Tonight's Angel *spoilers* by SerenityValley

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Tonight's Angel *spoilers*

POSTED BY: SERENITYVALLEY
UPDATED: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 06:11
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VIEWED: 5570
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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 5:10 PM

SERENITYVALLEY

Okay.

Did you see who's going to be in next week's episode?!??!?!?

Select to view spoiler:

Andrew!!!!!!

Also,

Select to view spoiler:

Lots of Lindsey. His vision-having? Not convincing. Doyle's was much more painful. Speaking of Doyle, what's with him taking Doyle's name? I thought Lindsey was going to have a different alias. Has Lindsey met Doyle? I don't remember. It was great how they paralleled the first episode. Lindsey = Doyle. Angel = Spike. That girl in the alley = Tina. So Lindsey and Eve are against the senior partners and against Angel. Who's side are they on, anyway? Gotta love Joss's dream episodes! What was with the bear??

http://www.simple-assault.com/Firefly.htm

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 5:38 AM

STILLSHINY

Gotta say I loved it. This season has so pulled me in. Hats off to David B as well. I have that image of the mail boy in the geeky tie ingrained in mine brain. JOSS now & Forever!!!

“Firefly is the source of probably more joy & pain than anything I’ve done.” - Joss

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 9:53 AM

KURUKAMI

Yeah, weird echoes back to "The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco" -- another superhuman who became more and more irrelevant to important matters as time went on, leaving him in the position of mailboy.

History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it merely shouts "Weren't you listening the first time?!?" and lets fly with a club.

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 2:04 PM

STEVE580

Just saw this ep (Tivo!)...I loved it. It was sweet, how Spike was the hero, and Angel's gang were the bad guys. Man, this show has so many main charactors right now - Angel, Wesley, Gunn, Fred, the Host (forget his name), Spike, Harmony, and now Eve and...damn, forgot his real name...the dude who gets 'visions'. I mean, this show started off with three dudes, now there's three times that. All working for at least three differant factions - Angel and the gang, Spike is alone, and then there fake Doyle and Eve - who aren't on the same side? They can't be. He ruined her plan, did he not?

I just love how Spike and Angel are rival heroes. What a fascinating plot; both trying to help people, through differant means. Spike took Angel's old job...that's so sweet!

Anyways...it was cool.

My favorite ep of the season, though, has gotta be the Wesley dad one. Man, at the end, when

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he shot his dad like that, without hesitation

...that was sweet.
-Steve

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 2:55 PM

LADYJAYNE

Whedon does better with an ensemble cast than just a few people.

The "fake Doyle", btw, is Lindsey MacDonald, former junior partner of Wolfram and Hart. He was in most of the first and second seasons of Angel.

--Kala

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 3:07 PM

KURUKAMI

It would be truly bizarre if the Powers that Be actually DID decide to back another candidate, and "Doyle" actually was having some manner of visions. It already seems clear that he's become some manner of magician, judging by the runed tattoos he's got.

Overall I think that unlikely, though, what with the collaboration between Eve and Lindsey. It still leaves the question of why exactly they're pursuing that course, though... since Lindsey and Angel parted on relatively good terms.

History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it merely shouts "Weren't you listening the first time?!?" and lets fly with a club.

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 3:55 PM

SERENITYVALLEY

Quote:
It would be truly bizarre if the Powers that Be actually DID decide to back another candidate, and "Doyle" actually was having some manner of visions. It already seems clear that he's become some manner of magician, judging by the runed tattoos he's got.

I think it would be cool if Lindsey got visions and it would make sense what with Cordy out of the picture (for now). It's not like she did the Doyle thing and kissed someone before she died..partially 'cause she didn't die. But Lindsey's such a faker. I'm just waiting for Spike to let it slip to Angel "Oh yeah, I met this guy, Doyle, who sees visions." That would freak him out. And then he'd be all confused to see Lindsey.

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Overall I think that unlikely, though, what with the collaboration between Eve and Lindsey. It still leaves the question of why exactly they're pursuing that course, though... since Lindsey and Angel parted on relatively good terms.

