GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Would you say River is the soul of the ship?

POSTED BY: PHYRELIGHT
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 8, 2008 04:54
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Thursday, January 3, 2008 3:23 PM

PHYRELIGHT


I was thinking about this. Kaylee is the heart of the ship (said by Joss). However, is River the soul of the ship? She feels everything, knows everything that is going on. Or, am I thinking too much?



"I swear, having you guys in my corner is like being friends with Zorro."
-Joss on us fans and our persistent reputation
Thanks, Joss!

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Thursday, January 3, 2008 4:55 PM

MIRAMEL


ooo- i like it!

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Thursday, January 3, 2008 4:58 PM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Miramel:

ooo- i like it!



What Miramel said. :)


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Friday, January 4, 2008 12:28 AM

THEINFAMOUSSHOTGUNLARRY


deffinatly, river also seems to be the philisophical/abstract thought process of the crew/ship/show. case in point...Heart of Gold- River stares at the laboring woman and says "Who do you thinks in there?" its a cool river line and it gets a laugh but at the same time it has some other layers...the whole episode is really about who is this child? is it the tyrant cowboys child who will grow up to be a tyrant cowboy or is it the girls who will have another destiny...Who is in there is a deep reaching question. River is my favorite charecter, even though I tend to be more like book so I may be thinking about this too much.

I'm a Volunteer Browncoat

The Infamous Shotgun Larry

aka David

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Friday, January 4, 2008 2:28 AM

JONGSSTRAW


I think Mal is the soul of the ship. It's his ship, his love, and he is the driving force that gets jobs to keep Serenity in the air and the crew together.

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Friday, January 4, 2008 2:57 AM

BADKARMA00


I agree, Mal is the soul of Serenity. River is more like the subconscious part of the brain.



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President for Life, American Association of New Year's Resolution Breakers

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Friday, January 4, 2008 6:00 AM

SHINYSEVEN2


If she *was* the soul of the ship it might explain why pieces keep dropping off...actually I think my favorite extended metaphor is not Serenity but the entire crew as an uber-Buffy.

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Friday, January 4, 2008 6:18 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by shinyseven2:
If she *was* the soul of the ship it might explain why pieces keep dropping off...

LOL! That's excellent...

I agree with Jongstraw and BadKarma that Mal is the soul of the ship. He's the center, the thing that holds it all together.

River? Hmm. I think she's the paw with a thorn in it.



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Friday, January 4, 2008 7:54 AM

