GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

There is no such thing as science fiction in movies and TV

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Monday, December 31, 2007 06:00
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Thursday, December 27, 2007 8:13 PM

CHRISISALL


I pose the idea that true science fiction remains in the purview of the written word, and that that which we call SF in movies and TV is merely fantasy, or at best, 'speculative fiction'.

Any takers?

Finninspiredthistopicisall


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Thursday, December 27, 2007 8:25 PM

EMBERS


I'm not sure I get your distinction...
what written stories would you call sci-fi,
and why do they lose that distinction when they are filmed?
Or am I really not getting your point at all?

Now this is probably not in keeping w/the topic you started...but there is a huge difference to me in Sci-fi that is set in our world (here on Earth, with the physical laws we accept as fact), and those set on other plants, in other universes where the writer can construct a different set of physical 'laws'....

which is a lot like fantasy worlds, naturally....

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Thursday, December 27, 2007 9:02 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by embers:
I'm not sure I get your distinction...

SCIENCE fiction deals with how science is applied to fiction- that is, how realistic physical laws apply to the story...movies and TV seem to abandon the realism of events and processes to tell the story efficiently and succinctly therefore letting us down in the science dept. As Finn and Citizen noted, shortcuts are taken to tell the tales, are we too dull as a mass-entertainment audience to accept the nuances of inertia, time, gravity, power curves, etc., to accept a story ensconced in minutia that is scientifically relevant?
That's all I want to explore here...

Late night Chrisisall

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Thursday, December 27, 2007 9:15 PM

CHRISISALL


In responce to a post by someone in my other thread, I would say that movies like 2001, Solaris, Gattica, and Star Trek: TMP, qualify as 'real' science fiction...

If you cheer and jump, it's still just fantasy IMO.

Blue Danube Chrisisall

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Thursday, December 27, 2007 9:29 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
SCIENCE fiction deals with how science is applied to fiction- that is, how realistic physical laws apply to the story...movies and TV seem to abandon the realism of events and processes to tell the story efficiently and succinctly therefore letting us down in the science dept. As Finn and Citizen noted, shortcuts are taken to tell the tales, are we too dull as a mass-entertainment audience to accept the nuances of inertia, time, gravity, power curves, etc., to accept a story ensconced in minutia that is scientifically relevant?
That's all I want to explore here...




Sounds a lot like the novels of Robert Heinlein, who would stop the story and take a chunk, or a chapter, to expound on the theory of politics, or economics, or orbital mechanics, or how his FTL drive worked.

And that's fun.
But you can skip those chunks , and he still tells a good story. Some of 'em, he even tells you to skip. They're not for everybody, and if you made a GOOD movie out of one of his novels, you couldn't include the stuff without putting the audience to sleep, and you wouldn't sell tickets after opening day.

Not that I disagree with you about most supposedly SF movies or TV shows. They're often just futuristic action movies, or fantasy sword and sorcery flicks. ( Hell, one of 'em wasn't much more than a Western set in outer space. It got cancelled real quick , though.... :<) )

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Thursday, December 27, 2007 9:43 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:

Not that I disagree with you about most supposedly SF movies or TV shows. They're often just futuristic action movies, or fantasy sword and sorcery flicks. ( Hell, one of 'em wasn't much more than a Western set in outer space. It got canceled real quick , though.... :<) )

Thanks for a relevant and oh-so-cool response NOBC!

Science-in-the-fiction Chrisisall

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Thursday, December 27, 2007 10:48 PM

FELLOWKNEE


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:

Sounds a lot like the novels of Robert Heinlein, who would stop the story and take a chunk, or a chapter, to expound on the theory of politics, or economics, or orbital mechanics, or how his FTL drive worked.
:<) )



Hmmmm...seems to me like you fellows are making up a genre. From my halcyon days of youth I seem to remember that Science Fiction or Sci-Fi is the pejorative description. Most writers preferred speculative fiction, which seems like a better description as the focus (even in Asimov and Clark) isn't really on science which would make these novels into extended Scientific American articles, but in exploring humanity either in the future, following some current trend in human development, or in contact with something new and different, or as an allegory for some aspect of humanity. This speculation on human society makes them into stories.

Heinlein does stop and explain a lot of things. However, I don't believe that in say, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, he really wants us to think deeply about cannons that shoot re-entry vehicles into Earth's atmosphere. Instead, the focus is an anarchistic map to social change. When you take it out of the context of the time in which he lived and place it in the future, it allows him to examine his subjects more clearly, unclouded by our own prejudices about real commerce, oppression and rebellion. Science is the trapping. Speculation is the core.

Films have a distinct advantage in that they show the things working. They don't always have to explain, because presto, there it is. How does the spaceship work? Well, there's the engine, it lights up and the ship moves. See? Done.

That said, I believe that there are better and worse speculations on human nature in film. Ingmar Bergman's Shame is a great work of speculation. Twelve Monkeys is a fun look at our relationship to memory, these still moments in time which we see different aspects of as we move through our lives. Gattica, as mentioned, speculates well. 2001. Solaris (both the Russian and American versions for different reasons).

So, I guess I weigh in as believing that there are good movies and books that contain great ideas that make me think about things. Then there are both movies and books that make my brain shut off and let me escape mundane reality for a while. I'm not really concerned that either contains a certain quota of scientific information.

Although I wish there were more intelligent movies and television shows. Doesn't everyone?


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Thursday, December 27, 2007 11:05 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Fellowknee:

Although I wish there were more intelligent movies and television shows. Doesn't everyone?


Wow- I love this response!!!! Are you a Nexus 6???

Deckardisall

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Thursday, December 27, 2007 11:18 PM

FELLOWKNEE


After watching the director's cut of Blade Runner, I don't think any of us can be sure that we're NOT a Nexus 6.

(And, just to be a pain, Blade Runner, to the best of my recollection never gives us a lengthy explanation about the Nexus series. Are they clones or a robots? Would the explanation make us think more or less about the movie? Hmmmm...)

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Thursday, December 27, 2007 11:44 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Fellowknee:
After watching the director's cut of Blade Runner, I don't think any of us can be sure that we're NOT a Nexus 6.


The point of the movie, F.

NexusChrisisall

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Thursday, December 27, 2007 11:47 PM

FELLOWKNEE


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:

The point of the movie, F.



Which makes you wonder how we ever suffered through the stock footage and voice over original ending. No matter what the debate on science fiction, I believe we can all agree that studios do stupid things.

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Thursday, December 27, 2007 11:51 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Are you trying to say that Alien and 2001 are just horror flicks?
Do you consider Philip K Dick a sci fi writer? then when his works are made into film, they are not SciFi? Do you consider Total Recall to be scifi? Terminator?
I'll go with Narnia, Compass, LOTR, Harry Potter, Conan (and most other comic-based), dragons (except Reighn Of Fire) being fantasy.

