GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

New thread on Serenity's engines

POSTED BY: RAPTORX
UPDATED: Sunday, February 15, 2004 14:53
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Wednesday, February 11, 2004 3:37 PM

STATIC


Okay. . .I think Raptor hit it dead bang. . .I'd like to add a bit and emphasize a few points. . .

Raptor is right. . .in the atmosphere, you need constant thrust to stay airborne. I'm not led to believe that Serenity is equipped with any sort of 'anti-grav' technology, because if she were, you wouldn't get all of the cool shots of Wash gripping the yoke with his arms shaking and such.

I'm pretty convinced that there is no FTL drive in "Firefly". . .that they occupy a single solar system. I don't want to open THAT debate again, I'm just saying that's what I think, and what I base this next bit on. . .

Raptor, once again, dead bang. . .I think when they go from planet to planet, Wash sits down and 'plots a course' on the computer. The computer knows where they are, what planet they're going TO, and since planets MOVE, just WHERE that planet will BE in the next little while . .and they shoot a few blasts from the big shiny butt engine. . .and then the navsat antennas eventually pick up navigation points.. .remind the computer, and the computer then fires small directional jets to change course. I don't think any ships in the Firefly universe fly 'curves' in space. . .just a series of straight lines if that makes sense.

Anyhow, that's my opinion. . .I could be wrong.

Except about the first part of needing constant thrust in atmo.

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Wednesday, February 11, 2004 4:10 PM

TPOPE


Quote:

I'm not led to believe that Serenity is equipped with any sort of 'anti-grav' technology, because if she were, you wouldn't get all of the cool shots of Wash gripping the yoke with his arms shaking and such.


Actually Kaylee did explain that in "The Message" when the ship was doing all of those fancy evasive maneuvers to get away from the Feds.

I don't remember the exact quote, something about "...when the gravity drive works against real gravity"

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Wednesday, February 11, 2004 4:16 PM

STATIC


The gravity drive she refers to is what creates gravity inside the ship when they're in space, since Serenity doesn't spin.

An 'anti-gravity' field would eliminate the resistance that creates the vibration effect you see in Wash's arms when he's doing those neato manuvers.

I also figure those 'wing' engines put out an ASSLOAD of thrust because Serenity has the aerodynamics of a BRICK.

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Wednesday, February 11, 2004 4:44 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Hey Raptor, great name there.

Anyway, not sure Serinity's main engine is for burn in ' atmo ' .... but more for inter-planetary useage. I only wish ( being picky here ) that the side engines on Serinity would show more nozzel action, but other than that, I'm in love w/ the old girl. I see what Mal likes about her.

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Wednesday, February 11, 2004 5:00 PM

TPOPE


Quote:

The gravity drive she refers to is what creates gravity inside the ship when they're in space, since Serenity doesn't spin.


Odd thing to call it, but I'm not sure I can disagree with you there.

There's certainly no apparent anti-gravity at work in the effects, just brute force, like you said.

To be honest though, I don't think they have a good tech bible for the show. They have a good idea of how they want things to look and 'feel' but there's very little in the way of explanation.

I'm willing to bet that while the individual scripts are screened by Joss and company, if someone puts in a techno sounding word for some piece of the ship (i.e gravity drive) they just run with it and make sure to call it that from now on.

It's not a complaint, but probably means that paying too much attention to what they call something in the script (as I just did) isn't necessarily worth much.

Still, it's a bit of a quandry. If they're using just inertial drives and not using a constant burn, that initial push needs to be a biggie. Not only does it mean they have some REALLY efficient inertial compensators (to keep everyone from being red smears on the aft bulkheads the first time they accelerate) but somehow not so big that they can't slow themselves down to come to a 0-0 intercept with wherever they're going.

Oh well, I'm starting to ramble. In the end I just think they haven't actually worked the math. No worse than Star Wars really, and it doesn't detract from the show.