MIRAMEL


i dunno, i think i might say mal is more like the head of the ship. maybe not exactly the brain, but something along those lines.

~~~~
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature
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Friday, January 4, 2008 10:46 AM

BOBECC


I agree with Miramel, Mal is the head/brain of the ship.

My buddies and I have had this discussion over way to many mudder's milks and have come to this conclusion.

Mal: Head/brain of the ship. He makes sure all of the other vital functions are taken care of and is capable of doing not nice things to make sure his ship/crew survive.

Kaylee: As said by Saint Joss, she is the heart of Serenity. Cares for and sees the good in everyone and would never consciously harm anyone (other than reavers, but thats different).

Book: Voice of reason and morality. He tries to keep the crew on the straight and narrow.

Inara: Sensuality and love. Regardless of her status as a companion, Inara really does represent love.

River: The soul. She speaks her mind and makes no sense at times, which if you think about it is just like your soul. She also has the ability to make the crew do things they normally wouldn't do.

Wash: He represents a sense of family and belonging. His and Zoe's happiness in their relationship spills over to the rest of the crew. I knid of gives them a taste of normalcy in their chaotic lives.

Zoe: Survival and loyalty. Zoe's a survivor and seems to give the rest something to look up to.

Simon: voice of civilization. He's proper and tries to help the rest remain so.

Jayne: Jayne's kind of like the penis of the ship. I know this sounds vulgar at first, but it makes since if you think about it.

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Friday, January 4, 2008 11:06 AM

AGENTROUKA


Can we make Jayne a more gender-neutral thing, since Serenity is obviously a "she"? ;)


My personal theory is that Mal IS the ship, not a part of it, and that everyone else on it is just as aspect of Mal, similar to the above list, but not quite.

In my mind, Rive is Mal/Serenity's spirit. Whether spirit and soul are the same is up to anyone to decide but I think that spirit can be used in a less religious sense while soul has a very transcendent ring to it.

Mal = Serenity
Zoe = all things survival
Wash = balance, normality, trust
Kaylee = hope
Inara = love, sensuality
Jayne = base insticts
Book = external value system (religion)
Simon = internal value system (nobility)
River = spirit (internal force)

River is basically Mal's forward drive, the connector of all those other things that makes us a whole person.
She's broken and confused, like Mal is after the war, but she's brought to a place where she can heal (Serenity) and follows her impulses (like Mal does when he takes her in) and ends up being a catalyst that makes Mal do something active (not just passively getting by) and stand up for his ideals.

It also says a lot about Mal's character to look at River: fragile, peace-loving, attracted to beauty and nature, but also fiercely determined and supernaturally strong when she has to be. A creature of love and strength. Who depends very very much on the love of those around her.

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Friday, January 4, 2008 11:11 AM

BOBECC


Ok, I like Jayne being the basic instincts. That makes it a little more clear.

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Friday, January 4, 2008 1:11 PM

HIXIE129


The ship has its own soul.

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Friday, January 4, 2008 1:18 PM

RIVERFLAN


AR there's a thread about that theory:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=31039#549873

I semi-agree with that theory, but not by much. Mal is a many-sided person, but so's the rest of the crew. They might not be as obvious about it, but they aren't just "I'm Mal's __". The caracters reflect bits of him, but they aren't actually bits of him. You could do the same thing for Inara, Book, Wash being the star "actual and whole" person, with Mal being their "confused side"

Back to the topic, I agree with someone above me that Mal is the head/brain of Serenity. As for River... I don't think she's quite the soul/spirit of the ship, but more like sub-concious part of the brain, the part that tries to make random scraps of memory it gleans into a story, or a dream. She makes as much sense as a dream, too, cause when you're in the dream it makes perfect sense but when you wake up, it flies in the face of reason. Her memories of Miranda, the Hands of Blue, and other scary stuff like that are the nightmares.

Swirligigs!
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Friday, January 4, 2008 1:29 PM

PHYRELIGHT


Quote:

Originally posted by bobecc:
Jayne: Jayne's kind of like the penis of the ship. I know this sounds vulgar at first, but it makes since if you think about it.

Thank you! I've been saying for a long time that Jayne is a walking penis!

It's also my argument on why Jayne does have a crush on Inara... No, make that a crush on all of the women in the 'verse.



"I swear, having you guys in my corner is like being friends with Zorro."
-Joss on us fans and our persistent reputation
Thanks, Joss!

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Friday, January 4, 2008 1:33 PM

PHYRELIGHT


Quote:

Originally posted by RiverFlan:
AR there's a thread about that theory:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=31039#549873

I semi-agree with that theory, but not by much. Mal is a many-sided person, but so's the rest of the crew. They might not be as obvious about it, but they aren't just "I'm Mal's __". The caracters reflect bits of him, but they aren't actually bits of him. You could do the same thing for Inara, Book, Wash being the star "actual and whole" person, with Mal being their "confused side"

Back to the topic, I agree with someone above me that Mal is the head/brain of Serenity. As for River... I don't think she's quite the soul/spirit of the ship, but more like sub-concious part of the brain, the part that tries to make random scraps of memory it gleans into a story, or a dream. She makes as much sense as a dream, too, cause when you're in the dream it makes perfect sense but when you wake up, it flies in the face of reason. Her memories of Miranda, the Hands of Blue, and other scary stuff like that are the nightmares.

Swirligigs!
#~%~~*~~~&~~~*~~%~#

\~~~*~~^~~*~~~/
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature.

I'm starting to agree with you. Mal is more like the conscious of ship, where River is the subconscious.



"I swear, having you guys in my corner is like being friends with Zorro."
-Joss on us fans and our persistent reputation
Thanks, Joss!

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Friday, January 4, 2008 2:28 PM

TRAVELER


