GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Did Summer's new show just become defunct??

POSTED BY: BRINGITBACK
UPDATED: Monday, March 10, 2008 11:42
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Tuesday, March 4, 2008 1:44 PM

BRINGITBACK


I read yesterday that Terminator 4 has been green lighted with Christian Bale to play John Connor in the future war after D-Day.

Now hang on just a second...

At the end of T3 we find out that D-Day is 'inevitable' and the Terminators mission was to have them survive.

But in the TV show... They go forward a few years because they want to have another crack at killing off skynet. Making the 3rd movie completely defunct.

Now please dont tell me they have just made the 3rd movie defunct only to have the exact same ending???

I also read that the TV show will give links into the fourth movie...

So their mission, which they changed an entire franchise for, is bound for failure?

Did they know this going into production of the show??

I will ofcourse keep watching, because I enjoy the show (not to mention Summer) but does anyone else here see a problem??

Anyone???


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Tuesday, March 4, 2008 2:10 PM

STRANGEBIRD


It does seem a bit heavy handed. But it's Hollywood. If it makes sense it's obviously not coming outta there.

<------<<< ~~~~~~~~~~~~~(*)~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>------>

"When you can't do something smart, do something right." -Jayne quoting Book

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Tuesday, March 4, 2008 2:10 PM

TRAVELER


I try not to mix TV and movies. They go their own way. It is Hollywood and they will change, distort and twist plots to their own desires.

They even mess with the Bible. So they are their own law and we are pawns that either are fortunate enough to see a well crafted film or see something that is a waste of celluloid.

So if the TV show and the movie series don't match it will not be a surprise to me.

We were lucky that Joss was given the task of producing the Serenity movie. Who knows what another team would have done with Mal and his crew.

That does not mean the next Terminator movie will be bad. It may be set at a time before the third movie. Maybe an alternate outcome. But the third movie stands pretty firm as to what happened to the world. The machine wins the first blow but man holds on. That is the premise. I don't know any of the details of this new movie. Will their be time travel again or will we actually see the battle between man and machine after the holocaust. I think that would be a great direction to take it. It is time to defeat this machine and not just keep killing off its cyborg hit men.


http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Tuesday, March 4, 2008 2:26 PM

FREDGIBLET


First off:

Quote:

Originally posted by traveler:
They even mess with the Bible.



So does everyone else, especially the church.

But back to the original post, SCC is not guaranteed continuation but it's not dead (unless I missed an announcement). T4 will probably be unrelated to the TV show, they can certainly do both especially considering the time travel aspect.

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Tuesday, March 4, 2008 2:43 PM

STORYMARK


I don't have a link, since it's been a couple months since I read it, but the head writer on the show is also one of the producers on T4, and he said that though they will make nods to the 3rd (addressing Sarah's cancer) and 4th (assuming they get picked up again) movies, the TV series is a seperate timeline from the post-Cameron(James not Summer)movies.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, March 4, 2008 2:47 PM

MICJWELCH


Yeah, they're calling it an "alternate timeline."



"We may experience some slight turbulence, and then... explode."

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Tuesday, March 4, 2008 2:52 PM

TRAVELER


Quote:

Originally posted by fredgiblet:
First off:

Quote:

Originally posted by traveler:
They even mess with the Bible.



So does everyone else, especially the church.




Have to agree with you on that one.

I was actually thinking what Hollywood did with Soloman. In the movie with Yul Brynner, Hollywood had Soloman fighting a war with Egypt. Never happened. So any book is fair play.
Even remakes are different. I saw the 1950 version of 3:10 to Yuma and the latest one. If it wasn't for the title of the movie I would never had guessed they were related.

I was just over in the "Other Science Fiction" discussion forum. I guess Hollywood really did a number on Starship Troopers. I will have to read these books to see what everyone is talking about. This is just another example of Hollywood doing their own thing. I go to movies more often with an open mind. I have seen to many movies jog away from the original book that I actually expect now.




http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Tuesday, March 4, 2008 3:03 PM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by traveler:
I was just over in the "Other Science Fiction" discussion forum. I guess Hollywood really did a number on Starship Troopers. I will have to read these books to see what everyone is talking about.



Definitely, the book is awesome and way better then the movie.

Quote:

This is just another example of Hollywood doing their own thing. I go to movies more often with an open mind. I have seen to many movies jog away from the original book that I actually expect now.


