GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Unpopular Opinions

POSTED BY: LEXAN
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 8, 2008 06:53
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Monday, June 25, 2007 11:15 AM

ANNUETTE


I'm not gonna go into my choice of pairins, purely becase i can't be arsed to defend them but i will share the one thing I reckon would have happened had Serenity continued-or even after the movie.

I think Kaylee would have become bored by Simon.

I think after the movie it would have been all sex and fun but i just think it would have fizzelled out. I also think Kaylee would have been the one to end the relationship.

But, going by the series, I'm not so sure. I waver both ways. I think she may have got bored with chasing him, or rather making advances and having him accidently reject them. Or she would have found a new interest.

I do sometimes wonder if Tracey hadn't be killed, if he'd stayed on as crew, would he and Kaylee have become a couple.

simon is my favourite character and he and Kaylee were really cute together at the end of Serenity but I can't help thinking they'd both have needed something else from it.

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Monday, June 25, 2007 11:48 AM

STEAMER


I don't like Jayne.

There. I've said it.

I know other folk love him to pieces, and I know why other folk love him to pieces, but I don't.

I also think River is at least mostly sane since the end of the BDM. Mayhaps she still ain't 100%, but she's a lot better than she was and I think there's potential for her to get better yet, right set of circumstances permitting.

You'd think a compression coil had blown with all the flames that have shot through this thread already, so let me remind all hands, gently but firmly, that just because we're expressing our unpopular opinions doesn't mean they're open to trashing. That ain't the point. Dong le ma?



If not for my
Zoe passion
I'd take you in
A manly fashion
FIREFLY

Captain of the New England Browncoats

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Monday, June 25, 2007 11:58 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


I like Jayne as a character, but I don't really like Jayne. He a good character, but if he were a real person I wouldn't want to be anywhere near him.

(Only flames I threw was when I felt personally insulted. I wouldn't take my opinions about the show being attacked as a personal attack; it's just a way of viewing a show. Yeah, I adore the show, and if anyone said it was a terrible show I would be a little ticked, but seeing things a different way while agreeing that it's a really good show is different.)


Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
A troll's hair is still pointy, even when it's wearing a hat.

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Monday, June 25, 2007 12:26 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by annuette:
I think Kaylee would have become bored by Simon.

I think after the movie it would have been all sex and fun but i just think it would have fizzelled out. I also think Kaylee would have been the one to end the relationship.

I can totally see that! She's got such a crush, and sees Simon as all kinds of shiny because he's a fancy Core doctor... but what if she went past that, got to really know him, and saw that he's just a human being?

Such potential there - and poor Simon, if it came to that! Hero worship collapse can turn into a sad thing...

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Tuesday, June 26, 2007 5:31 AM

SUNLITLAZ


Just a thought, for all those folk that didn't like the River fight scene in Serenity, and that it made her SuperGirl or something. Isn't that precisely what the Alliance did to River? Make her a super badass fighting machine? I thought that was kind of the whole point of all that they put her through, to make her a ... well, SuperGirl. To me, from the prespective of the storyline, it made sense.

I love Jayne as a character, he is quite amusing, but I agree that in person I probably wouldn't trust him. I also agree with a previous poster that he is most likely loyal to Mal.

I liked Wash a whole lot more than Simon. Simon was smart and noble and those were great, but from a fan's perspective, Wash was a great deal more entertaining and fun to watch.

I am new here, but that's my 2c worth, thanks.

---
I'll be in my bunk ...

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Tuesday, June 26, 2007 5:47 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by SunLitLaz:
Just a thought, for all those folk that didn't like the River fight scene in Serenity, and that it made her SuperGirl or something. Isn't that precisely what the Alliance did to River? Make her a super badass fighting machine?

Not only that, but don't forget that she can read minds. I think that's key - she doesn't need muscle mass or hard blows. She knows what her opponent is doing, and can use that against them. Could be quite effective...

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Tuesday, June 26, 2007 6:57 AM

ANNUETTE


Exactly! *grins* Well i'm glad i'm not the only one. :)

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Tuesday, June 26, 2007 7:05 AM

ARCADIA


One more unpopular opinion.

I think it was an utterly stupid move to have Inara flee from Serenity to... a training house? It just doesn't make sense to me when I really think about it. She's leaving Serenity because her feeling of attachment toward the crew, and Mal in particular, are interferring with her work, so she runs to a place where... she doesn't work at all? Really? I really hope that was just a convenience for the movie (both story-wise - it was easier to get things moving this way, and because having a practicing whore might have messed with the rating), and not something that would have been in the show, had it continued.

Arcadia (aka Greyfable and/or Katie)
www.stillflying.net -- picking up Firefly were Joss left off. We will hold 'til he gets back.

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Tuesday, June 26, 2007 8:36 AM

ARGOPELTER


Delurking to reply to two ideas:

First, I agree with Orpheus that the movie was too funny. I actually arrived a little bit late to this party and saw the movie before the series. Although on a personal level I didn't have any trouble with the amount of humor because I was so wrapped up in the fast-paced story, I know people who took the number of jokes as a signal that they weren't supposed to take the film too seriously, and I expect they weren't the only ones. Then, when the film got very serious, some first-time viewers may have been confused and lost their suspension of disbelief. Joss says in the commentary that he removed the "fake grenade" scene because it made the Alliance look bumbling, but I wish he had applied that same line of thought more consistently. The "do you want to run this ship...well, you can't" moment, while very funny, lends itself more to sci-fi parody than anything else.