My impression is that Serenity has a soul of its own. It brought Mal to it when he needed a new home. After that others followed. Wash and Zoe needed each other and Serenity brought them together. Jayne was going down a bad road and suddenly he decides to cross his partners and trust Mal. Kaylee is trapped on a planet where she would have become the girl that would have been every young mans toy. Suddenly she finds herself on Serenity and escapes being the local tramp. Inara is lost. For some reason she feels the need to leave her safe comfortable world where she may have become the head of the household. Where does she end up; on Serenity. Now the story begins for us with Shepard Book and two refugees from the Aliance. This ship pulls these people together because they need something. Serenity has a way of bringing the lost to her. As you watch the episodes and see each person having an opportunity for growth.

Jayne may be the most obvious, because he is so crude and his past is pure self indulgence. Say whore and his eyes light up with carnal desire. He fights being good because he thinks he must be tough to survive. Then what happens, Jaynestown and then Ariel. Jayne has a thick scull and years of fighting for everything he has gained. Now he starts to question this and with the help of Mal and a large wrench to his head, Jayne is given another chance to learn. The series ended to soon to see how much Jayne would have changed, but the opportunities were there. Only on Serenity did he have these opportunityies. The ship knew and pulled into her hull and made him part of the crew.

You can see how Simon and River could never have survived without being a part of this crew. Of all the ships docked in that port Simon picked Serenity. Mal was going to throw Simon and River off at Whitefall. But at the end of the episode Mal tells Simom he can stay. Mal did not have to take this risk. Serenity decided Simon and River needed what was on that ship and the ship needed them.

All these people are more than just a crew and passengers to each other. Each has contributed to the whole and each has made mistakes that are so human of them. These people are a family that Serenity put together. A disfunctional family I grant you, but a family. This ship is alive and it brings the needy to its protective and nurturing soul. For Serenity needs them. Serenity has a purpose and it needs them as much as they need her.


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Friday, January 4, 2008 2:41 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Some folks have posted here that they think Inara represents "love". I would ask...what love? She gets paid, well paid for her business arrangements. She makes tea & has sex with rich people. She's really a futuristic geisha who can charm a man's pants off...but love doesn't enter into the picture, ever. She loves Serenity & the crew true enough, but once again I'd have to say that no one represents the "love" of what Serenity is more than Capt. Mal.

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Friday, January 4, 2008 3:23 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Some folks have posted here that they think Inara represents "love". I would ask...what love?

This is the thing I find so interesting about Inara - yes, her time with her clients is clearly something acted, not matter how she argues that it's a real thing, a choice and all. But if you watch her around the crew, she is very motherly. She is always there to comfort Book, to offer her cloak to naked River, to brush Kaylee's hair, to empathasize with Simon on his disastrous birthday. She is love - when she's not doing her Companion act. Which makes me wonder why she's chosen to be a Companion...

So - you admit yourself, she's loving to the crew. Well, that's the thing. These people all find their own true selves when they're on this ship. What they are outside it is an act, a survival mode. Except for maybe Kaylee... she's pretty real no matter what.

Quote:

once again I'd have to say that no one represents the "love" of what Serenity is more than Capt. Mal.
This I agree with! That is what is so wonderful, that he thinks he's such a bad guy and acts all gruff, but he's the one who had the vision to buy the ship and put it together as a home for them all. He's the one who chose each new member of the crew. He brought in Zoe, recruited Wash, asked Kaylee to stay, rented the shuttle to Inara, thought to talk Jayne into changing sides, asked Simon to stay with River. And I guess he didn't throw Book off LOL!

Mal gathered this group. If there's a binding force that creates this entity and holds it together, it's Mal. And I don't think he did it out of thought or planning. I think he had a feel for these people; he intuitively saw them as the folks he wanted with him. That's why I think he's the soul.

And if you're saying he's the brain... could be you're not recallin' some of the captain's plans...

As for River, I rally do mean the wounded paw thing. She came to them hurt, hurt in a way that everyone saw and felt. They helped heal her, and she became both a tool for sensing the world outside them, (drawing Mal back into the fight) and a weapon. Girl's got claws. Mostly, I just feel like she's a connection to the outside world. She draws them out, away from the ship's business and into the larger problems of the world.

-----------------------------------------------
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Friday, January 4, 2008 3:39 PM

SHINYSEVEN2


It would be interesting to map the various crew members' rooms and workplaces against a feng shui chart for Serenity (there's a Marriage area, a Prosperity area...eight in all, I can't remember all of them though).

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Friday, January 4, 2008 3:43 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Some folks have posted here that they think Inara represents "love". I would ask...what love?

This is the thing I find so interesting about Inara - yes, her time with her clients is clearly something acted, not matter how she argues that it's a real thing, a choice and all. But if you watch her around the crew, she is very motherly. She is always there to comfort Book, to offer her cloak to naked River, to brush Kaylee's hair, to empathasize with Simon on his disastrous birthday. She is love - when she's not doing her Companion act. Which makes me wonder why she's chosen to be a Companion...

So - you admit yourself, she's loving to the crew. Well, that's the thing. These people all find their own true selves when they're on this ship. What they are outside it is an act, a survival mode. Except for maybe Kaylee... she's pretty real no matter what.

Quote:

once again I'd have to say that no one represents the "love" of what Serenity is more than Capt. Mal.
This I agree with! That is what is so wonderful, that he thinks he's such a bad guy and acts all gruff, but he's the one who had the vision to buy the ship and put it together as a home for them all. He's the one who chose each new member of the crew. He brought in Zoe, recruited Wash, asked Kaylee to stay, rented the shuttle to Inara, thought to talk Jayne into changing sides, asked Simon to stay with River. And I guess he didn't throw Book off LOL!

Mal gathered this group. If there's a binding force that creates this entity and holds it together, it's Mal. And I don't think he did it out of thought or planning. I think he had a feel for these people; he intuitively saw them as the folks he wanted with him. That's why I think he's the soul.