*cough*V for Vendetta*cough* though in that case I think it's more of a sideways move, different but still really good.

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Tuesday, March 4, 2008 9:00 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


I don't see a conflict, although several here seem to be arguing there is one.
Another offered that T4 and TTSCC are "alternate timelines" - I don't know that to be the case, haven't heard that elsewhere, but it may be what they are doing, however it is not required.

T3 can proclaim what it wants, but the end of that movie is the end of that defined storyline, just as the end of T2 was the end of it's defined storyline, to be left to T3 to pick up where it wants. What happens after T3 is up to the story of the subsequent installments.

T2 follows Terminator. T2 defines how the timeline was changed from the story of Terminator. The ultimate goal of each of the installments is to permanently change the timeline so that Skynet does not take over, and thereby never creates a Terminator, deleting the events we already saw in Terminator.
T3 follows T2. Again the timeline has been changed by the reverse-time travel and the unfolding events, and previous attempts to pre-empt Skynet's empowerment have failed, and the future has again sent back in time a potential answer.
T3 ends with the ascension of Skynet.
TTSCC follows T3, where the future has again sent back in time a potential solution.
T4 takes place after T3 and "before" TTSCC - in sequence. This time period after T3 but before the future sends back Cameron has not been fully explored - and apparenlty T4 will do just that.
T4 is not pre-empting TTSCC, the future as possibly portrayed in T4 must occur in order for TTSCC to occur after they send Cameron (and the others helping Cameron) back in time.

I don't see a conflict. So far.

Each new installment creates a new "future" from now until 20-30 years when another attempt must be made the retro-correct our time (except Terminator-T2, that intervening period didn't seem to change). In T3 Ahnold informed us that John Connor was dead - did he state when John died, or which year he was sent back from? Whatever that time was, from now (or the end of T3) until that time can still be explored without interfering with existing storyline.
However, TTSCC does likely follow the period of exploration available to T4, T5, T6, etc. and therefore it is TTSCC that can pre-empt and make defunct any T4, T5 etc storyline by stating that something did or did not happen in Cameron's past (or the past of her makers, which would be in her files), which is still in the future of the T3 ending. We do not know what future TTSCC holds, and T4 is not likely to explore the future of TTSCC, but the future of the T3 ending, which eventually will sent back in time Cameron. Has TTSCC stated what year in the future Cameron was sent back from?

Does that help? Or is further explaination needed?

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Tuesday, March 4, 2008 9:41 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by traveler:
Quote:

Originally posted by fredgiblet:
First off:

Quote:

Originally posted by traveler:
They even mess with the Bible.



So does everyone else, especially the church.






This is just another example of Hollywood doing their own thing. I go to movies more often with an open mind. I have seen to many movies jog away from the original book that I actually expect now.




I actually thought they did a fairly good job with Shooter last year. Although 2 decades too late, they were fairly true to the excellent and ripe-for-film book Point of Impact. Because of the time delay and adaptation, they probably won't be able to continue with the rest of the series, though.

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Wednesday, March 5, 2008 12:13 AM

BADKARMA00


On the bright side, maybe Cameron will be in T4, and Summer may get more big screen time.

I know the only way to guarantee that I pay $$$$ to see it on the big screen is to put Summer in there.

But, you know, I looooovee Summer

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Wednesday, March 5, 2008 12:31 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


If it's during the early versions of the terminators, they wouldn't have dermal shells yet - they wouldn't need to have them until they need to send one back in time or for infiltration of the remaining human groups.

But, the Cameron model would likely be based upon the image of a real person, likely one of rebel honor - so Summer could play that role, the human champion of the Resistance, who the Cameron model was made to look like. Although Kate Brewster is who he marries, maybe the Cameron image was used because it was known John would find her attractive, because he did in the future?

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Wednesday, March 5, 2008 2:28 AM

FLATTOP


Wild speculation here but:
What if Cameron was(will be?) John & Kates daughter in the future? Their daughter dies, John & Co. capture a T-factory & John in effect 'commissions' a custom one-off of his favorite child with a modified neural network to make her capable of more humanity than any other T model. Sends her (or perhaps one of her) back in time to protect his younger self. Young John (who by TTSCC) already has met/liked Kate, sees enough of her in Cameron to get him interested but enough of himself to make 'sister' a convincing cover...