Second, Annuette mentioned Tracey/Kaylee, and I think that that kind of arc would've had a whole lot more than an episode's worth of material. Simon is not outwardly affectionate, and when Kaylee is presented with someone who is, she gravitates toward him. Kaylee would have to decide if Simon's attractive qualities outweighed his reserved personality, and Simon would have to figure out if he was willing to try to change himself for her. It's a shame the show didn't have the chance to do three or four episodes with Tracey as a crew member and love interest before killing him off.

Lastly, not sure how popular or unpopular this idea is with anyone, but I think the show is a little too Western. Before I saw the series, my one confusion/complaint about the film was basically, "What's the deal with all the Western stuff?" It makes a bit more sense in the context of the series, but even then, I could've done with less.

A

Edit to fix a typo.

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Tuesday, June 26, 2007 9:33 AM

STARTROOP


As far as the "western" aspect was concerned, what I liked about it was the play off of the American Civil War (I am a reenactor and just like it). I liked the old speech patterns and the stoicism. I like the amazing collection of classic firearms they showed (likely culled from the property room of many old movies).

I didn't like it when it went from that to the "Dime Western" motif. I think the time period could be similar, not the same.

My Humble Opinion

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Tuesday, June 26, 2007 9:37 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


I liked the juxtaposition of having an actual Western in space. Star Trek said space was the final frontier. Firefly showed it.


Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
A troll's hair is still pointy, even when it's wearing a hat.

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Tuesday, June 26, 2007 9:38 AM

STARTROOP


One More Thing ;-) I very much liked the character of Kaylee. She reminds me so much of an old girl friend (save the hair color which was auburn) I had my first year of college that I was deeply lost in remember when.

The young lady of my past would have been happy with me dropping out of college and living a carefree life, maybe working on a ranch or in a restuarant. I was a "Computer Geek" in the day when there weren't many and had visions of changing the world.

Watching her and Simon was very real to me. We eventually went our separate ways, though we are still in touch. She had a bunch of kids, three husbands and is now this really cool young gramma.

PS. No, none of them are mine ;-)

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Tuesday, June 26, 2007 9:47 AM

SUNLITLAZ


Quote:

Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
I liked the juxtaposition of having an actual Western in space. Star Trek said space was the final frontier. Firefly showed it.



Precisely, well said! I loved the two worlds coming together!

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Tuesday, June 26, 2007 10:02 AM

LAMBYTOES


Quote:

Originally posted by Starrbaby:
I also *don't* want Mal and Inara to get together . . .ever. The tension between them is too awsome to break. I think if the series continued, and Mal and Inara got thier acts together, that would have been the equivalant of jumping the shark. It would have been down hill ever since.



I agree, I think that Mal and Inara wouldn't have gotten together. I also don't think that Simon and Kaylee should have really gotten together at the end of the movie. His akwardness and her touchyness was just to awsome for me to see them together, with him saying the right things.

Also, I don't think that anyone else on the ship would have gotten married, or have kids. I could have seen Wash and Zoe maybe having kids, but really, having all of the other characters getting together and married, with kids, (which I've seen in many fics) is just to sappy for me. I seriously doubt that those people would find true love, or whatever you want to call it. It's far to predictable, and very un-Joss.

-------------------------
http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket
You're pretty much down to ritual suicide, Lambie toes.

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Tuesday, June 26, 2007 10:08 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Quote:

Originally posted by Lambytoes:
I don't think that anyone else on the ship would have gotten married, or have kids. I could have seen Wash and Zoe maybe having kids, but really, having all of the other characters getting together and married, with kids, (which I've seen in many fics) is just to sappy for me. I seriously doubt that those people would find true love, or whatever you want to call it. It's far to predictable, and very un-Joss.


I agree. I've voiced my annoyance with the sappy, happy, domestic bliss fic writing more than once.

(This site won't display pngs, BTW, and you only need the URL on the boards; the avatar is the only place you need the HTML code.)


Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
A troll's hair is still pointy, even when it's wearing a hat.

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Tuesday, June 26, 2007 10:11 AM

WASHNWEAR


Something I haven't seen mentioned yet: The hologram headstones (or whatever their official designation) in the BDM. I think it's because I - like many others - lived through the last 5 schmaltzed-up minutes of Return of the Jedi...but whatever the reason, the mugging images of our "corpsified" friends just kinda rubbed my rhubarb...

It was like that when we got here!

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Tuesday, June 26, 2007 10:58 AM

NBZ


My unpopular opinion?

"Well if she don't give us some extra flow from the engine room to offset the burnthrough..."

And a few other Alan Tudyk lines (from the series too) were "read" rather than "acted".

Ability-wise, Nathan Fillion and Adam Baldwin are brilliant. Probably the best of the bunch, and a whole lot of other actors.

Morena Played Inara really well IMO. To the comments that she lacked some emotional investment - that is a part of the character. I call it the porcelain doll.

River and Simon's roles were really hard, but well played by Summer Glau and Sean Maher. Gina Torres played a good Zoe. Book was also top notch.

That just leaves Alan Tudyk in a few places... and I know how everyone just loves him.

/hides.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2007 3:57 AM

ARGOPELTER


Quote:

Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
I liked the juxtaposition of having an actual Western in space. Star Trek said space was the final frontier. Firefly showed it.



I know the reason for doing it. Most of the time, I just didn't particularly care for it.

A

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Wednesday, June 27, 2007 4:13 AM

KHYRON


I disliked Book. He annoyed me. I was glad when he died, although I wished he wouldn't have had so much time to give a final sermon before croaking. At some point I was kind of hoping Mal would just strangle him so that he'd stop talking.



Questions are a burden to others. Answers are prison for oneself.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2007 10:08 PM

SHAMELESS


Quote:

Originally posted by RiverDancer:
Christ Almighty, I didn't realize how many browncoats were not only completely superficial, but slaves to media ideals. This is disappointing as hell.