But how else do you divide between fantasy and fiction?
The best horror flick of the cinema are all based one one guy, one original story, Ed Gein. (psycho, Texas chainsaw massacre, hitcher, halloween, etc) I don't see those the same as Pitch Black, Alien, Terminator, Star Wars, Firefly, Star Trek..

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Friday, December 28, 2007 12:12 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Fellowknee:

Which makes you wonder how we ever suffered through the stock footage and voice over original ending.

We part ways here. I pray for your immortal soul.

SushiChrisisall

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Friday, December 28, 2007 1:45 AM

FELLOWKNEE


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Fellowknee:

Which makes you wonder how we ever suffered through the stock footage and voice over original ending.



We part ways here. I pray for your immortal soul.

SushiChrisisall



Wait, you liked the original ending? With the footage from the beginning of The Shining and where everyone lives happily ever after? Actually, you're right, that might be a pretty good ending. I guess I'm old and cynical.

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Friday, December 28, 2007 5:52 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
I pose the idea that true science fiction remains in the purview of the written word, and that that which we call SF in movies and TV is merely fantasy, or at best, 'speculative fiction'.

Any takers?

I'm with Fellowknee that what we call science fiction is generally not about about pure science as much as using impossible settings to speculate on other issues. Human issues, mostly social ones. The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is a great example!

Thing is, for science types like me (and I'm guessing like Chris) I lose suspension of disbelief is the writer uses science poorly. I mean, if you're gonna to use space travel to set up the multi-world society you need for your story, have some respect for it! Do a little research, and at least try to make it feasible. Few recent sci-fi shows take the time to do this.

As for why the written word lends itself better to hard sci-fi... maybe the dorks who understand hard physics and such can write books, but don't get spots directing movies real often.

-----------------------------------------------
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Friday, December 28, 2007 6:08 AM

MAL4PREZ


As an example... I'm trying to remember a book... can't recall title or author, but someone else here might. It had some hard science and a fun take on politics that went something like this:

In a near-future alternate reality of our world, the superconducting super collider has been built in Texas, but somehow the smashing of super hot sub-particles calls the attention of horrible critters in some other universe, who tunnel in and eat the world.

So... our intrepid particle physicist manages to escape through another tunnel, to go back in time to our REAL reality with the express intent of getting Bush Sr and Dan Quayle in office so they'll kill the SCSC and save the world.

Brilliant. Make a movie out of that LOL!

-----------------------------------------------
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Friday, December 28, 2007 6:09 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by embers:
I'm not sure I get your distinction...

SCIENCE fiction deals with how science is applied to fiction- that is, how realistic physical laws apply to the story...movies and TV seem to abandon the realism of events and processes to tell the story efficiently and succinctly therefore letting us down in the science dept. As Finn and Citizen noted, shortcuts are taken to tell the tales, are we too dull as a mass-entertainment audience to accept the nuances of inertia, time, gravity, power curves, etc., to accept a story ensconced in minutia that is scientifically relevant?
That's all I want to explore here...



Actually, I'd challenge your definition.

The sort of sci-fi you envision, one that really explores the application of hard science (e.g. no FTL) to the world of fiction would be unimaginably dull. That's because, no offense, hard science is not all that interesting, from a narrative standpoint.

I've always maintained that truly great science fiction takes regular human drama and places it in fantastic settings such that it is fresh and different. Firefly is, of course, a great example of this. Trying to eek out a living...in space. The setting gives us a different perspective on what is, in the end, a very old story.

By the by, I've never really understood the insistence on slavishness about scientific accuracy. I always figured that if you wanted a good story, you'd read a story and overlook the not-technically-possible aspects of it, and if you wanted complete devotion to scientific accuracy, you'd read a physics textbook. If that's what you're interested in, more power to ya. But me, I like good stories.

Edited to add: I don't think it's that we're "too dull" to accept a story "ensconced in [ scientific ] minutiae." I think it's that the best stories, and the ones we like the best are about people, not about science. Sci-fi, on my view (and fantasy, too, probably), allows you to tell really interesting human stories that the "real" world otherwise wouldn't. It's not that we're too dull for minutiae. It's that we don't give a damn, because it (mostly) doesn't help tell an interesting story.

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Friday, December 28, 2007 6:09 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Fellowknee:

Wait, you liked the original ending? With the footage from the beginning of The Shining and where everyone lives happily ever after?

You SO don't understand what yer talking about here.

Time to die Chrisisall

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Friday, December 28, 2007 6:26 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:

By the by, I've never really understood the insistence on slavishness about scientific accuracy.

Y'know, I also have a problem with movies set way in the past where peeps have pearly white teeth..or movies where regular folk take punisment in stride that would KILL an Olympic athlete...colour me obsessed that way.

Detailed Chrisisall

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Friday, December 28, 2007 6:28 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:

By the by, I've never really understood the insistence on slavishness about scientific accuracy.

Y'know, I also have a problem with movies set way in the past where peeps have pearly white teeth..or movies where regular folk take punisment in stride that would KILL an Olympic athlete...colour me obsessed that way.



It must be a real drag going to the movies with you!

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Friday, December 28, 2007 6:42 AM

EMBERS


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
In responce to a post by someone in my other thread, I would say that movies like 2001, Solaris, Gattica, and Star Trek: TMP, qualify as 'real' science fiction...

If you cheer and jump, it's still just fantasy IMO.

Blue Danube Chrisisall


2001 qualifies as REAL Sci-fi?! And what doesn't....
Blade Runner
Brazil
?
I guess I'm coming to the discussion late...
was this from the Matrix thread, or something I missed?

I'm just trying to get the hang of what qualifies as SCIENCE under your definition and because it all seems fairly fantastical to me....
and too restrictive, when ultimately the physical plane of existence is an illusion and all that really exists are energy particals.....

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Friday, December 28, 2007 6:47 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:

It must be a real drag going to the movies with you!


Okay- let's analyze...example: Mission Impossible 2- I like the film, but recognize that it's pure popcorn nonsense. Imagine for a moment, Mal pulling a back-flip-kick-in-the-face on the Operative like Cruise did to that guard in MI2...tell me it wouldn't have just destroyed the drama of their physical conflict on the spot.


Little things like gravity mean so much to me Chrisisall



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Friday, December 28, 2007 6:50 AM

RIVERFLAN


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
But how else do you divide between fantasy and fiction?



Just to throw this in, I see sci-fi with the bits that don't exist in the real world being explained by "technology". Like, Firefly, Star Trek, The Matrix, those are all based on the tech avalible in the 'verse that they're set in.

Fantasy has several different characteristics. It can be fantasy because of magic, like Harry Potter. It can be fantasy because of special powers, like The Fantastic Four. It can be fantasy because of, say, vampires, faerys, demons, yada living in the real world.

Both fantasy and sci-fi can have altranate dimensions, but how you get to said dimension is how you distinguish if the story is sci-fi of fantasy.

Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:

By the by, I've never really understood the insistence on slavishness about scientific accuracy.

Y'know, I also have a problem with movies set way in the past where peeps have pearly white teeth..or movies where regular folk take punisment in stride that would KILL an Olympic athlete...colour me obsessed that way.