And if you're saying he's the brain... could be you're not recallin' some of the captain's plans...

As for River, I rally do mean the wounded paw thing. She came to them hurt, hurt in a way that everyone saw and felt. They helped heal her, and she became both a tool for sensing the world outside them, (drawing Mal back into the fight) and a weapon. Girl's got claws. Mostly, I just feel like she's a connection to the outside world. She draws them out, away from the ship's business and into the larger problems of the world.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left


I'm pretty blown away with your personal insights on this subject...very impressive stuff!

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Friday, January 4, 2008 4:23 PM

PLATONIST


When folks say that Inara represents "love" on Serenity, I think they are referring to her nuturing/healing maternal nature in context to Mal and the other characters on the ship, and not what she does for a living, prostitution. In this sense, I agree with that assumption, especially since she is the only character that expresses actual love for the ship, "I loved this ship the minute I saw it" (OoG). And in a sense, she is expressing her love for Mal, because HE IS THE SHIP. The ship represents freedom and home. Mal affords all of the characters both of these by including them as riders.

Getting back to River, definetly the soul or an even better analogy would be Mal's "wounded spirit". By saving her and allowing her to fly free, from Alliance certain death, he heals his soul ("I'm alright") and is afforded real freedom to love, hence, we come to the love metaphor at the end of Serenity, after, Inara (love) is considering staying.

And Kaylee, the heart, Zoe, a soldier's loyalty, etc...Gosh... it's frackin "The Wizard of Oz", come to think of it!









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Friday, January 4, 2008 4:34 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


I seem to remember someone, I think it might have been Joss on one of the commentaries, saying that Mal gathered people together who represented parts of him, some of them parts that he had cut out of himself.

In that sense there is certainly reason to consider the members of the crew as parts of a whole, but in doing so I don't think that anyone should forget that each is a whole person. Somewhere, hidden deep inside of Simon, there is a Jayne waiting to come out.

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Friday, January 4, 2008 5:01 PM

ASARIAN


Well, as always, AgentRouka, you make a solid case. :)

When River was pretending to possess the ship incorporeally, had you then asked me: "That seem right to you?", I would have said: "Yes!" :) I believe it's precisely River's transcendence that makes her so integral to the entire boat. I was really rather moved by her role as "Serenity," even though I reckon it was primarily meant to tickle the funny-bone. In fact, as Serenity, I think she truly transcends herself. She's nowhere, and she's everywhere. She's the hunted and the hunter. They didn't want her here, yet she's "right here" for Kaylee:

KAYLEE
I told him where you were, I'm sorry,
I didn't know what --

RIVER
Sshhhh... I'm fine. Only I need you
to do something for me. Gotta be
brave.

KAYLEE
I'm tied up, I can't --

RIVER (V.O.)
Got tools. something sharp. Don't
be scared. I'm right here.

As Serenity, River is really larger than herself. Once a scared young girl that crawled out of the box, she's now like a Motherly Being enfolding her frightened children. It's almost as if the vastness of the ship itself lends her an imperturbable serenity: a grandness that comes from being at one with it all. Fear and doubt make place for confidence and certainty. I should say, calm confidence and calm certainty, for there's not a trace of arrogance and boastfulness in any of it. Though burrying herself in the part, she's not faking: her comforting words to Kaylee are spoken from true transcendence. It's so beautiful. Honestly, there could be tears (and even more honest: there were).

River is the kind of figure you can easily see evolve to a point where she transcends to pure energy, the way they do in Star Trek and such. :) Why, not really, lol; but a fully matured River certainly has the potential to outgrow them all: not in the sense of being "better than", but simply as a person whose vast psychic abilities and great empathy connect her to almost everything, inspiring them all, making her presence as solid and comforting as the boat itself.

"Spirit" is good enough for me. :)


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Friday, January 4, 2008 8:17 PM

PLATONIST


Good post, asarian

Yeah, I like "Spirit" too, and the way, like you said, that it starts in OiS and continues into the movie, and the way she watches Mal and the scenes that dissolve from her to him, like when he's contemplating Inara's vid or he is sleeping in his bunk, before Wash wakes him. It is almost like she lives within the ship, in an altered state, transcending into another dimension. Good stuff, gosh… it is times like this when I can’t understand why we don’t have a sequel and all these crappy movies do????

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Saturday, January 5, 2008 12:50 AM

JONGSSTRAW


How do you think River communicated individually to Kaylee & Mal from Early's ship? Was it some sort of focused transmittal beam, or did she use telepathy to "speak" to them?

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Saturday, January 5, 2008 5:42 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by RiverFlan:


I semi-agree with that theory, but not by much. Mal is a many-sided person, but so's the rest of the crew. They might not be as obvious about it, but they aren't just "I'm Mal's __". The caracters reflect bits of him, but they aren't actually bits of him. You could do the same thing for Inara, Book, Wash being the star "actual and whole" person, with Mal being their "confused side"



I'm not saying that the other characters have no qualities beside being external representations of Mal-aspects. They obviously also stand on their own.

But their most obvious, most individually strong quality happens to coincide with Mal's own.

Mal is undeniably the main character, the point and heart of the show. You can't watch the show and mistake Wash for the main character.
Mal chose Serenity, he gathered this crew around himself and he's the one we focus on. He's the connecting factor for all of them. Without Mal no Serenity, no crew, no jobs, no passengers, no series. That's what makes my theory a valid concept.

Quote:


Back to the topic, I agree with someone above me that Mal is the head/brain of Serenity. As for River... I don't think she's quite the soul/spirit of the ship, but more like sub-concious part of the brain, the part that tries to make random scraps of memory it gleans into a story, or a dream. She makes as much sense as a dream, too, cause when you're in the dream it makes perfect sense but when you wake up, it flies in the face of reason. Her memories of Miranda, the Hands of Blue, and other scary stuff like that are the nightmares.