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Wednesday, March 5, 2008 2:45 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Despite popular opinion, and that of most at FFF, I really liked Terminator 3. I don't see any problem with how SCC is handling the storyline...in fact they've gone off on plotlines I find quite fascinating. Christian Bale should be able to do a great job as John Connor. I wonder if Claire Danes will reprise her role as the future Mrs. Connor however. Also, you really cannot quantify time travel effects to any logical single conclusion. In the first place they have never really explained how the device actually works, and like almost all time travel presentations they fail to consider the most basic element to it...that of objects in space travelling at great speeds. The Earth and everything on it orbits the sun, and the entire solar system orbits the galactic center....so if you time travel 20 years into the past, you also need a method to travel hundreds of millions of miles to "capture" Earth...'cause it 'aint where it used to be ...it's far far away.

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Wednesday, March 5, 2008 7:11 AM

DIGIFICWRITER


Aside from some small 'shared elements', T3 and TSCC have no correlation to one another. That should've been made pretty obvious by A) Judgment Day - according to TSCC - occuring in April of 2011 (T3's Judgment Day occurred in 2004) and B) the fact that, in the pilot, the characters jumped to the year 2007 (the show's internal timeline has now progressed to February 2008 as of last Monday's finale).

Check out the continuing adventures of the Big Damn Heroes of Joss Whedon's Firefly in [url= http://www.stillflying.net]Virtual Firefly: Here's How It Might Have Been[/url]

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Wednesday, March 5, 2008 7:27 AM

FIDSAH


You know, if you listen to the opening monologue, you gain some solid insight into how this story is being written.

"In the future, my son will lead mankind in a war on SkyNet, the computer system programmed to destory the world.

"It has sent machines back through time.

"Some to kill him.

"One to protect him."

So according to the show, SkyNet itself sent Cameron back to protect John Connor.

Now, I may not be a super intelligent computer and all, but I think it's pretty stupid to send a robot back to protect Connor at the same time I'm trying to kill him.

Add to that the many gaping holes in the story, such as decapitated robots chilling around in a trashed bank vault for ten years without being found, and I see this whole series as a huge gaping disappointment to Terminator fans.

Pretty much everyone I know who watches it says the same thing.

"Well, it's got Summer Glau in it."

I don't think that's a good enough excuse, frankly.

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Wednesday, March 5, 2008 8:38 AM

TANKOBITE


Yeah, I don't understand why the voice over says that, because I'm pretty sure that in the pilot Summer's character says that she was sent back by John in the future. So I don't really know what that deal is.

-----------------------------------------------------------
There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun;
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.

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Wednesday, March 5, 2008 8:49 AM

FREDGIBLET


My vote? Crappy QC.

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Wednesday, March 5, 2008 9:14 AM

STORYMARK


For those who don't see how the show is an alternate timeline from the movies: In the movies, though Judgement Day was delayed, it did happen on-screen in T3 in 2004 , and that date has now passed, both in real time and on the series.

And further, I did find some interviews with showrunner Josh Freidman as well as some cast members, all saying that the show follows T2, but is a seperate timeline from T3.

http://www.moviejungle.com/Interviews/SConnorLenaHeadeyJamesMiddleton/
default.asp


http://www.whedon.info/Summer-Glau-Sarah-Connor,22645.html

http://www.moviejungle.com/Interviews/SConnorLenaHeadeyJamesMiddleton/
default.asp


http://blog.zap2it.com/frominsidethebox/2008/03/interview-josh.html

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, March 5, 2008 9:39 AM

FREDGIBLET


I was gonna point that out, while certain parts of the T3 timeline are referenced (Sarah dying) there has IIRC never been any direct connections between T3 and SCC and everything I've heard from the beginning has always said that SCC comes from T2 and ignores T3.

Perhaps this will be the fork, T4 will continue the T3 timeline and SCC, SCC: The Next Iteration, SCC: Explorer, SCC: Deep Sea Three and SCC: The Prequel will continue an alternate T2 timeline.

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Wednesday, March 5, 2008 10:34 AM

CYBERSNARK


Yeah, TSCC is a separate timeline. So say Zack and Ash.

And I think the "Skynet sent Cameron" thing is a Clue. Cameron obviously has her own agenda; it's possible that she actually comes from a "post-future future" --one after humanity has been crushed. I think that Cameron's job is to be a third faction in the Connor/Skynet war. She could lead to the creation of a Skynet that can coexist with humanity.

