GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Objects in Space - Question

POSTED BY: SCHISM
UPDATED: Friday, November 21, 2008 07:55
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Thursday, November 20, 2008 9:52 AM

SCHISM


I have a question.
Maybe it's dumb.
Maybe it's not.

At the beginning of the episode, River is overhearing conversations, and then hearing what she THINKS she hears (such as her brother's "I'd be there if it weren't for you" comment).

Inara's comment was "Tell me. I'm a big girl."


........tell her what?

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 9:57 AM

STARTROOP


I always thought it was for Mal to say "I love you" or "get lost" or "stop being a Companion". She wanted resolution of their relationship.

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 10:02 AM

SCHISM


Ah.
That would make sense.
However all other comments she 'thought' she heard were directed at her, so I figured it meant that there was something River should be telling her.
Cheers!

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 10:06 AM

PLATONIST


...tell her what?

more likely River hearing something from Inara's past. She's looking right at the camera when she says it...more about her "secret" and what she keeps away from Mal, to spare him, rather than what she wants to hear him say.

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 10:26 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


OIS is, IHMO, the greatest single episode of Sci-Fi ever written. As such, I have spent countless days analyzing it.

This subject has been debated for 5 years on this forum, but I will maintain my strong belief that river's visions in the episode are:

Other Peoples Secrets

River is not actually walking through the ship, she is psychically projecting. As she looks to people she hears what they hide in their hearts. Jaynes comment is obvious: "I got stupid, the money was too good" related to his betrayal on Ariel. Simon's also fairly obvious: "I'd be there right now" refering to his thoughts that had he not attempted to save his sister, he'd still have his rewarding career.

In the commentary for OIS (I Highly Highly recommend listeining to it) Joss refers to the crew's statements as being "Things we've seen before and also things we do not yet understand" Mal, Inara, and Books' comments fall into the latter category. What follows are my personal speculations:

Book: "I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not, so where does that put you?" A reference to his days as an alliance opperative, and something horrible he did. Perhaps leading to a desire to attone.

Inara: "I'm a big girl, just tell me" A day she was on Sihnon in front of a doctor, learning something very very bad. Something that drove her away from the guild and into the black.

Mal: "None of it means a damn thing" A strange, mysterous statement that I speculate is related to the Unification War.

Wash and Zoe: River feels their secret love for each other. While it's obvious they are married, in the sequence they think they are alone and are therefore being more intimate in thought and deed than they ever would in public.

The most interesting thing of all is that Kaylee says nothing in her sequence, but rather stares emotionless towards river. The theory behind that subject I like is that Kaylee is a free spirit that wears her emotions on her sleeve and therefore has no secrets at all. (Recall from the film "I ain't had nothing twixt my nethers weren't run on batteries") Because of her emotional heart and subsequent lack of secrets, when River looks at her, she sees a blank slate.



Do not fear me. Our's is a peaceful race and we must live in harmony.

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 10:31 AM

WASHNWEAR


Quote:

Originally posted by Schism:
I have a question.
Maybe it's dumb.
Maybe it's not.

At the beginning of the episode, River is overhearing conversations, and then hearing what she THINKS she hears (such as her brother's "I'd be there if it weren't for you" comment).

Inara's comment was "Tell me. I'm a big girl."

........tell her what?



It's a mighty fine question - one that playfully haunts me for several days every time I watch the episode. It's also a question that's been raised here before, but I can't remember the answer...or if there even was an answer, beyond some folks' educated speculation (and with some questions, that's all the answer there is). Keep checking the thread - maybe one of the Firefly scholars will stop in and address it. In the meantime, for more food for thought on the matter, below is a link to Wikipedia's Words of Wisdom on the subject (tho' it didn't help me much...).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objects_in_Space

ETA BSCM's post (above) appeared while I was composing my post. I think he's hitting the nail pretty gorram squarely on the head. And now I'm having an especially acute attack of remorse over Firefly's demise...


It was like that when we got here!

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 10:35 AM

SCHISM


Oh Wiki, why did I forget you?
:p
Hey, that brought up a good question.
Did she hear what she THOUGHT they really thought?
Or was she actually picking up REAL thoughts that they subconciously tucked away?
I have to say, while watching it, I thought it was her poor self-conciousness getting the better of her...

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 10:36 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Schism:

Or was she actually picking up REAL thoughts that they subconciously tucked away?
B]



That one.


Do not fear me. Our's is a peaceful race and we must live in harmony.

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 10:50 AM

PLATONIST


River picks up real thoughts, she is telepathic, in case you missed the memo.

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 11:19 AM

SCHISM


Well yeah, i knew that from watching the movie (watched it first, unfortunately) but they hadn't clearly defined that in the series yet (later that episode, actually).
So with that in mind, I just assumed she heard what she thought they were thinking based on her fear that they all secretly hated or feared her.

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 12:51 PM

WASHNWEAR


Quote:

Originally posted by Schism:
Well yeah, i knew that from watching the movie (watched it first, unfortunately) but they hadn't clearly defined that in the series yet (later that episode, actually).
So with that in mind, I just assumed she heard what she thought they were thinking based on her fear that they all secretly hated or feared her.