That makes perfect sense to me- I also get bugged about that sort of thing. I don't really ask to have an explanation of how to build a spaceship, I just want to have some right-sounding theory. Like in the Ender's Game series, how do we get these gravity machines? We stole them from the Buggers, we don't understand how they work, we just copy them.

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Friday, December 28, 2007 6:51 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by embers:

2001 qualifies as REAL Sci-fi?! And what doesn't....
Blade Runner

?

Em, I'm gonna get all RWED on your a*s in a second if you keep that tone up!
*smirks*

Just kidding Chrisisall

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Friday, December 28, 2007 7:30 AM

EMBERS


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Em, I'm gonna get all RWED on your a*s in a second if you keep that tone up!
*smirks*

Just kidding Chrisisall



I'm not trying to give you a hard time here....
oh wait, I totally am! LOL

above you said
Quote:


Little things like gravity mean so much to me Chrisisall


which is very much to the point...
because I am starting to think that that is your whole point?

So in Out of Gas is must have just driven you crazy that the gravity didn't go out on Serenity, huh?

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Friday, December 28, 2007 9:31 AM

CYBERSNARK


I'm less a fan of scientific accuracy than I am of consistency.

Think of Mystery books/films/shows. It's an important element of the genre that any clues the detective uses to solve the case must be presented to the audience. Part of the fun is being able to follow along and solve the case along with the sleuth. Sure, you could do an episode of NCIS that focuses entirely on DiNozzo's personal life, but it wouldn't work as a mystery (for that one episode, NCIS would become a drama [or a sophomoric comedy, given DiNozzo]).

I hate shows where I'm expected to just "turn off my brain and enjoy the ride." I like being able to follow along with the characters and the plot. It makes it more engaging.

That's one of the reasons I like Star Trek. Sure, the "science" is all handwaved technobabble, but it's internally consistent. If a warp drive works a certain way in TNG, then I know it'll work the same way in Voyager. When Geordi talks about bypassing the EPS distribution system to feed more power from the M/ARC into the field coils, I know what it means (he's causing shipboard brownouts and risking blowing the warp coils, or the warp manifolds, or both [which would cause flowback to rupture the main plasma conduits, which might set off the core itself and make ship go boom]).

The general concensus in showbiz is that one can either make a scientifically accurate documentary or an emotionally-engaging story, but not both. Science must, therefore, take a back seat to storytelling. It's also a factor that entertainment is made for the lowest common denominator. The people who don't know temporal mechanics from the temp who works at the garage, think silicon-based life is Pam Anderson's boobs, and wouldn't recognize Lisi's unified field theory if it started calculating nonlinear E-8 equations on their collective backside.

The argument is that they don't care about science, so neither should the storytellers. Trouble is that when storytellers do try to pay attention to science, they usually end up saying "hey, look at me being all scientifically-accurate!" That makes stupid people feel stupid, so the producers say "don't."

My argument is that, if most of the audience doesn't care about science, then it shouldn't matter if the science is good. It certainly won't hurt them, as long as we remember that the focus should always be on the characters and the plot, not the foundations and window dressing.

I think it's more fun, both as a writer and as an audience member, to have that clearly-defined set of rules that lets me follow what the characters are doing. It doesn't necessarily need to be explained(*), just so long as it does make sense.

This might be why I'm such a fan of supplemental material (like RPGs, web-content, and tie-in novels) --they allow all that stuff to be explained without tying up screentime.

(* That's my problem with a lot of cyberpunk --let's break this pulse-pounding chase sequence to explain how cybernetic muscular enhancements work, how they've altered cultural mores and regulations involving athletics and medicine, and how our characters are tracking each other through a hyper-reality "head's up display" digitally overlayed onto their retinas. Okay, done? Back to the chase sequence three chapters later.)

I mean, dramatic, exciting events happen in real life, which most certainly does have a rigid set of scientific laws (some of which we don't quite understand, but they exist nonetheless --they have to). There's no reason why they should be thrown out in order for a story to be "dramatic."

If I have a story in New York, I won't have someone walk from the Statue of Liberty to the Empire State Building. I doesn't mean I need to explain that there's water in the way, the ferry schedule, the city layout, its history, the significance of Lady Libby and the Empire State, or the effect of 9/11 on inner-city travel. It just means that time will pass between scenes, and my character will be spotted getting out of a cab or a bus.

I mean, the story isn't about Geordi rewiring the ship's plasma flow pattern, it's about the fact that we're getting shot at, and have to rely on desperate measures to keep ourselves alive. It's not about how cyberization affects society, it's about a cop chasing a bad guy. Yet the fact that it's possible to know what's going on off-screen helps make the world of the show seem more like a real world, populated by real people --which is perhaps the primary goal of any storyteller.

Someone once asked Alfred Hitchcock why he didn't make Westerns. His answer was to admit that he had no idea what a good hat cost in the old west. Without that kind of attention to detail, a film ceases to be a work of art and becomes simple product.

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Friday, December 28, 2007 10:00 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Cybersnark:
Someone once asked Alfred Hitchcock why he didn't make Westerns. His answer was to admit that he had no idea what a good hat cost in the old west. Without that kind of attention to detail, a film ceases to be a work of art and becomes simple product.

Great post, cybersnark. I was right with you... until I got to this point LOL! Really, I agree that the characters and plot are the main focus of entertaining stories, and consistency is key. You covered that well.

But if a detail like the cost of a hat is so very important, how about science-y details? I'm just saying, a true work of sci-fi art will marry the pseudo-science and the character/plot/theme, and not just use the funky setting as an excuse for big CGI.

Taking the time to put the characters and plot into a scientifically feasible setting without the three pages of cyberpunk explanation (*yawn*) is where the art comes into it. It can be done without being heavy-handed or intellectually condescending. Just takes thought and creativity. Well... and the writer has to care. There's no rule that says the writer has to give a fig about feasibility. Put in a good space ship chase and a few explosions and the holes in the plot go away! Seems lost of writers go for that method these days...

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Friday, December 28, 2007 4:28 PM

TRAVELER


I would say each of us may define science fiction as we understand it. There was a time I would go to a book store and there would be a fantasy section and a science fiction section, now when I go to buy a book I see the two combined. The book stores don't bother exploring the difference. Of course there is also the science fiction that has plausable science in it, like simple space flight, to make it a possible future and then there is science fiction that has science that is still pure theory, like time travel, and may prove impossible or never be proved.

So I leave it up to the reader.

If anyone has read Felicity Savages's works like "Humility Garden" and "Delta City" they may place them in either fantasy or science fiction.

It may be that our Universe is created to have all possibilities. There may not be any limits. I'm still scratching my head at String Theory. Have not got a grasp of that one and probably never will.


http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Friday, December 28, 2007 6:52 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by embers:

So in Out of Gas is must have just driven you crazy that the gravity didn't go out on Serenity, huh?