Quote:

Originally posted by fredgiblet:
Quote:

Originally posted by traveler:
I was just over in the "Other Science Fiction" discussion forum. I guess Hollywood really did a number on Starship Troopers. I will have to read these books to see what everyone is talking about.



Definitely, the book is awesome and way better then the movie.


But still not as good as Roughnecks.

"Live forever, apes."

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Wednesday, March 5, 2008 11:00 AM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

I think that Cameron's job is to be a third faction in the Connor/Skynet war. She could lead to the creation of a Skynet that can coexist with humanity.


Very interesting idea, would certainly be cool to see how that pans out, but I still think the voiceover is just crappy QC.

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Wednesday, March 5, 2008 11:10 AM

FREELANCERTEX


Ew, is the movie industry REALLY that desperate?


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Wednesday, March 5, 2008 2:00 PM

TRAVELER


Quote:

Originally posted by freelancertex:
Ew, is the movie industry REALLY that desperate?



Did you see the "300"? If they can put a seven foot tall Xerxes on the screen then they will do anything they like. They are really reaching these days.


http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Wednesday, March 5, 2008 2:20 PM

THEMACROPROSOPUS

Hey, look; Steve the Pirate.


Technically, every mission in the entire Terminator...set of timelines has been bound for failure. Simply given the fact that T2 and 3 happened, we see that the future was merely moved, and not changed.

Thusly, don't be surprised if "The Sarah Connor Chronicles", as we see them, now, end with Sarah succumbing to highly agressive cancer.


So, I guess...T4 could still be based in the same timeline as SCC. I dunno.

>

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Wednesday, March 5, 2008 2:46 PM

FREELANCERTEX


Quote:

Originally posted by Traveler: Did you see the "300"? If they can put a seven foot tall Xerxes on the screen then they will do anything they like. They are really reaching these days.

Hey, 300 was bad ass, and Xerxes was supposed to be inhumanly tall cuz he was a "god" king, but the Terminator movies just keep doing the same thing over. and over. and over. Kill terminator. FAILED. kill terminator. FAILED. kill terminator. FAILED. @_@ *keels over and dies* please, stop feeding me the same story over and over, it insults my intelligence. Those films got old after T2, and T3 just plain sucked. You know the movie industry is getting desperate when they start making sequels to everything that's already been made. It's just sad.


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Wednesday, March 5, 2008 2:51 PM

FEARTHEMULLET


Quote:

Originally posted by freelancertex:
Quote:

You know the movie industry is getting desperate when they start making sequels to everything that's already been made. It's just sad.




The same thing can be seen in the music business. Bands remaking old classics. They sell because the origionals were so good you could distort them and alter them and the message still gets through.

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Wednesday, March 5, 2008 4:01 PM

FARFLY


I like T:TSCC, it has interesting characters, has enough action without having an explosion every other scene, and it's not another gorram reality show. Having Summer Glau in it is just icing on the cake. Lena, Thomas and Brian are starting to grow on me. I'm hoping for a second season at least.

Although I like sci-fi, some shows just didn't interest me, mostly because I couldn't find any characters I liked. Loved Firefly, TOS and TNG, hated Andromeda, BSG, Deep Space Nine, and Voyager.

Seems like folks could just watch and enjoy sci-fi without picking it to death about what happened in the movie, what's gonna happen in the next movie or why aren't all the thousands of details we knew about the previous Terminator stories exactly the same. Starts sounding like Andrew and Jonathan arguing about flawed Death Star designs.

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Wednesday, March 5, 2008 5:36 PM

FREELANCERTEX


music is one thing, and some remakes of songs don't sound anywhere NEAR as good as the originals, though I'll admit I like a SELECT few *is not a bob segar or beatles fan, but is a metallica and aerosmith fan*
movies aren't the same. so what if it gets the message across if all it does is repeat the same thing the last prequel said only shittier? thats what the T movies did. and the shrek sequels. and some other sequels i cant think of right now. all they are is a desperate attempt at keeping the characters on the screen, even if it means doing a horrible job. that, and there isn't ANYTHING new out there that they HAVEN'T done thats worth doing. @_@ *keels over and dies again*


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Wednesday, March 5, 2008 7:46 PM

RICKKER


I hate temporal mechanics makes my head hurt. When you take Sara and John in the pilot and jump to the future, well he wasn't there for t3, he was assumed dead. The timeline problems been around since the first movie, if they stopped it from happening John would never have been born. Take that with time travel things change. Sit back let loose with your suspention of disbelief and enjoy the ride.