Hey - thanks for bringing it up! Otherwise I'd have likely never read BSCM's explanation, and who knows if I'd have ever thought it through that way myself. I'd got about as far with it as you had, but hadn't even considered the idea of some of these "unheard" remarks relating to things from the characters' pasts.

I've gotta start doing logic puzzles in my spare time or something - my brain's getting flabby!


It was like getting whacked in the forehead by a 2x4 named Serenity when we got here!

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 4:26 PM

FREEBROWNCOAT


BSCM's comments are right on. Secrets is what River was manipulated into reading.

Mal, looking back on the war, the pivotal point in his life, finds the results of the war wanting. All those lives, all those emotions, privations, and he is struggling just to keep one smuggling ship in the black.

Once again, right on!

"She feels everything. She can't not!"

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 4:45 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
OIS is, IHMO, the greatest single episode of Sci-Fi ever written.

I'm right with ya on the same page, BSCM. It's up there with City On The Edge Of Forever (Trek), Demon With A Glass Hand (Outer Limits) & And Jesus Brought A Casserole (Dark Angel), but better'n all of 'em!!! It's so beautiful I can't even believe it ever got made.

Definitely Chrisisall

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 5:57 PM

TRAVELER


And then was River even traveling from room to room and actually seeing the others? After all she just suddenly has one of Jayne's pistols in her hand an we never see her enter his cabin. What we do see is her picking up off the floor of the ship's hold, that is also covered in leaves and branches. So was she also visualising the scenes we are watching? And if she was, did she interpret them accurately? Just like Simon's words were probably his true thoughts, but they did not go so far as to blame River, even though they seem to imply it. We are left with River's interpretations of other's thoughts that are not completed.

This may be what really hurts her. She only gets fragments of peoples thoughts and this creates stress. I can see why she has fits and gets sick on Simon's bed. At least she proves her intelligence buy not getting sick on her own bed. I would be screaming and throwing things to. Then Mal would get angry and the cows would stampede in the ship's small hold and make a mess. Not good.


http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 6:19 PM

PLATONIST


good questions, travelar, I can't answer those, but I have one to add.

Mal and Inara, are having an extremely private conversation about Inara's plans. River is standing right there and they don't even see her, how is that possible? Is she not there? Wouldn't they naturally keep moving, away from her?

And BSCM, I think you got everything right, except Book...maybe law enforcement instead of Alliance Operative.

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 7:03 PM

TRAVELER


Hello Platonist:

I think if FOX had only aired this one episode we would still have this forum. I think more people bring up "Objects in Space" more then any other episode.

And that is an excellent point about Mal and Inara. Why did they not move away or simply split off to return to their private discussion later?

If River was not really there, and only saw them by using her powers, then they would think they were still alone.

Even though everyone looked directly at her when she heard the statements, they never acknowledged her. Not one person said "Hi River," to her. And as soon as they finished their statements they went right back to what ever they were up to before she entered, I use that term loosely, their presence.

My impression is her mind was floating through the ship and her body was elsewhere. Phsyically she was getting Jayne's pistol and loading it. I do not believe Jayne would keep a gun loaded. He is very professional about his weapons and I don't see him leaving a gun loaded. I think River loaded the gun. It even had a round in the chamber. Not good.

In all I like the ending. The way Mal not only worked with River to deal with Jobal, but how he spoke to her as she returned to Serenity. He was welcoming her on board. Not just to enter the ship, but to say you are part of this crew. I actually had tears in my eyes as I watched that scene. I know. I'm being foolish, but that is how I felt.


http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 7:32 PM

PLATONIST




Yeah, definitely agree this was a show defining episode, it's all played out there from Simon's implied blame he's not sure is justified, to Mal's defeat that keeps him from being whole, Jayne's guilt with an explanation, Book's former life he's atoning for, and Inara's life shattering news she keeps hidden from others. All the little skeletons they hold near and dear.

And your theory of River being elsewhere is thought provoking. What was she going to do with the loaded gun?

And, I love the snowsuit scene (cause that’s what I call it, have you ever had to get your kid out of one of those when it’s wet?) with River and Mal. It’s really the first time he smiles at her… so sweet.

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 7:47 PM

TRAVELER


Now I have that image from "Christmas Story" where the younger brother is so bundled up in winter garments by the mother he complains because he can not lower his arms. It is so cute watching the mother trying to push them down and they keep springing back up. They just stick right out like a scarecrow. Well now I know the next film I'll throw in the old VCR.


http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 8:02 PM

PLATONIST


Christmas Story, is that the one where the kid wants a gun from Santa? I vaguely remember it.

How perfect is that for a Firefly Christmas!

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 8:19 PM

TRAVELER


That is the one. One of the funniest Christnas films ever made.