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Wednesday, February 11, 2004 5:10 PM

STATIC


Quote:

Originally posted by tpope:
No worse than Star Wars really, and it doesn't detract from the show.




See. . .that's why I began to shy away from Star Trek. . .so many of their episodes were based on 'tech-based crisis', and I didn't want to hear about the tragedies that damn aft thermocoupler was living with.

Firefly gives you a little tech, but it seems that Joss and Co.'s attitude is summed up with this statement uttered by my gunner the other night:

"Look! It's a ship! It flies in Space! How? Nevermind that right now, the crew's got problems!"

And lo and behold, you're so wrapped up in Mal's angst, Simon's devotion to River, the budding romance between Simon and Kaylee, Wash and Zoe's strong but sometimes struggling marriage. . .and all those things that you downright forget that you don't quite understand HOW two big-assed engines can make a CINDER BLOCK fly at high speeds and manuverability through a canyon.

I'm glad you caught on. Who cares why the ship flies? We care about the guys inside it.

Oh yeah. . .and no goofy foreheads, either! (Except Simon's. . .can we say, 'different hairstyle' please?)

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Wednesday, February 11, 2004 5:14 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.


Quote:

In space, however, there is no friction to slow you down, only the occational gravity pulls from nearby planets, stars, and other spacial anomolies, and those pulls could be corrected by small bursts from the secondary engines. Initially you would need the great amount of speed supplied by the main engine, but after a short burn, you could just ride out the rest of the way with the engines refiring only in course adjustments and to slow the ship down once it reached it's destination.


This sounds pretty standard. Do you think they might use the gravity of planets and moons to generate inertia to get where they're going.(There's a good description of this type of manuver in one of the episodes of Star Trek the Next Generation when Picard's replacement is talking to Geordi about "Titan's Turn." Anyway, might be why Wash has to go through so much trouble to plot an "under the radar" course in OoG.

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Wednesday, February 11, 2004 5:31 PM

AERRIN


Quote:

Originally posted by Static:


Oh yeah. . .and no goofy foreheads, either! (Except Simon's. . .can we say, 'different hairstyle' please?)




Hey, are you ripping on Simon? That's.. close to blasphemy! ;)

Great points, by the way. I love it when the tech matches up, because it makes it that much richer and satisifies the obsessive in me, but if it doesn't.. well. So long as the /plot/ lines up, I'll be a happy camper.

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Wednesday, February 11, 2004 5:47 PM

JASONZZZ



Our space programs do that today with the satellite travels to the other planets. They use the acceleration from a hyperbolic path thru the other planet's gravity wells to slingshot them thru the solar system. So, no reason why the tech in the show don't, but then again. It doesn't seem like the writers are too Sci-fi'ish or was thinking too much about tech.


Quote:

Originally posted by Veteran:
Quote:

In space, however, there is no friction to slow you down, only the occational gravity pulls from nearby planets, stars, and other spacial anomolies, and those pulls could be corrected by small bursts from the secondary engines. Initially you would need the great amount of speed supplied by the main engine, but after a short burn, you could just ride out the rest of the way with the engines refiring only in course adjustments and to slow the ship down once it reached it's destination.


This sounds pretty standard. Do you think they might use the gravity of planets and moons to generate inertia to get where they're going.(There's a good description of this type of manuver in one of the episodes of Star Trek the Next Generation when Picard's replacement is talking to Geordi about "Titan's Turn." Anyway, might be why Wash has to go through so much trouble to plot an "under the radar" course in OoG.



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Wednesday, February 11, 2004 6:36 PM

SNEAKER98


Well, it's 400 years from now... stands to reason there might be something unseen at work ;) But yes... I'm so glad there weren't "tech problems" (other then that dang compression coil ;) ) I honestly can't watch star trek anymore because it's just so bland and tasteless...

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
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Wednesday, February 11, 2004 7:18 PM

GUNRUNNER


Just some random thoughts from me….