River, though, makes sense outside of dream-logic, too. Her problems are real and her powers are too super-natural to account for something as natural as the subconscious. It's not just a case of connecting unconnected facts.

She doesn't just know things that the others aren't consciously aware of, she knows things they could not naturally be aware of, and she definitely poses lots of moral and philosophical questions to the crew. That's a bit more spiritual than mere psychology.

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Saturday, January 5, 2008 5:44 AM

AGENTROUKA


Beautifully said, asarian!

I guess that line between spirit and soul really does dissolve somewhere along the line. *G*

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Saturday, January 5, 2008 5:45 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
How do you think River communicated individually to Kaylee & Mal from Early's ship? Was it some sort of focused transmittal beam, or did she use telepathy to "speak" to them?



I'm fairly certain she did it ina purely "normal" technological way. Nothing in the series suggests that her powers are active rather than passive.

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Saturday, January 5, 2008 6:13 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I'm pretty blown away with your personal insights on this subject...very impressive stuff!

Thanks! I spend entirely too much time thinking about fanfic LOL!

-----------------------------------------------
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Saturday, January 5, 2008 6:20 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Mal = Serenity
Zoe = all things survival
Wash = balance, normality, trust
Kaylee = hope
Inara = love, sensuality
Jayne = base insticts
Book = external value system (religion)
Simon = internal value system (nobility)
River = spirit (internal force)

Forgot to mention, AR - very nice. I find your take on Simon and Book expecially thought-provoking.

As for Jayne, I also disagree with calling him just a penis. Sure, he's got a sex drive, but it's the way he's so unfiltered and almost boyishly open about it that sticks with me. And he's like that about everything that's important to him - alcohol, violence, guns. I think his openness about his urges is the defining thing. So yeah - "base instinct" is perfect!

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Saturday, January 5, 2008 6:46 AM

RIVERFLAN


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:

River, though, makes sense outside of dream-logic, too. Her problems are real and her powers are too super-natural to account for something as natural as the subconscious. It's not just a case of connecting unconnected facts.

She doesn't just know things that the others aren't consciously aware of, she knows things they could not naturally be aware of, and she definitely poses lots of moral and philosophical questions to the crew. That's a bit more spiritual than mere psychology.



I'm not saying that River is only a dream. I'm saying is the sub-concious part, and that parts of her act like dreams do. And she uses her powers subconciously mostly- she doesn't think "Oh, I'll just read this person's mind today". And it could be argued that the subconcious has the spirit inside it.

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Saturday, January 5, 2008 6:56 AM

AGENTROUKA


Thank you!

I'm very fond of those two as a concept, myself. We keep seeing those two in interesting constellations to Mal.

They keep asking the same things of Mal: to make moral choices. Simon because of what he is and does, Book out of an external principle.

In "Safe" Mal does the same thing Simon does: sacrifice Simon. He acts against his selfish inclincation because his emotions (Inara) prompt him to save someone he cares about, but in the same vain that Simon would never abandon River, Mal would never abandon him and takes additional risks. But in the end, he doesn't want to admit it. ("Why are we still talking about this?")

In "Ours Mrs. Reynolds" it's Mal's moral upbringing that keeps having the greatest issues with how he deals with Saffron: Book and his "special hell".

In "Bushwhacked", Simon's noble offer to help treat survivers is crudely rejected by Jayne. Book doesn't come in until it's about rituals and the "proper" thing to do. Mal let's Simon treat the Reaver boy even though he claims he'd rather kill him right away.

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Saturday, January 5, 2008 7:04 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by RiverFlan:
I'm not saying that River is only a dream. I'm saying is the sub-concious part, and that parts of her act like dreams do. And she uses her powers subconciously mostly- she doesn't think "Oh, I'll just read this person's mind today". And it could be argued that the subconcious has the spirit inside it.




I get that you're not saying River is just a dream, but I think that the description "subconscious" is not really fitting with what River does for the whole of Serenity. I'll agree that her thought processes and hallucinations have aspects of dreams to them, but all those things still center all around her. Not the ship or the crew or Mal. You can't describe her as the ship's subconsciousness because... Serenity doesn't have the Alliance trauma that River expresses when she rips labels off food cans. River only expresses herself.

Her effect on the others is not a subconscious one but a very aware one, too.

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Saturday, January 5, 2008 10:24 AM

RIVERFLAN


yes, but I don't know another way to describe her... I don't think she's Serenity's soul because Serenity has her own soul already. It's what made Mal fall in love with Serenity. River wasn't on Serenity when Mal bought her, so she can't be the soul.

If you come up with another term, please feel free to label River

Also, I didn't come into this thread to argue about labels for River. Labels can help people describe others, but not even a psyciatrist (sp?) can put anough labels on a person to describe all that there is about them. So labels don't really matter that much, and I'm not going to spend a lot of energy arguing about labels.

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Saturday, January 5, 2008 10:39 AM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:

I seem to remember someone, I think it might have been Joss on one of the commentaries, saying that Mal gathered people together who represented parts of him, some of them parts that he had cut out of himself.



Though I can't immediately place all parts of Mal, I can readily see it of Kaylee, who, as AgentRouka identified it in a single word, represents Serenity's hope. I believe Kaylee -- or what she stands for, really -- fills up the God-shaped hole in Mal's heart.

Dance like no one is watching.
Work like you don't need the money.
Love like you've never been hurt.

That's Kaylee. Plus a wrench. :) Kaylee's whole, child-like, attitude of unconditional trust and unrelenting faith in people is the culmination of all Mal wanted to have seen in his God, but couldn't. Kaylee vicariously carries those attributes for his God, as it were -- so he, and the crew, can draw from it without officially having to welcome God on Mal's boat. :) Cut Kaylee out, and it would mean a great disturbance in the Force, much like removing Book, the boat's conscience, proved rather detrimental to Mal's character in the BDM, making him more grim and prone to doing things he would, most like, not have done otherwise.