No kidding.

I don't care about money. I care about personality. I'll throw in a quote from "The Last Dancer" by Daniel Keys Moran tomorrow.

Unpopular opinions?

The music in Serenity was so much better than in Firefly.

------------------------------------------
RPG launcher bought in third world country illegally - $10
Landmines - $50 per
Attack/track dogs bred 1st class - $250-500 per
Highpowered assault rifles - $600 per
The look on your face when I show up on your doorstep with a bigfoot - ... Priceless

"You gotta love that the first pirated HD DVD is the one about space pirates who broadcast a video that the government wants to keep secret.

Can't stop the signal."
-reavers_ate_my_dvd

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Thursday, June 28, 2007 12:28 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
BTW #2 - 6string, you have such potential, and then you go on these rants that, I'm sorry to say, make you sound like such an ass. Man - don't do that! I'm so close to thinking you're really cool. Quit getting in the way! (Should I put a kissy emoticon thingy here or a knife in the head? Ah hell - you decide what my tone is.)



Thanks for saying so mal4prez. I must say, with the exception of "you have such potential" & "you're really cool", I think the part of your post directed at me would be more appropriate in the "Popular Opinions" thread.

It was pretty rocky there..... really rocky there for awhile... but me and PR are cool again.

Hey PR.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, June 28, 2007 2:29 AM

ODDSBODSKINS


Lots here I want to respond to, although I'm not sure if I've time (although I may come back and try) so first off I just want to ask if anyone else is really interested in finding out Riverdancer's opinion of them?

Quote:

Originally posted by Orpheus:
My unpopular opinion? You really want it? Alright...

My unpopular opinion: The BDM has too many jokes. It's too funny. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the humor (most of it anyway), but the first half of the film feels like they're trying to shoehorn as much of the show's humor as possible. From the time we meet Mal to the moment Simon starts arguing with him, it's quip-joke-quip-quip-turbulence-gag-joke-Simon. It's always felt like too much to me. I get that Joss had to draw in newcomers and satiate fans at the same time, but I think he overdid the humor.

As much as I hate to say it, the movie doesn't really become "Serenity" to me until Book shuffles loose the mortal coil. Until then, it was just "Firefly: The Movie".

Start the thrashing now.



Might just be me, but I tend to find that stressful situations bring out the best (or frequently worst, as I do enjoy making people laugh at inappropriate things) in my sense of humour. The characters were in high-stress from the get-go, Might be that this is a perfectly in character and reasonable reaction, because I know I'm not the only person on the planet (and imagine I won't have been the only person, 500 years down the line) who gets that way.


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Quote:

Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
And some smile, flirt, and say "Hey, I'm really liking you a lot."

What's so hard about that?



Step into a guys shoes for a little while and you'll have your answer.

What does a man have to do to walk into a room and have every woman in the place want to be with him? He's got to be rich and powerful or influential and definately have a lot of money.

What does a woman have to do to walk into a room and have every man in the room want to be with her? I don't know..... her hair?




Ignoring all that comes after, I just wanted to throw you another POV Jack. Speaking for myself, it's weird little things that attract me to a woman, being smart, funny, good looking, well maybe, but more likely it'll be maybe how the light catches in their eyes, or if they take the piss out of me when I am other people, and other stupid things. It's a bit, well, picky, and I wouldn't want to be the body trying to come against it.


Quote:

Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
I love Heart of Gold.
I kind of love it for maybe unpopular reasons, though.
Actually, another unpopular opinion I might have is that Inara bugs the hell out of me. I never bought the chemistry between Mal and Inara, for one thing, but even if I did I don't like the way they interact. They both act like spineless, brainless juvenilles in the context of their 'relationship', even more so than Simon and Kaylee, who are younger than them! It's irritating as hell, really. And I think the way their relationship would have played out over five or seven years would have been equally irritating. They would have eventually stopped dancing around, said "oh yeah, we really do have something" been completely blissed out for about a week, and then it would all fall apart because Mal would get pissy about Inara's job again, and it would get even more stupid. She would probably leave again, Mal would get all cranky at everyone and act like a sulky, angry teenager, and it all would have been just ridiculous.
Neither of them are teenagers!
But they both act like it in relation to each other, and sometimes that spills over and affects other people!
It's annoying!
I understand that some people find teen angst to be dramatic and entertaining, but I'm not one of them, esspecially when the teen angst is coming from a 20-something and a 30-something. Seriously.



I dunno, Mal for one is pretty emotionally damaged, I mean the guy is all kinds of screwed up, justifiably like, given his past. I think him struggling with that kinda thing comes across as pretty believable. As far as Inara goes, well, it wouldn't be easy to have a thing for someone like Mal, and the way he is would be bound to make a body pretty uneasy. Might be explanations in character for the way they act.

(And see what you drive me to PR? I hate trying to analyse characters like this, much prefer just to take them for what they are, but here you go getting me into their nobbly little fictional heads >.< )




They may think their sins are original, but for the most part they are petty and repetitive.

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Thursday, June 28, 2007 6:05 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Yep, all good. Hi, Jack
Quote:

Originally posted by Oddsbodskins:
here you go getting me into their nobbly little fictional heads >.< )


w00t!


Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
A troll's hair is still pointy, even when it's wearing a hat.

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Thursday, June 28, 2007 6:09 AM

RIVERDANCER


Quote:

Originally posted by Oddsbodskins:
anyone else really interested in finding out Riverdancer's opinion of them?