Well today our space probes use hyperbolic flight paths because they can't carry enough fuel to burn their engines for very long. Serenity on the other hand probably can burn they engines for much much longer so they could do a more direct path between two worlds. I read somewhere that if you could maintain one G of speed you could travel to Mars in a matter of hours.

As for atmospheric flight if they used the power of the ship's space engine (Which must generarate a lot of energy) to drive the two jets they could probably use just them for atmo flight. Since Serenity's jets can tilt they can provide both thrust and lift, so they would only need the pair of engines they have. If you put enough power behind it you can get a brick to fly. (I think that was said of the F-4 Phantom once.)

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Wednesday, February 11, 2004 7:24 PM

SNEAKER98


Hmm... you know what it probably is? Constant thrust forward pushing the ship faster and faster... then reverse thrust to push the ship back to an "atmospheric capable" speed. We saw the reavers do this in the first episode... I mean, just because we don't see the engine doing things doesnt mean it isnt... that initial "cloud" could just be exhaust from starting the fusion reactio or something like that. then it's constant thrust for quite some time, then reverse thrust to negate the velocity and slow down the ship so it wouldnt incinerate in the atmosphere.

I mean, I doubt fuel is too much of a problem.. 400 years from now it'll be much more efficient.

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
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Wednesday, February 11, 2004 7:51 PM

MOMAW


Quote:

Originally posted by Static:
An 'anti-gravity' field would eliminate the resistance that creates the vibration effect you see in Wash's arms when he's doing those neato manuvers.



Not true? Anti-grav would make you not fall out of the sky, but you're still moving through the atmosphere. Something as bulky and awkward as Serenity, lots of turbulence.

I don't think the ship actually has anti-grav, just being nitpicky.

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Thursday, February 12, 2004 12:08 AM

HOTPOINT


Quote:

Originally posted by Static:
An 'anti-gravity' field would eliminate the resistance that creates the vibration effect you see in Wash's arms when he's doing those neato manuvers.



Unless the presense of a major Gravity Well (like a moon or planet) has a major effect on the drive so it doesn't work properly in one? Entering a Gravity well definitely has an effect on the ship's "Gravity Engine"

The terraforming in Firefly also seems to include Gravity Manipulation so that a "small moon" produces a one-gee field. This might also account for effects on a hypothetical "Gravity drive" when you're near a terraformed world. The local Gravity manipulation plays havoc with your engines

Anyhow even with Gravity accounted for you'd still have Inertia to contend with whilst making manoevers surely?

Just a few of my random thoughts on the matter.


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Thursday, February 12, 2004 2:32 AM

CALHOUN


I think Serenity does have an "anti gravity" field you guys are speaking of, but I think "inertial compensator or damper" is probably a more apt description.

The only way the crew could survive the "crazy ivan" manoeuvre is the presense of some form of inertial nullification.

I see the vibrations and bumps (Wash's hands shaking on the stick, Mal and Inara gettin jolted around etc) as evidence of the strain on the inertial compensator.

If there is no inertial compensator and the crew wasnt turned into a thin red smear on the rear wall every time they went for a hard burn they would certainly be paste during the "crazy ivan"

Anyhoows thats my 20cents worth.

:)

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Thursday, February 12, 2004 6:46 AM

JASONZZZ


Quote:

Originally posted by GunRunner:
Just some random thoughts from me….

Well today our space probes use hyperbolic flight paths because they can't carry enough fuel to burn their engines for very long. Serenity on the other hand probably can burn they engines for much much longer so they could do a more direct path between two worlds. I read somewhere that if you could maintain one G of speed you could travel to Mars in a matter of hours.





At it's further point, mars is 378 million kms. At 1G constant acceleration, you can reach it in 77.15 hrs (Of course you will be blowing by it at little less than 3 million meters per second or about 6 million miles per hour) At it's closest pt 78 million kms, and again at 1G constant acceleration, you can reach it at 35+ hrs (you would attain the speed of around 1.2 million meters per second or 2.7 million miles per hour)

not bad.