I believe that the ships are designed with exotic matter in the lowest hull, providing the 'pull' of Earth-norm gravity without need of a power source. At least, that's my fanboy way of circumventing any annoyance with it. I love our BDH's way too much to let a little science flub stand in the way...

Flexible Chrisisall

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Friday, December 28, 2007 7:03 PM

EMBERS


actually I don't think of it so much as a flub, as a lack of budget...
getting rid of gravity is REALLY expensive!

so we can make up our own excuses (I asked one of the Zoic team and he said that he liked to think at Mal had some magnetic boots on or maybe the artificial gravity some how lasts for a few hours after the power goes out or or or....).

It is easy to excuse the bad Science on the shows we love,
we are ready and willing to come up with theories
(in fact we LOVE thinking up theories)

But when we don't love the show, we are ready to use as the reason for rejecting what is really just a lousy story.

Or that is my theory.

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Saturday, December 29, 2007 6:12 AM

CYBERSNARK


Power never went completely out in OoG (that we saw, anyway). There were still emergency lights and monitors showing static. It'd make sense that artigrav is designed to be the absolute last thing to die ('cause having gravity would make it easier to repair just about anything else).

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Saturday, December 29, 2007 11:00 AM

BADKARMA00


I think I see what you're getting at Chris, and if I do, then I agree.

Novels are much more detailed in actual 'workings' of whatever is involved, whereas in movies and TV those things are, at best, used only as a moment of anxiety, i.e. the catalyser in OoG.

And, sadly, I think you're right. We're in too much of hurry to want a longer film that might be more entertaining. Me, personally? I would willing have set through four hours of Serenity, without a worry. But most aren't that way.

If I'm wrong about what you had in mind, then. . . well, I'm just wrong, ain't I

Bad_karma

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Saturday, December 29, 2007 12:14 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
I pose the idea that true science fiction remains in the purview of the written word, and that that which we call SF in movies and TV is merely fantasy, or at best, 'speculative fiction'.

Any takers?

Finninspiredthistopicisall




Pheew!

Wouldn't really know what the definitve sci-fi rules and lores are. Also I'm not sure i'd want them (should they exsist) adhered to so rigidly either. Part of what I like about the sci-fi genre (as I understand it) is that it follows a current, usually, scientific trend and then propelles it, specutalively, to where it may possibly go. Within that, the fears and ethics of modern day thinking are juxtaposed with the narrative to put you as a viewer into a position of thinking. Now sometimes those narratives can be cerebral and astute, such as THE ANDROMEDA STRAIN and sometimes they can be losely held together with science to take the audience on a good fun yarn; THE ISLAND though holding little scientific credibility. Both I enjoy. Now are you saying they not be sci-fi? And why not?

I personally have a soft spot for 50's sci-fi. How true to the genre it is I do not know, as I am not an avid reader of sci-fi, in fact I find sci-fi very hard to engage with when I'm reading it. However one thing I wanted to establish is to what extent you regard science as 'science fact'. Because science regularly evolves and re-thinks itself. And presently we are in an age of science where theories are actually undertaken under science-fiction in order to establish science fact... Anyway that aside you may have a point that much sci-fi in film, is just glossed action, and that sci-fi, true sci-fi, can never leave the page... Maybe.

So long as no-one goes making sci-fi musicals I'm good!




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Saturday, December 29, 2007 11:21 PM

EMMAZULE


Quote:

Originally posted by Fellowknee:
Hmmmm...seems to me like you fellows are making up a genre. From my halcyon days of youth I seem to remember that Science Fiction or Sci-Fi is the pejorative description. Most writers preferred speculative fiction, which seems like a better description as the focus (even in Asimov and Clark) isn't really on science which would make these novels into extended Scientific American articles, but in exploring humanity either in the future, following some current trend in human development, or in contact with something new and different, or as an allegory for some aspect of humanity. This speculation on human society makes them into stories.



"The years no doubt have changed me" says SF and fantasy. :P They are not making these terms up, they're just using more current usages of them.

I grew up loving and watching and reading all branches of SF and fantasy, in fact, I also happened to grow up during the '90s, which, despite how much they're maligned for youthful slacking and shallowness, were more experimental and more willing to try new things than people give them credit for (up until 1999, at least...). I also currently hang out in an SF group or two online, and actually keep up with developments and terminology (for instance, Firefly/Serenity is a relatively Naturalistic-style Space Western, while The Adventures of Brisco County, Jr was an anachronism-happy Science Fiction Western with a lot of Steampunk elements... just to name a couple examples of the often bizarrely obscure terms I know).

THIS is how the terms break down NOW, including the best explanations I can come up with:

Science Fiction, often abbreviated to SF - no longer pejorative in the US (though apparently it's still got a stigma in parts of Europe, such as France), but still not as cool as "Fantasy", except when a show really is a fantasy but wants to pretend it's not severely twisting its science around (like Heroes does with genetics and evolution :P). It's either all fiction that speculates on changes to what we know as reality (including Alternate History), or all fiction that is based off of speculative uses of science, depending on who you ask. Some people prefer to consider it "true" Science Fiction only if it lacks Fantasy elements, i.e. is truly "Hard" Science Fiction (see below). Some people in fandom still feel it has too many stigmas attached to it, though, and thus prefer to use...

Speculative Fiction - depending on who you ask, this is either a term that covers all fiction that speculates on differences in reality (Fantasy, Alternate History, all variations of Science Fiction, Magical Realism, etc.), OR an alternate and less-stigmatized term for Science Fiction, OR... a really pretentious term that only snobs use, and then only because they don't actually want to come out and say that they write Science Fiction and/or Fantasy. Some of the older members of fandom use it to avoid older stigmas with the term Science Fiction that existed at the time of this term's creation, while younger members are more likely to either use it as (an admittedly more useful) umbrella term, or to not use it at all because it sounds too snobby. As I recall, both Phillip Pullman and Robert Heinlein prefer or preferred this term, but Asimov actually really disliked it, and preferred the more straightforward term Science Fiction to describe most of his work.

Sci-Fi,Sci-fi, or SciFi - the Unwashed Masses(TM) don't always realize this, but this somewhat diminutive shorthand for Science Fiction is not only the kind of thing that will annoy countless other fans at any given SF con, but is also often mocked, in the form of pronouncing it "Skiffy" (which I've always thought was silly an immature, but oh well). I believe the term was coined by Fred Pohl, in a mirroring of "Hi-Fi", but it sounded so goofy that most serious fans ended up avoiding it like the plague. There's two general perceptions of this term in the parts of fandom that care about this kind of thing: 1.) No real SF fan should EVER use this term, it's childish and insulting and offensive and makes you sound stupid. 2.) It's usable, but only applies to lighter Soft Science Fiction. Asimov's and Heinlein's stuff are SF under this interpretation, while Stargate is more likely to fall under SciFi. This latter interpretation is, in my experience, often seen under the areas of fandom that aren't as hardcore SF, but still respect SF, such as comics fandom.