PS if your not watching please WATCH JERICHO, its awsome and has a Fireflyish history, last nights 3/4/8 episode was one of telivisions best this year in my humble opinion.

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Wednesday, March 5, 2008 7:59 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


The suggestion of Cameron being based on John's daughter seems creepy in a pedo way. You sent back your daughter's image figuring she'll be attractive to you when you were a teenager with raging hormones? kinda eeeww. Not implausible, tho. The timeline following T3 and before TTSCC has the future John and Kate - no certainty that John has died in this timeline. John is sending back a team where the plan is to jump him past the Skynet ascention, so he knows he will not meet Kate again, ending the Kate&John bloodline, including their Cameron (as well as the line of Kyle Reese). Sending back the image of Cameron will be the only way this union will be visible (represented) in all future timelines.

For those links to interviews, link 1 and 3 seem the same. I read them all, and don't see any conflict with all of the installmaents being consistent in story. Most of those seem to be prior to the pilot, when they were trying to explain the show without revealing too much spoiler, and in a way people could understand. Technically, saying TTSCC is a seperate timeline from T3 is the same as saying each sucessive installment is a seperate timel;ine from the previous installments. Really, if T2 was already an existing timeline in the future that sent back Kyle Reese, then they would have already fixed that problem the first time. If the T3 timeline was already existing in the future that sent back the terminators in T1 and T2, then they would have already fixed the T3 problem then. None of that happened because the subsequent timelines resulting from the last installment have to have the conclusions found in the future, and then the solution for the newset installment starts a newer "alternate" timeline - that is the goal of EACH and EVERY installment - to create an "alternate" timeline, with the hopefull result being Skynet doesn't score Judgement Day.
I don't see a conflict between T3, TTSCC, or what T4, T5, T6 could be.

Regarding the date of Judgement Day, each revision of the timeline (changed by the sending back of terminators) has included Judgement Day being altered with the new timeline. The original Judgment day was something like 1996 or 1997, right? T2 also had that. T2 changed it to 2004, which is the history that T3 knew and also became. TTSCC apparently has 2011.

Quote:

Originally posted by Fidsah:
You know, if you listen to the opening monologue, you gain some solid insight into how this story is being written.

"In the future, my son will lead mankind in a war on SkyNet, the computer system programmed to destory the world.

"It has sent machines back through time.

"Some to kill him.

"One to protect him."

So according to the show, SkyNet itself sent Cameron back to protect John Connor.




That's goofy. The pre-edited version may have said something like "Skynet created a retro-time machine, which has sent machines back through time."
"Some to kill him.
"One to protect him."

Or maybe they have something else going on.

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Wednesday, March 5, 2008 8:52 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

In the first place they have never really explained how the device actually works, and like almost all time travel presentations they fail to consider the most basic element to it...that of objects in space travelling at great speeds. The Earth and everything on it orbits the sun, and the entire solar system orbits the galactic center....so if you time travel 20 years into the past, you also need a method to travel hundreds of millions of miles to "capture" Earth...'cause it 'aint where it used to be ...it's far far away.



Thanks for spelling this out because I've been too lazy to do so. This is the best explanation of why the effects of "The Time Machine" are suspect.
However, have you considered the factor of Gravity? The space-time field is greatly effected by gravity, check Einstein's works. If Time and Gravity are interdependant, an object (person) within Earth's Gravity field could be kept within Earth's Time and Gravity parameters while travelling back and forward in Earth's Time periods. This would help keep one with Earth's position in orbit around the Sun, and also with Earth as our Galaxy moves through the Universe. But rotating with the Earth, likely not. On
Earth, our Gravity is counteracted by centrifugal force. The suspension of centrifugal force due to lack of the object (person) spinning around would free up the Gravity to balance the Time travel (warping/shifting of Time). This would suggest the object would be swallowed by the mountain ranges as the World Turns underfoot, and destinating times and locations would need careful calculation. But this takes care of the larger space concern of travelling Galaxies and the speed of Earth through the Universe.

Outside of a decent Gravity, tho, might be a different matter. Consider a spaceship leaves the Gravity fields of Earth and even the Sun. Time travelling would leave them in likely another solar system. Then they reverse time travel while in the Gravity field of that system - thus they are back at the same time thay left, but are now far, far from where they started. In, Effect, Time Warp Space Travel. Eh?