Quote:

Originally posted by GunRunner:


As for atmospheric flight if they used the power of the ship's space engine (Which must generarate a lot of energy) to drive the two jets they could probably use just them for atmo flight. Since Serenity's jets can tilt they can provide both thrust and lift, so they would only need the pair of engines they have. If you put enough power behind it you can get a brick to fly. (I think that was said of the F-4 Phantom once.)



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Thursday, February 12, 2004 9:19 AM

GROUNDED


Quote:

Originally posted by Hotpoint:

The terraforming in Firefly also seems to include Gravity Manipulation so that a "small moon" produces a one-gee field. This might also account for effects on a hypothetical "Gravity drive" when you're near a terraformed world. The local Gravity manipulation plays havoc with your engines



The gravitational field of a body is defined by its mass - not its volume. Thus a 'small moon' can generate a one-gee field as long as its density is high enough to compensate for its smaller-than-Earth volume.

On the other hand, the floaty things in Trash do pose a bit of a problem...

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Thursday, February 12, 2004 9:33 AM

HOTPOINT


Quote:

Originally posted by Grounded:
The gravitational field of a body is defined by its mass - not its volume. Thus a 'small moon' can generate a one-gee field as long as its density is high enough to compensate for its smaller-than-Earth volume.



Yes but if we're sticking by the single solar system theory what's the chances of so many worlds having a one-gee field?

Getting that many planets & moons in stable orbits within the stars "Goldilocks" zone is already a hell of a challenge without serious gravity manipulation I would have thought?


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Thursday, February 12, 2004 11:33 AM

FORTUNATUS


First, I agree entirely with the "it's a show; get over it" crowd. Joss & crew obviously didn't sit down and hash out all the techy stuff beforehand because the show is about the humans.

That said, here's my opinion of how things might work.

I think Serenity's artificial gravity has to be used in a similar fashion to ST's inertial dampers. Otherwise, as has been mentioned, the Crazy Ivan would have left everyone dead--not to mention what would have happened to all of the furniture in the ship.

Artificial gravity could imply the ability to mess with the impact of an object's mass on space-time. This could be used to allow FTL travel. There's a serious theory going around today that one could actually make a FTL ship by somehow warping space-time around a ship to make it "slip" forward faster than light regardless of its mass. AG could, possibly, cause such a specialized warping of space.

I think this is a reasonably explanation for how Serenity gets around, using its fusion reactor for very fast (but less than FTL) speeds in the black and its side engines for maneuvering and traveling at speeds humans (e.g. Wash) can more easily comprehend in and around obstacles like planets and moons.

As for moving in an atmosphere, I think that Serenity is made buoyant but not truly weightless with its AG generators. This comes mostly from her engines being pointed mostly aft while she's flying. Considering how little lift she'd generate, they'd really need to be practically straight down the whole time otherwise.

The main mystery to me is how one might justify the speed of communication in the show. There's a second's delay just communicating with the moon by laser, and yet various characters hold conversations in real-time over huge distances. A "wave" must operate by some strange principle of physics which we haven't yet discovered.

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Friday, February 13, 2004 2:30 AM

GROUNDED


Quote:

Originally posted by Hotpoint:

Yes but if we're sticking by the single solar system theory what's the chances of so many worlds having a one-gee field?



The point I was making is it's explainable without additional tech. If humanity has the capability to reach another solar system then presumably they have the capability to assess candidate systems for suitability. Of our 9 planets, Saturn, Uranus and Venus all have gravitational fields closely comparable to Earth's. If Firefly's solar system is more densely populated with planets (and moons) then maybe there are plenty of planets with roughly one-gee fields. Just a thought

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Friday, February 13, 2004 3:26 AM

HOTPOINT


Quote:

Originally posted by Grounded:
If Firefly's solar system is more densely populated with planets (and moons) then maybe there are plenty of planets with roughly one-gee fields. Just a thought



Maybe but to have that many one-gee worlds in the Goldilocks* Zone too? Definitely heading for a serious case of statistical improbability here my friend

I'll stick to Gravity Manipulation as my explanation



*Just in case there are non-space geeks still reading this, The "Goldilocks" Zone is the nickname for the possible orbits around a sun which are neither too hot or too cold to readily support Human habitation. Around Sol it's roughly from Venus to Mars I believe

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Friday, February 13, 2004 5:57 AM

JASONZZZ



Rosettes are metastable configurations and
is very possible to have many many many of
them around a star's biozone.