Hard Science Fiction - is the kind of stuff described in the OP, actually - stuff where the science is very explicitly explained and at the time it's written, considered reasonably plausible. Analog Science Fiction & Fact ONLY publishes this kind of stuff. A lot of it is a bit dry or boring, but the amount of knowledge and research needed to write it often garners some bit of respect. A good enough writer can pull it off without it being boring, too, for instance in the story "Bow Shock" (featured in "The Best of Jim Baen's Universe 2006" hardcover collection). But it's hard. :P Don't call it "SciFi" in front of the fanboys, it'll annoy the hell out of them.

"Soft" Science Fiction - This is almost (and often outright is) slightly pejorative, and therefore much more rarely used. It's also very vague. Anything that isn't very obviously "Hard" Science Fiction might well be "soft" SF or SciFi - you recall of course, the slight stigma the term SciFi carries as not being a serious work? Yeah, exactly. Some do try to use this as an earnest descriptor for non-Hard SF that has say, more focus on characters than science. The Stargate series is often cited as a perfectly entertaining "Soft" or "Medium Hard" SF series (a less offensive term, "Medium Hard" is used to describe stories that are not 100% Hard SF, but nor are they complete fantasies nor do they ignore science completely).

Fantasy - anything that isn't explicitly Science Fiction might well be fantasy. Except, because of the prevelence of science and tech in our everyday lives, and because of the large number of authors that just plain read and write both genres, sometimes SF elements pop up in "Fantasy" series. In fact, this is an increasingly popular trend, possibly because Harry Potter has made Fantasy cool again, but publishers are still wary of some readers attaching a stigma to Science Fiction.

In Eoin Colfer's Artemis Fowl books, for instance, the Fairies have advanced technology, including powerful weapons, satellites, computers, etc. In The Dresden Files, the magical aura around wizards that causes machines to screw up is explained as generating an electromagnetic field, while Diane Duane's Young Wizards Series books smack together mythology, folklore and mystical epic fantasy with relatively Hard SF (all objects are sentient and often sapient, but you have things like characters visiting other planets and having to bring a bubble of Earth-like atmosphere with them; wizards themselves are fighting entropy; and wizardry basically involves learning the coding language of the universe, and becoming skilled enough in its variations to reprogram time and space). Even Harry Potter features a minor SF element - Rowling's said on her site that wizards have a gene that gives them their abilities, and it's dominant to boot.

So, yeah.

Personally, I'm fond of the shorthand Spec Fic, which is rarer but can be found in a few places on occasion. It has the potential for being a handy umbrella term for all SF and Fantasy and SF/Fantasy-esque stories (which basically describes everything I read and write...), while sounding less snobby and more informal than the full term "Speculative Fiction". :)

You'll find that there's a lot of confusion if you use the term Speculative Fiction without explaining which usage you use, though. Fandom is still kind of divided on how to use it, even though as far as I can tell, MOST of fandom WANTS to use it as an umbrella term, but nobody wants to confuse anybody else too much. It's kind of complicated.


~Emma


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Sunday, December 30, 2007 9:04 AM

EMBERS


I got Serenity Found (the latest book of essays edited by Jane Espenson) for Christmas, and started reading it last night.... and the very first essay is exactly on this topic!

Orson Scott Card's essay wouldn't even dignify most of TV and movie Sci-fi as speculative, so much as poorly written and just for the masses (people who don't really read or care about REAL Sci-fi)....
Have you read it?
I encourage you to just pick up the book (ie you can read it in the store, you don't have to buy!) and read that first essay if you haven't because I think you'll find a kindred spirit there....

Of course when I read the second essay I'll probably want to share that one too!

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Sunday, December 30, 2007 12:56 PM

FELLOWKNEE


Thanks Emmazule. That was a really informative piece of writing. Although the fact that I fit into the old speculative fiction generation has suddenly made me feel ancient....Maybe I should buy a red sports car! Yeah that would make me feel better.
Thanks again

Fellowknee

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Sunday, December 30, 2007 1:04 PM

RALLEM


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
I pose the idea that true science fiction remains in the purview of the written word, and that that which we call SF in movies and TV is merely fantasy, or at best, 'speculative fiction'.

Any takers?

Finninspiredthistopicisall




Speculative Fiction is any fiction where the reality of the story is originated from an author's mind, so that is science fiction among many other genres.


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Sunday, December 30, 2007 1:53 PM

RALLEM


Here is little Christmas story I wrote a couple years ago for the Speculative Fiction Writers Club I belong to. Snugglebunny and Swyzzlestyx are two pen names I use.

Quote:

A Christmas Story on Planet X
By Snugglebunny Claus

For a good part of the Twentieth Century, it was commonly believed that there were nine planetary bodies, one asteroid belt, and two comet belts that orbited the star called Sol. The names of these bodies were as follows; Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, the Asteroid belt, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, the Kuiper belt, Pluto, and the Oort cloud. Early in the Twenty-First Century, a new planetary body was found. That new planetary body, named Sedna, exhibited some unusual characteristics which required further explanation. A hasty mission was implemented naming the target, Planet X.


Commander Buck Dodgers prepared to land his interplanetary skiff onto the newly discovered planetoid that orbited near the Oort cloud. Buck suspected that he was given this mission as a joke, due to his name, because it wasn’t his turn to fly an interplanetary jump. The Scientists at headquarters insisted that the pilot whom was supposed to fly this mission was ill, and couldn’t make it. Buck reasoned with them that he wasn’t the next in rotation, but they countered with a response that was un-arguable, even if he didn’t want to fly this mission. They said that the small rotation of pilots at their disposal, were either preparing for other scheduled missions, or recovering from those that were completed too recently, and their health couldn’t be risked. They promised Buck that this mission won’t have any adverse affects on his rotation, so in layman’s terms he was getting an extra flight this year for free. The truth is that Buck loved these missions so much; that if someone was getting a laugh back home, it didn’t really matter to him.

The main reason for Buck’s certainty of this joke is that his entire stay in the academy was peppered with either Duck Dodgers’ the cartoon, or Buck Rogers’s the fictional hero jokes. Not only from his fellow classmates, but also from the cadre, the scientists, and the people at command. Buck had to grin and bare it, but secretly he often cursed his Mom and Dad for saddling him with this name. Heck, Dodgers wasn’t even his family’s traditional last name, it was Smith from back East, but when his father moved to Los Angeles he changed it to Dodgers so he could assume a western identity. Another reason for Buck’s certainty of this joke was his pronounced speech impediment. Well, Buck reasoned with himself, “They may be getting a laugh back home, but I am the one getting to fly this mission and nothing can be more pleasant than that.” Buck had the landing gears lowered, and his retro rockets were automatically firing to make a smooth landing, but then he noticed something odd. Buck’s skiff was using an inordinate amount of fuel for this landing. This puzzled Buck, but right now he had other things to worry about. These landings were all pre-programmed to be automatic, but Buck had witnessed what happens to pilots whom assume they will be, and drop their guard. Buck wasn’t going to let that happen here, so even though his skiff was performing flawlessly, he remained attentive just in case.