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Thursday, March 6, 2008 2:49 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

In the first place they have never really explained how the device actually works, and like almost all time travel presentations they fail to consider the most basic element to it...that of objects in space travelling at great speeds. The Earth and everything on it orbits the sun, and the entire solar system orbits the galactic center....so if you time travel 20 years into the past, you also need a method to travel hundreds of millions of miles to "capture" Earth...'cause it 'aint where it used to be ...it's far far away.



Thanks for spelling this out because I've been too lazy to do so. This is the best explanation of why the effects of "The Time Machine" are suspect.
However, have you considered the factor of Gravity? The space-time field is greatly effected by gravity, check Einstein's works. If Time and Gravity are interdependant, an object (person) within Earth's Gravity field could be kept within Earth's Time and Gravity parameters while travelling back and forward in Earth's Time periods. This would help keep one with Earth's position in orbit around the Sun, and also with Earth as our Galaxy moves through the Universe. But rotating with the Earth, likely not. On
Earth, our Gravity is counteracted by centrifugal force. The suspension of centrifugal force due to lack of the object (person) spinning around would free up the Gravity to balance the Time travel (warping/shifting of Time). This would suggest the object would be swallowed by the mountain ranges as the World Turns underfoot, and destinating times and locations would need careful calculation. But this takes care of the larger space concern of travelling Galaxies and the speed of Earth through the Universe.

Outside of a decent Gravity, tho, might be a different matter. Consider a spaceship leaves the Gravity fields of Earth and even the Sun. Time travelling would leave them in likely another solar system. Then they reverse time travel while in the Gravity field of that system - thus they are back at the same time thay left, but are now far, far from where they started. In, Effect, Time Warp Space Travel. Eh?


The space-travel conundrum has always bothered me about almost all time travel movies. At least in Time After Time they showed the time traveller ending up in San Francisco after beginning his voyage in London...I don't know if that is "scientifically" correct, but it was a nice touch nonetheless. Your "gravity" theory is interesting and compelling. It certainly would help rationalize all the other time travel movies like the 2 Time Machine movies, where the machine sat still in the same place as events in the past or future unfolded before the traveller's eyes. It kinda reminds me of Dune's folding space, travelling without moving.







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Thursday, March 6, 2008 6:01 AM

EARLYWARNING


Cameron is obviously Data's daughter sent back by the Federation Time Corps to make sure mankind attempts to destroy itself, meets the Vulcans and ultimately gives birth to the Federation.

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Thursday, March 6, 2008 8:52 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Earlywarning:
Cameron is obviously Data's daughter sent back by the Federation Time Corps to make sure mankind attempts to destroy itself, meets the Vulcans and ultimately gives birth to the Federation.


I thought Doktor Who put an end to that nonsense.

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Thursday, March 6, 2008 9:09 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

In the first place they have never really explained how the device actually works, and like almost all time travel presentations they fail to consider the most basic element to it...that of objects in space travelling at great speeds. The Earth and everything on it orbits the sun, and the entire solar system orbits the galactic center....so if you time travel 20 years into the past, you also need a method to travel hundreds of millions of miles to "capture" Earth...'cause it 'aint where it used to be ...it's far far away.



Thanks for spelling this out because I've been too lazy to do so. This is the best explanation of why the effects of "The Time Machine" are suspect.
However, have you considered the factor of Gravity? The space-time field is greatly effected by gravity, check Einstein's works. If Time and Gravity are interdependant, an object (person) within Earth's Gravity field could be kept within Earth's Time and Gravity parameters while travelling back and forward in Earth's Time periods. This would help keep one with Earth's position in orbit around the Sun, and also with Earth as our Galaxy moves through the Universe. But rotating with the Earth, likely not. On
Earth, our Gravity is counteracted by centrifugal force. The suspension of centrifugal force due to lack of the object (person) spinning around would free up the Gravity to balance the Time travel (warping/shifting of Time). This would suggest the object would be swallowed by the mountain ranges as the World Turns underfoot, and destinating times and locations would need careful calculation. But this takes care of the larger space concern of travelling Galaxies and the speed of Earth through the Universe.

Outside of a decent Gravity, tho, might be a different matter. Consider a spaceship leaves the Gravity fields of Earth and even the Sun. Time travelling would leave them in likely another solar system. Then they reverse time travel while in the Gravity field of that system - thus they are back at the same time thay left, but are now far, far from where they started. In, Effect, Time Warp Space Travel. Eh?