Check it out:
http://burtleburtle.net/bob/physics/kempler.html


Quote:

Originally posted by Hotpoint:
Quote:

Originally posted by Grounded:
If Firefly's solar system is more densely populated with planets (and moons) then maybe there are plenty of planets with roughly one-gee fields. Just a thought



Maybe but to have that many one-gee worlds in the Goldilocks* Zone too? Definitely heading for a serious case of statistical improbability here my friend

I'll stick to Gravity Manipulation as my explanation



*Just in case there are non-space geeks still reading this, The "Goldilocks" Zone is the nickname for the possible orbits around a sun which are neither too hot or too cold to readily support Human habitation. Around Sol it's roughly from Venus to Mars I believe

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Friday, February 13, 2004 6:09 AM

HOTPOINT


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:

Rosettes are metastable configurations and
is very possible to have many many many of
them around a star's biozone.



Kempler Rosettes are certainly a possibility. However to run across a "naturally occuring" one full of one-gee worlds anywhere near Sol (since we're also saying no FTL Drives) what are the chances?

If we assume serious Gravity Manipulation Technology then I could see a single manufactured system of moved and modified worlds though



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Friday, February 13, 2004 6:30 AM

JASONZZZ



Don't know what the odds are, but people living on those worlds probably think we are the odd cousin with just one livable planet and wasting all that space.

Quote:

Originally posted by Hotpoint:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:

Rosettes are metastable configurations and
is very possible to have many many many of
them around a star's biozone.



Kempler Rosettes are certainly a possibility. However to run across a "naturally occuring" one full of one-gee worlds anywhere near Sol (since we're also saying no FTL Drives) what are the chances?

If we assume serious Gravity Manipulation Technology then I could see a single manufactured system of moved and modified worlds though



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Friday, February 13, 2004 6:59 AM

ARAWAEN


Apparantly in the Firefly press kit is a map of the firefly universe. It has been described as a planetary nebulae map.

My understanding is that a true planetary nebulae has nothing to do with planets, but is a star in the last stages of its life.

This got me to thinking that maybe the firefly 'planetary nebulae' gets its name from being an artificial star system created by using gravity technology in a nebulae to create planets.

Doesn't seem that plausible, but it did pop into my head.

Arawaen

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Saturday, February 14, 2004 1:45 AM

DRAKON


Quote:

Originally posted by Hotpoint:
I'll stick to Gravity Manipulation as my explanation



But, if you get gravity manipulation, you get warp drive, worm holes and FTL.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

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Saturday, February 14, 2004 1:52 AM

HOTPOINT


Quote:

Originally posted by Drakon:
But, if you get gravity manipulation, you get warp drive, worm holes and FTL.



Not necessarily. You might be able to manipulate gravity to a limited extent rather than have unlimited scope to interfere with it

This might also fit in with the idea of reducing rather than eliminating the effects of inertia

Hey it's only the 26th Century give them a few years to perfect the technology

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Saturday, February 14, 2004 3:30 AM

GROUNDED


The point is that a system with many one-gee (or approximately one-gee) planets is possible (however improbable). Talking about gravitational manipulation is purely speculative. I think the one conclusion to be drawn from this thread is that there's really no way to fully reconcile all the 'sciencey' factors in the show! I suppose that tells you something fundamental about the show itself

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Saturday, February 14, 2004 3:57 AM

HOTPOINT


Quote:

Originally posted by Grounded:
Talking about gravitational manipulation is purely speculative