Perhaps Lindsey is still mad about the "cops suck" thing. hmm...A grudge can be a powerful thing.

http://www.simple-assault.com/Firefly.htm

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 5:19 PM

STEVE580

Quote:
Originally posted by SerenityValley:
Perhaps Lindsey is still mad about the "cops suck" thing. hmm...A grudge can be a powerful thing.

LOL! That's what I was thinking when Lindsey (that's his name!) first showed up. Because, Angel and Lindsey parted as friends -- well, non-enemies -- so I wonder why Lindsey would now be working against Angel? Is it just because he hates W&H so much, regaurdless of who's running it?

Personally, I really hope that Lindsey's visions are legit, and he really does team up with Spike. I've really like Lindsey's charactor scince he left W&H - the evil hand scene? OMG that was hilarious! "But you didn't have what it takes: an evil hand! But who does, really? Johnson doesn't; Smith doesn't. You guys do know you gave me an evil hand, right? I've been writting 'die, die, die' all over everything. It's crazy!" Then he takes that gun, and fires three shots at his boss... "I just can't control my evil hand." Then he slaps - what was her name - on her ass as he walked out of the room, and scolded his hand...man, I rewound that whole scene like 5 times (Tivo).

Anyways, like I was saying...it'd be sweet if he and Spike team up, and there were two concurrent plot lines in the upcoming eps - Angel&crew, and Spike&Lindsey. They'd be sort-of against eachother, yet on the same side...it'd be awesome.

I just can't control my evil hand!
-Steve

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 5:31 PM

ANGELDOVE

Ok, I don't have season 1 Angel on DVD, yet. So I can't check this myself. I know in the first season when Spike came to town to take back the gem of Omara, he met Doyle. Did he just never know his name? It was just bothering me as far as continuity was concerned.

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 7:14 PM

SPIKEANDJEZEBEL

Lindsey did leave on fairly good terms with Angel, but remember that Lindsey was totally in love with Darla. If he found out that she staked herself to save the baby that Angel impregnated her with, I don't think he'd be too happy.

I wonder if Lindsey would have been affected by the Connor memory wipe...?

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Friday, January 23, 2004 9:13 AM

SERENITYVALLEY

Quote:
the evil hand scene? OMG that was hilarious! "But you didn't have what it takes: an evil hand! But who does, really? Johnson doesn't; Smith doesn't. You guys do know you gave me an evil hand, right? I've been writting 'die, die, die' all over everything. It's crazy!" Then he takes that gun, and fires three shots at his boss... "I just can't control my evil hand." Then he slaps - what was her name - on her ass as he walked out of the room, and scolded his hand...man, I rewound that whole scene like 5 times

Oh definately. "Dead End" is the best Angel episode ever, hands down. Of course, Christian Kane SINGS, but also the "stop it evil hand stop it!" is just crazy. Also I liked the scene where Angel jumps in the window to save Lindsey and they start arguing while that guy is choking.

Quote:
Ok, I don't have season 1 Angel on DVD, yet. So I can't check this myself. I know in the first season when Spike came to town to take back the gem of Omara, he met Doyle. Did he just never know his name? It was just bothering me as far as continuity was concerned.

I was trying to remember that too. I remember that Spike threatened to snap Doyle's spine, but I don't know if they were ever introduced. 'Cause Spike says, "What's with you good guys running in packs? Who's this one?" and then Doyle says "More than meets the eye, blondie." That was pretty much the only real confrontation.

Quote:
I wonder if Lindsey would have been affected by the Connor memory wipe...?

I think Lindsey was gone before Connor was born. Though, what he remembers about Darla, I don't know.

http://www.simple-assault.com/Firefly.htm

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Friday, January 23, 2004 9:37 AM

SPIKEANDJEZEBEL

Lindsey was definitely gone before Connor was born, in fact before anyone knew Darla was pregnant. I wonder, though, if the Connor mindwipe is a global phenomenon, or if it simply affects people who knew Connor.