The space-travel conundrum has always bothered me about almost all time travel movies. At least in Time After Time they showed the time traveller ending up in San Francisco after beginning his voyage in London...I don't know if that is "scientifically" correct, but it was a nice touch nonetheless. Your "gravity" theory is interesting and compelling. It certainly would help rationalize all the other time travel movies like the 2 Time Machine movies, where the machine sat still in the same place as events in the past or future unfolded before the traveller's eyes. It kinda reminds me of Dune's folding space, travelling without moving.



Have you also seen The Prestige?

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Friday, March 7, 2008 1:12 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Technically, saying TTSCC is a seperate timeline from T3 is the same as saying each sucessive installment is a seperate timel;ine from the previous installments. Really, if T2 was already an existing timeline in the future that sent back Kyle Reese, then they would have already fixed that problem the first time. If the T3 timeline was already existing in the future that sent back the terminators in T1 and T2, then they would have already fixed the T3 problem then. None of that happened because the subsequent timelines resulting from the last installment have to have the conclusions found in the future, and then the solution for the newset installment starts a newer "alternate" timeline - that is the goal of EACH and EVERY installment - to create an "alternate" timeline, with the hopefull result being Skynet doesn't score Judgement Day.
I don't see a conflict between T3, TTSCC, or what T4, T5, T6 could be.




Either you are really committed to thinking it all gels, or you don't get it. Yeah, some of the quotes were veiled, but the show hadn't started, and they were trying not to let things slip.

Here's the thing: In the SCC timeline, the T3 Judgement Day in 2004 didn't happen. Cameron clearly states that Judgement Day was in 2011 - thus, different timeline.

T4 is following after the events in T3. Judgement day has happened, in 2004, as presented in the movie.

And yes, the date of Judgement day changed in T3 from T2 - but that was the pointmof the story - and Judgement day never happened in the present timeline in T1 or T2. It was still in the future, and thus, mutable. In T3, it was no longer a possibility - it happened. And SCC takes place after that, with the world still intact.

I think this quote from Friedman in the IGN interview says it all (I thought I had included it in the original post, but missed it):

Quote:

"We’re gonna go off on our own. I think the thing about T3 is, obviously there was just no Sarah Connor and that’s something the fans were never happy with. I don’t even think the people who made T3 were happy with that. It just wasn’t a choice of theirs. You know, Linda Hamilton was going through some things and didn’t want to be a part of it. They had a script at one point I know; there was a T3 that had Sarah in it. I’ve never read it. I don’t know anything about it. But I know that they did and they wanted to do that. They wanted it to be kind of her trilogy, and it never could be. So I think that my feeling was this TV series to me sort of serves as the third act to that trilogy - what could have happened had we followed that after T2. So I almost think of this as T3. To me it takes the place of T3. But also I think that sort of in the spirit of Terminator, it’s an alternate timeline. I know a lot of people get very worked up about the continuity and the canon and all that stuff. What I try to do is stay very, very true to the first two movies and then sort of take it from there. But always remain true to the spirit of everyone’s intent and again, take some time with this woman and explore what maybe would have happened."

http://tv.ign.com/articles/798/798086p1.html

He slags off T3 several times, says clearly that he is only following 1&2, calls his show a replacement for T3, and stright-up says it's an alternate timeline. What more proof does anyone need?

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Sunday, March 9, 2008 10:33 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Technically, saying TTSCC is a seperate timeline from T3 is the same as saying each sucessive installment is a seperate timel;ine from the previous installments. Really, if T2 was already an existing timeline in the future that sent back Kyle Reese, then they would have already fixed that problem the first time. If the T3 timeline was already existing in the future that sent back the terminators in T1 and T2, then they would have already fixed the T3 problem then. None of that happened because the subsequent timelines resulting from the last installment have to have the conclusions found in the future, and then the solution for the newset installment starts a newer "alternate" timeline - that is the goal of EACH and EVERY installment - to create an "alternate" timeline, with the hopefull result being Skynet doesn't score Judgement Day.
I don't see a conflict between T3, TTSCC, or what T4, T5, T6 could be.




Either you are really committed to thinking it all gels, or you don't get it. Yeah, some of the quotes were veiled, but the show hadn't started, and they were trying not to let things slip.

Here's the thing: In the SCC timeline, the T3 Judgement Day in 2004 didn't happen. Cameron clearly states that Judgement Day was in 2011 - thus, different timeline.