You are? O_O

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Thursday, June 28, 2007 6:12 AM

ODDSBODSKINS


Glad to please Rose xD

And sure Riverdancer, who doesn't like to hear a relatively unbiased opinion of themselves from time to time?

I'd reply to more bits of the unpopular opinions, but my arms hurt >.< Don't drink, carrying beer and your shopping for a mile home hurts

They may think their sins are original, but for the most part they are petty and repetitive.

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Saturday, June 30, 2007 9:22 AM

PKDECATUR


Firefly should have had more actors who were actually Chinese. It was really a missed opportunity for a cult-popular sci-fi show to have East Asians as main or supporting characters.

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Sunday, July 1, 2007 7:00 AM

JIGMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by PkDecatur:
Firefly should have had more actors who were actually Chinese. It was really a missed opportunity for a cult-popular sci-fi show to have East Asians as main or supporting characters.



I agreee with that, and always have entertained the idea that, had the show gone further, this would have happened.

I do have my own little grievances with one character or another that people would find unpopular but these greivances bcome strengths when I look at not the characters induvidually, but the crew as a whole.

The Reaver fight in Serenity. I loved the fluid movments of the fighting and thought River was spectacular, but (and there always is, is there not?) two things bug me. One: One of the reavers is dressed like Han Solo. My hand to God, I swear this to be true. You look closly at those reavers, and you will see him too. Two: (and more importantly) The reavers who are not fighting River while mostly concealed by shadows and lighting, stand around like ninjas in a bad kung fu movie, waiting for thier turn to get thier ass kicked. I try to tell myself that they are reconsidering the situation (after all, how often do they encounter this kind of resistance from a slip of a girl?) but I have a hard time convincing myself of that.

Okay, that was more of a general complaint than an opinion, so lets try this. Jayne is a PRICK, an a**hole, and I feel people give him way more reverence then he deserves. He is cool, but not good, certainly not noble, and if I met him in the real world I shoot first or be running the other way. When I see an fanfic that turns Jayne into some sort of noble, caring person for the crew, it bugs me on a special level.

-------------------------------------------------
All good things must come to an end.

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Sunday, July 1, 2007 7:33 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jigman:
One of the reavers is dressed like Han Solo. My hand to God, I swear this to be true. You look closly at those reavers, and you will see him too.


I've gone straight through the screenshots of the fight, starting here: http://www.leavemethewhite.com/caps/displayimage.php?album=73&pos=2361 (even lightened a few so I could see more detail) and I'm not seeing it. Can you point me in the right direction?
(By the way, that astonishing grace River has in motion looks very odd in freeze-frame)
Quote:

The reavers who are not fighting River while mostly concealed by shadows and lighting, stand around like ninjas in a bad kung fu movie, waiting for thier turn to get their ass kicked.

I don't think that's true. She's taking on more than one at a time, she's just fast as hell. Several rush her at once and get cut down, which I kinda liked. It's like a wolf pack going after something with a couple blades and lightning fast reflexes; they fail.


Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
A troll's hair is still pointy, even when it's wearing a hat.

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Tuesday, July 3, 2007 6:09 AM

PLATONIST


This is less of an unpopular opinion and more of a medical fact: that VOMITING (River in the BDM) somehow magically erases years of brain damaging psychosis and makes you better.

I know, I know it's another one of Joss' quickie problem solving metaphors.

Vomiting maybe a cure for a nasty hangover, but it obviously doesn't work for River because she goes helpless again, in the following scene, with the Reavers.

And NOW, as suggested at the end of the BDM, she's flying through space as the frackin co-pilot ready to solve the woos of the 'verse. Or wait, that's only in poorly written fanfics.

Overall, I found this progression of empowerment (you go girl, because it's YOUR TURN!) even harder to believe than the ridiculous Reaver fight.



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Tuesday, July 3, 2007 7:08 AM

NBZ


I never "got" that River was "cured" at that point until I read some fanfiction.

The way I saw it was that River was an oddball. She got triggered with some actions and memories. She went worse.

Now that she has got to the bottom of her memories, she is better. "Better" as in returning to that oddball phase, NOT "better" as in reversing brain damage.

I don't think she would be a lone pilot for a long long time. Maybe ever.

Secondly, she would not be automatically promoted into taking part in violence and jobs. There is the issue of control.

A further unpopular opinion is Joss lost some of his confidence and went back to some age old means. "Super Buffy mode" being one of them. (and no, I do not buy that argument about empowerment.)

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Tuesday, July 3, 2007 9:15 AM

PLATONIST


Quote:

Originally posted by nbz:
A further unpopular opinion is Joss lost some of his confidence and went back to some age old means. "Super Buffy mode" being one of them. (and no, I do not buy that argument about empowerment.)



Ain't that the truth. Joss hesitantly admits to this in the movie commentary. I think some of his executives may have voiced the same opinion that fell on his deaf ears. Like... huh, Joss these scenes look way to familiar... ala Buffy verse.

We exit the Firefly door, and re-enter via the Buffy backyard slider. He doesn't accomplish anything by empowering her this way except to confirm (what he doesn't ironically want us to see) that River and the BDHs are existing in two different movies. It is just simply illogical, from a critical viewpoint.

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Tuesday, July 3, 2007 6:50 PM

LEXAN


I don't agree with that at all. Just because Joss made the movie feature a small girl doing the physically impossible, which by the way was entirely relevant, does not mean he was going back Buffy familiarity. The scenes don't particuarly resemble Buffy... River doesn't resemble Buffy. The fighting and that wasn't about empowerment, it was about River and what was pertinent to her story... Think about it...