Except for the fact they clearly have artificial gravity on ships and some kind of inertial reducing apparatus (or equivalent) because the Crazy Ivan didn't tear the ship and crew apart

The speculation is how it works not is it there

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Saturday, February 14, 2004 5:21 AM

DRAKON


Quote:

Originally posted by Grounded:
The point is that a system with many one-gee (or approximately one-gee) planets is possible (however improbable). Talking about gravitational manipulation is purely speculative. I think the one conclusion to be drawn from this thread is that there's really no way to fully reconcile all the 'sciencey' factors in the show! I suppose that tells you something fundamental about the show itself



That it is more about characters and plots and people than equipment, neato special effects and technobabble?

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

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Saturday, February 14, 2004 7:59 AM

GROUNDED


Quote:

Originally posted by Drakon:

That it is more about characters and plots and people than equipment, neato special effects and technobabble?



Exactly

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Saturday, February 14, 2004 8:10 AM

GROUNDED


Quote:

Originally posted by Hotpoint:

Except for the fact they clearly have artificial gravity on ships and some kind of inertial reducing apparatus (or equivalent) because the Crazy Ivan didn't tear the ship and crew apart

The speculation is how it works not is it there



The fact that it's there at all is a problem in itself. I find it hard to believe that there's an explanation that reconciles the fact that gravity tech is standard on 'rough' ships like Serenity and Mal still has to relieve himself in a rusted, fold-out-of-the-wall toilet. It's something like the equivalent of having a laptop in a period drama

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Saturday, February 14, 2004 8:16 AM

HOTPOINT


Quote:

Originally posted by Grounded:
I find it hard to believe that there's an explanation that reconciles the fact that gravity tech is standard on 'rough' ships like Serenity and Mal still has to relieve himself in a rusted, fold-out-of-the-wall toilet. It's something like the equivalent of having a laptop in a period drama



Government backed monopolies supressing some areas of technological progress?

Or how about alternatively the society is emerging from a somewhat Luddite stage of hostility to a scientific culture because of the destruction of Earth-That-Was?

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Saturday, February 14, 2004 10:32 AM

JASONZZZ



but why would they need any sort of grav engine on the sound stage at all?


Quote:

Originally posted by Hotpoint:
Quote:

Originally posted by Grounded:
Talking about gravitational manipulation is purely speculative



Except for the fact they clearly have artificial gravity on ships and some kind of inertial reducing apparatus (or equivalent) because the Crazy Ivan didn't tear the ship and crew apart

The speculation is how it works not is it there

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Saturday, February 14, 2004 10:44 AM

HOTPOINT


Quote:

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:

but why would they need any sort of grav engine on the sound stage at all?



Do you know how heavy those cameras are?

Anyhow I for one find it easier to enjoy the first rate characterisations if I don't have to suspend my disbelief at the 'Verse they inhabit



...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Saturday, February 14, 2004 1:27 PM

LTNOWIS


Quote:

The fact that it's there at all is a problem in itself. I find it hard to believe that there's an explanation that reconciles the fact that gravity tech is standard on 'rough' ships like Serenity and Mal still has to relieve himself in a rusted, fold-out-of-the-wall toilet. It's something like the equivalent of having a laptop in a period drama


Artificial gravity, inertia dampeners, etc. are all cheap, basic technologies in this future. We've solved problems like these, but we haven't solved other problems, like a terrestial transport more reliable and cheap than a horse. Think of it this way: 30 years ago, nobody would have thought that reliable pocket calculators would be so cheap. A crappy pocket calculator has just as many functions as an ok one, but the buttons aren't as nice, it doesn't fold up, it's ugly, etc.

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Sunday, February 15, 2004 1:42 AM

GROUNDED


Quote:

Originally posted by LtNOWIS:
Artificial gravity, inertia dampeners, etc. are all cheap, basic technologies in this future. We've solved problems like these, but we haven't solved other problems, like a terrestial transport more reliable and cheap than a horse.