T4 is following after the events in T3. Judgement day has happened, in 2004, as presented in the movie.

And yes, the date of Judgement day changed in T3 from T2 - but that was the pointmof the story - and Judgement day never happened in the present timeline in T1 or T2. It was still in the future, and thus, mutable. In T3, it was no longer a possibility - it happened. And SCC takes place after that, with the world still intact.

I think this quote from Friedman in the IGN interview says it all (I thought I had included it in the original post, but missed it):

Quote:

"We’re gonna go off on our own. I think the thing about T3 is, obviously there was just no Sarah Connor and that’s something the fans were never happy with. I don’t even think the people who made T3 were happy with that. It just wasn’t a choice of theirs. You know, Linda Hamilton was going through some things and didn’t want to be a part of it. They had a script at one point I know; there was a T3 that had Sarah in it. I’ve never read it. I don’t know anything about it. But I know that they did and they wanted to do that. They wanted it to be kind of her trilogy, and it never could be. So I think that my feeling was this TV series to me sort of serves as the third act to that trilogy - what could have happened had we followed that after T2. So I almost think of this as T3. To me it takes the place of T3. But also I think that sort of in the spirit of Terminator, it’s an alternate timeline. I know a lot of people get very worked up about the continuity and the canon and all that stuff. What I try to do is stay very, very true to the first two movies and then sort of take it from there. But always remain true to the spirit of everyone’s intent and again, take some time with this woman and explore what maybe would have happened."

http://tv.ign.com/articles/798/798086p1.html

He slags off T3 several times, says clearly that he is only following 1&2, calls his show a replacement for T3, and stright-up says it's an alternate timeline. What more proof does anyone need?

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."



That link is more helpful.
You may believe whatever you choose to. It's not my job to explain or convince you. If you REALLY think TTSCC has a timeline that meshes with T1 & T2 but does not mesh with T3 or T4, then maybe you are really committed to thinking they don't all gel, or you don't get it.
T1 states Judgement Day is August 1997. Terminators and the rise of Skynet is not possible until a Terminator is introduced in 1984, providing the technological sample (from 2029) to reverse engineer from. It is it's own paradoxical seed.
T2 also states Judgement Day is 1997.

These are the 2 references you are holding, to the exclusion of T3. They both state JD is 1997.
Now, you say TTSCC adheres too T1 and T2. However, lo and behold, now we have Sarah and John in 1999, but JD has not occurred in 1997 as already established in T1 and T2. And now the new JD is 2011.

TTSCC is no more following T1 and T2 to the exclusion of T3 than it is following all 3 T's. In fact, it is more accurately following T3 as well as 1&2 than not following T3.
It is T3 which establishes the timeline in 2003/4 which TTSCC needs to jump past in the Pilot Episode. TTSCC is ignoring the timeline specified in T1 and T2 and adhering to the T3 timeline.
TTSCC adheres to the 2003/4 timeline specified in T3 but never implied in T1 or T2, and ignores the 1997 timeline clearly stated in T1 and T2 but addressed in T3.

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Monday, March 10, 2008 7:44 AM

STORYMARK


I still don't see how you can think it's all the same timeline when the creator of the show has stated, unambiguously, that it is a seperate timeline, but whatever.....

As for changes between the movies, the thing you are missing is that while details changed concerning Judgement day and the date - those changes were made to events in the futre - things that had not happened yet. What had already past was never altered.

TSCC does diverge from what has happened in the past, effectively making the events of T3 impossible (unless Judgement Day happened, and the people of LA in TSCC didn't notice). That is where the timeline diverges. Cameron didn't say JD happens in 2004, so they have to jump past it. She stated from the first that it happens in 2011. It's not adhering to the T3 timeline - it eradicated it.


"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, March 10, 2008 11:09 AM

CYBERSNARK


Also (and correct me if I'm wrong, 'cause it's been so long since I've seen it), doesn't our knowledge of "the T2 timeline" come from the beginning of T2, via Uncle Bob? I.e., before the events of the movie (Dyson's death, the Cyberdyne shutdown, the destruction of the Cold Unfeeling Robot Hand, etc)?

That timeline could easily have been rendered null within T2 itself.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Monday, March 10, 2008 11:42 AM

FREDGIBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by Cybersnark:
That timeline could easily have been rendered null within T2 itself.



That was the whole point of T2, from the moment Sarah has the nightmare the movie is focused on invalidating the timeline.

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