A similar situation happened when Dawn was created, and characters who were long gone by season 5 of Buffy (such as Faith and Angel) still had memories of her as if she'd always been there.

Lindsey may very well know that Darla is dead, but would he have any idea what the circumstances were that surrounded her death?

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Friday, January 23, 2004 10:07 AM

OKKAY

I'm pretty sure Lindsey is faking the visions. From what I remember from the episode, his exposition scene with Eve states that their plan is to confuse W&H by making it seem like W&H chose the wrong vampire-with-a-soul, by building up Spike and undermining Angel. I don't really get a lot of it (a lot of this season doesn't make sense to me), but I'm pretty sure the visions are fake. It would be very easy for Eve and Lindsey to set up all of his vision scenarios for Spike, and we know that the final one (Spike saving Angel) was definitely a setup.

I don't think Lindsey really turned good when he left. It felt more to me like he was tired of his job at W&H, but not necessarily because he wanted to stop being evil.

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Friday, January 23, 2004 12:18 PM

LADYJAYNE

Yes, "Dead End" is THE best Angel ep ever. I have also watched the "evil hand" scene a million times.

The visions are fake.

Uh, why is everyone so surprised that Lindsey knows about runic magic? He worked for freakin' Wolfram & Hart long enough to become a junior partner and the head of a division! I would be shocked if he DIDN'T have any runic knowledge.

As for Angel & Lindsey's parting, it was barely on civil terms. The only reason things had any semblance of civility was because Angel helped him find out how to stop his evil hand from being evil. One week previously, Lindsey went after him with a baseball bat because Angel had slept with Darla. And remember his wonderful "Why aren't you trying to kill me!?!" line from "Dead End" when Angel shows up and tries to save him?

Lindsey knows all about Connor, too. Eve knows so Lindsey knows. I doubt that went over too well with him.

Lindsey believes that Angel + W&H = World Plunging Into Unspeakable Evil. He does NOT believe that Angel has a leg up on the senior partners. Nuh uh. His last words to Angel before leaving LA were:

"The key to Wolfram & Hart is to never let them make you paly their game. You've gotta make them play yours."

Lindsey was at W&H for probably over a decade. He knows far more about them than Angel ever will. Big huge honkin' alarm bells went off when Angel agreed to become CEO. This is why he is back. He feels he must break the senior partner's "hold" over Angel, which is why I believe Lindsey & Eve were also responsible for the cyborg attack from "Lineage".

And finally, Lindsey MacDonald is the best thing that ever happened to the show. I was heartbroken when he left and fell off my couch with my mouth gaping open when he returned. It was the single best moment of shock-worthy television since Tasha Yar's daughter stepped out of the shadows on ST:TNG.

--Kala

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Friday, January 23, 2004 1:46 PM

STEVE580

Yeah, but it seemed like Lindsey ruined Eve's plan, with that last 'vision'. So, are they really in it together, or does Lindsey have plans of his own?

Yeah, I liked Lindey a lot. I was happy to see he was back; except I was kinda hoping he'd be a 'good guy'. But hey, maybe he will.

I like this season a lot. It's sweet how the whole dynamic of the show shifted, and Angel went from being a nuisance, to the most powerful man in the city, in just one ep.

I had noticed, prior to this ep, that Spike played a very small role in most episodes, comperable to Harmony. I was hoping he'd become a bigger charactor as time went on; and that seems to be happening.
-Steve

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Friday, January 23, 2004 2:03 PM

SERENITYVALLEY

Quote:
Yeah, but it seemed like Lindsey ruined Eve's plan, with that last 'vision'. So, are they really in it together, or does Lindsey have plans of his own?

I think that Eve knew Lindsey was sending Spike to stop the little stingray-bug-thing. I think it was the plan all along. Lindsey's visions are fake. He knew about the bug-thing because him and Eve planned it, not because he had a vision. Whether this friendship will hold up..? They could easily turn on each other.