But that doesn't make sense. If high-tech like artificial gravity is cheap then equivalent or lesser tech must have made similar advances. If they've mastered gravity in 500 years then surely to goodness they can build a spaceship that doesn't rust...

Not that I care mind - I'll happily forget all this stuff because the show is so good. But this thread was about trying to explain the science of the show and that just can't be done. I don't think I've ever seen a sci-fi show that is totally scientifically plausible but that's purely because there are outside factors to consider. Sure it might be more realistic to have no artificial gravity but it would be unrealistic as far as filming is concerned for the actors to be hanging around on wires all the time.

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Sunday, February 15, 2004 1:53 AM

HOTPOINT


Quote:

Originally posted by Grounded:
But that doesn't make sense. If high-tech like artificial gravity is cheap then equivalent or lesser tech must have made similar advances. If they've mastered gravity in 500 years then surely to goodness they can build a spaceship that doesn't rust...



Build a ship that doesn't rust and you don't get to sell another one to replace it. I'll give you a real world example, Henry Ford downgraded some of the parts on the Model T because they were too good and never wore out

Many items today are also made with a lifespan so we have to replace them too.

As for the other point how about there is plenty of high-tech in the 'Verse but it's strictly government controlled and corporate monopolies in the Core and Luddites on the Rim stifle innovation in the civilian sector

Quote:

Originally posted by Grounded:
But this thread was about trying to explain the science of the show and that just can't be done



Try harder


...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Sunday, February 15, 2004 8:25 AM

GROUNDED


Quote:

Originally posted by Hotpoint:

Build a ship that doesn't rust and you don't get to sell another one to replace it. I'll give you a real world example, Henry Ford downgraded some of the parts on the Model T because they were too good and never wore out

Many items today are also made with a lifespan so we have to replace them too.

As for the other point how about there is plenty of high-tech in the 'Verse but it's strictly government controlled and corporate monopolies in the Core and Luddites on the Rim stifle innovation in the civilian sector

Try harder



You're certainly determined Hotpoint

The technology curve on the show is just too steep, in my opinion. I recently convinced my mum to start watching FF and, strangely enough, despite being an entirely unscientific person, she said exactly the same thing.

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Sunday, February 15, 2004 8:38 AM

HOTPOINT


Quote:

Originally posted by Grounded:

You're certainly determined Hotpoint



Never give a gorram inch that's my (new) motto

Quote:

Originally posted by Grounded:
The technology curve on the show is just too steep, in my opinion. I recently convinced my mum to start watching FF and, strangely enough, despite being an entirely unscientific person, she said exactly the same thing.



I've spent time in the Third World where you can see basically stone-age technology being used next to computers. I don't see it as that far removed in principle (and we're on one planet)

It's a weird kinda feeling using a mobile phone and a GPS in the back of a horse-drawn buggy in the sahara by the way

...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First

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Sunday, February 15, 2004 2:53 PM

LUNATIKAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Grounded

Regarding nothing but the comment about the steepness of the technology curve, contemporary Earth cultures range from Stone Age cultures to a Tech culture embarking on putting a permanent base on the moon. I don't have any problem with the steepness of the curve. So, if you accept as one of the parameters of the game that the steepness of the technology curve is no impediment to its existence, you get to ask the next fun question, "What other social, psychological, spiritual, financial, material or other factors might be at play here to produce the otherwise irreconcilable juxtapositions of tech of such vastly different levels?"

I find it easy to imagine very wild combinations of factors having mostly to do with some variation of some weirdo colony leader saying "because I say we'll have no cell phones but rocket sleds are okay because I think they're fun!, that's why!" creating a 'verse that is pretty gorram diverse. Anything that can be, has found supporters and IS.

In Heart of Gold wasn't it, the baddie is characterized as holding back the technological/ financial developement of the colony so that he can play cowboy in some sort of fantasy American Wild West?

I'm just trying to keep you guys playing the game. We need your science!

lunatikat - been down so long it looks like left to me . . .

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