Buck’s skiff did land perfectly on the small, cold and dark planetoid, that was named Planet X for this mission, but the amount of fuel it burned to do so, was alarming. Buck made some calculations regarding the amount of fuel burnt, and according to them he just made a landing on a planet with a gravitational pull of one, which was impossible for a planetoid this small with so little mass, but the fact was he burnt the fuel. Buck made some other calculations in his head using a gravitational pull of one for the launch, and as long as nothing else went wrong, he should be able to do it, but his little trip to Pluto on the way back was off. Buck then began to prepare the quantum communications system to tell the people back home the news. While preparing the communications system, buck thought, These new quantum systems are awesome, and soon we’ll have engines that use tachyons too. Then we’ll be able to make interstellar jumps, and I can’t wait for then. Buck spoke up, “Base, this is Commander Dodgers, radio check over.” He then waited a moment for the response, and soon it came.
“Commander Dodgers, this is Base, we read you loud and clear, over.”

“Base, this is Commander Dodgers, I have landed safely on Planet X, but have burnt an inordinate amount of fuel doing so, break. I have done some calculations on the amount of fuel burnt, and they indicate a gravitational pull of one, over.”

A moment later the response came, “Commander Dodgers, this is Base, we suspected that because of the affects the planetoid has on the nearby comet belt, break. Please be advised, the observed size, and calculated mass do not concur with the registered affects on the comet belt, break. We would like you to explore Planet X, and determine why that planetoid emits a gravitational pull of one, over.”

Buck sat there a moment to let the message sink in. “Base, this is Commander Dodgers, I copy that you want me to leave my ship and explore the planetoid, break. I also copy that you want me to explore for any reasons why Planet X emits a gravitational pull of one, break. Base, do you have any theories to assist me in detecting the cause for the artificial gravitational pull? Over.”

A moment later, “Commander Dodgers, this is Base, that is a negative, good luck, over.”

“Base, this is Commander Dodgers; I will be switching to a mobile communicator, after I change into a space suit, so expect a test in a few minutes, over.” Buck got dressed in a space suit designed for long excursions away from his ship, and exited his skiff.

As soon as Buck got outside his skiff, he noticed that the gravitational pull was similar to Earth’s, so he noted that for a future report. Buck thought about grabbing a personal rocket pack for the scouting mission, but then thought it would be unwise with the looming gravitational mystery. When Buck walked a suitable distance from his skiff, so that he could still see it, but yet the ship’s mass could neither assist nor detract from his transmission, he gave a communications check. “Base, this is Commander Dodgers from a mobile communicator, can you read me? Over.”

Buck again waited a moment for the response. “Commander Dodgers, this is Base, we read you loud and clear, over.”

“Base, this is Commander Dodgers, the physical effects on my person from the gravitational pull, are similar to Earth’s, break. I will be conducting experiments on the atmosphere, wait for the results, over.” Buck pulled a device from the belt of his suit and began taking readings with it. He then began performing a series of tests and checks to confirm his findings. “Base, this is Commander Dodgers, be advised that the atmosphere is similar to a pre-industrial Earth, break. Also be advised that the temperature reading is negative two degrees Celsius, over.”

A few moments later a response was given, “Commander Dodgers, this is Base, can you confirm those readings, over?” “Base, this is Commander Dodgers; I have calibrated my sensor array, checked it, and then re-checked the calibrations, break. I have also rechecked my readings, and can only try again, with another sensor array when I get back to the ship, over.”

“Commander Dodgers, this is Base, we copy, over.”

After Buck finished his readings and transmissions, he prepared to walk in a series of clockwise circular paths near his ship, making them form a clockwise circular path around his ship, so he could be sure that a complete scouting of his skiff’s area was done, but as soon as he started his walk, Buck noticed a glimmer in the distance. Buck raised the power of his in-suit visual aid until the distance between him and the glimmer seemed to fade away, but Buck was still unable to discern what was causing it, so he decided to walk in the glimmer’s general direction. “Base, this is Commander Dodgers, I have detected a glimmering object approximately two point three kilometers from my current location, and am going to investigate, over.” Buck began walking before he heard their affirmative response. Buck walked for what seemed like a couple kilometers, but he couldn’t be sure, since keeping a pace count in this rocky terrain was difficult, and he felt that keeping his mind on the problem at hand was more important than on a pace count. Buck knew that if needed he could always find his ship through the in suit navigation system, and could get the exact distance walked from it as well, but more importantly, if needed he could always call his skiff to him. Buck thought about that, and wondered how it would affect his fuel though, and couldn’t seem to get his head around the calculations, so he dropped the subject. When Buck came just short of his destination, he stopped to observe, but was still unable to see the cause of the glimmer. Buck decided to proceed cautiously, just in case. When Buck came around a huge boulder along his path, he noticed what was causing the glimmer. It was a large golden pole in a clearing that had wires leading from the top to the ground at about a thirty degree angle. On the wires were what looked like red, green, and blue metallic flags. Nearby the pole was a little humanoid dressed in green, and wearing a legionnaire style helmet. The little humanoid was crouched, and working on something. Buck hung his head, thinking of the similarities to the Duck Dodgers jokes he endured at the academy, and wondered if this was somehow a part of the joke he just knew was being played on him. Buck began to walk slowly and quietly towards the little humanoid. Just short of where the humanoid was crouched, Buck stopped, and listened to him mumble in a high pitched voice. Buck then decided to introduce himself. “Excuse me,” said Buck.

The little humanoid turned his head in surprise, and bolted off behind a rock. Buck stayed put. A few moments later, Buck saw the little humanoid stick his head out inquisitively from the other side. Buck used slow and unthreatening motions as he said, “I won’t hurt you, please come out.” The little humanoid waited for the words to sink in, then slowly began to emerge from behind the rock, and approached Buck cautiously. Buck asked, “Can you understand me?”

The little humanoid paused again, looked at Buck with an odd expression, and then said, “Of course.”

“You speak English?” Bucked asked.

“Yes,” said the little humanoid with a matter of fact tonality to his voice.

Buck was puzzled, so he asked, “Why do you speak English?” The little humanoid thought about that for a moment and answered, “Because you speak and understand English, I speak and understand English.”

“So if I spoke German, you would speak German?” Bucked quizzed.

“Yes,” said the little humanoid. Buck thought about that, and shook his head in the affirmative. Buck paused a little longer, then asked in a leading tone, “Is your name Marvin, and are you a Martian?”

“No, and no,” answered the little humanoid. “My name is Hermey, and I am an elf.”

After a minute of silence between the two, Buck asked, “What would an elf named Hermey be doing on Planet X?”

“My job,” said Hermey.

“What is your job Hermey?” “I can’t answer that question, but for the answer you will need to follow me to my Boss,” said Hermey.

“Sure,” said Buck, “but please wait a minute while I transmit. Base, this is Commander Dodgers, I have discovered the cause of the glimmer, please wait while I investigate, over.”