Also, an opinion that seems to be quite unpopular- River, in terms of personality and character was better in the series. She had so many dimensions and layers. If there was such a thing as a one million+ dimensional character, River would be it. Serenity River was also great but I felt as though some layers weren't present and her dialogue wasn't as brilliant. It tended not to have as much meaning.

I also find River as the pilot at the end of the film very believable and appropriate and a nice call-back to "Objects in Space".

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Tuesday, July 3, 2007 10:59 PM

PLATONIST


Quote:

Originally posted by Lexan:
If there was such a thing as a one million+ dimensional character, River would be it.

And that's the best argument why a wider viewing audience did NOT receive River’s character well as a main character, in the BDM. They didn't know what to make of her.

She's too indefinable, almost alien (Joss' description) Viewers couldn't relate to her on a human level because she became too omnipotent. She's instantly reading minds. Does telepathy even work that fast? She's warning Mal, Zoe, and Jayne on the heist. She's kicking ass in the Maidenhead. If someone died shouldn't she be held accountable? Oh, that's right she was triggered, because we all succumb to subliminal behavioral messages . Heck, I want a cheeseburger right now.

She's witty and clever too. She looks for patterns in sand and tries to count the tiny pieces, but can only do it if you drive slower. God, I was so glad they cut that! Jayne's "bad guy" line is way cooler!

And then suddenly she's asleep (unfortunately about the same time my Grande Cadillac Margarita buzz was wearing off) and now she's chained, and crying, screaming, and suicidal (If no one else steps up, I'll volunteer to carry the bullet)

And then she escapes, convinces Mal, shares her awful thoughts, good characters die along the way (ones we really like), and she screams some more. She fights hundreds of horrible flesh eating Reavers, by herself, without receiving a scratch. Not one of them thought to put a bullet to her like they did her brother? Hey, What happened to the poison dart guy? Is he not that skilled?

And then we get to the end...she's not cured, but better, and is Serenity's new co-pilot, because ya know, she's a ship too. HUH??

And the only question anyone asks at this point is: Do you think Mal and Inara have a chance?

Unpopular opinions, oh yeah




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Wednesday, July 4, 2007 12:51 AM

LEXAN


You speak the truth; The majority of the audience doesn't understand River much at all. This is why I think Joss simplified her character a little for the movie. However, when Joss is really going by what he believes the story needs, (I assume) he doesn't take what the audience will understand into much consideration. Nevertheless, he might have for this movie. Clearly it wasn't enough for some people but it was enough for me to notice there was something missing. This was the only problem I had Serenity.

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Wednesday, July 4, 2007 4:04 AM

EMMARIGBY


Quote:

I don't think that anyone else on the ship would have gotten married, or have kids. I could have seen Wash and Zoe maybe having kids, but really, having all of the other characters getting together and married, with kids, (which I've seen in many fics) is just to sappy for me. I seriously doubt that those people would find true love, or whatever you want to call it. It's far to predictable, and very un-Joss.


Well I didn't think I had that many unpopular opinions when it came to Firefly, but after reading this thread then maybe I do.

I personally think it would have been GREAT if Zoe had got pregnant. I agree that it would be nigh on impossible to raise a kid in that environment and that is exactly why I think it would have made for such good TV. This is the only time we see Zoe express an opinion that wasn't complete common sense. Makes her more falible. I could see her going behind Wash's back and getting pregnant when he was against the idea (yet more tension). I would have enjoyed her struggles with the decision of whether to leave the ship or let someone else raise the kid, or even how she would have coped with loosing it.

Does all this make me a very bad and cruel person?! Face it, anguish makes for gripping storylines! Pile it on, I say!

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Friday, October 26, 2007 1:15 PM

WYTCHCROFT


stumbled into the arms of this strange and outrageous thread...

my most often held (but i sometimes drop it) unpopular opinion is that Simon MAY not have told (or allowed us to see) the truth about what happened to River - and why she's in a fracking box!

i sometimes believe he was complicit in her 'going to the academy'

and that he was lying about the brain scan in ariel...

none of which necessarily lessons his very real love for river - it just adds guilt to the mix...

Quote:

Originally posted by annuette:
I think Kaylee would have become bored by Simon.

I think after the movie it would have been all sex and fun but i just think it would have fizzelled out.



well i agree completely except for the fun part!

Quote:

I also think Kaylee would have been the one to end the relationship.



Simon wouldn't know how!
Simon has way too much invested in River for the relationship with Kaylee to work long term...



and now to quote my favourite robot Bender - "cheese it!"

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Friday, October 26, 2007 3:31 PM

MERRYK


Thanks for bumping this, Wytchcroft. Unfortunately, I am one of those people who gets involved in a fandom (doesn't matter which one) and suddenly finds out that all his/her opinions are considered very unpopular. For example:

The music in Serenity is more moving than the Firefly music. Firefly music is atmospheric, and occasionally gorgeous. Serenity music gets to the soul of the story as well as keeping to the tone.

None of the "popular" continuity errors in the BDM were actually continuity errors.

Simon never said he wasn't personally involved in the rescue, and he was not] badass in it...he was reserved in personality, and managed to pull a needle out of River's head, open a window, and climb on a little platform, looking very conspicuous all the while. He was more badass when jumping off a catwalk onto Dobson or jumping on Early with a thigh wound. Punching Mal was a result of desperation and character development, not character switch.

Mal has never been good with dates, so his "eight months" quote is entirely within character. Mal is not suddenly not considering Simon and River as not-quite-crew because the plot demands it, it's just that things have gotten really tough and he's giving a lot of bark to Simon 'cause he can't bring himself to actually give them up, because in his heart, as he shows in the BDM, they really are part of his family now, as he said in the series. It's all talk with Mal.

