Would you say River is the soul of the ship? by PhyreLight

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Would you say River is the soul of the ship?

POSTED BY: PHYRELIGHT
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 8, 2008 04:54
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Tuesday, January 8, 2008 4:54 AM

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Originally posted by christhecynic:

You lost me at the last sentence. I admit that I have not studied psychology all that much, but in what I have come across I have never heard anyone make that kind of a claim.

I'll freely admit here, that I'm arguing purely on a pop-psychology understanding of "The Subconscious" (thunder-lightning) as generally portrayed on tv, as it's the level I suppose River would be presented and interpreted, were that the case. (This being tv of a great quality but not necessarily great scientific value. See: reader, terraforming, little girls impossibly beating up dozens of Reavers, etc.)

This is, obviously, ignoring the real science of it. I was not trying to say anything about the subconscious as psychologists may see it.

Do I need to feel really really bad or just really bad for not saying so upfront?

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There's an obvious counter example right in this thread where someone posted, "Jane doesn't like Sally, finds her bitchy and superior and annoying. (Truth: Sally's always talking about her experiences in college and Jane didn't go to college and feels insecure over it.)"

To me that seems very believable, I don't see any reason that the parenthetical couldn't describe Jane's subconscious reason for feeling as she does. Assuming you don't find it unrealistic either (and if you do find it unrealistic tell me) I'd like to use it as an example.

No no, it's fine.

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Jane consciously dislikes Sally finding her bitchy and superior and annoying, what difference does it make to Jane or Sally if that is because of insecurities over college or because Sally subconsciously reminds Jane of someone else, or even that Jane's subconscious made the determination that Sally was those things?

It does make a difference because were Sally to really examine her feelings for Jane, she would have to aknowledge that they are a projection - and a developed person would stop projecting or try to.

Her subcobscious reason would, therefor, be the only thing upholding that effect of annoyance - and the effect should disappear once revealed.

I have a hard time finding a similar analogy for River working that way on the crew as a whole - or even within the context of the ship, aside from the overly simple aspect of her knowing things the others don't.

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In every case you'd have the same situation facing Jane and Sally both, since Jane is unaware of her reasoning it isn't going to effect how she decides to deal with not liking Sally.

Yes, but the inconsistencies between Jane's behavior and Sally's reaction to it could or would become apparent (to others), drawing attention to the existence of a subconscious reason.
It migh not, but in that case it'd be entirely irrelevant to the onlooker (i.e., us who we are contemplating them.) If the subconscious did not manifest itself, we would have no reason to consider it to exist, so River's role as such would only exist in its revealed effect on the crew. Which.. I don't see anywhere.

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Because, I do not think that those things apply to River.

I should probably point out, again, that I don't really feel either way about the idea of River being the subconscious, I just disagree with your reason for refuting it. That's why there's a lack of, "No, look at what she does in ____, she's clearly the subconscious," in my posts.

May I ask if you have your own theory of refuting that idea? I'm just curious.

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I agree with you that River has information not available to the rest of the crew, for obvious reasons, however no one said, to my knowledge, that she is the subconscious of the crew members. Just as no one has said, to my knowledge, that Kaylee is the hope inside of Jayne. Kaylee doesn't necessarily know what Jayne hopes for, Kaylee probably doesn't want to know what Jayne hopes for.

Since I don't operate a crew-focus myself (rather, on a Mal-focus) I can only guess that the phrase "heart of the ship" for Kaylee means she is the glue holding the crew together, not the biological blood-pump of the mechanical ship, so "subconscious of the ship" would be crew-focused, too, having to do with hidden motivations, unaknowledged feelings, etc of the crew as a whole, as a net of interaction, power statuses and affection.
None of which River really comes into "abnormal" contact with before, "Objects in Space".

If there are other interpretations of that term, I'm more than glad to be corrected.

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When taking the crew as a whole River can never have more information than that whole, because she is a part of that whole, and in that case I'm not sure I see your reasoning.

But that is, sort of, my reasoning. If she is the subconscious of the whole, their summed up information should be her primary focus. It is not. Not even close. Her own secret information is, and it's not related to any of them, nor does it directly affect them.

It also doesn't make sense that River would be added to the ship so late on, if she represents something affecting them all on such a base level.

And if she in her role of the SUBconscious is not supposed to directly affect them because we do not know oue own subconscious reasons, then what is the point of her being it?

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Her reasons for acting the way she does are generally irrelevant to how her actions affect the crew - how the crew reacts to her.

I think that, outside of therapy and deep introspection, this is true of most people's subconsciouses.

But as I said, in that case, what would be point be of River being it, if her subconscious role has zero direct connection to the crew it focuses on? You could say that she's the crew's benign, undiagnosed skin cancer and it would be just as meaningful.

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She identifies Saffron as a thief. The crew have no reason to know that outside of what River says. It's not a subconscious piece of knowledge they deny, more like a random newsfeed. And they entirely ignore her, rightfully.

Minor nitpick: No they don't.

They assume, incorrectly, that she was referring to something else Saffron stole, not the ship as a whole.

True. They ignore, though, the deeper meaning of her warning. Still applies.

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If you consider her actions as being analogous to the times when the conscious and the subconscious interact I'd say that that is true of an person's subconscious as well. What happens below the surface, and stays there, does not effect you. It is only when something becomes superliminal that it has an effect.

True. And in only that way does River affect the crew.

You could say that Kaylee is the crew's subconscious in the same way, if only the never-noticed sublimimal things count towards that, anyway.

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Her reasons for those actions are generally irrelevant to how the crew would react, unlike what we associate with subconscious reasons for our behavior with are direct causes of their own effect on us.

I'd be very interested to know where you learned that association.

When you, for example, meet someone and like them right away do you stop and rack your brain to find out why? If you should determine that you do because they remind you of a friend do you react differently than you would if your introspection had revealed that you like them for another reason?

I fail to see where we contradict each other...

Person A reminds me of friend = subconscious reason.

I like Person A = direct result of subconscious reason.

River has a reason because she is a Crazy Reader = subconscious reason.

River stabs Jayne = ...?

The crew lock her up in her room = direct result of ...?

How would you classify that middle part that the others react to.

The only analogy I can think of there would be how an insane person would react to their own actions that are committed while out of control. Not how I would describe the crew. Or the ship.

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[Added] So I just noticed that out of every two recent posts in this thread one is me. I'm going to take a break and let other people talk.