A fairly quick response came, “Commander Dodgers, this is Base and we copy that you have discovered the cause of the glimmer and need to investigate, over.”

Buck motioned for Hermey to lead the way. Hermey took the lead, and mumbled, “The Boss has been expecting you.”

Buck and the elf walked to a well defined cave, not far from where Hermey was crouched just a few minutes ago. They entered the cave and walked to a round wooden door painted green. Hermey opened the door and motioned for Buck to enter. Hermey entered the doorway after Buck, closed the door, and then lead him to another doorway. “Please wait here,” asked Hermey, as he entered and closed the doorway behind him. Several minutes later, Hermey returned and said, “Please follow me.” The two of them entered a cavernous room where many elves similar to Hermey, but without helmets were working laboriously at long benches, and a larger fat man sat in a chair on the other end of the room.

The two of them walked towards the man in the chair, and stopped before it. “Hello little Bucky!” said the man in the chair.

What the Heck, thought Buck, I haven’t been called Bucky, since I was a child, and even then only by some Shopping Store Employee in a suit.

Hermey walked away from Buck and the fat man, towards a bench. Buck gazed at Hermey while he walked away. “Never mind him Bucky, he has to get to work after setting up the holiday pole as I requested.” Buck looked back to the fat man in the chair, and thought about what he just said. “Hi,” said Buck inquisitively to the fat man in the chair. “Who are you?”

“Ahh, how quickly they forget,” said the fat man, “I am Santa Claus.”

Buck stood there for a couple moments in a stupor, and then he looked around at the elves. “Sure you are,” said Buck as he returned his gaze to Santa, “but why are you here on Planet X, and not at the North Pole?”

Santa shrugged his shoulders and then looked down as if to remember something specific. “Well, since the discovery of flight by man, it was impossible keeping my location a secret, so I had to find a different place where I wouldn’t be found.” said Santa as he returned his stare on Buck.

“Oh!” said Buck. “Have I ruined your secret?”

“Well, that depends on you Bucky,” said Santa, “you could tell a story that would keep my secret.”

Buck fidgeted before asking, “Umm.” “May I ask you some questions?”

“Sure,” said Santa encouragingly.

“How did you get here, get this planetoid so warm, and get its gravitational pull to equal Earth’s?”

“Ahh,” said Santa, “there is only one answer, and it is the same as how I get all the toys to the children, it is pure magic my boy.”

Buck shook his head in the affirmative as if this all made sense to him, and oddly enough it was beginning to. “Do the elves need helmets outside?” asked Buck.

“No,” replied Santa, and then added, “That’s just Hermey,” as Santa made circular motions with his forefinger towards his temple. “He makes friends with the reindeer,” added Santa.

“Ahh,” said Buck. “What do you do with the holiday pole?” asked Buck. “Well, I don’t do anything with it, but the elves celebrate Christmas around it,” answered Santa.

“The elves celebrate Christmas?” asked Buck.

“Of course,” said Santa, “it’s their one day off a year, so they have an extra merry celebration.”

“One day a year off, isn’t that pushing them too hard?” asked Buck.

“Oh no, it’s what elves do,” answered Santa, “and it doesn’t take any pushing from me.” “I just direct their efforts,” added Santa.

Buck stood there looking around to survey the situation, and gather his thoughts. “Can any of your magic help me Santa?”

“How do you mean?” asked Santa with a glimmer in his eye.

“Well, I’ve already reported that the gravitational pull here was equal to that of Earth’s, and that the atmosphere was equal to a pre-industrial Earth. The people at base already expected the gravity because of the effects this planetoid has on the nearby comet belt, but they didn’t believe me when I told them about the atmospheric conditions. I was asked to explore for a reason why this planetoid had the gravity it did. I need an explanation for base that will keep mankind from this planetoid.”

“Ahh,” said Santa, “we need to sit and think this one out.” Santa paused. “I find that cookies and milk always helps in situations like this,” said Santa, “would you like some?” as cookies and milk magically appeared before them.

“Yes,” said Buck, as he grabbed some cookies and milk and sat down at Santa’s feet.

The two of them sat chewing cookies and drinking milk. After a few minutes, Santa muttered, “The number of people who believe in me has dropped drastically.”

“Uh,” said Buck.

“In the United States of America, I am only believed in by seventy percent of the people.”

“Is it that high?” asked Buck.

“Uh,” said Santa. They both chewed their cookies for a few minutes. “Do you still believe in me Bucky?”

Buck stopped chewing for a moment, and thought about it. “I can see you, can’t I?” answered Buck.

“Ho, Ho, Ho, that’s my boy, Ho, Ho, Ho!” Santa then settled down, and looked at Buck with a serious expression, “I have the solution to our dilemma. We’ll leave this building, and you’ll call your ship to us,” said Santa.

“Yes?” asked Buck. “Then you’ll gather another sensor array and I’ll make it so the data on it paints a grim picture,” said Santa. “What about the gravity?” asked Buck.

“Well,” said Santa, “The Scientists will find their data has been corrupted, and when they look again the planetoid won’t have any affect on the comets.” “What about their memories?” asked Buck.

“Swiped clean,” said Santa.

“Will I have enough fuel to get home with my ship after I call it here?” asked Buck.

“Yes,” said Santa, “and you’ll have exactly what you were supposed to for a planet of this size and mass, when you get back.”

“Great,” said Buck, “let’s get started right away,” as the two men jumped into action.

After Buck’s Skiff landed near the two men just outside of Santa’s cave and the two men performed their tasks, Buck radioed the bad news to the base of operations back home, and turned to say good bye to Santa. “I promise you an extra special Christmas this year Bucky, because you’ve been an extra good boy. Ho, Ho, Ho!”

“Bye Santa,” said Buck with a smile, “and thank you, but this will be the most special day of my life, because I got to meet you.”

There was a pause between the two men. “Thank you for saying that Bucky, but you do know, that you’ll never get to tell anyone that you met me?”

“Yes sir,” said Buck.

“I can’t tell you what will be under your Christmas tree, because I don’t want to spoil the surprise, but I promise it will be the best Christmas you’ve ever had, and every year will just get better.” said Santa.

“Do you want to know something funny?” asked Buck.

“Of course,” answered Santa.

Buck blushed from embarrassment, and then added, “I thought this whole mission was a joke being played on me, because of my name.”

Santa looked at Buck with an expression of understanding, and said, “It was Bucky, it was my joke that I put in your employer’s and co-worker’s minds.” Santa paused then added, “I wanted to see you, and no one else.” Buck let Santa’s words sink in, then turned away and entered the cockpit of his skiff. While Buck prepared his ship for take off, Santa entered his cave, shut the door, and began to make the final preparations on Buck’s new interstellar ship for Christmas. The engines of Buck’s skiff came to life and after only a moment for them to reach the desired temperature, the ship began to shake violently as it rose into outer space at an incredible rate of speed. The details of the mission Buck just completed were getting foggy to him already, but Buck wasn’t bothered too much, because small, cold, and desolate planetoids like Sedna never had anything interesting to report. Besides his ship would have all the recordings. Buck set a course for a quick tour of the planet Pluto on his way home.