Hope is not an island unto itself, though: it's directed at something, a goal. Which is where River comes in. AgentRouka said: "River is basically Mal's forward drive." And so true that is! River gives Mal a renewed sense of purpose. He now has, again, a cause to believe in; and he has Kaylee near him, beaming neverending hope and trust, for when his mood gets darker than the space he moves in.

Btw, good thread! If voting were to occur, AgentRouka and Mal4prez would certainly get mine. :)


--
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Saturday, January 5, 2008 10:49 AM

AGENTROUKA


Deleted for double-postage. Real reply below.

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Saturday, January 5, 2008 10:49 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by RiverFlan:
yes, but I don't know another way to describe her... I don't think she's Serenity's soul because Serenity has her own soul already. It's what made Mal fall in love with Serenity.




I guess that's the point where we disagree. :) I don't see Serenity as an entity of her own. To me, she is imbued with meaning by the people on her, like all objects, and Mal will only be truly free when he reaches the point where he doesn't need her anymore.

Good that we found out where we can agree to disagree, exactly. :)

Quote:


Also, I didn't come into this thread to argue about labels for River.



I thought that was the point of this thread? ;)

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Saturday, January 5, 2008 11:09 AM

RIVERFLAN


The tread is asking about the possibility of River being the ship's soul. You could call that a label, but there's a difference between meaningful and useless labels. I'm not wanting to argue about meaningless labels.

And she imbued with meaning by the people on her, to use your phrase. Everything is, including people. But there's a difference between a deck of cards and a gun, even if they are brand-new and haven't been imbued yet. That's what I'm thinking of as the "soul" of Serenity: she's the personification of freedom for Mal, and the possibility to work and live for the rest of the crew.

Not trying to confuse the issue, but I do agree with you on that point. Maybe we're just lacking termonology and we're ending up using different labels to describe the same thing.

And I was also trying to back down a little, and try to keep this thread from turning into a RWED lol.

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Saturday, January 5, 2008 11:14 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Just like to point out that the subconscious does effect the conscious. It isn't just dreams or whatnot (though they effect the conscious too.) It is what taps your conscious on the shoulder, tells it things it doesn't quite understand and would never work out on its own, and then disappears without explanation.

Whether we want to say River is the subconscious or not is another question entirely, but I just want to point out that I don't think, "Her effect on the others is not a subconscious one but a very aware one, too," is a valid reason for her not to be since often times you're very aware of the effect your subconscious has on you, even if not why it is having that effect.

For an example consider, "I don't know, just something about him bothers me." Presumably the reason she doesn't know what is bothering her is because the cause and effect isn't happening on a conscious level, but she is still very aware of being bothered.

I feel I've totally failed to make sense, but I'm going to post anyway in hopes someone can translate what I've said into understandable-speak.

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Saturday, January 5, 2008 11:20 AM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:

I guess that's the point where we disagree. :) I don't see Serenity as an entity of her own. To me, she is imbued with meaning by the people on her, like all objects, and Mal will only be truly free when he reaches the point where he doesn't need her anymore.


Wow! If my agreeing with you becomes too annoying, just stop me. :) But I gotta say: once again, you could not be more astute in your observation, even if you tried!

Remember how Zoe first saw Serenity? As a piece of fei-oo, garbage; and a deathtrap. And Mal was most right: she won't win any beauty contests soon. But it was Mal who was willing to see past what she is, and on to what she can be. Take the cargo-bay, for instance. Objectively, it really is luh suh, all rusty and old. Yet, to us, it looks beautiful, warm, and inviting. Because, exactly like you say, it's imbued with meaning by the crew. Early's question, therefore, was most to the point: is it still a cargo-bay when it's empty? I mean, would a similar cargo-bay give the same thrill? I think not. When, in my mind, I walk down Serenity's halls, I realize I'm soaking up its atmosphere, really; the infusion of love, laughter, sorrow, and togetherness: clouds of presence, spun by the members of our beloved crew. All entirely invisble, of course, yet most missed when absent.


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Saturday, January 5, 2008 12:29 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:

Whether we want to say River is the subconscious or not is another question entirely, but I just want to point out that I don't think, "Her effect on the others is not a subconscious one but a very aware one, too," is a valid reason for her not to be since often times you're very aware of the effect your subconscious has on you, even if not why it is having that effect.




Aren't those two things saying the same thing, almost?

They are aware of the effect River has on them: Make difficult choices. Take big risks. Ask ethical questions. Find the crazy Reaver guy. Be saved from Jubal Early.

Even though they aren't privy to all the ways and reasons River comes to affect them the way she does (They find out much later that she's a Reader) they are very aware of the effect she has on them. They don't do things about River without knowing why. They don't feel things about River wiout knowing why. They could probably all of them explain to you why they make the choices about her that they do, safe for Mal after he takes her back on the ship in the movie and that's only because he's too afraid to admit it, so really..

What you are saying is exactly what I am saying: Her effect is an entirely aware and conscious one. The reasons for those effects are River's, personally. They do not unknowingly affect the others. Jayne, Inara or Kaylee have no unaknowledged connection to the Blue Hands, that's all River and it doesn't become real for the others until they find out about it. Nothing affects them that they are not aware of. It's all in her actions, not her reasons for them.

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Saturday, January 5, 2008 1:56 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