Now that you mention it, the gun is loaded and dangerous. I am sure Jayne probably started his career with a BB rifle. Wasn't Jayne discussing his marksmenship with Book just as River enters the dining room? Something about a bent sight.


http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Thursday, November 20, 2008 8:36 PM

PLATONIST


Yes, Jayne was talking on his celebrated marksmanship, good catch.

I'm not a gun enthusiast, but I come from a family of hunters and gun collectors with lots of brothers. Our family fire evacuation plan always included a rescue the guns and ammo component first before even the family photos. And, yes Dad always started us with a BB rifle, so I hear your connection.

My question is what was she doing in Jayne's bunk?

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Friday, November 21, 2008 6:57 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
I'm right with ya on the same page, BSCM.



Wow! Did we finally just agree on something Chris?

Do not fear me. Our's is a peaceful race and we must live in harmony.

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Friday, November 21, 2008 7:50 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by traveler:
And then was River even traveling from room to room and actually seeing the others? After all she just suddenly has one of Jayne's pistols in her hand an we never see her enter his cabin. What we do see is her picking up off the floor of the ship's hold, that is also covered in leaves and branches. So was she also visualising the scenes we are watching?



Excellent questions. I shall attempt to focus my Firefy lore upon OIS today.

One of the easiest mistakes to make when watching the beginning of OIS is to assume that events are occuring in a linear fashon. Joss has said that OIS is the first attempt to peek inside River's confused and jumbled view of the world. We, the sane logical viewers that we are, see a walking journey through Serenity ending in the cargo hold where a stick becomes a handgun. What does this mean?

The central beauty of OIS orbits around Joss's own experiences of personal revelation in philosophy. He describes his thoughts carefully in the commentary for OIS. The three most important events of OIS are:
1. Early's voice as River wakes: "We're all just floating"
2. Her comment related to the stick: "It's just an object, it doesn't mean what you think"
3. The final sequence of shots as the jack ball hovers then falls to contact the cargo floor...which is connected to the ship...which is connected to the hull...and finally interconnected to the entire cargo vessel, the lifeboat of all 9 souls and itself an object in space.

The intense theme of REALNESS is important to stand in contrast with River's fractal mind, which causes her to live in a bizarre world where the real and the fantastic co-mingle in a fluid tapestry. Actions such as entering a cargo hold full of leaves are as valid to her mind as anything we believe true. OIS helps us better understand other scenes in other episodes, such as Jaynestown where she destroys Book's bible. She returns later and says with regret "I tore these out of your symbol, and they turned into paper" illustrating another fluid event where her fractal mind combined an abstract concept (symbol) with a solid object (bible) to create a lunatic logic that makes perfect sense to her. Then she slowly became more "sane" later and noticed that the abstract "symbol" became something we'd view as real--pages. She feels regret and most likely confusion as she struggles to determine what the philosophical truth of the paper is. The same relationship holds true with the stick/handgun.

Before she wakes in the beginning we hear the jumble of voices of 8 other crew members. This is a common event to her psychic senses since she has become comfortable with these people. What wakes her is Early's voice...a man that does not belong. One could speculate that Early had at that moment dropped into a close pursuit of Serenity and his mind became at that moment close enough for River to sense. Early is the important contrast to River in OIS, something Joss points out with his wonderful musical scores. Where River's theme is a soft mournful string instrument, Early is represented with an ominous oboe. As River senses Early's presence, she wakes. Note again Early's statement "We're all just floating". Early is a bounty hunter-philosopher, with a fractal mind similar to Rivers. I love the idea that he realizes, as a philosopher would, that "we're all just floating" when he considers his own ship behind Serenity. Beautiful.

As she "walks" through the ship psychically, there is no reason to assume she isn't actually doing something else physically. Psychically and Physically: to remarkably similar words meaning such different things. Perhaps her mind took her on a psychic journey we obsere while her body, pre-programed by Blue Sun techs, inflitrated Jayne's bunk to steal a gun. What we DO know, is that her psychic journey occured in a recient manner to her awakening in the cargo hold because all characters are wearing the same things they had on when she "journeyed" and listened to their secrets.

OIS is not the only time we see River read another person. In a cut scene (should NEVER have been cut BTW) from Our Mrs Reynolds, River is having a delusion whilst putting a pillow under her shirt and claiming to be pregnant. It's important that Joss did that because it served as a misdirect to when Saffron next appears and says something nice to River to which River focuses on Saffron and then declares in a loud voice "You're a liar!" The crew thinks River is a lunatic but we, who later see OIS, see that she just expereinced a psychic moment with Saffron, the lying thief. I have wondered to myself to this day, what did Saffron "say" to River at that moment?

OIS is an episode of Science Fiction that requires it's own graduate school academic paper. After all I just wrote I've only scratched at the layers to OIS. It's simply astonishing that Joss Whedon was able to pack so much complexity into 42 minutes. Truly astounding.

Do not fear me. Our's is a peaceful race and we must live in harmony.

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Friday, November 21, 2008 7:55 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:

Wow! Did we finally just agree on something Chris?


Looks like.

Chrisisall

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