Ho, Ho, Ho, I hope you all have a very merry Christmas
All characters, locations, and devices in this story are fictional, and any resemblance to other Characters, locations, and devices, real or fictional is purely intentional.



I understand it is not all that good, but I htought it would be nice to share it never the less.



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Sunday, December 30, 2007 2:03 PM

RIVERFLAN


I'd just like to say that even if you have some sci-fi elements in a fantasy novel, it's still fantasy, and should be counted as such.

And I think that a lot of people here are getting carried away with labels. There's no point to having millions of different labels, just a few major subgroupings actually describing the book. For example, the system I use:

Fiction
_____Fantasy
________Urban Fantasy
________Medieval fantasy
________Fururistic fantasy
________Altranate dimension fantasy
_____Science fiction (Sci-fi)
________Futuristic sci-fi
__________Involving aliens
__________Not involving aliens
________Altranate dimension sci-fi
_____Realistic fiction
_____Altranate History
________Ancient
________Medieval
________Relitively recent

Isn't that simple, and not having to involve a lot of debate? I'm sorry, but I hate people having large, complex debates over issues that can be put in a few simple words. Call me simple-minded, but that's the way I am.

Edit: Added the lines, cause the tab button didn't work and when I tried spaces, when posted it didn't show the spaces


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Sunday, December 30, 2007 2:18 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by embers:
So in Out of Gas is must have just driven you crazy that the gravity didn't go out on Serenity, huh?


I know it's already been pointed out, but would somebody somewhere explain to me why the gravity not going out is any more problematic than the the fact the lights didn't go out? They were without an engine and without life support. To our knowledge neither of those things is in any way related to the gravity so there is no logical reason I can think of to believe that that the gravity should have gone out. In spite of that many if not most here seem to think the gravity should have gone out.

So, going on the assumption the rest of you are not irrational, there must be a rational reason I have not thought of which would mean that the failure of things apparently unrelated gravity would cause gravity to fail. What is this reason?

-

Anyway, I know I'm a bit late to the conversation, but as it was taught to me sci fi is anything that either:
1 Can happen based on our current understanding of the laws of physics (or more accurately was believed to be physically possible at the time the sci-fi thing was made.)
2 Can be passed off as if it is possible under our current understanding of the laws of physics or under a reasonable modification of said laws.

No spaceships needed, no explanations needed (long or otherwise), though they can help if the fiction is trying to force things on you that are clearly fantasy (like the impossibility transporters being covered via a Heisenberg Compensator.) Of course this defintion covers much of contemporary fiction and historical fiction but at least the contemporary part can be ruled out by saying sci-fi is fiction set in a world not our own such that it obeys the above restrictions.

When I was taught that defintion I was also taught that Fantasy is something set in a world that neither follows the laws of physics as we know them, nor is it made to appear to follow the laws of physics as we know them (usually due to magic.)

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Sunday, December 30, 2007 2:53 PM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:

Quote:

Originally posted by embers:

So in Out of Gas is must have just driven you crazy that the gravity didn't go out on Serenity, huh?


I know it's already been pointed out, but would somebody somewhere explain to me why the gravity not going out is any more problematic than the the fact the lights didn't go out? They were without an engine and without life support. To our knowledge neither of those things is in any way related to the gravity so there is no logical reason I can think of to believe that that the gravity should have gone out. In spite of that many if not most here seem to think the gravity should have gone out.



Gravity, strange as it sounds, almost seems like a trivial matter in the 'Verse. Could be as simple as electrically fueled gravity mats sewn into the hull, or some such. Well, whatever causes gravity to exert itself, little energy for it seems required. At least I think we can be pretty much certain gravity is not generated by some sort of spinning ring, or a huge, artificially created mass with astroniomically high power needs. There's still electrical power on the boat, so, within the assumption that artificial gravity is a pretty 'low-key' function in their day, I see no reason why gravity would have to fail.

Life-support, however, is a different matter. Like the man said,

"Engine don't turn, life support won't function, we don't breathe."

Well, it wouldn't necessarily be my design, lol, but on cheaper model ship it makes sense to connect any kind of venting system directly to the rotation of the engine (like is often done in cars). This design, of course, like life-support, is based on the assumption that the wheel never stops turning. :) Which is why I would design it a mite different my own self (like I would run it probably off a separate generator). But way it is is the way it is: catalyzer's broke, and they're up shit-creek without air.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Sunday, December 30, 2007 4:05 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by asarian:
Life-support, however, is a different matter. Like the man said,

"Engine don't turn, life support won't function, we don't breathe."

Well, it wouldn't necessarily be my design, lol, but on cheaper model ship it makes sense to connect any kind of venting system directly to the rotation of the engine (like is often done in cars). This design, of course, like life-support, is based on the assumption that the wheel never stops turning. :) Which is why I would design it a mite different my own self (like I would run it probably off a separate generator). But way it is is the way it is: catalyzer's broke, and they're up shit-creek without air.


I don't think the design was quite as nearsighted as you make out.

There was, apparently, a back up life support system meant to ensure they would breathe even if the engine didn't turn. The fact that it wasn't an explosion proof back up life support system, and would appear to have been harder to fix than the engine itself (since Kaylee wrote it off well before she determined the engine couldn't be fixed) doesn't make it an ideal back up, but it did exist.

The implication is that whoever designed the Firefly class vessel recognized that the engine might not always turn and did set up life support on a separate generator, just in case. They just didn't do it with main life support, but they did do it.

[Edited and Added:] It seems that the more sleep I miss the less correct and more phonetic my spelling becomes. I apologize if I've left any such mistakes in as I know some people here hate it when people use a homophone instead of the correct spelling.

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Sunday, December 30, 2007 8:26 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


I always thought it goofy that Joss is writing a scifi verse with things that do not yet exist, but considers mind-reading, psychics, precognition to be "fantasy" although already proven in our current time.

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Monday, December 31, 2007 12:55 AM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by christhecynic:

There was, apparently, a back up life support system meant to ensure they would breathe even if the engine didn't turn. The fact that it wasn't an explosion proof back up life support system, and would appear to have been harder to fix than the engine itself (since Kaylee wrote it off well before she determined the engine couldn't be fixed) doesn't make it an ideal back up, but it did exist.

The implication is that whoever designed the Firefly class vessel recognized that the engine might not always turn and did set up life support on a separate generator, just in case. They just didn't do it with main life support, but they did do it.



Well, Mal does mention having the auxilliary life-support system, but Kaylee says: "No. We don't. It ain't even on. Explosion musta knocked it out." So I guess you're right. :)


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Monday, December 31, 2007 6:00 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
I always thought it goofy that Joss is writing a scifi verse with things that do not yet exist, but considers mind-reading, psychics, precognition to be "fantasy" although already proven in our current time.

Oh yeah - I just saw that article in Science magazine...

*scratches head*



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