What I'm saying is that the same can be said of your own subconscious. You are very aware of the effect it has on you. You like this person, you don't like that person, this idea comes to you, you had a dream about world domination and decided to start working towards that in a nearby industrial district, whatever.

Effects are like that, you are consciously aware of them. You have to be. If you weren't then they wouldn't be effecting your conscious at all, and thus they wouldn't be effects at all. Whenever your subconscious effects your conscious mind you are consciously aware of it by definition.

I'm not saying that River does represent the subconscious, what I am saying is that if she does then we would expect all of the crew to be consciously aware of her effect on them. So saying, "Her effect on the others is not a subconscious one but a very aware one," is like saying, "Her effect on others is exactly what we would expect."

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Saturday, January 5, 2008 2:09 PM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:
What I'm saying is that the same can be said of your own subconscious. You are very aware of the effect it has on you. You like this person, you don't like that person, this idea comes to you, you had a dream about world domination and decided to start working towards that in a nearby industrial district, whatever.

Effects are like that, you are consciously aware of them. You have to be. If you weren't then they wouldn't be effecting your conscious at all, and thus they wouldn't be effects at all. Whenever your subconscious effects your conscious mind you are consciously aware of it by definition.



I think you are saying we are, by definition, aware of the subconscious effects on our conscious mind, but not necessarily aware of the causes of those effects, right?


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Saturday, January 5, 2008 2:17 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Right, we don't know why our subconscious does what it does, but we are consciously aware of the effects it has on us.

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Saturday, January 5, 2008 2:36 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:
What I'm saying is that the same can be said of your own subconscious. You are very aware of the effect it has on you. You like this person, you don't like that person...

So not true!! People are often very unaware of the effect of their subconscious. People act without knowing the reason, or they come up with reasons that aren't true. Denial, rationalization. It happens a lot!

Example: Jane doesn't like Sally, finds her bitchy and superior and annoying. (Truth: Sally's always talking about her experiences in college and Jane didn't go to college and feels insecure over it.)

Example: John hates the liberal left. He finds them weak and ineffective and blind to reality. (Truth: John grew up with a single mother who was a self-absorbed hippy. He projects his opinion of her on every liberal he meets.)

Example: George doesn't join his friends at the movie because he's tired and doesn't want to see the show so much. (Truth: he's an alcoholic and wants to stay home and drink, but can't admit his own priorities to himself.)

I think the subconscious is frequently controlling us without informing us. That's what it does, thats it's whole purpose. It's a survival thing - we don't have time to compute every detail of our experience every time we make a decision. Our subconscious is there to guide us. It does us good, but bad as well. Why do you think so many people pay therapists so much money? Cause they can't figure themselves out!

Edit: I do think this is different from what you're saying, because of the redirection aspect. Often, we don't even know that our subconscious has stepped up and taken action.

I think this applies to the River/subconscious metaphor...

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Saturday, January 5, 2008 3:08 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


You miss the point. Jane doesn't like Sally because her subconscious tells her so. She does not know why she does not like Sally, and can and does misinterpret her reasons for not liking Sally, but she knows that she doesn't like Sally. Jane reacts to not liking Sally in ways that she is consciously aware of.

This is like River. River says Saffron is a thief. The others do not know why she said it, and can and do misinterpret why River called her a thief, but they know that River said she was a thief. They react to River saying she was a thief in ways that they are consciously (and publicly) aware of.

People may not know the reasons for the effects that their subconscious has on them, but they are aware of the effects. Jane knows that she doesn't like Sally, John knows he doesn't like the left, George knows he wants to stay home. They are all aware of the effects, none are aware of the reasons for the effects. If they do something about the effects, Jane is snarky to Sally, John votes against the left, George stays home, they will all be consciously aware of that process as well.

-

To approach this from another direction:

If we were to posit that River represents the subconscious, then anything that remained at a subconscious level would be represented by things staying with her and not effecting the others.

When she does have an effect on the others that would be representative of the subconscious having an effect on something other than the subconscious. Something other than the unconscious is the conscious. So whenever she has an effect on the crew it is like the subconscious having an effect on the conscious.

When the subconscious has an effect on the conscious the conscious is aware of that effect, and aware of what it does as a result of that effect. Thus the crew should be aware of the effect River has on them, and what they do as a result of that effect. What they should not, necessarily, be aware of is why River had the effect she did.

They clearly don't know why River said Saffron was a thief, they don't know why she said, "Two by two, hands of blue," or why she slashed Jayne with a knife, just as a person doesn't know why their subconscious has the effects it does. They are aware of the effects, not the causes, just as with one's subconscious.

-

I'm not saying that River does represent that, I just honestly don't think the reason for rejecting it is valid.

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Sunday, January 6, 2008 10:49 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:

To approach this from another direction:

If we were to posit that River represents the subconscious, then anything that remained at a subconscious level would be represented by things staying with her and not effecting the others.

When she does have an effect on the others that would be representative of the subconscious having an effect on something other than the subconscious. Something other than the unconscious is the conscious. So whenever she has an effect on the crew it is like the subconscious having an effect on the conscious.