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Yeah, I liked Lindey a lot. I was happy to see he was back; except I was kinda hoping he'd be a 'good guy'. But hey, maybe he will.

He could accidentally be a good guy too. If W&H is corrupting Angel and Lindsey is trying to pull Angel out of there, then it is helping Angel, even if Lindsey's doing it for the wrong reasons. Those reasons, I still don't know. But then Spike may be doomed.

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And finally, Lindsey MacDonald is the best thing that ever happened to the show. I was heartbroken when he left and fell off my couch with my mouth gaping open when he returned.

Here here! CK 4ever.

http://www.simple-assault.com/Firefly.htm

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Friday, January 23, 2004 2:18 PM

LADYJAYNE

Lindsey *will* turn out to be a "good guy" of sorts. The vision was fake. He and Eve WANT Angel to look useless and ineffective, which is why they set the bug on him *and* had Spike save him at the last minute.

If Angel is ineffective and starts to believe that he's *not* the subject of the Shanshu prophecy, then the senior partners will lose interest in him. They will no longer continue to try and suck his attentions away to the mounting grayness that running W & H has led him into. Instead, they will turn their attentions to Spike.

Here is my theory about how Lindsey wants to see things happen:

1) Wolfram & Hart Senior partners "realize" that Spike is the subject of the prophecy.

2) Senior partners turn attentions to Spike and forget about Angel.

3) Apocalypse ensues

4) Senior partners easily persuade Spike to fight on the side of evil. (Not what *I* think will happen, but Lindsey thinks this will happen) After all, the prophecy says that its up in the air which side the "Vampire with a Soul" ends up on.

5) Angel rises up out of no where and takes senior partners by surprise because he is the "real" hero of the prophecy.

6) Senior partners gasp in surprise and are defeated.

Again, this is NOT how I think the season will go. This is just how *Lindsey* thinks things will go if he sticks to his plan. The man definitely has it in for the senior partners. That I can say with absolute certainty. At this point I'm not sure if he's truly doing the right thing or if his ultimate plan is just to piss them the hell off by ruining their plans for Angel in regards to the Shanshu prophecy. My money would be on the latter, but at this point I can't completely discount the former. Not enough information.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

--Kala

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Sunday, January 25, 2004 12:51 PM

KALATHENA

I watched this again this afternoon. I'm wondering why Christian Kane isn't in the guest star credits. I couldn't make out the post episode Co-starring list so I have no idea if he was on that.

Anyone know?

--Kala

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Sunday, January 25, 2004 2:52 PM

SERENITYVALLEY

You know, I found that weird too. I mean, I know he wasn't in the credits in the first episode this season he was in because it would ruin the surprise, but by now, people know he's there, so I don't know. It is weird.

http://www.simple-assault.com/Firefly.htm

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Sunday, January 25, 2004 5:01 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

As long as Spike is parawelling Angels past, I would love to see Buffy come to town and have Spike belt her and tell her to get lost. Sweet...

" Thats not fair !!!!
I didn't even have a soul when I did that!"

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Sunday, January 25, 2004 5:01 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

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Sunday, January 25, 2004 7:34 PM

STEVE580

LadyJayne - that's well thought out theory! Indeed, it does seem reasonable to assume that this is Lindey's motive.

As for Buffy showing up...I hope she doesn't, and doubt she will. Unless it's super important for one of the remaining BtVS charactors to be used in an Angel plot, I doubt we'll see them again. Because, the last episode, it...put them in place, you know? If they show up on Angel, well, then it wasn't really the end for them.

I'm not sure I said that right...

-Steve

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Wednesday, January 28, 2004 6:11 AM

KALATHENA

Thanks for the vote of confidence on my Lindsey theory, Steve. (I used to be LadyJayne; had to change my id.)

No, Buffy won't be on Angel. Gellar has already said "No thanks".

Was anyone able to look at the end credits with the "Co-starring:" list? It was just too small and too fuzzy on my recording. Maybe Kane was listed there? Still would be odd.

--Kala

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