River is not any better by the end of the BDM...she's still a schizophrenic, just a slightly less traumatized one who knows her abilities.

Simon and Kaylee would not live happily ever after, nor would their relationship fizz out. They both seem to have enough maturity that eventually, after a long and frustrating semi-courtship, would lead them together, because Kaylee values the respect and devotion Simon shows to her, and Simon values the brightness and affection that Kaylee shows to him. Simon only messes up under stress, and once the first kiss is out of the way, he'll put his foot in his mouth much less. (Objects in Space, anyone?) Once Kaylee starts hearing more of relaxed Simon, she'll be able to take his occasional messups much better. I've seen many marriages work with even more imperfect and downright clashing people, so there's got to be hope for Simon and Kaylee.

I don't like Mal. At all. I see his good side, but it just doesn't work for me. He's often more clueless than Simon, and reacts violently and illogically to most circumstances.

Inara is best when she's dealing with Simon and Kaylee and River...every other encounter, I wonder why people like her.

I didn't mind that Wash died. He was funny and interesting, but not that much.

I don't like Our Mrs. Reynolds or Out of Gas. They are well written, from a purely stylistic point of view, but I don't enjoy them.

Safe and Objects in Space, on the other hand, never fail to really move me and ring true.

I don't see River and Jayne getting together as a romantic couple, but I heartily support them having a relationship on par with Mal and Zoe's. I don't think Jayne or River could have a healthy romantic relationship with anyone at all, actually.

My ideal sequel to Serenity has Simon and Zoe dying, with Kaylee and Inara dying in the last movie of the trilogy. There's a lot more to my opinion on sequels than that and why I think it would be ideal, but that's an idea for another thread.

Inara and Book were deadweight on the show...they could have been more, but they never were.

The Train Job has painfully pathetic dialogue, and I hesitate to include it as canon sometimes.

The Message should be considered the last episode...it's the only way the series makes sense character-development-wise.

Jayne's interesting in the series and movie, but 95% of fics make him too soft and therefore not interesting anymore. Likewise most fics make Simon either too wussy/dumb/inarticulate or too articulate and...perfect.

Neither Simon nor Kaylee nor Wash need to learn how to fight. There's a place in the world for noncombatants, a much bigger place than for soliders, and I don't see why most Browncoats seem to think that Simon at least needs to kill. He's more scary with his non lethal tactics, IMO.

Kaylee is manipulative and pretty much self-seeking.

Mal and Inara could never get together for anything longer than one day.

Mr. Universe is totally someone the Firefly crew would know.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Friday, October 26, 2007 10:54 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Thanks for bumping this thread.
I didn't know it was unpopular, but I don't consider River to be insane. Because of her vast IQ, few of us or the cast should be able to fully understand her. When she focuses her language talents upon us normals, then she can generally convey the point she wants, like when she talks to Badger in Shindig. Otherwise she doesn't speak untruths, other than that Book's hair thing in Jaynestown.

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Saturday, October 27, 2007 2:08 AM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by redhead:
Oooh everyone is so brave! Do you all feel better for getting that off your chests? (Strokes chin thoughtfully)

Seriously though, I couldn't stand the River and the Reaver scene in Serenity. She's drug backwards through the doorway by her feet. I'm a black belt and with that many (20 something?) Reavers there is no way she gets up. AND then the Damn door opens while she is standing there (looking very cool, I'll give you that). AND who the heck opened the door? It's only supposed to open from the outside and River's hands are full. What she does Telekinesis, too?

My vote is River should have died! And don't get me wrong, I think Summer is an awesome actress and I loved the fragile girl coming to life in the series but I loved the series BECAUSE it was about people. I didn't want Super girl.

There I have Jayne to protect me (or at least one of the Ninja Turtles) so no one can flame me too bad!




I never thought I would live to see the day I would agree with anyone who dares diss Firefly/Serenity. But, in earnest, I have to agree with you on the River-Reaver scene. It weren't exactly my thing, either. Too action figure like. Out of character, really; and done for marketing reasons, no doubt, so they could stick her on that Serenity poster as the bad-ass killer girl. Ugh. Dressed her up like a gorram doll!


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Saturday, October 27, 2007 4:46 AM

MERRYK


I sort of agree...I liked the scene the first time I saw it, just because of the emotional impact I felt when I saw her taken by the Reavers. I did like her fight scene. But they held it just a little too long, and she was just a little too posed.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Saturday, October 27, 2007 6:29 AM

JARHEAD


Quote:

Originally posted by MerryK:

The music in Serenity is more moving than the Firefly music. Firefly music is atmospheric, and occasionally gorgeous. Serenity music gets to the soul of the story as well as keeping to the tone.




Applause

Quote:

Originally posted by MerryK:

None of the "popular" continuity errors in the BDM were actually continuity errors.



Yep.

Quote:

Originally posted by MerryK:

Mal has never been good with dates, so his "eight months" quote is entirely within character. Mal is not suddenly not considering Simon and River as not-quite-crew because the plot demands it, it's just that things have gotten really tough and he's giving a lot of bark to Simon 'cause he can't bring himself to actually give them up, because in his heart, as he shows in the BDM, they really are part of his family now, as he said in the series. It's all talk with Mal.



I don't believe that it's all talk. I always saw that as the natural result of him and Simon butting heads without Inara there to distract him from it.

Quote:

Originally posted by MerryK:

River is not any better by the end of the BDM...she's still a schizophrenic, just a slightly less traumatized one who knows her abilities.



Simply remembering something would not cure her.