When the subconscious has an effect on the conscious the conscious is aware of that effect, and aware of what it does as a result of that effect. Thus the crew should be aware of the effect River has on them, and what they do as a result of that effect. What they should not, necessarily, be aware of is why River had the effect she did.

They clearly don't know why River said Saffron was a thief, they don't know why she said, "Two by two, hands of blue," or why she slashed Jayne with a knife, just as a person doesn't know why their subconscious has the effects it does. They are aware of the effects, not the causes, just as with one's subconscious.

-

I'm not saying that River does represent that, I just honestly don't think the reason for rejecting it is valid.



Isn't, though, a characteristic of the subconscious, that it contains information we could theoretically be aware of? Information that is at our disposal but that we filter for biological or psychological reasons? And that the sunconscious reasons we have for things are directly related to their effect on us?


Because, I do not think that those things apply to River.

Her reasons for acting the way she does are generally irrelevant to how her actions affect the crew - how the crew reacts to her. Not to mention, her reasons are things the crew cannot be aware of, nor are they directly related to the crew itself.

For example:

They take on River because she's a little girl wrongfully hunted. The real reason she is hunted is entirely irrelevant to that decision.

She stabs Jayne, they lock her up in her room. The real reason she stabs Jayne is entirely irrelevant.

She identifies Saffron as a thief. The crew have no reason to know that outside of what River says. It's not a subconscious piece of knowledge they deny, more like a random newsfeed. And they entirely ignore her, rightfully.

The reason they ignore her is that they do not have information they cannot have. The real reason River knows that Saffron is a thief has zero to do with her effect on the crew at that moment.


River's secrets, in a word, generally have no effect. Only her actions do. Her reasons for those actions are generally irrelevant to how the crew would react, unlike what we associate with subconscious reasons for our behavior with are direct causes of their own effect on us. River' reasons are only undirectly related to their effect, if at all.

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Monday, January 7, 2008 9:35 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Isn't, though, a characteristic of the subconscious, that it contains information we could theoretically be aware of? Information that is at our disposal but that we filter for biological or psychological reasons? And that the sunconscious reasons we have for things are directly related to their effect on us?


You lost me at the last sentence. I admit that I have not studied psychology all that much, but in what I have come across I have never heard anyone make that kind of a claim.

There's an obvious counter example right in this thread where someone posted, "Jane doesn't like Sally, finds her bitchy and superior and annoying. (Truth: Sally's always talking about her experiences in college and Jane didn't go to college and feels insecure over it.)"

To me that seems very believable, I don't see any reason that the parenthetical couldn't describe Jane's subconscious reason for feeling as she does. Assuming you don't find it unrealistic either (and if you do find it unrealistic tell me) I'd like to use it as an example.

I just wrote a long thing and realized I'd probably end up just boring you. So instead I'll just ask this. Jane consciously dislikes Sally finding her bitchy and superior and annoying, what difference does it make to Jane or Sally if that is because of insecurities over college or because Sally subconsciously reminds Jane of someone else, or even that Jane's subconscious made the determination that Sally was those things?

In every case you'd have the same situation facing Jane and Sally both, since Jane is unaware of her reasoning it isn't going to effect how she decides to deal with not liking Sally.

Quote:

Because, I do not think that those things apply to River.

I should probably point out, again, that I don't really feel either way about the idea of River being the subconscious, I just disagree with your reason for refuting it. That's why there's a lack of, "No, look at what she does in ____, she's clearly the subconscious," in my posts.

I agree with you that River has information not available to the rest of the crew, for obvious reasons, however no one said, to my knowledge, that she is the subconscious of the crew members. Just as no one has said, to my knowledge, that Kaylee is the hope inside of Jayne. Kaylee doesn't necessarily know what Jayne hopes for, Kaylee probably doesn't want to know what Jayne hopes for.

When taking the crew as a whole River can never have more information than that whole, because she is a part of that whole, and in that case I'm not sure I see your reasoning.

Quote:

Her reasons for acting the way she does are generally irrelevant to how her actions affect the crew - how the crew reacts to her.

I think that, outside of therapy and deep introspection, this is true of most people's subconsciouses.

Quote:

She identifies Saffron as a thief. The crew have no reason to know that outside of what River says. It's not a subconscious piece of knowledge they deny, more like a random newsfeed. And they entirely ignore her, rightfully.

Minor nitpick: No they don't.

They assume, incorrectly, that she was referring to something else Saffron stole, not the ship as a whole.

Quote:

River's secrets, in a word, generally have no effect. Only her actions do.

If you consider her actions as being analogous to the times when the conscious and the subconscious interact I'd say that that is true of an person's subconscious as well. What happens below the surface, and stays there, does not effect you. It is only when something becomes superliminal that it has an effect.

Quote:

Her reasons for those actions are generally irrelevant to how the crew would react, unlike what we associate with subconscious reasons for our behavior with are direct causes of their own effect on us.

I'd be very interested to know where you learned that association.

When you, for example, meet someone and like them right away do you stop and rack your brain to find out why? If you should determine that you do because they remind you of a friend do you react differently than you would if your introspection had revealed that you like them for another reason?

[Added] So I just noticed that out of every two recent posts in this thread one is me. I'm going to take a break and let other people talk.

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Monday, January 7, 2008 4:10 PM

CBSTEVE


My response encompasses how each character relates to the ship and the crew as if part of the whole body and the things that make us human.

Kaylee - heart, emotion, love
Mal - brains, wit, bitterness, protectiveness
Jayne - muscles, lust, fear, greed
Simon - immune system, caring, hesitation
Book - conscience and wisdom
Inara - sensual aspects, mystery
Zoe - loyalty, determination
Wash - funny bone, sense of humor
River - soul, intelligence

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