matter of pride. If they're fine with it, then good for them, but saying proper usage makes someone a snob or a toff or whatever is ludicrous, in my opinion. It like the difference between saying "I don't mind eating ramen noodles all the time." and "You're such a snob for not eating ramen noodles. You think you're better than me or something, because you eat deli sandwiches." That might not even be a fair comparison, because language is such a major class divider in a lot of cultures. If you sound low-class, a lot of doors are likely to be closed to you. It's illogical to be proud of speaking that way, or to be unwilling to change for any reason. What if you had great aptitude for the law, but could never win a case if you sounded uneducated, no matter how many tests you aced? Would speaking properly still make you sound like a 'toff' or a 'wanker'? Really?
Anyway, we seem to be much in agreement when it comes to written words, which was the main thrust of the discussion. I appreciate that you have your own unique perspective on linguistics, that being your area of study. The English language in all its official glory has been my area of study for a number of years now, and one of my greatest interests for years before that. I'm sure you can likewise appreciate my perspective.

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