Quote:

Originally posted by MerryK:

Simon and Kaylee would not live happily ever after, nor would their relationship fizz out. They both seem to have enough maturity that eventually, after a long and frustrating semi-courtship, would lead them together, because Kaylee values the respect and devotion Simon shows to her, and Simon values the brightness and affection that Kaylee shows to him. Simon only messes up under stress, and once the first kiss is out of the way, he'll put his foot in his mouth much less. (Objects in Space, anyone?) Once Kaylee starts hearing more of relaxed Simon, she'll be able to take his occasional messups much better. I've seen many marriages work with even more imperfect and downright clashing people, so there's got to be hope for Simon and Kaylee.



Battin' a thousand.

Quote:

Originally posted by MerryK:

I don't like Mal. At all. I see his good side, but it just doesn't work for me. He's often more clueless than Simon, and reacts violently and illogically to most circumstances.



Well, every streak has to end sometime:)

Quote:

Originally posted by MerryK:

I don't like Our Mrs. Reynolds or Out of Gas. They are well written, from a purely stylistic point of view, but I don't enjoy them.



Out of Gas is my favorite episode of the show.

Quote:

Originally posted by MerryK:

I don't see River and Jayne getting together as a romantic couple, but I heartily support them having a relationship on par with Mal and Zoe's. I don't think Jayne or River could have a healthy romantic relationship with anyone at all, actually.



After Serenity, this became the definite path for these two. The Merc and his wacky pal the Pyscho - hours of fun right there:)

Quote:

Originally posted by MerryK:

Neither Simon nor Kaylee nor Wash need to learn how to fight. There's a place in the world for noncombatants, a much bigger place than for soliders, and I don't see why most Browncoats seem to think that Simon at least needs to kill. He's more scary with his non lethal tactics, IMO.



Fun little fact - it takes roughly nine people in non-combat jobs to keep one US combat troop going. That's as efficient as the Marine Corps has managed, and we do more with less better than anybody.

Quote:

Originally posted by MerryK:

Mr. Universe is totally someone the Firefly crew would know.



Let's see - illegal super hacker, has own spaceport, and why bother to continue? Yeah, they'd know the guy.

Now for my contribution to the unpopular opinions:

Joss is over-rated. He's great at universe/character creating, and jokes, but the day to day stuff needs to be done by somebody else, and two-thirds of the way through the show he needs to just leave entirely.



I’m never serious. Serious means something bad is about to happen.

98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature

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Saturday, October 27, 2007 6:38 AM

MERRYK


Quote:

After Serenity, this became the definite path for these two. The Merc and his wacky pal the Pyscho - hours of fun right there:)


LOL! Yes, that strikes home to me...I can't see it any other way.

Quote:

Fun little fact - it takes roughly nine people in non-combat jobs to keep one US combat troop going. That's as efficient as the Marine Corps has managed, and we do more with less better than anybody.


I agree...and also found it rather amusing/frustrating that in a fairly PC show (what with the feminism and corrupt government), we still had macho men as the heroes.

Nice to know I'm not entirely alone in all my opinions, Jarhead. :-)

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Saturday, October 27, 2007 7:44 AM

JARHEAD


Quote:

Originally posted by MerryK:
Quote:



I agree...and also found it rather amusing/frustrating that in a fairly PC show (what with the feminism and corrupt government), we still had macho men as the heroes.

Nice to know I'm not entirely alone in all my opinions, Jarhead. :-)




Not entirely alone, no. As to the macho hero-type men the only thing I can say to that is that particular storytelling device still delivers on the crowd pleasing front, hence the reliance on it.

Oh and Our Mrs. Reyonds was fun, but not more than that. Trash was by far a better episode on all counts, especially at the end when Inara locked Saffron in the waste bin and delivered the prize, just as her and Mal had planned.



I’m never serious. Serious means something bad is about to happen.

98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature

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Saturday, October 27, 2007 2:39 PM

REGINAROADIE


To the guy that said Joss is over-rated, I agree with you. Yes, he's great at creating characters and universes and jokes, but at the same time he does have flaws as a writer. While I like the strong female slant that's in his work, at times it gets really preachy. Women are strong and don't need men to take care of them. We get it, move on. We don't need feminist rhetoric every third line of the script. And with every father character more villainous or perceived villanous than all the monsters the Hellmouth spits out put together, it's obvious he's airing his psychological laundry out to dry, which is not appealing at all. Scripts aren't supposed to be therapy sessions. And if you are an atheist and don't believe in God, then why do you reference gods and heaven and hell dimensions in BUFFY and ANGEL. Plus, killing off characters is something that should be done sparingly. I look at THE SOPRANOS as a fine example of show that knows how to kill off characters. The way Joss does it in killing off popular characters and keeping around annoying ones is a little hackish.

But I've never considered the "day to day life" angle until now, and you're right. I think the closest thing Joss has done in terms of reality, in terms of actual people in real life that isn't surrounded by demons and spaceships is the two episodes of THE OFFICE he's directed, and that's more to do with the great team that Greg Daniels has put together. And while Joss did a great job with "Business School" and hopefully "Branch Wars" next week, I think he'd go into aniphalactic shock if he had to do something outside the sci-fi/fantasy/comic book genre. He's not like, say, Alan Ball, whose SIX FEET UNDER basically took "The Body" and stretched it out over five seasons and is a show I can personally identify with more than anything Joss has done.

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"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."

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Saturday, October 27, 2007 2:54 PM

NBZ


My ((an)other) unpopular opinion: I don't see Jayne and River getting along. Ever.

Yes, Rayne is totally out of the window for me, but I can not see any future "brotherly", "comradely" or any other (positive) connections either. They all feel *very* out of character to me.

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Saturday, October 27, 2007 11:45 PM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
YesIthinkKayleeisocasionallyirritatingandwhinyandkindofahornyschoolgirltypewhowouldgoafteranymanprettyandintriguingenough
andthatJewelhadwaymoreoffdaysthantherestofthecastwhichmadethewhinyworseandthecharacterlessbelievable

Don't hurt me




No one's hurting folk today, on account of unpopular words being on-topic here. :)

I wanna say something about the whole "kindofahornyschoolgirltype" thingy, though, because I feel Kaylee's character is often misunderstood in that regard. *goes to dig up an older post*

I've seen folks shocked when they first learnt of Bester's "Prairie Harpie". But I say Kaylee is the near epitome of a psychologically healthy person. When it comes to sexuality, she's got no noticable hang-ups of any kind; she's neither uptight about it, nor overly obsessed with it: she neither fears the flesh, nor allows it to devour her. Sexuality just naturally flows from her innocence, rather than from anything else.

Kaylee is fairly open about sex, too ("Have good sex!"). Not because she's loose, but because she sees no harm in the mention of it (again attesting to her innocence). To her, sex is a not the harmful, creepifying elephant in the room that needs careful tiptoeing around. Kaylee has managed to integrate sexuality to a rarely attained level of normalcy.




--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Sunday, October 28, 2007 2:43 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by MerryK:
I agree...and also found it rather amusing/frustrating that in a fairly PC show (what with the feminism and corrupt government), we still had macho men as the heroes.



Except the time Zoe saved Tracy's ass. And the time that Zoe went back into Niska's skyplex to save Mal. Not to mention that it always Zoe that Mal takes on jobs (instead of, say, Wash or Simon) because she's a better fighter than the two of them put together. Come now. Macho men as the heroes? The main hero may be Mal, but that doesn't mean that all the men are tough-as-nails and all the women are shrinking violets. Heck, Wash frequently jokes about his lack of involvement in combat ("I was going to watch. It was very exciting."). I think that the badass-ness goes according to character in this one, not by gender. Else Zoe's one damn fine looking man!

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Sunday, October 28, 2007 4:34 AM

FOLLOWMAL


Quote:

Originally posted by asarian:
I wanna say something about the whole "kindofahornyschoolgirltype" thingy, though, because I feel Kaylee's character is often misunderstood in that regard. *goes to dig up an older post*

I've seen folks shocked when they first learnt of Bester's "Prairie Harpie". But I say Kaylee is the near epitome of a psychologically healthy person. When it comes to sexuality, she's got no noticable hang-ups of any kind; she's neither uptight about it, nor overly obsessed with it: she neither fears the flesh, nor allows it to devour her. Sexuality just naturally flows from her innocence, rather than from anything else.

Kaylee is fairly open about sex, too ("Have good sex!"). Not because she's loose, but because she sees no harm in the mention of it (again attesting to her innocence). To her, sex is a not the harmful, creepifying elephant in the room that needs careful tiptoeing around. Kaylee has managed to integrate sexuality to a rarely attained level of normalcy.



I agree with all of this and I think her character is a counter poise to Inara. Although Inara's job entails her having sex with clients and therefore by definition you'd think that she'd be the one with no hang ups about sex... uh uh, it's the opposite. She's very schooled and disciplined because she's been trained, but IMHO Inara isn't sure this is really what she wants to be doing.

While Kaylee delights in life and sex and most things. Purely. No hesitation or hang ups on her part.



http://amazon.com/Serenity-Collectors-Nathan-Fillion/dp/B000Q9IZ5C

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Sunday, October 28, 2007 4:36 AM

FOLLOWMAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
Except the time Zoe saved Tracy's ass. And the time that Zoe went back into Niska's skyplex to save Mal. Not to mention that it always Zoe that Mal takes on jobs (instead of, say, Wash or Simon) because she's a better fighter than the two of them put together. Come now. Macho men as the heroes? The main hero may be Mal, but that doesn't mean that all the men are tough-as-nails and all the women are shrinking violets. Heck, Wash frequently jokes about his lack of involvement in combat ("I was going to watch. It was very exciting."). I think that the badass-ness goes according to character in this one, not by gender. Else Zoe's one damn fine looking man!



Well spoken! And LMAO!



http://amazon.com/Serenity-Collectors-Nathan-Fillion/dp/B000Q9IZ5C

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Sunday, October 28, 2007 5:26 AM

MERRYK


I don't disagree with any particular point, Causal...you misunderstood me. Joss has said that Firefly is Mal's show—he is the one that is portrayed as the most heroic, the one we should be admiring and caring about. We can like the other characters as well, but it is Mal whom the focus is almost always on. In fact, most scenes are played so that we are supposed to sympathize with him, even when if you look at it logically he is being quite ridiculous. And Mal is macho. The non macho men are poked fun at quite regularly for their peacefulness, through Joss in self-deprecating humor or by the other characters. Jayne is occasionally made fun of because he jumps at any opportunity to fight, and sometimes Inara or Zoe pokes fun at Mal's impulsiveness/recklessness, but the tone is always more in favor of a little recklessness rather than avoiding conflict. All the characters are portrayed in a more admirable light when they pick up arms, whether in lighting, framing, or music.

And your point about Zoe? Just adds to my point...why do we look up to her more than Kaylee, who has equal if not more talents, but in a peaceful area? Because Zoe is a soldier, and that is who the show portrays as admirable. That is what I object to, the constant glorification of war and combat. When will we get our non-combatant hero?

Oh, and I never said that the women were shrinking violets...when I said macho men, I was comparing Mal to Wash and Simon, not the women at all. "Macho people as heroes" would have been a more accurate representation of my opinion.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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